I&W and SFAM

[JediKnight1969]

Oh, I missed that.  

JediKnight1969, there's no place for throwing out comments like that.  That is, by definition, flamebaiting/personal attack, which is against the forum rules.  Please stop that immediately.  He has an opinion, which he is entitled to, and he also is entitled to ask the question that this thread asks without being attacked for it.

OK. Fair enough. Please excuse my bad manners everyone.

[jsem]

Welcome.

Why. Well, it's a completely subjective question why they appreciate music the way they do.

I just love the entire vibe I&W gives, it's my fav DT album. It just has a constant feel to it that is awesome. And it has some of my favorite songs ever... practically all of the songs on there are top DT songs.

As for SFAM, it's my 2nd fav DT album. It's partly because there's really no weak track (Dance of Eternity is semi-weak, and BtL & Home drag on) and it's a conceptual record so it flows. The main motif is also beautiful, and the album is filled with many eargasmic moments. That goes for I&W too actually.

They're the two most consistent DT albums imo, with nothing but memorable songs.

[ubit]

JediKnight - You take me asking what all the "intense love" is about as an insult?  I'm pretty sure that the rest of my post clearly showed that I DO understand and appreciate DT's talent.  I'm not sure how to come across as any more of a fan.  

In regards to my "weird" comment, I clearly stated that I am not ignorant enough to think that you all are weird, which implies that the opposite is true: I am the weird one for not "getting" these albums.  There was no challenge involved there - only genuine interest in attaining a greater appreciation for these albums.  I also stated in my post that I DO like some of those aforementioned albums, just not to the extent that others seem to.  

And calling me arrogant for asking someone to explain their love of an album that hasn't "hit me" in the same way it clearly hits you (whether it be on an emotional note, or something else) on a musical discussion forum... well, I guess then I'm not sure why we're on this forum is discussing the likes and dislikes of the band isn't a prominent and readily-accepted component of it.  

arrogant: having an exaggerated sense of one's own importance.

I'm sorry if you disagree, but I will vehemently argue that your claim of my arrogance doesn't ring true in the least bit.  If you continue to hold the belief that your opinion that I&W and SFAM are undeniably DT's greatest works and that any "real" musician would know better, I'm going to continue to sense irony in your comments.  Music has so much soul and personality and emotion and atmosphere that you cannot possibly make claims like this.  On what level can you tell me an album is the greatest?  Does it make you feel that happiest?  Does it pass a test of "technical difficulty" that you desire?  Does it connect to your personal life?  Does the emotional outpour of the musicians touch you?  Do the harmonies interconnect in ways that impress you or conjure up positive feelings?  There are reasons people love music - it moves them, it impresses them, it connects with them.  How can there be a universal answer to what the "best" album, song, or even band is?  There is simply too much subjectivity involved.  

Now, on that note, I've stated previously that I am not expecting to ever be as in love with these said albums as others are, because it would've happened already.  But could something someone states in this thread open my eyes and give me new appreciate for part of the album, or even a song on there?  Absolutely. It has happened to me before, and will likely happen again.  And many of your fellow users have spent some time trying to share the reasons behind the magical feelings that those albums stir up inside them.  That seems like a much more productive reply to a thread in a musical discussion forum than your approach of attacking me and claiming I cannot possible by a musician since my views aren't the same as yours.  Again, I don't want to argue any more with you in this thread, but I want to defend myself and my initial position and reasoning behind this thread.  I don't need to prove to you that I do play music, and that I have for many years.  I don't care to, and it won't affect my life in any way.  But I will not stand for being called arrogant by someone who's arrogance is blinding them from seeing how completely humble my question and intentions were.

Edit:

bosk1 - Thank you.  It is clear that the moderation on these forums is not only fair, but commendably professional in the way they handle potentially heated situations.

JediKnight - I will be fine agreeing to disagree with you.

