Official: DTF's song ratings 2011 RESULTS

[ariich]

And the results are in! Here is the final product of this thread: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=22665.0
And for reference, here are the results from 2009: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=8535.0

Some interesting changes have occurred in that year and a half! The Glass Prison has dropped a fair few places, while Learning to Live has shot up to second, almost grabbing top spot! I think we can safely say that the Big Two have become the Big Four. Trial of Tears also just about nudges The Count of Tuscany out of the top 5. Newcomer Raw Dog fails terribly, coming in at #95 and failing to even beat Your Majesty!

Enjoy.

Total number of voters: 85

DTF's 2011 song rankings and average ratings:
1. A Change of Seasons: 9.566
2. Learning to Live: 9.564
3. Octavarium: 9.470
4. Metropolis Pt 1: 9.452
5. Trial of Tears: 9.030
6. The Count of Tuscany: 8.994
7. Voices: 8.894
8. Home: 8.847
9. The Glass Prison: 8.827
10. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence: 8.819
11. In the Name of God: 8.811
12. Take the Time: 8.714
13. Fatal Tragedy: 8.714
14. The Spirit Carries On: 8.654
15. Finally Free: 8.629
16. Lines in the Sand: 8.493
17. Blind Faith: 8.452
18. Overture 1928: 8.440
19. Under a Glass Moon: 8.378
20. Strange déjà vu: 8.339
21. Space Dye-Vest: 8.303
22. The Dance of Eternity: 8.301
23. In The Presence of Enemies: 8.282
24. Wait for Sleep: 8.270
25. Scarred: 8.261
26. Raise the Knife: 8.225
27. A Nightmare to Remember: 8.196
28. Erotomania: 8.141
29. The Mirror: 8.135
30. Lifting Shadows Off a Dream: 8.107
31. Hell's Kitchen: 8.060
32. Surrounded: 8.060
33. Misunderstood: 8.011
34. Eve: 7.974
35. Pull Me Under: 7.929
36. Disappear: 7.928
37. Beyond This Life: 7.916
38. One Last Time: 7.855
39. Stream of Consciousness: 7.817
40. The Great Debate: 7.811
41. The Root of All Evil: 7.785
42. To Live Forever: 7.75
43. 6:00: 7.704
44. These Walls: 7.623
45. Another Day: 7.605
46. Speak to Me: 7.561
47. Wither: 7.547
48. Innocence Faded: 7.5
49. Ytse Jam: 7.479
50. The Killing Hand: 7.479
51. Lie: 7.447
52. Endless Sacrifice: 7.434
53. The Best of Times: 7.410
54. Vacant: 7.403
55. Sacrificed Sons: 7.388
56. Another Won: 7.362
57. The Silent Man: 7.355
58. The Ministry of Lost Souls: 7.352
59. The Shattered Fortress: 7.327
60. Don't Look Past Me: 7.322
61. This Dying Soul: 7.315
62. As I Am: 7.288
63. Peruvian Skies: 7.231
64. A Fortune in Lies: 7.208
65. Caught in a Web: 7.205
66. Honor Thy Father: 7.202
67. New Millenium: 7.195
68. Through Her Eyes: 7.154
69. Afterlife: 7.143
70. The Way It Used to Be: 7.141
71. Hollow Years: 6.987
72. Panic Attack: 6.928
73. The Dark Eternal Night: 6.845
74. Only a Matter of Time: 6.830
75. A Rite of Passage: 6.821
76. Through My Words: 6.790
77. Anna Lee: 6.743
78. Cover My Eyes: 6.731
79. Repentance: 6.688
80. Constant Motion: 6.589
81. Forsaken: 6.529
82. Where Are You Now?: 6.382
83. I Walk Beside You: 6.310
84. The Answer Lies Within: 6.285
85. Take Away My Pain: 6.262
86. Regression: 6.246
87. Never Enough: 6.196
88. The Ones Who Help to Set the Sun: 6.125
89. Prophets of War: 6.090
90. Light Fuse and Get Away: 5.895
91. Status Seeker: 5.775
92. Just Let Me Breathe: 5.728
93. Your Majesty: 5.488
94. Burning My Soul: 5.445
95. Raw Dog: 5.223
96. March of the Tyrant: 5.175
97. A Vision: 5.055
98. Two Far: 4.902
99. Vital Star: 4.888
100. You Not Me: 4.646
_____________________________________

