Will Fans Ultimately Be Disappointed With DT11?

[darkshade]

someone said this at JP's forum

SC got criticized so much because at the time Mike got everyone hipped up with a comment like, "it's going to be our next I&W" or something to that effect and also James said that he hadn't had this much fun recording an album since Awake. So everyone was expecting an I&W/ Awake and they got something completely different.
It's not that SC is a bad album, it's just that when you get everyone one's hopes up for a great album there are going to be a lot of disappointments because people create a mental image of what the album is going to sound like and when they actually hear it, it's nothing like they imagined.
I think the same thing is going to happen with the new album. All the prog fans are getting super excited because the "metal head" of the band left, so they are expecting, once again, an I&W.

do you see the new album being the next SC in terms of criticism? so many people have hyped up this new album, that hasn't even been recorded yet, in their minds, that nothing will be good enough. This reminds me of the discussion about how Portnoy wasn't the only metalhead in the band.

i only hope that JP (and whoever else) will be cautious in hyping up the new album before its release. Especially with the new drummer and all. But who knows, MP did go around saying BC&SL was the next ACOS/TGP/8V/LtL all in one package.

how do you see this all going down?

[Adami]

I don't think peoples criticisms of SC have anything to do with the hype built aorund it.

DTs new album will obviously be criticised by some fans, and praised by others. As far as I go, I don't care about the hype.

To sum up, if they write a good album I will like it. If they don't, I will not.

[Perpetual Change]

Like all Dream Theater albums, this one will at least be decent. But fans on the internet will be disappointed when they realize it's more or less like the last two. And most fans from the normal world will be happy enough knowing that it's still more or less like the last one.

[orcus116]

SC wasn't criticized because it couldn't live up to hype, it was criticized because it's not that good of an album.

And people have really got to stop with the "fans just want another I&W" thing. We want another Awake, too.

[darkshade]

see i try not to pay much attention to hype and i was still a little let down after the 'new album buzz' from SC died down. i didnt get that from ToT, 8V or BC&SL (the only NEW albums for me since becoming a fan). im also not a SC-hater, it just put me off for months and months until i heard a new album was coming out in BC&SL. over time ive seen the magic in SC, but it took a very long time.

i think the new drummer will have a lot to do with it. BC&SL had some detractors, but from what i saw, most people at least found it somewhat enjoyable. i think no matter what the band writes, a good portion of fans will have their problems with it. Either the drums dont feel Dream Theater-y enough, or too much JR (if only...), not enough Myung  , and too much like a mix of JP and JR solo albums, with JLB on vocals.

i dont know, just speculating.

[orcus116]

Well when I got into the band sounding "Dream Theater-y" was completely undefined since no album up to that point (right before TOT) sounded the same or even had the same style of songwriting, if you want to look at it like that. Even Train Of Thought and Octavarium were respectively different but once the next two albums came out that Dream Theater sound seemed to be cemented. I'd love for the new drummer to bring back that old "wow this sounds completely new" aspect to their music.

[darkshade]

Well when I got into the band sounding "Dream Theater-y" was completely undefined since no album up to that point (right before TOT) sounded the same or even had the same style of songwriting, if you want to look at it like that. Even Train Of Thought and Octavarium were respectively different but once the next two albums came out that Dream Theater sound seemed to be cemented. I'd love for the new drummer to bring back that old "wow this sounds completely new" aspect to their music.

honestly i think they might. Ive seen JP and JR messing around with new toys and sounds (though id like to see new scales, modes and chords played around with too, maybe new influences, but i digress) in addition to the new drummer. So im sure it wont be in line with SC and BC&SL, which, though there are some similarities sonically, are IMO, 2 completely different albums. (BC&SL being a little more symphonic overall, due to the keys, and the guitars are heavier)

[Perpetual Change]

Well when I got into the band sounding "Dream Theater-y" was completely undefined since no album up to that point (right before TOT) sounded the same or even had the same style of songwriting, if you want to look at it like that. Even Train Of Thought and Octavarium were respectively different but once the next two albums came out that Dream Theater sound seemed to be cemented. I'd love for the new drummer to bring back that old "wow this sounds completely new" aspect to their music.

Eh, I think Systematic Chaos really sounds a lot different from previous DT albums. It was a bit of a gamble for them. I know not everyone likes it,  butI do feel like they were taking some chances their on doing different things. For me, Black Clouds is the first real album where I don't hear as many new ideas.

[rumborak]

DT have a unique opportunity for a fresh start with MP's departure. If the next album is just business as usual, I'm probably done with them.

rumborak

[LKap13]

Eh, I think Systematic Chaos really sounds a lot different from previous DT albums. It was a bit of a gamble for them. I know not everyone likes it,  butI do feel like they were taking some chances their on doing different things. For me, Black Clouds is the first real album where I don't hear as many new ideas.