[ariich]

ariich: I think that your description of I&W is spot on.  I can see the youthful nature of it, and it is pretty fun at times.  But I also see the "youth" of the album as a downfall.  It is hard to explain, but I feel like they were still carving out their identity, and had not yet hit their musical peak.  Some would certainly argue that, but obviously this is a subjective topic anyway.

Absolutely. It's one of the things I love about the album, but I can completely understand why someone else could see it as a negative. Which is why I'm always so surprised when people find it hard to grasp the opinions of others.

[Elaitch]

Why are SFAM and I&W great?

Concerning SFAM: the strength in this album is mainly the strong riffs (Beyond This Life, Strange Deja Vu, Home, Fatal Tradegy, for example) along with the variety in style through-out, which never leaves you bored (even though it features some really weird elements, like the wailing woman on "Through Her Eyes"... never liked that part, doesn't feel like Dream Theater for me). It shows the full palette of the band members musicianship and what they're capable of, both technically (The Dance of Eternity, anyone?) and otherwise musically. In many ways it represents the DT sound very well, and as a whole the album is one of their absolute strongest. I never really cared much for the story, though.

Concerning I&W... it's a perfect mix of power metal and progressive elements, leaving simply... progressive metal. For me, when I think of "progressive metal", I&W is what instantly comes to mind. Also, this is the first album where the band members presents what would later define their respective styles, and also the first to present one of the most important aspects of Dream Theaters music: James LaBrie. I, for one, also love how the drums sound on this album (triggered drum sounds add an awesome percussive effect. I mean, the beginning of Under a Glass Moon would never have been so rhythmically awesome if they hadn't used that particular snare drum sound). It's a solid piece of music, showing both technical and melodic proficiency and great ambience.

[stryker]

Which other songs are your favorites from Awake that you would expect may catch my attention?

Scarred...it will NOT disappoint you.  

[ubit]

jsem - I appreciate your welcome, and find it ironic (this has happened a few times now) that the only songs that REALLY jump out to me as awesome from SFAM are the ones you list as either dragging or weaker.  It points to the fact that maybe we must listen for completely opposite reasons, which would also explain the overall difference of opinion regarding these albums.  Thank you for your comments!  :-)

ariich - I totally agree with your take on it, and I can see both sides of this coin quite well.  I think that people's emotions in general get in the way of seeing other viewpoints more than anything else.

[chrisbDTM]

Which other songs are your favorites from Awake that you would expect may catch my attention?

Scarred...it will NOT disappoint you.  

quoted for truth


also check out voices. or the whole album

[Dream Team]

Going back to TTT and UAGM - I would love to know what's NOT to like about these songs? I mean seriously, great riffs, great leads, great rhythms, great melodies, great lyrics, outstanding vocals. I think it would be a lot harder to come up with an explanation of why you DON'T like them than why you DO.

[ricky]

Which other songs are your favorites from Awake that you would expect may catch my attention?

Scarred...it will NOT disappoint you.  

+1

Scarred <3

everyone has different tastes of course, but the most people agree that Scarred is the dog's pants.

[bosk1]

Oh, I missed that. 

JediKnight1969, there's no place for throwing out comments like that.  That is, by definition, flamebaiting/personal attack, which is against the forum rules.  Please stop that immediately.  He has an opinion, which he is entitled to, and he also is entitled to ask the question that this thread asks without being attacked for it.

OK. Fair enough. Please excuse my bad manners everyone.

Seems like probably just a misunderstanding, so we should just leave it at that.

[Dream Team]

For me, I&W is like Systematic Chaos in that it is a great half an album, and then has half that I could do without.  But that half features some of the best in the entire DT catalogue.  Metropolis and Learning To Live are top 10 songs, and Wait For Sleep and Pull Me Under aren't far behind.  So even with songs like Another Day and Surrounded dragging it down, it's still a great album.  And it gets the nostalgia nod for being so different back in '92 and being the first DT album I ever heard. 

SFAM has some incredible moments, but, in short, it's a case where the whole is much greater than the sum of the parts.  The songs and the overall story/concept really work well together and elevate the album as a whole.

