Unreleased Dream Theater?

Dream_Theater01 · February 22, 2011, 01:00:04 PM

Does Dream Theater have vaults of unreleased material? I'm new here, so please forgive me if this has been discussed before. Thanks!

The Letter M · February 22, 2011, 01:06:32 PM

The closest things that DT have to "unreleased" material, as far as studio-recorded tracks, were all released on the 1999 DTIFC (Dream Theater International Fan Club) CD, Cleaning Out The Closet. It featured tracks that were B-sides to their 2nd, 3rd and 4th albums.

A few of those tracks saw release on various singles, but the FII B-sides were pretty much exclusive to COTC. However, DT played both "Speak To Me" and "Raise The Knife" on the Octavarium Tour, both of which were B-side from Falling Into Infinity, and the latter of which was captured on the SCORE album/video.

Beyond that, whatever DT has written in the studio was all they have used, from album-session to album-session. Because they write "in the studio" and record almost immediately afterward, there's usually nothing "leftover" in terms of original material. This has been the way they've done things since Jordan joined the band for SFAM.

They have done alternate takes and versions, though, as evidenced by the JLB/JR-only version of "Wither" released on that song's EP. They also have release demos, like JP's demo of "Wither" and MP's demo of "The Best Of Times", but again, these are all just alternate/early versions of songs we got, not songs that haven't been released.

-Marc.

bosk1 · February 22, 2011, 01:11:02 PM

I believe the band has made several statements in the past that a lot of unreleased studio material exists, but almost nothing else that has been worked up into a complete song (other than what has been released as B-sides and on fanclub and/or Ytsejam releases). There are some alternate versions of demos and some Charlie-era demos of material that has not been released, but as far as I know, that's it for completed songs. So as far as studio material, the answer is "yes" and "no."

As far as live material, there is a ton in the vault. Since the vault was maintained by Mike when he was in the band, it will be interesting to see what does and does not get released in the future.

robwebster · February 22, 2011, 01:11:34 PM

Special mention to be made, of course, for Raw Dog, which they wrote the January after BCSL came out, and it was released on a compilation album in association with the PS3.

I think the total list of non-album tracks is as follows...

Don't Look Past Me
To Live Forever (two different versions - '91 and '94)
Eve
Raise the Knife
You Or Me
Where Are You Now?
The Way it Used to Be
Speak to Me
Cover My Eyes
Burning My Soul '96 (semi-counts... a primordial version of Burning My Soul, which featured Hell's Kitchen spliced into the centre and intro)
Metropolis Pt. 2 (much of which was salvaged to create SfaM)
Raw Dog

There's also a primordial version of Hollow Years knocking about which has got an added bridge before the choruses, but it generally stays faithful to the original.

Don't think I'm missing any, but correct me if I'm wrong.

bosk1 · February 22, 2011, 01:15:47 PM

Pretty good list, Rob. There are lots of different versions of songs floating around as well, as I mentioned above. And, come to think of it, there may be more covers out there that were done in studio. I'm not 100% sure about that, but the fact that there are some Charlie demos of covers leads me to speculate that there may be others they did where the tape machine was rolling. There's probably a lot more singer audition material than was released on the Ytsejam releases as well.

It would be interesting to see a "complete" list, but I doubt anyone other than Mike Portnoy has the ability to compile such a list. It wouldn't surprise me if no one else alive, including the other band members, definitively knows the universe of what exists.

robwebster · February 22, 2011, 01:21:18 PM

Oh crikey, yeah. Oodles of wee oddities - as you say, a universe of the buggers. Is anyone else familiar with Long Island Expressway? I remember I used to have it in like 2005 and then I lost it somewhere. Sort of an acoustic version of Lie. Took me ages to work out the initials spelt out "LIE," at that.

They've got a cover of YYZ knocking about (think it might be from the Majesty days), O Holy Night... there's a cover of Tears by Rush kicking about somewhere or other, too. Loads of stuff. And yeah, I'm sure most of the band don't even remember half of it.

