Just realized what it is about TCOT that throws me

[bosk1]

First off, just to disspell any misconceptions, I think this is a good song.  I love quite a bit of what is going on with the music.  I love the lyrics.  I love the melodies.  All of that is brilliant. 

But I've always felt that the song just lacks as a whole because the volume swell part at the middle of the song, while cool, completely sucks the momentum out of the song as a whole and kills it for me.  I was thinking about this, and it hit me how interesting and experimental the song structure is.  I could be wrong, but it almost seems like the band deliberately chose to experiment by taking things out of order just a bit.  I don't want to get TOO deep and detailed, but let's analyze it a bit.  We start off with a mellow accoustic section.  Then the song starts to build.  And for a DT epic, it builds fairly quickly into perhaps its most intense section, which then immediately gives way to the mellow, ambient section that sets up some of the song's major themes in JP's volume swells, then finally into yet another section that begins with some accoustic parts that slowly build up to the song's conclusion.  The interesting thing is that while the major lyrical climax is with the revelation at the end of the song, the music TRIES to also climax, but doesn't quite get there because the most intense, climactic part of the song, musically, already happened WAY earlier just before the volume swell portion.

Contrast this with Octavarium.  Octavarium starts with the ambient section that sets up some major themes, and then gradually builds and builds and builds very steadily.  It is very linear in its buildup.  And while some might say the most intense part of the song is Intervals, building up to James' scream, the last section of the song is equally, and perhaps even more, climactic, but just in a completely different way. 

TCOT doesn't do what Octavarium does.  Again, it seems like it was structured deliberately to avoid the traditional formula and trying to see what happens when you shuffle it around.  I applaud the experimentation behind that approach if that is what was going on.  The only problem is that, again, the instrumental section kills the momentum, and while the ending section does have a nice build and a nice, soaring ending, it is so overshadowed in intensity by the first half of the song that it just feels like the most exciting parts are in the rearview mirror by the time you get there. 

Anyhow, not sure this means anything whatsoever, but I thought I'd share my observations.  Thoughts?

[reneranucci]

I think that section is awesome, and it adds a completly new and cool dimension to the song. I'm not bothered about the momemtun because there's enough time at the end to recover it.

[JPX]

It seems like a pretty traditional structure to me.

intro - verse - chorus - verse - chorus - interude - outro

I really like the section in question and it was probably just a result of Mike requesting a Pink Floyd section during Inspiration Corner.

[tri.ad]

I think that section is awesome, and it adds a completly new and cool dimension to the song. I'm not bothered about the momemtun because there's enough time at the end to recover it.

Exactly this. The section is fine as it is.

[lithium112]

The way I've always perceived the music in conjunction with the lyrics is:

- An accumulation of fear and anxiety leading up to and culminating in JP's solo just before the volume swell section.
- The volume swell section - a moment of uncertainty and mystery
- The conclusion - revelation of the Count's true nature

Just as the protagonist's fear reaches a climax, he experiences this moment of ethereal mystery. Maybe his life is flashing before his eyes while his mind is stunned by the injustice of his predicament.

And while the following is clearly a matter of personal preference, I've thought that the length of the conclusion provides enough room for a climactic build-up (it's about 5 minutes long).

[bosk1]

I think that section is awesome, and it adds a completly new and cool dimension to the song. I'm not bothered about the momemtun because there's enough time at the end to recover it.

Yes, there is enought time to recover it.  But the problem is, the song doesn't recover it.  That's really the conclusion I was drawing from the above.  All those parts are cool, but to me, how they are assembled and arranged really doesn't allow the song to finish on a satisfying note. 

[m0hawk]

while the ending section does have a nice build and a nice, soaring ending, it is so overshadowed in intensity by the first half of the song that it just feels like the most exciting parts are in the rearview mirror by the time you get there.  

This is exactly why, in my opinion, the guitar solo in the middle of TCOT before the volume swell is the climax of the album, while the final "Could this be the end" is the climax of the song. I'm not sure if anyone else feels the same, but to me, it makes sense, seeing as that dark guitar solo sounds quite similar to A Nightmare to Remember's main continuum riff. Which is why I feel that TCOT and ANTR are linked, even if it's just that one section that is linked. TCOT basically has 2 climaxes: where the protagonist comes face to face with terror (the middle guitar solo) and that final, hopeful "Woooaaah" section by James where he realises that it is NOT the end.

When you think about it, ACOS too "suffers" from the same problem: the "I'm sick of all you hypocrites" section is quite climatic, making that final climax somewhat overshadowed by its predecessor. And yet, it works.