I agree with this, though ANTR had some fresh elements to it (blast beat and gothic/symphonic metal intro or w.e you want to call it).

The idea of this thread has popped into my mind many times. The fact is, I've been looking forward to the following album since the Octavarium days, hoping the band's direction would change. I've only recently come to terms with the fact that DT will never write another Awake or I&W. As much as we perennially think "Oh the last one wasn't, but this is the one right here; this is where they write the I&W pt. 2", it won't happen. First of all, it's become clear that DT has no interest in regressing to previous styles, a notion that is both disappointing and honorable at once; they truly define the word progressive. Second of all, the album would never sound like an I&W or Awake simply because of the way albums are produced nowadays (thanks to DTF for enlightening me about dynamic range and compression etc.). Lastly, I do believe that JR's extreme virtuosity and talent precludes him from composing parts that would be conducive to I&W-like material. That kind of stuff requires atmospheric and melodic chordal progressions, as well as more conventional patches (shoutout to KM, but let's not be bitter).

On the other hand, an album like SDOIT, while not Awake or I&W, is still a masterpiece. I can only hope that the next DT album will be a musically stimulating and enjoyable one, but my hopes of a return to 1994 have gone. It's hard to admit this to myself when DT is the only band I'm interested in...
(well OK I'll spin Symphony X or Tool once in a blue moon).

To answer the question more directly, yes I do think the next album will be a disappointment to most fans because I don't see their style changing much.

[darkshade]

Eh, I think Systematic Chaos really sounds a lot different from previous DT albums. It was a bit of a gamble for them. I know not everyone likes it,  butI do feel like they were taking some chances their on doing different things. For me, Black Clouds is the first real album where I don't hear as many new ideas.

I agree with this, though ANTR had some fresh elements to it (blast beat and gothic/symphonic metal intro or w.e you want to call it).

The idea of this thread has popped into my mind many times. The fact is, I've been looking forward to the following album since the Octavarium days, hoping the band's direction would change. I've only recently come to terms with the fact that DT will never write another Awake or I&W. As much as we perennially think "Oh the last one wasn't, but this is the one right here; this is where they write the I&W pt. 2", it won't happen. First of all, it's become clear that DT has no interest in regressing to previous styles, a notion that is both disappointing and honorable at once; they truly define the word progressive. Second of all, the album would never sound like an I&W or Awake simply because of the way albums are produced nowadays (thanks to DTF for enlightening me about dynamic range and compression etc.). Lastly, I do believe that JR's extreme virtuosity and talent precludes him from composing parts that would be conducive to I&W-like material. That kind of stuff requires atmospheric and melodic chordal progressions, as well as more conventional patches (shoutout to KM, but let's not be bitter).

On the other hand, an album like SDOIT, while not Awake or I&W, is still a masterpiece. I can only hope that the next DT album will be a musically stimulating and enjoyable one, but my hopes of a return to 1994 have gone. It's hard to admit this to myself when DT is the only band I'm interested in...
(well OK I'll spin Symphony X or Tool once in a blue moon).

To answer the question more directly, yes I do think the next album will be a disappointment to most fans because I don't see their style changing much.

if this band were to do anything like that, it'd be to try to recreate some of the magic of SFAM and SDoIT but obviously not make Six Degrees Pt. 2 or something like that. But more of the drive, energy, and renewed sense of power in the music, with some experimentation and kind of going all out; show the world they've still have what it takes. not sure if this will happen or not.. 

[Daso]

The new album will get bashed a lot because of the lack of Portnoy on it. As Labrie said, all of the remaining members are very capable, and the new drummer will be too, indeed. What I mean with it getting bashed because of the lack of Portnoy is that several diehard, uncomprehending fans will say the album sucks or is not good just because they have the mental block that Portnoy is not in there, or they will blame all small faults (and increase them to huge) on the new drummer, therefore the album will be criticized a lot.

But I think it will be good. We will get more participation of the other members in both composition and most likely playing.

[atmyne]

Even if Portnoy had not left, people will still be dissapointed in the 2011 album. I got so hyped up for BC&SL. The way that the teaser had been put together, it sounded like the album was to be god-like. And in conjunction with Portnoy stating that it was to be like "the glass prison, octavarium, pull me under, learning to live etc.", this confirmed that this really was going to be one of their best works to date. Well, I eventually was dissapointed with it. It had its high points, and I still give it a listen every now and then, but it didn't exactly align itself with my expectations. So the lesson here is not to take any puffery stated by the band seriously, and do not base an expectation off teasers etc.
I don't think the drummer will have any more of a negative impact on the album, at least for me anyway. But, as stated previously, people who have these mental blocks because they cannot accept the lack of Portnoys presence will add to the list of people who will be dissapointed with the new album. The only expectation I have is that Petrucci and Rudess, and hopefully JMX too, will really step it up to make it awesome.