Album averages using regular mean values:
1. Images and Words: 8.497
2. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence: 8.308
3. Scenes From a Memory: 7.990
4. Awake: 7.914
5. Black Clouds & Silver Linings: 7.716
6. Train of Thought: 7.610
7. Octavarium: 7.248
8. Systematic Chaos: 6.911
9. Falling Into Infinity: 6.893
10. When Dream and Day Unite: 6.742

Album averages weighted by song length:
1. Images and Words: 8.687
2. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence: 8.494
3. Scenes From a Memory: 8.283
4. Awake: 8.021
5. Black Clouds & Silver Linings: 7.912
6. Octavarium: 7.837
7. Train of Thought: 7.708
8. Systematic Chaos: 7.286
9. Falling Into Infinity: 7.245
10. When Dream and Day Unite: 6.751
_____________________________________

Top 20 most controversial songs (by standard deviation):
1. Raw Dog: 2.231
2. Regression: 2.175
3. The Dark Eternal Night: 2.139
4. Just Let Me Breathe: 2.134
5. Never Enough: 2.101
6. Prophets of War: 2.091
7. You Not Me: 2.080
8. Disappear: 2.049
9. The Ministry of Lost Souls: 2.001
10. Forsaken: 1.999
11. Repentance: 1.963
12. Through My Words: 1.953
13. Burning My Soul: 1.893
14. Panic Attack: 1.891
15. The Dance of Eternity: 1.873
16. Eve: 1.862
17. Space Dye-Vest: 1.854
18. Constant Motion: 1.807
19. A Vision: 1.783
20. Stream of Consciousness: 1.774

10 least controversial songs:
91. In the Name of God: 1.120
92. Trial of Tears: 1.100
93. The Glass Prison: 1.071
94. Home: 1.035
95. Take the Time: 1.021
96. Fatal Tragedy: 0.988
97. Octavarium: 0.897
98. A Change of Seasons: 0.829
99. Learning to Live: 0.782
100. Metropolis Pt 1: 0.777

[orcus116]

I honestly can't argue with a lot of that except TCOT being so high, but that's to be expected.

[ariich]

I honestly can't argue with a lot of that except TCOT being so high, but that's to be expected.

You said a similar thing last time.

It got a lot of 10s, but then it also got a 2, a 4.5 (yours) and a 5 which brought its average down and pushed its standard deviation up.

[orcus116]

I figured there would've been some cool down with the Black Clouds songs.

[Jaffa]

Home now beats Take The Time, too.  I don't know if/why that matters, but I looked at the 2009 thread and the opposite was pointed out, so I thought I'd point it out. 

[hefdaddy42]

That's one hell of a Top 20. 

[ariich]

I figured there would've been some cool down with the Black Clouds songs.

Well, there very much was, all the other songs fell down the rankings. AROP and Wither dropped 5 places, ANTR and TBOT both dropped 12 places, and TSF dropped 30! But I think you're just going to have to accept that TCOT has become a fan favourite.

EDIT:

Home now beats Take The Time, too.  I don't know if/why that matters, but I looked at the 2009 thread and the opposite was pointed out, so I thought I'd point it out. 

OH MY GOD

WHERE'S DARKES?

[toro]

The top 10 is great

[Tomislav95]

The top 10 is great

Yes, but without Trial of Tears

[Dellers]

I still can't believe why The Glass Prison is so high ranked...Really, not counting the "unreleased" stuff, it's a bottom two song for me. Usually I seem to like pretty much the same as a bunch of people, but everyone seems to dig this song. I just don't get it, the song is freaking boring from start to finish. One of 2/3 really boring songs DT has ever made IMO...

[j]

I didn't submit mine this year, but pretty good results for the most part IMO.

I'm surprised that Scarred isn't one of the "most controversial" songs...isn't it like the classic example of a song people either love or hate?

-J

[ariich]

I didn't submit mine this year, but pretty good results for the most part IMO.

I'm surprised that Scarred isn't one of the "most controversial" songs...isn't it like the classic example of a song people either love or hate?

-J

It seems to have become a bit more popular, it climbed the rankings a bit as well. I think a lot of the "haters" were scared away from the forum.

[tri.ad]

5. Trial of Tears: 9.030
...
30. Lifting Shadows Off a Dream: 8.107

This pleases me.

22. The Dance of Eternity: 8.301

This sickens me.

[yorost]

From the looks of it Systematic Chaos was the most disagreed upon album?  Most of it's songs were in the top 20 for standard deviations.

[Global Laziness]

Thanks ariich! I love to analyze stuff like this!

[tjanuranus]

These walls ranked 44 = me 

[tjanuranus]

Thanks ariich! I love to analyze stuff like this!

Yeah thanks this is bad ass.