EDIT: After reading the posts in this topic, I'm reminded of how much better TCOT is than ACOS. Lyrically, ACOS wins by far, with a whole half TCOT being a joke lyrically. Musically, however, TCOT does what ACOS doesn't really do for me; it makes you feel. That absolute dread during the middle guitar solo, the peaceful, almost tragic look into the character's mind during the volume swells, and finally the hope that he ecstasy that he feels at the very end. The same can't be said for ACOS; I wish that finale had me emotionally involved as much as the great lyrics could have created.

[lithium112]

It seems like a pretty traditional structure to me.

intro - verse - chorus - verse - chorus - interude - outro

I'm sorry, but this is oversimplifying the song to the point of absurdity. The intro itself consists of 5 different parts. There are also two distinct verse sections (verse and prechorus?). The interlude includes a solo, as well as another completely different section and the "outro" could easily be a song by itself. Not to mention the instrumental sections intertwined with the verses and choruses.

[Sixtease]

Great point about ACOS, m0hawk!

[chrisbDTM]

i think the volume swell section saves the song and puts it back in the right direction. though i do like the 'james favorite section' instrumental part right before the swells

[TheGreatPretender]

When you think about it, ACOS too "suffers" from the same problem: the "I'm sick of all you hypocrites" section is quite climatic, making that final climax somewhat overshadowed by its predecessor. And yet, it works.

Not really. As much as I love Change of Seasons, the momentum really does slow down big time toward the end, and it makes the last part drag on a little bit. Like I said, it's a minor issue, I still love it.
But frankly, I like the Count of Tuscany ending better than A Change of Seasons ending.

[RuRoRul]

I think people are right about the buildup of fear followed by moment of refelction, then the revelation of the ending. I honestly can't understand someone listening to the ending of The Count Of Tuscany and thinking that it doesn't reach a satisfying conclusion though - that is one of the greatest endings to any DT song in my opinion.

I like all sections of the song but the volume swell part is probably my least favourite, while the intro and ending are easily the best. I can understand someone thinking it kills the momentum, but I definitely don't get thinking that this is the climax and that the actual ending "doesn't quite climax" when it is, in fact, orgasmic.

[7thHanyou]

I always thought the swell served to strengthen the song as a whole and give it a unique atmosphere.  I haven't heard TCoT nearly as much as Octavarium, but from my recollection, it's musically exceptionally strong.

I think of TCoT as a consistent buildup, so I suppose it's different than Octavarium.  Octavarium doesn't really build to anything but a unified vision, in spite of the increasing heaviness of the song and swell at the ending.  I'm not waiting for a payoff.  In TCoT, I am, which I think justifies the song structure and execution.

Unfortunately, the lyrics and story keep me from taking the song as seriously as I'd like to, but I have no complaints about the music.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

I don't think Tuscany would as good as it is without that section. It actually serves the purpose of preparing the big climatic ending.

[Xanthul]

I never considered the portion before the volume swells as the climax of the song, for me it's like this:

- Mellow intro: hell yeah give me some of this
- Heavy parts and choruses: man when do we get to the volume swells
- Volume swells: salivating like Homer with a doughnut
- Acoustic buildup: I get the chills - seriously, I love this part
- Outro: I always get very sad at this section, don't know why but it affects me.

So for me, the intro is a great build-up and then I have a pretty "flat" section followed by the swells which are exciting on their own but also get me prepared for the acoustic part and the climax which is "the count of Tuscanyyyyyyyeaahooooooh". After all that I get a nice outro to ride the wave of excitement down. If it weren't for the middle section which I'm not too fond of, it would be my clear-cut fourth favorite DT song.

[KevShmev]

I don't think Tuscany would as good as it is without that section. It actually serves the purpose of preparing the big climatic ending.

Agreed.  The structure of this song is perfect. 

Plus, it is really nice to have a DT epic with a long instrumental section in the middle of the song that has not a second of wanking.  While very different, it reminds me of Learning to Live's instrumental section, which is also mellow and laid back and does a tremendous job of building to the fantastic ending.

[darkshade]

This thread inspired me to BLAST this song in my room, it's sooooo awesome!!! I never had any problem with the structure; it was the only song when the album came out that I thought was pure genius on first listen, and still do.

