I&W and SFAM

[ubit]

Hi everyone, this is my first post on here, but I've been a long-time lurker.  I was recently checking out the Train of Thought thread, where everyone was ordering their albums 1-10.  I was quite stunned by the results.  So here's my question (you may need to sit down for this):

What's with all the intense love for Images and Words and Scenes From a Memory?

I have always speculated that fans of the band are from one of two groups: 1) the people who love the hard 'n heavy side of the band (a la Glass Prison and TOT), or 2) the people who are really into the musicality and progressive-ness of the band. 

I am admittedly a bigger fan of the heavy stuff, but I am a musician and truly appreciate the talent that these guys have.  I love longer songs, and love the amazing musical interludes that these fellas create.  But I have never thought of I&W or SFAM as their top material.  It never even crossed my mind.  Those albums both have songs that I'll listen to a lot (Pull Me Under, Metropolis Pt 1, Learning to Live, Fatal Tragedy, Beyond This Life, Home, The Dance of Eternity), but if all the other songs on those albums disappeared... I'm not sure I would notice for a few months (and I listen to this band a LOT). 

I'm genuinely interested in what makes these two albums great to you guys, because I'm not ignorant enough to think all of you are just weird.  I'm sure there is a lot there that I'm missing, in terms of musical genius.  Please help me enjoy these albums to the fullest.  Maybe it is the storylines that I know little about (I'm more of a music guy than lyrics guy)? 

FYI, my top 10 songs in their catalog would probably be:

Octavarium
A Change of Seasons
In the Presence of Enemies
The Count of Tuscany
Space-Dye Vest
Metropolis Pt. 1
Home
The Glass Prison
Endless Sacrifice
The Ministry of Lost Souls

The order there is not pertinent (Octavarium is 1st, the rest I can't place) - I simply wanted you guys to have my musical taste in mind when you address my question. 

Hope to have many great musical discussions with you all for a long time.   

[FretMuppet]

They just have a... magic vibe to them, the overall positive atmospheres are just amazing. I got hooked onto SFAM mainly because I loved the concept, and the music seemed to compliment that nicely, so yeah...

[Jaffa]

First, welcome to the forum, and great first post!

Second, I've never been particularly great at explaining why I like music, because I'm not good with musical terminology.  But to give it a shot…

Images and Words: Images and Words is my favorite album, but I couldn’t even begin to articulate exactly why without breaking it down by song.  Pull Me Under caught me instantly because I am first and foremost a metalhead, and I just thought the proggy elements of it mixed with the metal so well.  Another Day astounded me with Labrie’s vocals, the airily light melody, and the interesting lyrics.  Take The Time blew my mind in every way – the vocal range, the soloes, the lyrics, the everything, I just love that song.  Surrounded just amazed me because it was one of the most strangely uplifting songs I’d ever heard.   Metropolis… I don’t think I need to say anything about Metropolis.  Under A glass Moon nailed me with very poetic lyrics and amazing melody.  Wait For Sleep didn’t impress me much on its own at first, but as a lead-in to LtL it does a brilliant job.  And LtL itself survives on excellent lyrics and beautiful tone.  I dunno.  All I can really say about I&W is that there isn't anything I DON'T like about it.

SFAM: To me, what makes this album is the flow.  If I listen to any of the songs out of order (save for Home and Strange Déjà Vu), none of them particularly wow me.  But the flow of the album from beginning to end, it’s just gorgeous to me.  It’s pure magic.  Starting with the Overture was brilliant enough on it’s own, simply because it binds the whole album together by introducing many musical elements early that will show up later, and from there the whole thing is smooth and fluent.  It's just such a cohesive package.  I also had a very fun time listening to it over and over again to figure out the story it was telling, and in my opinion, once you have the story figured out, that helps a lot toward enjoying the album.

Of course, what it all boils down to is taste.  I can only speak for myself.  But for me, yes, these are DT’s top tier albums. 

EDIT:  As an added note, looking at your top ten, I'd say your tastes tend a bit toward DT's darker stuff in general.  And I'd say I&W and SFAM are lighter albums, musically, except for the songs which you mentioned as liking.  So maybe that's something to do with it.

[ricky]

What's with all the intense love for Images and Words and Scenes From a Memory?

they're dream theater's best albums.