Must be a wealth of material tucked away in MP's archives that we've never heard about.

EDIT: Here we go, Long Island Expressway if you've not heard it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcrh5lL2mzk Not released commercially, so it's kosher. Really cool track.

bosk1 · February 22, 2011, 01:23:15 PM

Quote from: robwebster on February 22, 2011, 01:21:18 PMIs anyone else familiar with Long Island Expressway?

Off the top of my head, I can't remember whether I have it, or if I've just heard of it. I think I actually have a copy, but come to think of it, that might be just wishful thinking based on the fact that I've heard about it.

Dream_Theater01 · February 22, 2011, 02:44:20 PM

Quote from: robwebster on February 22, 2011, 01:21:18 PM
Must be a wealth of material tucked away in MP's archives that we've never heard about.

Would Dream Theater be allowed to release it though? Since Mike isn't in the band anymore.

Samsara · February 22, 2011, 04:25:55 PM

Quote from: Dream_Theater01 on February 22, 2011, 02:44:20 PM
Quote from: robwebster on February 22, 2011, 01:21:18 PM
Must be a wealth of material tucked away in MP's archives that we've never heard about.

Would Dream Theater be allowed to release it though? Since Mike isn't in the band anymore.

It'll be interesting to see. I can guarantee you this...MIKE, legally, should know he can't. Because if he is not a band member, but now has recordings OF the band, even if he wanted to, he'd need to pay them royalties to release that material legally.

As for DT...I would expect/assume that if they care enough, their reps have already let MP know that he cannot release anything without their express permission.

Dimitrius · February 22, 2011, 05:04:24 PM

Rob's list is pretty much it, but if you want to get really technical... I guess the Majesty Demos count as unreleased.

rmp0012002 · February 22, 2011, 05:47:59 PM

MP recorded everything and collected everything he could of DT, bootlegs and such, so he has tons of stuff. The band hated that he released those fan club cd's for free so it comes down to who owns them and/or who is entitled to royalties from their release. If Mike owns the material outright he can do whatever he wants with it.

Dream_Theater01 · February 22, 2011, 06:48:34 PM

Well, there is probably half-finished songs and finished songs they haven't recorded laying around in the vaults, right?

darkshade · February 22, 2011, 07:24:35 PM

just wanted to add that on Live Scenes From New York, they play SFAM in its entirety, and the end of Finally Free, which is the last song on the studio album, has a formal ending, as opposed to the studio version which fades into the sound effects and eventual static.

The Letter M · February 22, 2011, 07:56:49 PM

Quote from: darkshade on February 22, 2011, 07:24:35 PM
just wanted to add that on Live Scenes From New York, they play SFAM in its entirety, and the end of Finally Free, which is the last song on the studio album, has a formal ending, as opposed to the studio version which fades into the sound effects and eventual static.

If you get The Making Of Scenes From A Memory from YtseJamRecords, you'll hear on the alternate mixes of the whole album that at the end of "Finally Free", you can hear what the band actually plays to the end, after they faded out on the original. It's nothing spectacular like the coda they did live, but it's interesting none the less.

-Marc.

DarkLord_Lalinc · February 22, 2011, 08:03:16 PM

I think everything that needed to be said has been said.

The Letter M · February 22, 2011, 08:16:22 PM

To add to Rob's list, if we're counting altered songs, like "Burning My Soul '96", you could also count "Hollow Years" and "Lines In The Sand", as well as "Take Away My Pain", which have all been played live in versions that deviate from their studio counterparts in some way or another, usually taking pieces from their original demo versions (found on the FII Demos from YtseJamRecords).

Also, the original version of "The Mirror" was 10 minutes long and included "Lie" as an extended middle instrumental section.

There's also the original demo of "Pull Me Under", which included part of "Erotomania" in the middle section, which sounded VERY weird.

-Marc.

FretMuppet · February 23, 2011, 02:33:48 AM

Quote from: Dream_Theater01 on February 22, 2011, 06:48:34 PM
Well, there is probably half-finished songs and finished songs they haven't recorded laying around in the vaults, right?