[Deez]

how do you see this all going down?

Well the band doesn't actually have an album tp hype yet.

First, the new drummer.  I think that whoever they get will determine the fan reaction to the next album.

With Portnoy out of the band, however, the hype machine will certainly take a different approach.  Portnoy was the "mouth" of the band, no?  (Though never pay attention to the hype machine, every album will always be the best, loudest, heaviest, blah blah blah to dateand sounds JUST LIKE popular album X.  I mean after all, who wants to hear something like, "Well it's a pretty good album, not as good as the last one, but we hope you all buy it anyway.")

Though personally I don't pay that much attention to hype.  DT is one of my favorite bands, but I came to the conclusion years ago that they put out their consistently best work years ago.  For me, everything after Six Degrees has been a mixed bag.  But I do still look forward to their announcement on the new drummer and to the new album after that.  DT still has many surprises up their sleeve.

[Gorille85]

My hopes are not very high for the next album. I'm a bit curious to see what it's like though.

[yeshaberto]

I'm nervous, but I'm sure they will come thru.  I am sad at the thought of a DT w/o MP, but I don't think I will end up disappointed

[SnakeEyes]

I hate to say this, but it's the truth - my expectations are pretty low.  A small part of me, and I mean a very small part of me, hopes that DT will make Images & Words part 2 (not literally, but I mean another classic like that, and I DON'T mean that sounds like that album, either).  However, I just don't see it happening, at least not with this album.  But, who knows..... maybe they'll surprise the hell out of me. 

[Lowdz]

I'm not even slightly apprehensive. I'm not a hyper-critical person and DT are my favourite band for a reason: I like their stuff. I take each album as a seperate entity and there has always been plenty to enjoy, even on the albums I rate as less God-like than the others.
Plenty of people will criticise the new album for a multitude of reasons. You only have to read the posts here about what we want from a DT album, the new drummer, more prog/less prog, etc to know that it is impossible to please all the fan base (unless you are AC/DC).
Just give me the best DT album you can with plenty of classic showing off and I will be happy.
But no growls please... see I'm doing it now!

[kartmaze2]

I believe the next album will be the same quality-wise as the last two albums, though perhaps (and hopefully) a bit different style-wise. Decent for DT-standard (still pretty high IMO), but no DT classic. I will not be disapointed if that's the case, it's just my expectations, and I will enjoy it as I enjoy every other DT album. Then again, if DT11 proves to be of I&W/Awake/SFAM/6DOIT standards, I will just get really positively surprised. 

[Jamesman42]

Eh, I don't spend time thinking about this sort of stuff that much (except for SC I did, but that was my first "new" DT CD and MP did hype that up a lot). With BC&SL, I was like "whatever" and ended up loving that album (still do).

I find that music is better enjoyed without going in with these speculations. Sure, to every single person the music will be good or bad or somewhere in between, but sometimes I think that peoples' expectations of new releases affect the over all music experience.

[IdoSC]

I never read anything James or Mike said about SC before (quite a new DT fan, only listening to them since 2009), and I still thought SC was DT's weakest album to date, or maybe 2nd weakest album to date (considering you don't count FII but you do count the FII Demos).

So yeah, maybe people are hoping for too much (e.g. "now that Mike left, they won't be as heavy as they've been lately" and other b/s), but in my opinion a good modern DT album, like BCSL, will get the positive feedback it deserves either way.

[Dublagent66]

We really don't need this kind of negative speculation.  Nobody knows what the new album will be like.  Give them a chance to record and release it and save the criticism for later. 

[dethklok09]

as far as i've noticed i'm just hoping they clean up their lyrics.if you listen to the instrumental parts of the last two albums, they are actually very diverse and creative. i think the let down has been the cheesy lyrics, so if they clean those up im sure people wont be too dissapointed.

[LKap13]

Yea, if there were one piece of advice I could give the band about lyrics it would be this: Your lyrics don't have to make logical sense, just make sure they are very symbolic and metaphorical. If you analyze the band's lyrical shortcomings in the latest releases you will see that they have sacrificed symbolism/metaphor/abstractness for lyrics that tell a story/actually make logical sense. Lyrics tend to sound better when grandiose and symbolic, not straightforward.
Prime example is Voices by Petrucci. The lyrics are awesome even though nobody really knows what half of it means...

[Stoneyman]

We will see plenty of the following responses after the new stuff comes out:

1.  It is the greatest DT EVER!  Portnoy who?

2.  It sucks, DT needs Portnoy back!

But I think it will somewhere in between for many of us.  This album will redefine DT as we know it IMO. 