This part makes me  . Surrounded is a perfect song, without a wrong or wasted note anywhere.

[stryker]

everyone has different tastes of course, but the most people agree that Scarred is the dog's pants.

I couldn't have said it any better myself!   

[ariich]

Or just pants.

Either way.

[Kotowboy]

They're both albums DT made with something to prove.

Which is why i think A Dramatic Turn Of Events may also be a classic.

[Zook]

For me, I&W is like Systematic Chaos in that it is a great half an album, and then has half that I could do without.  But that half features some of the best in the entire DT catalogue.  Metropolis and Learning To Live are top 10 songs, and Wait For Sleep and Pull Me Under aren't far behind.  So even with songs like Another Day and Surrounded dragging it down, it's still a great album.  And it gets the nostalgia nod for being so different back in '92 and being the first DT album I ever heard. 

SFAM has some incredible moments, but, in short, it's a case where the whole is much greater than the sum of the parts.  The songs and the overall story/concept really work well together and elevate the album as a whole.

This part makes me  . Surrounded is a perfect song, without a wrong or wasted note anywhere.

Agreed. Bosk, you fail.

[kiwiclapton]

What's with all the intense love for Images and Words and Scenes From a Memory?

they're dream theater's best albums.

This.

[LieLowTheWantedMan]

For me, I&W is like Systematic Chaos in that it is a great half an album, and then has half that I could do without.  But that half features some of the best in the entire DT catalogue.  Metropolis and Learning To Live are top 10 songs, and Wait For Sleep and Pull Me Under aren't far behind.  So even with songs like Another Day and Surrounded dragging it down, it's still a great album.  And it gets the nostalgia nod for being so different back in '92 and being the first DT album I ever heard. 

SFAM has some incredible moments, but, in short, it's a case where the whole is much greater than the sum of the parts.  The songs and the overall story/concept really work well together and elevate the album as a whole.

This part makes me  . Surrounded is a perfect song, without a wrong or wasted note anywhere.

This. Although I do agree about Another Day.

[ubit]

Elaitch - I appreciate the thoughtful response.  I completely agree with the drumming comment!  Before I really got into DT, and was still trying to listen to all of their stuff, I could always tell songs from I&W by the unique snare sound.  It seems Portnoy uses the snare a lot MORE on this album than most others - also accentuated by the unique tonality of it. 

[senecadawg2]

Scenes is my favorite of them all. I feel like the reason i fell in love with it was the complexity and the story line. I'm sure I'm also biased as this was the first DT CD i owned and fell in love with.

I&W is special in that, at least for me, there is absolutely nothing to dislike about it. Yet so many things to enjoy. The transitions between heavy/proggy songs like Pull Me Under to light beautiful ballads like Surrounded and Wait for Sleep never gets old. Not to mention Metropolis pt. 1, one of my favorite songs ever (2nd only to ACOS).

I'd also have to lump Awake into the top three albums for me. However, Awake took the longest for me to get into, mainly because of the darkness. Once I listened a couple times through i was just blown away by the musicality.

[ubit]

In regards to Awake, does no one else find 6:00 to be kind of... subpar?  That song initially turned me off to the entire album.  After all of the amazing opening songs on their other albums, that one made me go "this album must be awful if this is the best opener they could muster up," and I didn't go back and discover some of the gems on there for a while later.  I still honestly cringe at 6:00 when it comes on.  Am I alone here in that opinion?

[The Dark Master]

I think that your description of I&W is spot on.  I can see the youthful nature of it, and it is pretty fun at times.  But I also see the "youth" of the album as a downfall.  It is hard to explain, but I feel like they were still carving out their identity, and had not yet hit their musical peak.  Some would certainly argue that, but obviously this is a subjective topic anyway.