Yeah, this is probably the case too... Raw Dog was apparently made from ideas that didn't make it into BC&SL, so surely they have some bits of songs from previous album sessions that they didn't use

Nihil-Morari · February 23, 2011, 02:44:47 AM

ACOS 1989 and ACOS 1993 count too then right?

Apart from that, I believe we have most tunes, oh and 6:00 had a different name too right?

YtseJamittaja · February 23, 2011, 04:08:52 AM

Quote from: Dimitrius on February 22, 2011, 05:04:24 PM
Rob's list is pretty much it, but if you want to get really technical... I guess the Majesty Demos count as unreleased.

Yeah Rob, you forgot Majesty demos.

ReaperKK · February 23, 2011, 04:35:10 AM

I'm sure there is plenty of unreleased material, I'd imagine most bands that have been around some time have songs in their respective vault.

Dream_Theater01 · February 23, 2011, 06:41:09 AM

Quote from: FretMuppet on February 23, 2011, 02:33:48 AM
Quote from: Dream_Theater01 on February 22, 2011, 06:48:34 PM
Well, there is probably half-finished songs and finished songs they haven't recorded laying around in the vaults, right?

Yeah, this is probably the case too... Raw Dog was apparently made from ideas that didn't make it into BC&SL, so surely they have some bits of songs from previous album sessions that they didn't use

Would they be able to release song ideas, and half-finished songs?

bosk1 · February 23, 2011, 06:53:45 AM

Quote from: rmp0012002 on February 22, 2011, 05:47:59 PMThe band hated that he released those fan club cd's for free so it comes down to who owns them and/or who is entitled to royalties from their release.

And where does this bit of information come from?

Dream_Theater01 · February 23, 2011, 07:55:18 AM

I'm not a fan of fan club releases. I'm not in any fan clubs, and everyone deserves to get the material.

The Letter M · February 23, 2011, 08:05:24 AM

Quote from: Dream_Theater01 on February 23, 2011, 07:55:18 AM
I'm not a fan of fan club releases. I'm not in any fan clubs, and everyone deserves to get the material.

Well, SOME of the Fan Club material has been released to the general public via YtseJamRecords. As far as I know, they've released The Making Of Falling Into Infinity, which was their 1997 Fan Club CD. Also, the FII Demos contain rougher-sounding demo versions of the FII B-sides that made it on to COTC. The other songs on COTC have also made it onto other Demos CDs, albeit in other forms/versions, but those other songs are on there, except "Eve", but there's a live version of that on the Dream Bill/3-4-93 live soundboard bootleg.

-Marc.

hefdaddy42 · February 23, 2011, 08:45:35 AM

Quote from: bösk1 on February 23, 2011, 06:53:45 AM
Quote from: rmp0012002 on February 22, 2011, 05:47:59 PMThe band hated that he released those fan club cd's for free so it comes down to who owns them and/or who is entitled to royalties from their release.

And where does this bit of information come from?

This. Not sure what you're talking about.

bosk1 · February 23, 2011, 09:03:03 AM

Quote from: Dream_Theater01 on February 23, 2011, 07:55:18 AM
I'm not a fan of fan club releases. I'm not in any fan clubs, and everyone deserves to get the material.

How do you figure? The material is a special bonus for those in the fan clubs. If you want it, join the fan clubs. It's as simple as that. I'm not a member either, which means I am not entitled to the material and will not be complaining about it.

The Letter M · February 23, 2011, 09:25:04 AM

Precisely, and while I wasn't a member, I have sought out and paid (sometimes a lot of) money to obtain many of the DTIFC CDs/DVDs, which in the end, is probably worth it considering their short production runs and whatever the costs there were to join any of the DTIFC's out there.

You get what you pay for, so if you paid to be in the fanclub, the CDs/DVDs were a part of that. It's a treat for being part of the fan clubs, and those who paid their dues got their gifts.