[ubit]

Jaffa,

First off, thanks for the thought-out reply!  You may claim not to explain music well, but you certainly do a fairly good job explaining why you enjoy those albums.  I know that I am going to be listening to these two albums a lot now, since people's replies will certainly intrigue me to dig deeper; but as of this moment, your fondness for the songs off of I&W such as "Take the Time" and "Under a Glass Moon" befuddle me.  I have seen UaGM listed highly on people's "top __ DT songs" lists before, and never could wrap my head around that.  I find it ironic that "Wait for Sleep" is one of the songs that I immediately liked, and was one of the few you weren't initially fond of.  Such is the beauty of life.

I do understand that music is ultimately about taste, but I find that people who like the same type of music generally will like the same songs within that musical category (Octavarium is a great example of a song most DT fans adore - I don't find this to be a coincidence).  So my hope is that this thread will allow my eyes to be opened to some things that I have not noticed before that makes some of the songs in these albums (and the albums as a whole) stand out more to me.  I certainly am always looking to fall for a new song/album/band with great music, and why look any farther than one of my favorite bands?

I know that opinions can change too, because I saw a whole bunch of love for "Awake," and began listening to that album more.  I still am not fond of a lot of that album, but "Voices" and "Space-Dye Vest" immediately rocketed to the top of my listening rotation for a long while. I can't find much else in that album... I almost included that in this thread, but I didn't wanna stir everyone up too much... :-)  I feel overall that the "metalhead" people tend to prefer the 21st century DT material, while the proggy folks prefer the 20th century material.  Maybe I'm mistaken.  But all of my "hardcore metalhead" friends who dislike DT (don't ask why I still talk to them--I'm still pondering that myself) tend to be sedated from their babbling about wankery and such when I put in TOT, SC, or BC&SL (the harder stuff on there anyways).  If I were to put on "Under a Glass Moon," I would likely be eviscerated by some of them.

FretPuppet,

I understand your difficulty in expressing your love for something, and appreciate your efforts.  I suspected that many people would say things like "magical" and "atmosphere," simply because the intangibles are often what separates a great album from a truly memorable, classic, and epic album.  I just haven't garnered those feelings when listening to these albums yet.  For MOMENTS I have, but not on the whole.  I look forward to experience those feelings soon... hopefully.

Ricky,

I've gathered that is the consensus here... 

No thoughts on why you feel that way?  I'm not big on accepting things "just cuz."   

[j]

I have always speculated that fans of the band are from one of two groups: 1) the people who love the hard 'n heavy side of the band (a la Glass Prison and TOT), or 2) the people who are really into the musicality and progressive-ness of the band. 

That's a common perception I think, but it's a pretty big over-generalization.  Most of us like both heavy and less-heavy stuff, to varying degrees, and a lot of us like to think that we are relatively open-minded when it comes to music (at least I do).

For example, I like The Glass Prison, In the Name of God, ITPOE Pt. 1, and a lot of DT's other "heavier" songs.  But ToT and SC are undeniably their worst albums IMO.  It's not just about the style.

FYI, my top 10 songs in their catalog would probably be:

Octavarium
A Change of Seasons
In the Presence of Enemies
The Count of Tuscany
Space-Dye Vest
Metropolis Pt. 1
Home
The Glass Prison
Endless Sacrifice
The Ministry of Lost Souls

That's a pretty damn solid top 10 I'd say, with a couple glaring exceptions.

Welcome!

-J

[ricky]

Ricky,

I've gathered that is the consensus here... 

No thoughts on why you feel that way?  I'm not big on accepting things "just cuz."   

first off, im not "Ricky", i'm the big nasty. and if you do call me Ricky, my name doesn't get capitalized.

and i never said "just cuz."

you will learn soon enough, young padawan.

[Jaffa]

your fondness for the songs off of I&W such as "Take the Time" and "Under a Glass Moon" befuddle me. 

I’ll see if I can do anything about that.    I’m relatively confident that I can’t (no offense – I greatly admire your effort to expand your tastes by learning to love more of their music – it’s just that, in my experience when it comes to music, there usually isn’t much explaining that can possibly change a person’s initial reaction to a song), but, I’m bored anyway, so. 