[bosk1]

Let me try to put this another way.  I realize that in many ways, the structure of the song makes sense.  But viewed strictly in terms of intensity level and intensity level only, it is very odd and stands in stark contrast to a lot of other songs.  Again, taking Octavarium as an example, let's do a cursory analysis.  Let's set up a scale of 1 to 10 for intensity.  This isn't saying that anything in the song is "good" or "bad," but just that 1 is the least intense moment of the song and 10 is the most intense.  Octavarium basically goes 1>2>3>4>5>6>7>8>9>10>9>10 in terms of intensity (the first 10 being the end of Intervals, with a slight dip and then re-rising in intensity).  I would say TCOT has a completely different buildup that feels something like 3>4>5>6>7>8>9>10 before the interlude, and then the interlude being the 1>2 in terms of the song's intensity level, with the section after the interlude doing something like 3>5>7.  So what I'm saying is that while sections of the song have very linear buildups in terms of intensity, the song overall feels imbalanced in that regard because it has a very linear buildup, then the least intense part of the song, and then another linear buildup that doesn't build up nearly as much.  Does that make sense?

Not that any of the above is necessarily a "bad" thing.  I'm just saying that it throws me and leaves me personally not raing the song as highly as others that don't have such a weird intensity imbalance.

[TheGreatPretender]

Well, how would you measure A Change of Seasons on that intensity scale?

[bosk1]

All over the place.   

[TheGreatPretender]

All over the place.   

In terms of numbers, I mean. Like I said, I thought that after "Another World", A Change Of Seasons kind of goes downhill from there. And while it still maintains a modern amount of interest, it's still not as exciting as that center part, which makes it drag just a little.
I think the problem too, is that Another World sounds a lot like a conclusion. It just starts off all quiet right after a big crazy instrumental breakdown, and even though it builds, musically the song itself would easily end with, "Now it's time for them to deal with me!"

[KevShmev]

bosk1, I get what you mean, but I don't think it matters that much, at least to me, and probably a not a lot of others.  Heck, one of the most popular prog rock pieces of all-time is the Yes classic, The Gates of Delirium, and that song is intense most of the way through, before finally building to a final five minutes plus which is very mellow, yet completely awesome.  There is no one set way of writing a great long song.

[TheGreatPretender]

bosk1, I get what you mean, but I don't think it matters that much, at least to me, and probably a not a lot of others.  Heck, one of the most popular prog rock pieces of all-time is the Yes classic, The Gates of Delirium, and that song in intense most of the way through, before finally building to a final five minutes plus which is very mellow, yet completely awesome.  There is no one set way of writing a great long song.

Well, it also keeps it from being too overwhelming. If you go intense all the way through, sometimes you can overwhelm and numb the senses. It's like action movies, after a big, crazy action sequence, you need to slow and quiet things down to give the listener a break. Except in the case of music that break can still result in a beautiful and mellow piese.

[bosk1]

bosk1, I get what you mean, but I don't think it matters that much, at least to me, and probably a not a lot of others.  Heck, one of the most popular prog rock pieces of all-time is the Yes classic, The Gates of Delirium, and that song is intense most of the way through, before finally building to a final five minutes plus which is very mellow, yet completely awesome.  There is no one set way of writing a great long song.

I'm not saying there is a correct or incorrect way.  I'm just saying that since it has that very linear buildup feel, it just feels weird that it suddenly deviates from that and ends in a significantly less intense way.  Most people like it, so great for them.  But again, I'm just saying why it feels odd to me.

[Guitalguy]

I think that if any of the DT guys read any of this, they'd be surprised on how much actually can over-analyze a song. But as the DT-geek I am, I'm gonna join the discussion.

The song has a different structure than Octavarium, obviously. The mellow intro, the slight build-up, the solos building up to the verses, the choruses, the solos, and the breakdown synth section that seems to get a lot of attention. I personally first thought this boring, and that it ruined the image the song had built up to that point. But now I simply love it, and love the way it builds up, and starts playing the vocals melody of the acoustic section, on synth. I especially like those "dripping" sounds in the background. So tender and smooth, such a little thing, but it really does it to me.

Then there's the acoustic section, which I really love. And i really love the way it builds up to the climax the way from here. The "climax" to me is when the guitar start doing the intro solo an octave higher, and James starts doing the "whooooo--ho-hoooo" thing.

I see what you (bosk1) mean with that the climax doesn't overcome the previous sections, but I really don't see the problem. You can sort of split the song in two, before and after the synth breakdown. And I really love both parts. Plus they kinda fit together, haha. It's not the same as Octavarium, which kind of builds up all the way, and ends in a state of ecstatic relaxation, if you can put it that way, with The Razor's Edge-part. The post-breakdown-section on TCOT more seems to "cool things down" in a really good way, starts off cool and gentle, and then makes it to a little highlight at the end.

TCOT are one of my favorite DT-songs, and I really hope they'll add at least one close to as long for ADTOE. I seem to fall in love with all their epics, they seem to sum up all the reasons I love DT in one single song. And I guess it doesn't get better than that.