I agree and disagree with this.  Yes it is true that I&W was much closer to their influences then their later works, but if you compare it to pre-I&W Dream Theater (WDADU and the Majesty Demos), DT made a quantum leap in song-writing mastery as well as a discovery of their own identity.  It may not be as well defined as their later albums, but for me, it is that perfect balance between their influences and their individuality, as well as the balance of youthful exuberance, arrogance, and balls, coupled with the experience and maturity of a band that had been around for 7 years, already had a full album under their belts, and thusly had enough time to mature a bit as songwriters, that really makes I&W something special.  Dream Theater will never make an album like that again because they will never be at that point in their lives again.  That unique and unrepeatable point in their careers is what made I&W so breathtaking and beautiful.

Oh, all that, and the fact that Learning to Live is the best album finisher of all time.  The last few minutes of that song has probably the most amazing and emotional music Dream Theater has ever written!  

[ricky]

In regards to Awake, does no one else find 6:00 to be kind of... subpar? 

the big nasty doesn't.

i love 6:00 <3

[ubit]

The Dark Master - do you find the end of LtL more emotionally driven than space-dye vest?

[Mr. Beale]

Good first posts ubit

It's hard to why I love SFAM so much, but I think it comes back to how holistic the album is, everything fits together so well. The band displays a lot of range but is never too showy, and the story blew my mind at the time, maybe just because progressive music beyond some Pink Floyd and Rush was something new for me. Consistently entertaining, it's just has a 'sum greater than its parts' intangible quality where the band was stretching their creativity to wonderful results.

Can't really provide insight on I&W though since I'm in the minority in that doesn't hold it as a favorite, in fact it ranks in the bottom half for me ( I know). Maybe it's because I'm a relative newcomer and wasn't there when it was new so there's no nostalgia factor, but that might be a overgeneralization. Maybe it's because I have more of a metal background so I tend to gravitate to the more heavy leaning direction the band has taken since, but then again I think the ballads are the standouts so

[Mr. Beale]

In regards to Awake, does no one else find 6:00 to be kind of... subpar?  That song initially turned me off to the entire album.  After all of the amazing opening songs on their other albums, that one made me go "this album must be awful if this is the best opener they could muster up," and I didn't go back and discover some of the gems on there for a while later.  I still honestly cringe at 6:00 when it comes on.  Am I alone here in that opinion?

I  6:00

[The Dark Master]

The Dark Master - do you find the end of LtL more emotionally driven than space-dye vest?

Yes.  Much more.  Lyrically, that song is one of the most profound things DT has ever written.  Musically, the song is one of those "big climax" songs, a relatively lengthy number where you get to hear a musical idea and feeling grow and evolve of an extended period of time, going though all the various phases of life, if you will, with each member of the band given the opportunity to show their chops and thus add a little piece of themselves to the  greater whole.  The music builds and builds until it reaches that climactic ending, that final chorus with Labrie pouring his heart and soul into his performance singing some of the most beautiful lyrics of the band's career (The way your heart sounds, makes all the difference, it's what decides if you'll endure the things that we all feel, the way you heart beats, makes all the difference in learning to live).  Then follows Myung's (the lyricist) deeply introspective, yet somehow jubilant and commanding, baseline, which builds back up into the whole band playing and singing as they bring the whole thing to a close with a sublimely elegant, haunting and uplifting fade out.  There is nothing else quite like it.  For me at least, I find it much more emotional and touching then SDV.  

[j]

j: another username that sticks out to me as awesome.  I agree that my comment was a generalization, but to me it is kind of like Democrats and Republicans.  Although people associate themselves with one or the other, they are almost all clearly some hybrid of both, because there are just too many factors to be purely one side.

Fair enough.  Glad you like my handle, it is easy to remember.

Also, I am shocked that you find ToT and SC to be "undeniably" their worst albums.  I think that When Dream and Day Unite and Falling into Infinity are 17 times worse, give or take.

To be honest, there are like 4 tracks between ToT and SC combined that I ever listen to.  And ITPOE Pt. 1 is the only one I'd say is great.  ITNOG has that terrible instrumental break, SoC is too long, Repentance is too long.  Vacant is pretty good, but I rarely listen to it.  I guess that's 5, my b.