I think probably my favorite thing about UaGM is the opening.  I realize the opening alone is not much to base love of a song on, but bear with me.  It’s a very simple opening, but to me, it feels like I’m being taken to a different world of imagination.  It just has this fantasy vibe, something almost akin to power metal in the opening chords, that captures my imagination and intrigue right away.  The drumming begins and we’re reminded that it is indeed prog metal, NOT power metal, but the fantasy vibe carries throughout the song due to dreamily poetic lyrics and interesting guitar work.  As a fan of dreamily poetic lyrics, that’s obviously a plus for this song.  And maybe it’s just me, but I find that Labrie just nails the hell out of the vocals throughout.  His voice is exceptionally beautiful in this song, in my eyes, especially his opening lines and in the chorus.  In fact, I’d go so far as to say that vocally, this is probably my favorite JLB performance.  Also, 5:30 – 6:20 is just musically gorgeous to me. 

As for Take the Time… well, to be honest, part of my love for this song may have come from where I was in my life when I first heard it.  It just became an anthem of a change for me, an inspiration to improve my life.  “You’ll find all you need in your mind if you take the time” is a wonderful line to me.  The whole song has an inspirational and uplifting melody to it.  And, again, I just love JLB’s vocals here.  “There is something that I feel, to be something that is real…” His voice there makes me smile literally every time.    I won’t ramble on this song though, because I like pretty much everything about it.  But as I said, that may be because it has personal value to me.

Sorry if none of it is helpful at all.    For what it's worth, I think you're absolutely entitled to feel however you like about these albums. 

[ariich]

SFAM I don't think is particularly special, but back in my DT noob days I did love it so I guess I can see why people think it's so good.

I&W has a wonderful atmosphere to it though, and a kind of youthful charm. Love it.

[CrimsonSunrise]

Glad you posted Ubit, and welcome.  I agree with you...half way.  I think Images is a great album, SFAM...not so great.  Of course everything is subjective to the listener.  Well written post my friend!!

[Vajra]

When you add "Don't Look Past Me" and "To Live Forever" to Images and Words, like originally intended, the album becomes even greater. I think I&W and SFAM both tie at number 2 spot for best albums, right behind Six Degrees.

[CrimsonSunrise]

Ooops...forgot.  If you tend to lean towards the heavier side of DT, I'm surprised Awake isn't high on your list.  It was my first DT album, and I rank it in the top 2 wit I&W's

[ricky]

SFAM I don't think is particularly special, but back in my DT noob days I did love it so I guess I can see why people think it's so good.

ah-reach, SAY IT AINT SO!



*cries*

[bosk1]

For me, I&W is like Systematic Chaos in that it is a great half an album, and then has half that I could do without.  But that half features some of the best in the entire DT catalogue.  Metropolis and Learning To Live are top 10 songs, and Wait For Sleep and Pull Me Under aren't far behind.  So even with songs like Another Day and Surrounded dragging it down, it's still a great album.  And it gets the nostalgia nod for being so different back in '92 and being the first DT album I ever heard. 

SFAM has some incredible moments, but, in short, it's a case where the whole is much greater than the sum of the parts.  The songs and the overall story/concept really work well together and elevate the album as a whole.

[alirocker08]

SFAM: First DT album I listened to, so it already has a firm place in my heart. I really love the concept behind it, reincarnation is a topic that I've always found to be interesting, and I'm a sucker for storyline. I still love it to this day, purely because of how varied it is. I love the gospel-esq bit in SCO, and then I love the madness of TDOET. It's mind boggling how they managed to make the album flow so well when the songs are at opposite ends of the spectrum.

I&W: I actually have no idea why I like this album so much. It's just awesome ^^

[FlyingBIZKIT]

Well when I first started listening to DT, i liked Octavarium the most. Over time, I&W and SFAM have become some of my favorites. I really don't know why. The 4 songs that stand out to me the most on I&W are: Metropolis Part 1, Learning to Live, Under a Glass Moon, and Take the Time. As for SFAM: nearly all of them. I guess just overtime, I've appreciated alot of the stuff in their early years. SFAM is my 2nd fav, and I&W is my 3rd fav. 

[krands85]

It's hard to put into words why people like a lot of different things I guess, especially music.

What I would say though, is that with Images & Words, I was very much in a similar boat as you when I first started listening to DT. I never really cared for the album that much, except for Metropolis - I much preferred Train of Thought and it's heaviness; it was my favourite album for a while (I assume its your favourite too?)

Eventually, for some reason, I&W finally began to click for me and I began to enjoy the other tracks more and more. It's now my favourite album - by anyone. I've not abandoned my love of Train of Thought either, it's still my second favourite album.