[Jamesman42]

Endless Sacrifice, don't worry, you are top 10 material to me baby.

[Global Laziness]

I'm actually surprised at how little the album rankings change "using regular mean values" compared to "weighted by song length".

[Implode]

This is awesome, though almost all of the lists are just as I expected.

[mrjazzguitar]

my reaction / opinion:

I'm glad A Change of Seasons is #1 -- definitely my favorite DT song.

Also glad to see Trial of Tears up there - its always been a top 10 for me.

wonderful Top 20, but how the hell did The Count of Tuscany get up there?! I guess I'm near alone in thinking that the song is pretty average among DT material (I think A Nightmare to Remember is far superior and is easily Top 20 material). It just doesn't sound like DT to me -- some of it does, but too much of it just sounds ilke them emulating some other more popular stuff.

A lot of the rankings in the mid-range are fucked up.

Raise the Knife is constantly overrated. It really isn't that well composed -- while the ideas are there, it is just too disconnected. The Mirror is far superior.

I'm a sucker for Six Degrees Disc 1 -- I'd like to see Misunderstood and The Great Debate higher, and the fact that The Dance of Eternity is rated higher than those is just embarrassing.

The Dance of Eternity rated higher than In the Presence of Enemies?!??!?! Yea, ITPOE isn't ACOS or Octavarium, but it is fucking good. The Dance of Eternity is just stupid. In the last ranking, ITPOE was rated like 25 slots higher than TDOE.

The Best of Times is a shitty song - one of their worst. Its almost a complete rip-off of the Free Willy soundtrack. Those string sounds are just atrocious.

Another note on A Nightmare to Remember: I think it is one of their most well put together songs of recent, but that section near the end with Portnoy's little vocal feature is beyond insipid. Take out that section, and you have a top-notch DT song.

[ariich]

wonderful Top 20, but how the hell did The Count of Tuscany get up there?! I guess I'm near alone in thinking that the song is pretty average among DT material

You, orcus and like three other people.

I'm actually surprised at how little the album rankings change "using regular mean values" compared to "weighted by song length".

Yeah my thoughts exactly. Some of the intervals are a bit different, but the only change in ranking is TOT and Octavarium swapping round.

[Implode]

wonderful Top 20, but how the hell did The Count of Tuscany get up there?! I guess I'm near alone in thinking that the song is pretty average among DT material (I think A Nightmare to Remember is far superior and is easily Top 20 material). It just doesn't sound like DT to me -- some of it does, but too much of it just sounds ilke them emulating some other more popular stuff.

A lot of the rankings in the mid-range are fucked up.

Raise the Knife is constantly overrated. It really isn't that well composed -- while the ideas are there, it is just too disconnected. The Mirror is far superior.

I'm a sucker for Six Degrees Disc 1 -- I'd like to see Misunderstoo and The Great Debate higher, and the fact that The Dance of Eternity is rated higher than those is just ridiculous.

The Dance of Eternity rated higher than In the Presence of Enemies?!??!?! Yea, ITPOE isn't ACOS or Octavarium, but it is fucking good. The Dance of Eternity is just stupid.

The Best of Times is a shitty song - one of their worst.

I think you're in the minority in all those opinions.  

[RuRoRul]

Not on The Dance Of Eternity being better than ITPOE he isn't. 

Not mentioned is that In The Name Of God fell 3 places and out of the top 10, which is a poor result 

Also the reason for some oddities in the results (like The Dance Of Eternity being better than In The Presence Of Enemies) is that a negative vote counts more than a positive vote...  since the average rating looks like about 7.5, if you don't like a song you have the power to give it essentially a negative 7, where as if you love it you can only give it +2.5... Doesn't really mean anything just why I think you will see songs that most people think are average beating songs that plenty of people think are good / amazing but other people detest (read, most modern DT stuff).

Surprised to see The Spirit Carries On and Finally Free in the top 15. Top ten seems like a pretty good representation though.

[mrjazzguitar]

wonderful Top 20, but how the hell did The Count of Tuscany get up there?! I guess I'm near alone in thinking that the song is pretty average among DT material (I think A Nightmare to Remember is far superior and is easily Top 20 material). It just doesn't sound like DT to me -- some of it does, but too much of it just sounds ilke them emulating some other more popular stuff.

A lot of the rankings in the mid-range are fucked up.

Raise the Knife is constantly overrated. It really isn't that well composed -- while the ideas are there, it is just too disconnected. The Mirror is far superior.

