Why do people think DT11 wont be heavy without MP?

[SnakeEyes]

It depends on what you mean by "recent."  I think there was a definite nu-metal influence with Train of Thought, but nothing I can remember in the last couple of albums.

You didn't hear it all over Systematic Chaos?  

[SnakeEyes]

I don't really like arguments over the metal sub-genre labeling, but I don't think DT were ever power metal and I don't hear any nu metal in their recent stuff either.

When DT first started, they were more Triumph than they were Korn.  And, I liked it better that way. 

[lithium112]

Right, ToT is all over the nu-metal thing. SC and BC&SL is more about Opeth-inspired death metal, modern metal (Trivium and the sort), etc, but they make it their own. The last 2 tracks on BC&SL completely throw that away, and that's why I love TBoT and TCoT!

Although I love both bands, Opeth is one of the last bands I would ever compare DT to. With the exception of Repentance, I can't think of any DT song that sounds like an Opeth track (even if you disregard the vocals).

And I still don't hear that much of a nu metal influence in ToT tbh. Parts of Honor Thy Father, but not really much else. But maybe I just can't think of the songs properly right now, so if anyone wants to point out a few obvious examples I'd be happy to concede the point.

[SnakeEyes]

This Dying Soul, Honor thy Father and Endless Praise all have a lot of heavy nu-metal influenc.  The riffs, the guitar tone, the downtuned riffs, the vocals and just the overall mix of thos three songs.

[bosk1]

Not worth going off on a huge debate on whether or not DT is "nu metal," but I'll just reiterate that I don't hear it.  Metal?  Yes.  Nu metal?  No.  Downtuning and using a snarly Dimebag guitar tone do not alone transform something into nu metal, IMO.  I don't think those things make them any more nu metal than the fact that they included samples in some I&W and Awake songs and have a semi-rap portion of TDS now makes them a rap band.  But whatever.  If you think differently, that's fine.

[lithium112]

Yeah, I dunno.. I've been re-listening to ToT just now and still don't really hear anything that screams "nu metal". The overall feel of the songs seems quite different to me. But yeah anyway, clearly other people hear it so I'm not gonna argue.

I guess my main point is that DT has always remained firmly within the Progressive Metal genre and incorporating various styles and sounds into the music has always been a part of that.

[SnakeEyes]

Not worth going off on a huge debate on whether or not DT is "nu metal," but I'll just reiterate that I don't hear it.  Metal?  Yes.  Nu metal?  No.  Downtuning and using a snarly Dimebag guitar tone do not alone transform something into nu metal, IMO.  I don't think those things make them any more nu metal than the fact that they included samples in some I&W and Awake songs and have a semi-rap portion of TDS now makes them a rap band.  But whatever.  If you think differently, that's fine.

Dimebag?  I didn't realize that Pantera was considered "nu-metal."  I was referring to bands like Korn, Limp Bizkit and all those terrible bands that came on the scene in the mid-late 90's that everyone wanted to sound like because they sold millions of records.  And, like I said, it's not just the guitar tone and downtuning.  It's also the vocals and the overall mix (you forgot to include those things in the above paragraph) that make the comparison obvious.  

[IdoSC]

Not worth going off on a huge debate on whether or not DT is "nu metal," but I'll just reiterate that I don't hear it.  Metal?  Yes.  Nu metal?  No.  Downtuning and using a snarly Dimebag guitar tone do not alone transform something into nu metal, IMO.  I don't think those things make them any more nu metal than the fact that they included samples in some I&W and Awake songs and have a semi-rap portion of TDS now makes them a rap band.  But whatever.  If you think differently, that's fine.

Basically that.

There's only one way where I can see DT not being as heavy because of MP's departure; I think the "inspiration corner" was his idea, and it possibly had the occasional heavy metal album in it every now and then. I could be wrong, and if I do, then I don't actually think anything's gonna change.

[Ben_Jamin]

JP did state that the clean parts tone before the first verse in This Dying Soul was inspired by Mudvayne's Cradle.

[MetropolisxPt1]

 Hardly anyone is saying that.  JP wrote the vast majority of the heavy riffs for DT, so there's no reason to think they won't continue to be heavy.

I somewhat disagree.  From everything I have read and seen in interviews, it seems like Portnoy was the guy pushing for DT to be heavier.  I don't remember the other guys talking about "balls and chunk."  Portnoy really strikes me as a trendy person to begin with.  From the 'balls and chunk' comment to his various changes in image over the years (colored beard and hair, tatoos, etc) to his comments regarding James' vocal style not being in line with mainstream music, he just sceams, "I want to be trendy because this is what's popular right now."  And, for the past decade or so, "being heavy" has been really popular. 