As for SFAM, I totally agree with what bosk1 says: "the whole is much greater than the sum of the parts". The album only has one song that I'd consider to be in my top tier of favourite DT tracks (Beyond This Life) and for that reason I don't rank the album as highly as plenty of others do (I prefer Octavarium, despite it having several weak tracks, because of the brilliant highs of the title track, Sacrificed Sons, Root of All Evil and Panic Attack). But I can really appreciate SFAM as a whole album - the concept/story as bosk mentioned, the consistency of the tracks, the flow of the songs, the allusions to Metropolis Part 1 etc.

Maybe you'll one day begin to love I&W as I do, or maybe not. Everyones taste is different and everyones taste can change, thats what makes things interesting I suppose.

[jmbeat]

First of all welcome...
  I can understand a little about you questioning I&W considering the dated (but I still LOVE) production.  That album was my favorite until SFAM which I still believe to be one of the greatest albums of all time.  The reason I think they are both rated so highly is because for many people is that I&W was a lot of peoples intial introduction to DT, and the fact that SFAM was a sequel to a song from that album kind of made it a nostalgic thing.  Other than that they are probably two of the most badass albums ever until you let AWAKE age for a bit and realize that it is the best out of all three.

[ubit]

I am going to make an attempt to respond to you all (I hate when thread-starters don't acknowledge the responses they get), and I will do so in reverse chronological order since that's what I'm looking at in the "reply" screen...

jmbeat: Thanks for the welcoming!  You all seen very nice and mature here; a refreshing switch from the typical band forum.  Seeing as DT is a refreshing switch from the typical band, this does not entirely surprise me.  People who "get" DT probably have a higher IQ in music (and I dare say OVERALL) than the average fan of scum such as Bullet for My Valentine, or Dragonforce (sorry if anyone on this forum likes Dragonforce, but there is no worse feeling than hearing 8 songs on an album and being completely unable to differentiate any of them from one another).  Anyway, I don't hear any lack of production value from I&W honestly; a testament to their incredible production even back then!  I am shocked to see 1992 when I look up that album - it seems so much more recent to me. 

I do think that your point is valid in that it has some sort of intrinsic value to people that is tied to nostalgia and reminiscing of their youth and discovering of DT.  I, myself, only began to discover the beauty that is DT about two years ago.  This is the first chance for me to raise my hopes for a new album to an exceedingly impossible level to allow for nothing but disappointment, but I look forward to it!  I think that my "newbie" level may allow me to see the whole discography from a more non-bias perspective, perhaps.  Or, maybe I am just bias to the heavier and dark side of them anyway so it is irrelevant.... who knows?  Either way, I can see how the sequel album would receive praise due to the connection to a nostalgic favorite of the "original fans."  Then, of course, this does not account for the newer fans who have come to discover I&W to be a tremendous album... so I suppose I'm back to square one here.  I see that I'll clearly have to discover Awake some more too.  I REALLY enjoy Voices and Space-Dye Vest.  SDV is like the most beautiful song I've ever heard, and I rediscover that feeling upon every listen.  I remarkable feat, to be honest.  And Voices is just a powerhouse vocal performance with a very cool tune.  I like when bands have a chorus that changes each time it is sung.  Which other songs are your favorites from Awake that you would expect may catch my attention?  I admittedly have not given that album much play-time in my young DT life.

krands85: It is always a challenge to describe why you love something, especially when it is something so emotionally driven such as music.  I appreciate your attempt, and enjoy topics like this simply because of the challenge it provides people.  Quantifying the unquantifiable is something that I am oddly fond of, and this fits into that track well.  I'm honestly not sure what my favorite DT album is, but I tend to listen to Octavarium, Systematic Chaos (I really do NOT understand the hatred for that album at all), Train of Thought, and Black Clouds and Silver Linings the most.  I have recently been tearing through the older portion of their catalog in an attempt to discover what the praise is all about, but have not found more than a handful of songs that give me the same payoff as their most recent work.  And by payoff, I mean towel-worthy enjoyment.  Hopefully I'm allowed to say that on this forum...

FYI I totally agree with your take on Octavarium - the title track MORE than makes up for some of the weaker tracks, and the overall brillian concept about the piano keys and the whole 8/5 themes really give me an extra bit of glorious admiration for these musicians.  Not that any more was needed to make them my heroes.  But it didn't hurt any. 