-Marc.

robwebster · February 23, 2011, 09:46:12 AM

I will say that one of the nicest things about being in the fanclub is forgetting that you're in it, until one day a bit of free music arrives on your doorstep unannounced.

I didn't realise I was still a member by the time the Images and Words Anniversary CD rolled around. Delightful little album. Makes the slightly slipshod organisation of Voices UK (not that I blame them - they're working their wee arses off!) a sort of blessing in disguise. Getting a CD you know you've signed up for is cool enough, but having it arrive out of the blue is even better.

noxon · February 23, 2011, 11:27:54 AM

The claim that the band hated the fanclub releases because they weren't paid is ridiculous. The fact is, they DID get paid. For every release we did, we paid the required royalties that went along with releasing the material. The reason for this is that you cannot get a CD or DVD printed at a professional pressing plant and such. For A Walk Beside The Band (which I personally handled), we printed 5000 copies, and paid 9000 dollars in royalties. Not much, but still not free! The band also knows that the fanclub cds were "upkeep promotion" to their hardcore fans, who already have paid out of their asses to buy every release and merchandise out there, go to every show, and so forth.

Also, the band was MORE than accommodating when we made that DVD, and did not once show any reaction as though they didn't like what we were doing. They've all been there for us, and have provided us with access and (last time, Jordan came up to our preshow party and held a brief signing session and q&a, and we've had meet&greets for the fanclub EVEN if the band also had their own paid meet&greets.

RaiseTheKnife · February 23, 2011, 01:28:07 PM

i think you guys might be forgetting "Autumn Moon." I think it was written by Kevin Moore while he was still in dream theater (during the I&W sessions?) It is a stunningly beautiful and short piano piece.

Also, along with "Long Island Expressway" there is "Freeport Jam." Lastly, there is the guitar work that JP did for Sega Saturn game (Necronomicon, I think)

When I heard that FII was supposed to be a two disc release, I searched various websites in '97 and found the above tracks.

bosk1 · February 23, 2011, 01:58:31 PM

Quote from: noxon on February 23, 2011, 11:27:54 AM
The claim that the band hated the fanclub releases because they weren't paid is ridiculous. The fact is, they DID get paid. For every release we did, we paid the required royalties that went along with releasing the material. The reason for this is that you cannot get a CD or DVD printed at a professional pressing plant and such. For A Walk Beside The Band (which I personally handled), we printed 5000 copies, and paid 9000 dollars in royalties. Not much, but still not free! The band also knows that the fanclub cds were "upkeep promotion" to their hardcore fans, who already have paid out of their asses to buy every release and merchandise out there, go to every show, and so forth.

Also, the band was MORE than accommodating when we made that DVD, and did not once show any reaction as though they didn't like what we were doing. They've all been there for us, and have provided us with access and (last time, Jordan came up to our preshow party and held a brief signing session and q&a, and we've had meet&greets for the fanclub EVEN if the band also had their own paid meet&greets.

Thanks, Noxon. I was pretty sure that claim was B.S., so thanks for confirming (and thanks for all the hard work you do over there).

FretMuppet · February 23, 2011, 02:14:02 PM

Quote from: RaiseTheKnife on February 23, 2011, 01:28:07 PM
i think you guys might be forgetting "Autumn Moon." I think it was written by Kevin Moore while he was still in dream theater (during the I&W sessions?) It is a stunningly beautiful and short piano piece.

Where can we find this Autumn Moon piece? It seems very rare...

DarkLord_Lalinc · February 23, 2011, 02:14:54 PM

Never heard of it. $:-\$

FretMuppet · February 23, 2011, 02:20:01 PM

Just stumbled upon this... I have no idea whether these are real or not. Some say tracks like Autumn Moon are fake...

https://myspot.neteze.com/~space/cds/dreamth2.htm

Nihil-Morari · February 23, 2011, 02:21:51 PM

I have! It's on a bootleg called 'The Darkest of Winters', I believe, which is a collection of rarities.

EDIT: I don't even have it anymore, I believe $:-\$

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Unreleased Dream Theater?