I'm not knocking Portnoy, so don't "warn me," please.  No need for that.  I'm just making an observation.  It's Portnoy's right to have whatever image he chooses. 

last time i checked Mp didnt play keys, bass or guitar when did he become the one that made dt heavy. i think you need to brush up on your trends its all about swag right now, MP hasn't  changed his look since 2000.

[orcus116]

Just because he didn't write those parts doesn't mean the rest of the band wasn't encouraged to do so.

[ReaPsTA]

Just because he didn't write those parts doesn't mean the rest of the band wasn't encouraged to do so.

It's odd to me that people still underestimate how much control MP had over the band's sound when everyone involved has said he has a big impact on what's written.

[jonny108]

You just listen to The Making of Falling Into Infinity. Portnoy is telling JP what to play, what exact notes to play on Hells Kitchen.  I'm sure Portnoy had a huge influence on the sound.

[Aniland]

Dream Theater as POWER METAL? LOL

[OsMosis2259]

I think the metal influence will still be there. Just no more growling vocals...

[tgstk2]

panterA nu metal hahaha thats the funny one... Back to skool

Do you think the other people in dt actually listen and enjoy metal?. Do you see jp or driving around listening to goijra?. Somehow that just doenst fit... But that is capable of making great metal parts is a fact

[ReaPsTA]

panterA nu metal hahaha thats the funny one... Back to skool

Do you think the other people in dt actually listen and enjoy metal?. Do you see jp or driving around listening to goijra?. Somehow that just doenst fit... But that is capable of making great metal parts is a fact

I know JP likes Chevelle.

[jmbeat]

MP hasn't  changed his look since 2000

I don't know how to do this so could someone show how much MP has changed since 2000, starting with a SFAM DVD shot

[rumborak]

let's try some semi-scientific analysis (and by semi-scientific, I mean barely scientific and insane):

....

I&W - 4 METAL, 6 PROG, 2 ROCK, 2 metal, 2 prog, 2 rock
....
BCSL - 3 METAL, 4 PROG, 2 metal, 2 prog, 1 rock, 1 ballad

Another scientific rule is "Don't blindly trust your methodology. Make sure your results make sense too".
If you end up proclaiming that IAW Dream Theater is more metal than BSCL Dream Theater, you know something went wrong on the way.

rumborak

[Ultimetalhead]

ITT: People complaining about a progressive metal band progressing.

Also ITT: People upset that a progressive metal band plays too much metal.

[ReaPsTA]

Another scientific rule is "Don't blindly trust your methodology. Make sure your results make sense too".
If you end up proclaiming that IAW Dream Theater is more metal than BSCL Dream Theater, you know something went wrong on the way.

rumborak

Fair to say.  But at the same time, why is SC considered such a metal album in the first place?  Aside from Forsaken (pop-metal), Constant Motion (definitely metal), and TDEN (perhaps trying too hard to be metal), would you really look at any song on SC and say it's a metal song?  ITPOE Pt2 and TMOLS have metal sections, but they're more prog metal than straight up metal.  Repentance I guess is metal with clean guitars, but it's a stretch.  POW is more like the new rock stuff that Muse has popularized.  And ITPOE is more prog metal than metal.

Yeah, SC very intentionally tried to be dark and heavy even when it didn't go to TDEN levels.  PMU just feels more natural than TDEN or CM, no question.  But SC is actually a reasonably balanced CD, and I think it's historical revisionism to act like I&W isn't an extremely metallic record.

[TAC]

Rep, great points. I agree..SC might be one of their most varied album from song to song.

[orcus116]

ITT: People complaining about a progressive metal band progressing.

Also ITT: People upset that a progressive metal band plays too much metal.

What if said band is not really doing well at either?

But at the same time, why is SC considered such a metal album in the first place?

The album just seems to go there. You've got 25 minutes of a brooding "In The Presence of Enemies", 7 minutes of more straightforward "Constant Motion", 9 minutes of very low, chunk riff "The Dark Eternal Night", and 11 minutes of Damnation-like "Repentance" (metal doesn't have to be distorted you know). That's about 3/4 of the album devoted to a clearly darker, not necessarily all heavy, attempt at metal. Plus the overall tone of the album seems to lean that way.

[ariich]

See I don't agree, ToT is their only album that I even remotely see that way. Awake and SDOIT are just as dark as SC and BC&SL. The reason I think people see the latest two albums as more metal is that the first songs we heard from them were CM and TDEN, and ANTR and AROP. And that sticks in people's memories.

[hefdaddy42]

Not worth going off on a huge debate on whether or not DT is "nu metal," but I'll just reiterate that I don't hear it.  Metal?  Yes.  Nu metal?  No.  Downtuning and using a snarly Dimebag guitar tone do not alone transform something into nu metal, IMO.  I don't think those things make them any more nu metal than the fact that they included samples in some I&W and Awake songs and have a semi-rap portion of TDS now makes them a rap band.  But whatever.  If you think differently, that's fine.