I'm a sucker for Six Degrees Disc 1 -- I'd like to see Misunderstoo and The Great Debate higher, and the fact that The Dance of Eternity is rated higher than those is just ridiculous.

The Dance of Eternity rated higher than In the Presence of Enemies?!??!?! Yea, ITPOE isn't ACOS or Octavarium, but it is fucking good. The Dance of Eternity is just stupid.

The Best of Times is a shitty song - one of their worst.

I think you're in the minority in all those opinions.  

I don't think so, and I think if more people voted, I absolutely would not be. I, for instance, did not vote - I hardly spend any time on the board anymore.

[Implode]

a negative vote counts more than a positive vote...  since the average rating looks like about 7.5, if you don't like a song you have the power to give it essentially a negative 7, where as if you love it you can only give it +2.5... Doesn't really mean anything just why I think you will see songs that most people think are average beating songs that plenty of people think are good / amazing but other people detest (read, most modern DT stuff).

True. Very true.

I don't think so, I think if more people voted, I absolutely would not be. I, for instance, did not vote - I hardly spend any time on the board anymore.

Well there may be a lot of people who share your thoughts, but I still doubt they'd be in the majority...

Not on The Dance Of Eternity being better than ITPOE he isn't. 

Except that.

[mrjazzguitar]

a negative vote counts more than a positive vote...  since the average rating looks like about 7.5, if you don't like a song you have the power to give it essentially a negative 7, where as if you love it you can only give it +2.5... Doesn't really mean anything just why I think you will see songs that most people think are average beating songs that plenty of people think are good / amazing but other people detest (read, most modern DT stuff).

True. Very true.

I don't think so, I think if more people voted, I absolutely would not be. I, for instance, did not vote - I hardly spend any time on the board anymore.

Well there may be a lot of people who share your thoughts, but I still doubt they'd be in the majority...

agreed.

[CrimsonSunrise]

Well done Ariich    I agree with the top section, with the exception of TCOT, like someone mentioned, ANTR too me is much better.  The one that kills me is You not me...I just don't get the hate for that song.  It would be in the middle for me.  Anna Lee would be probably on the bottom for me.  It's interesting to see how the individual song list translates too album popularity.

[Jaffa]

These walls ranked 44 = me  

Seconded.

EDIT: On the other hand, in my votes I ranked eleven songs as 9.5 or 10, and ten of those are in the top twenty of the results (the other being SoC).  So, coolio.

[Riceball]

If its OK to post, I've done some manipulations of the results to standardise each users average; reducing the influence of those people who got ten-happy. Or those morbid people that gave out lots of twos and ones.

For example, the 46th result-giver had an average score of 9.18 for his songs, and the 75th user had an average of 5.77. So, by weighting their responses based on the users overall deviation from the average, you get an alternative list.

Don't want to post it unless its ok to do so though!

[RG93]

Very nice top 10, although I feel that there might be what is known as "respondent effect" (some people's rankings might be affected by others)

[yorost]

If its OK to post, I've done some manipulations of the results to standardise each users average; reducing the influence of those people who got ten-happy. Or those morbid people that gave out lots of twos and ones.

For example, the 46th result-giver had an average score of 9.18 for his songs, and the 75th user had an average of 5.77. So, by weighting their responses based on the users overall deviation from the average, you get an alternative list.

Don't want to post it unless its ok to do so though!

I don't see what's wrong with posting it.  It's not like you'd be insulting anyone since there isn't a right way to compile the results.  As you point out pure average is flawed, and your way is flawed since some people simply like the music more than others so are bound to have different averages.  It's all good, you put the work into it you might as well share it.

[j]

Riceball, I'd be interested in seeing that.  It seemed like a fair number of people were either way too generous or unnecessarily stingy.

Although I guess since there wasn't an established standard to rate against, some big deviations should be expected.

-J

[inoku]

kinda surprise, but a good surprise to see trial of tears is on no. 5 
ToT is on my top 10 also.
but seeing Scarred at 25 

[Riceball]

Ok, here is the adjusted list. What I think it shows is that people agree on the real top shelf songs, and those which aren't that great, but when it comes to those in the middle there is quite wide ranging opinion. I've bolded the ones I think are most interesting:

1. Learning to Live: 9.593 (+1)
2. A Change of Seasons: 9.562 (-1)
3. Octavarium: 9.503 (+0)
4. Metropolis Pt 1: 9.464 (+0)
5. Trial of Tears: 9.091 (+0)
6. The Count of Tuscany: 8.999 (+0)
7. Voices: 8.962 (+0)
8. Home: 8.851 (+0)
9. The Glass Prison: 8.832 (+1)
10. In the Name of God: 8.818 (-1)
11. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence: 8.775 (+0)
12. Take the Time: 8.711 (+1)
13. Fatal Tragedy: 8.710 (-1)
14. The Spirit Carries On: 8.635 (+0)
15. Finally Free: 8.569 (+0)
16. Lines in the Sand: 8.533 (+0)
17. Blind Faith: 8.436 (+0)
18. Overture 1928: 8.402 (+0)
19. Under a Glass Moon: 8.356 (+0)
20. Space Dye-Vest: 8.354 (+0)
21. Strange déjà vu: 8.323 (+0)
22. The Dance of Eternity: 8.273 (+0)
23. Scarred: 8.255 (+1)
24. In The Presence of Enemies: 8.254 (-1)
25. A Nightmare to Remember: 8.231 (+0)
26. Wait for Sleep: 8.222 (+0)
27. Raise the Knife: 8.222 (+0)
28. Lifting Shadows Off a Dream: 8.147 (+2)
29. Erotomania: 8.143 (-1)
30. The Mirror: 8.109 (-1)
31. Hell's Kitchen: 8.082 (+1)
32. Surrounded: 8.063 (-1)
33. Eve: 8.031 (+1)
34. Misunderstood: 7.984 (-1)
35. Pull Me Under: 7.905 (+1)
36. Disappear: 7.872 (-1)
37. Beyond This Life: 7.870 (+0)
38. One Last Time: 7.822 (+0)
39. To Live Forever: 7.805 (+3)
40. The Root of All Evil: 7.763 (+1)
41. Stream of Consciousness: 7.735 (-2)
42. The Great Debate: 7.718 (-2)
43. 6:00: 7.692 (+0)
44. Speak to Me: 7.645 (+0)
45. These Walls: 7.599 (+0)
46. Another Day: 7.534 (+0)
47. Wither: 7.474 (+0)
48. Innocence Faded: 7.469 (+0)
49. Ytse Jam: 7.448 (+0)
50. The Killing Hand: 7.440 (+1)
51. Lie: 7.407 (-1)
52. Don't Look Past Me: 7.380 (+4)
53. Endless Sacrifice: 7.374 (-1)
54. The Silent Man: 7.357 (+4)
55. Vacant: 7.342 (-2)
56. The Best of Times: 7.341 (-3)
57. Sacrificed Sons: 7.309 (-2)
58. Another Won: 7.303 (-1)
59. The Shattered Fortress: 7.285 (+0)
60. The Ministry of Lost Souls: 7.271 (+0)
61. As I Am: 7.259 (+1)
62. This Dying Soul: 7.246 (-1)
63. Peruvian Skies: 7.215 (+0)
64. The Way It Used to Be: 7.214 (+1)
65. New Millenium: 7.199 (+1)
66. A Fortune in Lies: 7.180 (-2)
67. Honor Thy Father: 7.148 (+1)
68. Caught in a Web: 7.134 (-1)
69. Through Her Eyes: 7.079 (+0)
70. Afterlife: 7.047 (+0)
71. Hollow Years: 6.944 (+0)
72. Panic Attack: 6.859 (+0)
73. The Dark Eternal Night: 6.784 (+0)
74. Cover My Eyes: 6.777 (+3)
75. A Rite of Passage: 6.769 (-1)
76. Only a Matter of Time: 6.751 (-1)
77. Anna Lee: 6.742 (+1)
78. Through My Words: 6.697 (-2)
79. Repentance: 6.610 (+0)
80. Constant Motion: 6.550 (+0)
81. Forsaken: 6.396 (+0)
82. Where Are You Now?: 6.324 (+0)
83. Take Away My Pain: 6.228 (+2)
84. I Walk Beside You: 6.211 (-1)
85. The Answer Lies Within: 6.210 (-1)
86. Regression: 6.123 (+0)
87. Never Enough: 6.063 (+0)
88. The Ones Who Help to Set the Sun: 6.063 (+1)
89. Prophets of War: 5.993 (-1)
90. Light Fuse and Get Away: 5.819 (+0)
91. Status Seeker: 5.682 (+0)
92. Just Let Me Breathe: 5.653 (+0)
93. Burning My Soul: 5.387 (+1)
94. Your Majesty: 5.364 (-1)
95. March of the Tyrant: 5.234 (+0)
96. Raw Dog: 5.120 (+0)
97. A Vision: 5.108 (+0)
98. Vital Star: 4.974 (+0)
99. Two Far: 4.950 (+0)
100. You Not Me: 4.562 (+0)