[ReaPsTA]

Bosk, I know this will shock you, but I disagree!  Teeheehee

Um, but more seriously.  Basically you feel that the TCOT instrumental section linearly builds upward to the ambient solo.  I would say that the most intense part of that section is 9:23 - 9:41.  The next thing (with the multi-time signature groove) is actually kinda chill and builds downwards in comparison.  Then the guitar solo before the ambient section has a major sense of resolution and finality to it.

I would say that the ambient solo requires a major amount of listener commitment, it doesn't really do much to hold your interest.  But it's so rewarding to pay attention to.  Especially live.  And then everything after it is really good.  This is one of those cases where on the album yeah it's a bit subdued, but live it's a huge chill moment.

[j]

The "intense" verses and chorus and pre-ambient instrumental stuff are the weak part of the song, and I've never thought that they feel like the "musical climax" or anything.  The ending is one of the best and most satisfying endings DT have written, period.

-J

[erik16]

The thing that I like about the ambient/mellow guitar part is that towards the end it quotes some vocal melodies from the outro (please don't be afraid, I would never try to hurt you).

I also like the instrumental section because it's wanky but not too wanky by DT standards. Also it has no tradeoffs but instead a nice unison with some audible JMX bass underneath.

[King Postwhore]

What I love about the part is it lulls me and then the buildup with the acoustic guitar and the singing to the crescendo of the solo and the keys brings everything together for me.  I like the build up.

[Jamesman42]

I think that section is awesome, and it adds a completly new and cool dimension to the song. I'm not bothered about the momemtun because there's enough time at the end to recover it.

Yes, there is enought time to recover it.  But the problem is, the song doesn't recover it. 

 

It recovers it in a different and more triumphant way, because with all the revelations at the end of the song, it doesn't need to be this intense feeling of dread (presumably that the character feels at that point), but of feeling safely.

Actually, when I think about it like that, the epic outro makes it all seem really funny considering the lyrics.

Otherwise, great post bosky. Really interesting perspective to a top 5 song.

[Unimatrix]

I was disappointed after my first listen of the song. The first few minutes were extremely promising, it sounded very inspired. For me it went donwhill as soon as the heavy riffing started. The verses, chorus etc. were not bad, but couldn't compete with the awesomeness of the beginning. Then the volume swell part began and renewed my hope that the true climax was still to come... but it never did  So in the end when I realized that the song was over I sat there in shock thinking "Wait, this is it?? No bombastic moog solo, Razor's Edge or Crimson Sunset epic ending, but THIS??"

Props to the band for trying something different, but it did not and to this day does not work for me in the context of this song. Back then I actually logged onto DTF to read some opinions about the song's ending, expecting everybody to tear it apart, but everybody seemed to really love it 

So I'm with bosk on this one, IMO the song does not recover momentum. It's like dreaming of the perfect chick, starting to undress her and waking up long before the real fun even begins 

But nevermind, my taste is screwed 

[bosk1]

It's like dreaming of the perfect chick, starting to undress her and waking up long before the real fun even begins 

  Wait, why would you undress a chick before playing Starcraft II?  I just don't understand.

[Perpetual Change]

bosk1, I get what you mean, but I don't think it matters that much, at least to me, and probably a not a lot of others.  Heck, one of the most popular prog rock pieces of all-time is the Yes classic, The Gates of Delirium, and that song is intense most of the way through, before finally building to a final five minutes plus which is very mellow, yet completely awesome.  There is no one set way of writing a great long song.

Heh. You know, ever since I heard TCoT for the first time, I've always considered it to be DT's Gates of Delirium.

[Banny]

I understand what you're saying, I just completely disagree. I love the way everything fades away to the keyboard patch and the volume-sweel guitar solo begins. It didn't sound forced to me and it just transitions beautifully.

In any event, I love that they decided to shake things up a little with TCOT. I definitely think they recover things in the ending. When that opening riff reprises at the end, my life is complete.

[Unimatrix]

It's like dreaming of the perfect chick, starting to undress her and waking up long before the real fun even begins 

  Wait, why would you undress a chick before playing Starcraft II?  I just don't understand.

You must be confused! Let me please explain:
- First three minutes of TCOT = Playing Starcraft II 
- The rest of the song up until the volume swells = playing lego 
- Volume swells = having fun with hot (inflatable) dolls, getting kind of excited, moving on to the real chick and starting to undress her 
- Now wait a minute man = waking up 

...or how about this version: Hearing the ending of the song for the first time = Starting to make out with the hot chick and suddenly realizing that "she" has a willy