Dimebag?  I didn't realize that Pantera was considered "nu-metal."  I was referring to bands like Korn, Limp Bizkit and all those terrible bands that came on the scene in the mid-late 90's that everyone wanted to sound like because they sold millions of records.  And, like I said, it's not just the guitar tone and downtuning.  It's also the vocals and the overall mix (you forgot to include those things in the above paragraph) that make the comparison obvious.  

This, the overall sound of the album is a clear nu-metal influence.  They never became a nu-metal band, but that sound is a clear influence on this album.

[Infinite Cactus]

I agree with the statement that Awake, Images, and even WDADU are just as metal and dark at times as SC, BCSL, and even TOT. The difference is The early albums were Metallica, Iron Maiden, and Queensryche 80's and early 90s metal. The new albums are more Lamb of God, Meshuggah, newer metal. Iron Maiden is Metal and so is Lamb of God. Completely different approach.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

I feel this album is going to be very intense. I really don't know if that "intensity" will translate as heavyness, but I'm sure it will be excellent.

[hacko]

I think the metal influence will still be there. Just no more growling vocals...

And that my friend, is Win.

[lithium112]

I agree with the statement that Awake, Images, and even WDADU are just as metal and dark at times as SC, BCSL, and even TOT. The difference is The early albums were Metallica, Iron Maiden, and Queensryche 80's and early 90s metal. The new albums are more Lamb of God, Meshuggah, newer metal. Iron Maiden is Metal and so is Lamb of God. Completely different approach.

Sometimes I wonder if people actually listen to the bands they compare DT to. What DT song (with the possible exception of like 1 riff in Raw Dog which is marginally similar) can you say is like Meshuggah?

[Nighthawkwill7]

I agree with the statement that Awake, Images, and even WDADU are just as metal and dark at times as SC, BCSL, and even TOT. The difference is The early albums were Metallica, Iron Maiden, and Queensryche 80's and early 90s metal. The new albums are more Lamb of God, Meshuggah, newer metal. Iron Maiden is Metal and so is Lamb of God. Completely different approach.

Sometimes I wonder if people actually listen to the bands they compare DT to. What DT song (with the possible exception of like 1 riff in Raw Dog which is marginally similar) can you say is like Meshuggah?

Listen to TCOT at around 6:48 & 7:03, That sounds pretty Meshuggah to me.

[lithium112]

Listen to TCOT at around 6:48 & 7:03, That sounds pretty Meshuggah to me.

I guess the guitar is somewhat reminiscent but the keyboard melody overtop completely changes the sound IMO. But even so, my main point is that you can't really say "DT are more Meshuggah now" based on like 10 seconds of music. Given the recent popularization of djent I wouldn't be surprised if JP was influenced by the style, but I don't think you can make the claim I was originally disputing.

[Nighthawkwill7]

Listen to TCOT at around 6:48 & 7:03, That sounds pretty Meshuggah to me.

I guess the guitar is somewhat reminiscent but the keyboard melody overtop completely changes the sound IMO. But even so, my main point is that you can't really say "DT are more Meshuggah now" based on like 10 seconds of music. Given the recent popularization of djent I wouldn't be surprised if JP was influenced by the style, but I don't think you can make the claim I was originally disputing.

It's only for a few seconds so it's not saying the whole song is Meshuggah inspired. Just that specific riff in that specific section. TCOT has quite a varied sound throughout, too varied to say it's a just a Meshuggah homage.

[Jamesman42]

Awake and SDOIT are just as dark as SC and BC&SL.

Aside the point of the thread, but how is SDOIT dark? To me, it is a very colorful album, it's overall tone isn't dark to me.

[tri.ad]

I have to agree with James here. While SDOIT definitely contains some dark/bleak spots, I wouldn't say that its general tone is as dark as, say, Awake or SC at all. "Colourful" might be indeed the best word to portray the general mood of this album.

[Infinite Cactus]

I agree with the statement that Awake, Images, and even WDADU are just as metal and dark at times as SC, BCSL, and even TOT. The difference is The early albums were Metallica, Iron Maiden, and Queensryche 80's and early 90s metal. The new albums are more Lamb of God, Meshuggah, newer metal. Iron Maiden is Metal and so is Lamb of God. Completely different approach.

Sometimes I wonder if people actually listen to the bands they compare DT to. What DT song (with the possible exception of like 1 riff in Raw Dog which is marginally similar) can you say is like Meshuggah?

I was referring to that level of heaviness and that was the band I used to describe it. I think you missed the point of my post which was Awake and BCSL are metal. Just not the same type/style of metal.