FlyingBIZKIT: Your username is commendable, to say the least.  I appreciate your comments, however I have a question: is Octavarium still your favorite, or has another album clandestinely crept its way into the most sacred spot?

alirocker08: I'm racking the depths of my brain to come up with the conversion of SCO to the song that it represents... there are so many damn acronyms of songs with this band that I go mad trying to decipher them all.  Either way, I completely agree that the album's flow is a tremendous accomplishment, and that the styles are all over the place.  That alone does not make the album get the high marks it often receives (I'm not trying to imply that is your only argument either), but I do appreciate the eclectic nature of SFAM.

bosk1: I like your comparison to Systematic Chaos.  I feel that SC also has some of the best work they have ever done, particularly the 25 combined minutes of ITPOE and the beautiful, graceful TMOLS.  I am assuming people here hate Constant Motion and The Dark Eternal Night due to the cheesiness or commercial feel to them, but I think they are fairly interesting songs with good replay value.  I'm not a huge fan of Forsaken, or most of Repentance, but come on... the album has some incredible work on it.  That's undeniable (to me).

diemtay: I am a little confused: what are those two songs you mentioned and where can I find them?  I don't think that I have either of those songs in my discography of DT.  I am intrigued. 

CrimsonSunrise: Thank you for the welcome, and the compliments!  I wanted to not appear like a rambling, drunken boob.  I hope I have accomplished this to some extent. 

ariich: I think that your description of I&W is spot on.  I can see the youthful nature of it, and it is pretty fun at times.  But I also see the "youth" of the album as a downfall.  It is hard to explain, but I feel like they were still carving out their identity, and had not yet hit their musical peak.  Some would certainly argue that, but obviously this is a subjective topic anyway.

Jaffa: I will certainly reread your words as I listen to I&W next time. Thank you for your attempts.  I would normally agree with your point regarding instantaneous fondness towards a song, but I have found that some of the greatest things take a lot of time to let soak in, and that outside information can add a lot to a song.  Case and point would be Space-Dye Vest.  The backstory to that song gave me a whole new level of emotion toward it, and this new dimension propelled it high on my list of favorites. 

Oh, and spot-on thought about me liking the dark music.  I think I like dark movies too, generally.  Makes me sound like a splendid character, huh?  Believe it or not, I'm actually quite an upbeat person!  :-)

big nasty: Point taken.  Should I, or can I, capitalize "big nasty."  I was unsure, so I went with no. 
What niche is it that you've carved out on this board.  I haven't figure it out yet, but you are certainly one of those unique characters that every forum has.  For better or for worse.  :-)

j: another username that sticks out to me as awesome.  I agree that my comment was a generalization, but to me it is kind of like Democrats and Republicans.  Although people associate themselves with one or the other, they are almost all clearly some hybrid of both, because there are just too many factors to be purely one side. 

Also, I am shocked that you find ToT and SC to be "undeniably" their worst albums.  I think that When Dream and Day Unite and Falling into Infinity are 17 times worse, give or take. 

Finally, what are the "glaring" inconsistencies in my top 10, in your opinion?  I'm simply curious.  No offense will be taken!  What is your top 10?

[Jaffa]

I'm guessing alirocker meant SoC, but it's also entirely possible that I'm just an idiot.

Edit: The Spirit Carries On, I'm retarded.

[FlyingBIZKIT]

Haha, thanks. It's a good name. Here's my list:

1. Six Degrees
2. SFAM
3. Images and Words
4. Awake
5. FII
6. Octavarium
7.BC&SL
8.Train of Thought
9.SC
10.WDADU

In my opinion, there are only a handful of songs on 8vm that really stand out to me: 8vm, the root of all evil, and sacrificed sons. Though, it used to be one of my favs, it's now #6. Falling Into Infinity is a great album as well, haha....most people put it at the bottom.

[The Silent Cody]

I said hello to You Ubit in other thread, but I will do it again - HELLO!
Why I&W and SFAM...hm, I&W hve that magical atmosphere, that you could only find on Awake also...I&W is an album perfect in everything. SFAM has got some moments that I would say are less perfect (Beyond This Life) but it is a masterpiece, with no doubt.

[ubit]

Jaffa - If you are retarded, than I must seem Walmart-shopper-esque to all of you.  Thank you for the clarification.  I swear to God, I've never seen more abbreviations in my life.  And I've been in plenty of Computer Science courses, so that's saying something.