Most fans (drummers or not) will be listening to that first track to hear the flavor of the new guy.  I dont expect sequels to SFAM or 6DOIT, but I do expect them to focus on trying something different.  When DT has HAD to change and grow, they have seemed to do just that.

The mood of the last few DT releases have seemed patterned and kinda formulaic (IMO).  And to some degree they seem overcooked with metalness and shredtastic behavior.  If we all can generally agree that SFAM and 6DOIT are classics, maybe ask why? 

SFAM and 6DOIT have an atmospheric quality and thematic airy approach to them that really plays to DT's strengths.  JP and JP know that fans like these cd's probably more than others.  MP sure knew what we all warmed to, and that was probably why when comparing stuff he always used the songs/cds we all accepted as great stuff. 

Maybe DT should stick to writing about themes???  Themes seem to make them write "deeper."  For me 6DOIT was a masterpiece in every way.  Some of the epics that are thematic seem to work well too.  If we all agree that their best stuff after I&W and Awake (which I dont expect they will ever be able to replicate with the new band) was ACOS, SFAM, 6DOIT, and some of the epic songs over the last few cd's, it shows that when DT writes about themes they please us more.  Not saying that what we want should drive the band's writing, but it would make sense that the band sees "why" we all hold that stuff in high regard.  It obviously strikes a chord with fans.

All told, I expect a damn good cd.  JP and JR will make sure of it.

[ariich]

I don't think peoples criticisms of SC have anything to do with the hype built aorund it.

DTs new album will obviously be criticised by some fans, and praised by others. As far as I go, I don't care about the hype.

To sum up, if they write a good album I will like it. If they don't, I will not.

I agree with every single word in this post.

Especially "the".

[Jamariquay]

If there are any 10+ minute long songs that attain that length largely through an extended instrumental break punctuated by an exchange of guitar and key solos over a recurring bass riff.... I will be disappoint.

Unless it's like Blind Faith. Then I'll be retroactively typing this sentence one handed.

[tumbok]

I don't expect much of DT11. But anyway, I have been a fan since 1999 and never got satisfied or enough listening to their every song. And now, DT don't do jamming as intense as those years back of their early years. You won't expect masterpiece comes only by a month creating music in a studio, do you?

[Stoneyman]

If there are any 10+ minute long songs that attain that length largely through an extended instrumental break punctuated by an exchange of guitar and key solos over a recurring bass riff.... I will be disappoint.

Unless it's like Blind Faith. Then I'll be retroactively typing this sentence one handed.

+1  To fully symbolize what that one "busy" hand will be doing.  LOL

[Adami]

I also hope they lost the long instrumental break with trade off guitar/key solos ending in a unison thing.

I mean, isn't the band bored of that by now? How interesting could it possibly be?

[Stoneyman]

I don't expect much of DT11. But anyway, I have been a fan since 1999 and never got satisfied or enough listening to their every song. And now, DT don't do jamming as intense as those years back of their early years. You won't expect masterpiece comes only by a month creating music in a studio, do you?

I have always marveled at how DT can churn out cds in relatively short periods of time in the studio.  It shows how talented they are to be able to show up without a lot of pre-production/demos and create in the studio.

It would be cool to what they come up with if they really take their time and try to not do it the way they always have.

If JP is really demo-ing now then we may be in for some cool new DT

[Bone_Daddy]

The mood of the last few DT releases have seemed patterned and kinda formulaic (IMO).  And to some degree they seem overcooked with metalness and shredtastic behavior.  

This. And I believe this is the influence and control of MP. There was nothing organic about the last few DT releases.

So now, with the current changes... there is hope.

"It's time to pick up the pieces.
Go back to square one.
I think it's time for a change."

[Stoneyman]

I also hope they lost the long instrumental break with trade off guitar/key solos ending in a unison thing.

I mean, isn't the band bored of that by now? How interesting could it possibly be?

With the exception of the unison is This Dying Soul, what song really "needs" a guitar/keyboard unison run?

Maybe they could add the extra solos and unison runs live to add some spice?  Keep the songs spacey and delicious in the studio LOL.

[Adami]

I also hope they lost the long instrumental break with trade off guitar/key solos ending in a unison thing.

I mean, isn't the band bored of that by now? How interesting could it possibly be?

With the exception of the unison is This Dying Soul, what song really "needs" a guitar/keyboard unison run?

Maybe they could add the extra solos and unison runs live to add some spice?  Keep the songs spacey and delicious in the studio LOL.

That's the problem, not only do they add crazy amounts of solos on studio releases, they add even MORE live.

[Bone_Daddy]

It would be cool to what they come up with if they really take their time and try to not do it the way they always have.

This.