FII and WDADU are inconsistent, I'll give you that.  But FII has some of DT's absolute best material.  And I won't try to explain my love for WDADU, but I feel it's criminally underrated due to the vocals and the production.  People use phrases like "youthful energy"; it's just cool to hear DT in that stage, before they had an established sound or any success, just a bunch of kids who obviously love what they're doing.  Give it another listen sometime with an open mind and you might like what you hear.  I'll try to do the same for ToT and SC.  

Finally, what are the "glaring" inconsistencies in my top 10, in your opinion?  I'm simply curious.  No offense will be taken!  What is your top 10?

I was just kind of being an ass, we all have our weird opinions.  I was referring to Endless Sacrifice and The Ministry of Lost Souls.  And personally, I wouldn't include Home.  But with those exceptions, my top 10 would probably look a lot like yours.  I'd replace 'em with Learning to Live, Trial of Tears, and...I dunno off the top of my head, something else (EDIT: Scarred).  But your top 10 looks mostly great, much much better than some I've seen here at DTF.  *shudders*

-J

[FlyingBIZKIT]

6:00 on a Christmas Morning! 

[hefdaddy42]

Going back to TTT and UAGM - I would love to know what's NOT to like about these songs? I mean seriously, great riffs, great leads, great rhythms, great melodies, great lyrics, outstanding vocals. I think it would be a lot harder to come up with an explanation of why you DON'T like them than why you DO.

This for sure.  Please answer this, ubit.

[Hal Incandenza]

In regards to Awake, does no one else find 6:00 to be kind of... subpar?  That song initially turned me off to the entire album.  After all of the amazing opening songs on their other albums, that one made me go "this album must be awful if this is the best opener they could muster up," and I didn't go back and discover some of the gems on there for a while later.  I still honestly cringe at 6:00 when it comes on.  Am I alone here in that opinion?

While 6:00 is my second least favorite song on Awake, it had the exact opposite effect on me as it did on you.  Awake was the first DT album I listened to, after I was basically forced to listen to it by a friend.  It drew me in and kept me going.

[ubit]

Going back to TTT and UAGM - I would love to know what's NOT to like about these songs? I mean seriously, great riffs, great leads, great rhythms, great melodies, great lyrics, outstanding vocals. I think it would be a lot harder to come up with an explanation of why you DON'T like them than why you DO.

This for sure.  Please answer this, ubit.

I promise I will.  I am going to take the time and listen deeply to these songs.  I just haven't had a lot of free time lately to do so properly.  You will get a response.  :-)

[liquidtension]

My simple 2 cents:

My love of I&W is simply because it was the album that introduced me to the band.  It was a semi-permanent fixture in my cd player for the better part of a couple years. 

SFAM took me a long time to warm up to upon release - maybe I was semi-disappointed (at the time) in FII and kind of gave up on them for a while.  I think I listened to it once or twice and thought "nothing new here" and moved on.  I was kinda tired of the revolving keyboard player at the time too.

[Dream Team]

Going back to TTT and UAGM - I would love to know what's NOT to like about these songs? I mean seriously, great riffs, great leads, great rhythms, great melodies, great lyrics, outstanding vocals. I think it would be a lot harder to come up with an explanation of why you DON'T like them than why you DO.

This for sure.  Please answer this, ubit.

I promise I will.  I am going to take the time and listen deeply to these songs.  I just haven't had a lot of free time lately to do so properly.  You will get a response.  :-)

Not sure if intentional.

[KevShmev]

While some songs are better than the others, I remember first getting I&W back in the day and being amazed at how terrific every song was.  I could listen to it all day and never think that anything came off as a down moment or song or anything like that.  It is amazingly consistent.

SFAM not only has a special vibe going on, but it has some of the best vocal melodies the band has ever written.  While the story itself is a bit corny and far-fetched, it still comes together pretty well, and the way they tied everything together, without going overboard on the reprises, was very well-done.