FlyingBIZKIT - Your list is the reason I created this thread.  I am most certainly missing a lot of enjoyment out of your top 5, because I only pick and choose a couple songs from all of those.  
The alternative viewpoint is that I'm the normal one and you all are crazy; however wonderfully arrogant this would be if it were true, my instincts tell me that I am incapable of being referenceable as "normal."  

The Silent Cody - Your username is trumped by your friendly spirit.  Thank you for the hello's!  I have not seen your first one yet, but I will likely respond to that one too.  :-)  I keep hearing about the atmosphere in I&W.  Maybe I need to listen to it all the way through with my eyes closes and see what sort of journey it takes me on.  I have not done this to date.

Beyond This Life stands out to you as a mar on the masterpiece that is SFAM (quoting you there, not a masterpiece to me)?  That's one of the few songs that I consistently go to for musical bliss on that album.

[FlyingBIZKIT]

Haha well I guess everyone has a different view of DT's greatest. Maybe you will grow on I&W one day? Maybe not? Who knows? You're still normal. Maybe I'm the not normal one 

[The Silent Cody]

The Silent Cody - Your username is trumped by your friendly spirit.  Thank you for the hello's!  I have not seen your first one yet, but I will likely respond to that one too.  :-)  I keep hearing about the atmosphere in I&W.  Maybe I need to listen to it all the way through with my eyes closes and see what sort of journey it takes me on.  I have not done this to date.

Wow, does word "trumped" means "imaginary" in some way?? I never heard that word before, English is not my native language BTW You should definitly listen to I&W with eyes closed, let the music flows through your body, You know what I mean I admire your posts, you are responding to everybody separatly, that's awesome 

[ubit]

FlyingBIZKIT - Your username is FlyingBIZKIT, your potential normalcy is no longer within the realm of reason.  ;-)

The Silent Cody - What is your native language?  The word trumped has multiple meanings, but the sense I'm using it in kind of means "to get the better of," or "to top."  I'll use the word "trumped" in a few sentences that will give you a better feel for the meaning of the word:

1. Your Ace of Spades trumps my King of Hearts.

2. Dream Theater's "Octavarium" trumps all other songs ever written by any band.

Make sense?

[JediKnight1969]

Hi everyone, this is my first post on here, but I've been a long-time lurker.  I was recently checking out the Train of Thought thread, where everyone was ordering their albums 1-10.  I was quite stunned by the results.  So here's my question (you may need to sit down for this):

What's with all the intense love for Images and Words and Scenes From a Memory?

I have always speculated that fans of the band are from one of two groups: 1) the people who love the hard 'n heavy side of the band (a la Glass Prison and TOT), or 2) the people who are really into the musicality and progressive-ness of the band. 

I am admittedly a bigger fan of the heavy stuff, but I am a musician and truly appreciate the talent that these guys have.  I love longer songs, and love the amazing musical interludes that these fellas create.  But I have never thought of I&W or SFAM as their top material.  It never even crossed my mind.  Those albums both have songs that I'll listen to a lot (Pull Me Under, Metropolis Pt 1, Learning to Live, Fatal Tragedy, Beyond This Life, Home, The Dance of Eternity), but if all the other songs on those albums disappeared... I'm not sure I would notice for a few months (and I listen to this band a LOT). 

I'm genuinely interested in what makes these two albums great to you guys, because I'm not ignorant enough to think all of you are just weird.  I'm sure there is a lot there that I'm missing, in terms of musical genius.  Please help me enjoy these albums to the fullest.  Maybe it is the storylines that I know little about (I'm more of a music guy than lyrics guy)? 

FYI, my top 10 songs in their catalog would probably be:

Octavarium
A Change of Seasons
In the Presence of Enemies
The Count of Tuscany
Space-Dye Vest
Metropolis Pt. 1
Home
The Glass Prison
Endless Sacrifice
The Ministry of Lost Souls

The order there is not pertinent (Octavarium is 1st, the rest I can't place) - I simply wanted you guys to have my musical taste in mind when you address my question. 

Hope to have many great musical discussions with you all for a long time.   

You can't say that you're a musician and truly appreciate DT's talent and, at the same time, don't understand why I&W and SFAM are masterpieces. So, one of two: either you're a liar or an arrogant ass.

[RuRoRul]

There are plenty of musicians out there who don't even like DT, and there are plenty of people who understand that the guys in Dream Theater are talented without being an absoulte fanboy about their music. And there are plenty of people (like the original poster, I believe) who appreciate DT's talent but don't love Images And Words or Scenes From A Memory far more than every other album, and don't understand why people think they are so much better compared to DT's other works.

And I think plenty of people would agree that it isn't the original poster who's coming off as an arrogant ass in this situation.

[ubit]

JediKnight1969 - I completely disagree with your assessment of the situation.  There are some incredible musicians who play in styles that I do not enjoy, nor appreciate to the extent that maybe some fans of those styles would say I "should" as a musician.  This does not automatically mean that I am a liar, or an arrogant ass.  To claim this to be the only two possibilities is more asinine than you feel that I am for pondering the greatness of the albums you clearly hold dearly in your heart.

Your assertion is that any musician should love and appreciate I&W and SFAM.  I don't see how you can assume this to be true, assuming you do understand the subjectivity and emotion involved in music (and I assume you do).  

Anyone who claims that an album should be universally loved by all musicians is more likely to be the "arrogant ass" than the one questioning the integrity of an album with a desire to appreciate it more fully.  Am I wrong?

RuRoRul - I agree with you entirely.  I find that musical elitism is a common problem among fans of bands with talent levels this high.  I sometimes find myself slipping into that unfortunate realm as well, but I try to stray away from it.

[Jaffa]

And I think plenty of people would agree that it isn't the original poster who's coming off as an arrogant ass in this situation.

Seconded.

[bosk1]

it isn't the original poster who's coming off as an arrogant ass in this situation.

 Who said anyone is?  I'm not sure why you even bring such a thing up.

[Jaffa]

it isn't the original poster who's coming off as an arrogant ass in this situation.

 Who said anyone is?  I'm not sure why you even bring such a thing up.

So, one of two: either you're a liar or an arrogant ass.

[JediKnight1969]

There are plenty of musicians out there who don't even like DT, and there are plenty of people who understand that the guys in Dream Theater are talented without being an absoulte fanboy about their music. And there are plenty of people (like the original poster, I believe) who appreciate DT's talent but don't love Images And Words or Scenes From A Memory far more than every other album, and don't understand why people think they are so much better compared to DT's other works.

And I think plenty of people would agree that it isn't the original poster who's coming off as an arrogant ass in this situation.

he didn't say "I don't understand" he said:

"What's with all the intense love for Images and Words and Scenes From a Memory?"

(As a musician, are you really asking?)

"I'm genuinely interested in what makes these two albums great to you guys, because I'm not ignorant enough to think all of you are just weird"

So someone who love this records is just weird... Unless we prove him wrong. He said he's a musician. I don't think so (that's why I used the word "liar"). Any musician understand and appreciate DT's talent even if they don't love their music (of course they don't have to) and don't need anyone to explain the beauty of those two classic records. That's why I used the word "arrogant". I admit "ass" was uncalled.

[bosk1]

Oh, I missed that.  

JediKnight1969, there's no place for throwing out comments like that.  That is, by definition, flamebaiting/personal attack, which is against the forum rules.  Please stop that immediately.  He has an opinion, which he is entitled to, and he also is entitled to ask the question that this thread asks without being attacked for it.

[JediKnight1969]

JediKnight1969 - I completely disagree with your assessment of the situation.  There are some incredible musicians who play in styles that I do not enjoy, nor appreciate to the extent that maybe some fans of those styles would say I "should" as a musician.  This does not automatically mean that I am a liar, or an arrogant ass.  To claim this to be the only two possibilities is more asinine than you feel that I am for pondering the greatness of the albums you clearly hold dearly in your heart.

Your assertion is that any musician should love and appreciate I&W and SFAM.  I don't see how you can assume this to be true, assuming you do understand the subjectivity and emotion involved in music (and I assume you do).  

Anyone who claims that an album should be universally loved by all musicians is more likely to be the "arrogant ass" than the one questioning the integrity of an album with a desire to appreciate it more fully.  Am I wrong?

RuRoRul - I agree with you entirely.  I find that musical elitism is a common problem among fans of bands with talent levels this high.  I sometimes find myself slipping into that unfortunate realm as well, but I try to stray away from it.

Of course you disagree with me...

You never said you didn't enjoy those records. You said "what about them?" Like there's be "something" you can't sense and understand that make many people to appreciate those albums so much. Or maybe they're just weird...

And I never said "anyone should love those records"

Let´s agree to disagree.