Quick boring poll...

[BRGM]

I think both are really good, but Black clouds may be a little better

[Stoneyman]

Voted for Black Clouds..

I just remember listening to ITPOE part 1 on the way home from Best Buy and thinking that SC could actually be the best DT yet.  Then I was like WTF the rest of the way.

Too much cheese/campyness (sp) on both records.  Both cd's had a very forgettable quality to them, whereby I didnt really listen to them very much after the first few weeks it was released.  I very rarely listen to either cd front to back, just mostly picking and choosing the tunes I like.  Every release prior to the 2 latest cds I can listen to front to back.

I dont know why but I get the feeling with SC & BC&SLs that those records are aimed at younger kids for some reason.  No slam against younger fans, its just that it seems like much of that stuff was aimed at "trying" to get younger listeners into DT by beeing all vampire, growly, and over the top heavy in spots.
Not that trying to gain new/younger fans is bad too, It just feels sorta forced (on purpose) ya know.

[Darkes7]

And where exactly did they try to aim the albums at younger kids, other than writing the last two steps about alcoholism, a song being a reflection on war, one being about writer's block and one in honour for father who died?... And also, yet again pushing the borders of number of songs/album length ratio making them, especially BC&SL, even more radio-friendly.

[orcus116]

I can definitely see what he means since a lot of their metals sections on those albums come across as all flash, no substance. The riffing is very basic and the solos seem to be built more on technicality than anything else.

[ShadowWalker]

When I heard 8V, I didn't think DT could get any worse. They proved me wrong with SC. BC&SL at least has some enjoyable moments, and if taking into consideration the covers disc (better than either SC or the original material on BC&SL, IMHO) BC&SL wins for me...

[Daso]

I do prefer BC&SL by far. I just like about 5-6 songs from SC, while I like 5 from BC&SL. 83.3% of the album beats 62.5% 

[Stoneyman]

And where exactly did they try to aim the albums at younger kids, other than writing the last two steps about alcoholism, a song being a reflection on war, one being about writer's block and one in honour for father who died?... And also, yet again pushing the borders of number of songs/album length ratio making them, especially BC&SL, even more radio-friendly.

Maybe I need to clarify.  It didnt have much to do with themes of the songs, but as what Orc said in that they sound (to me IMO) flashy for the sake of flashyness.  Hard to explain really.  Heavy balls and chunk thrown in when it doesnt always fit.  Unison runs that dont always fit.  Songs being several minutes longer than they should be just to add more solos.  That kind of thing.

I guess we can pick Nat sh1t out of pepper here if we really wanted to.  The last 2 records (FOR ME) sound forced and intentionally over-performed at times.  Its sorta like DT started reading press about how great of players they are, and started needing to show off or something.

No biggie.  Carry on.

[Darkes7]

After these 4-5 years I still can't see how the recent albums have any more "unnecessary solo sections" or anything like that than the early ones. I can't find a single reason why e.g. Metropolis instrumental section is any more necessary than TMOLS or ANTR other than personal preference with added ideology.

[KevShmev]

Also, a major point of contention: The Count of Tuscany is extremely overrated in my opinion. It's their most disappointing final product; that is, when I heard the first three minutes of it, I was like "Holy shit, this is going to be better than Images". To my major chagrin, as soon as the power chords started and the song moved towards the verses, all that ripe potential was essentially torn away. After the masterful intro, TCOT becomes extremely stagnant, boring and altogether too straightforward to be called a "prog epic".  I often wish the band could go back and take the song in a completely different direction after the intro. Thoughts?

Even though I like it, the 4 to 10 minute section could have been better.  I'll put it this way: if that 6-minute section been as great as the rest of the song, it would be a top 10 DT song.  I even like the power chords and the verses there, but the chorus is rather pedestrian.  So, in a sense, I see what you mean, even though I think it is still a very good song overall.

Oh, and to answer the poll question, this is easy: BC&SL.

[orcus116]

After these 4-5 years I still can't see how the recent albums have any more "unnecessary solo sections" or anything like that than the early ones. I can't find a single reason why e.g. Metropolis instrumental section is any more necessary than TMOLS or ANTR other than personal preference with added ideology.

It's something you just have to hear I suppose. My biggest gripe is that pretty much every solo from both Petrucci and Rudess is interchangeable with any other solo on those albums. There is such a sameness to them.

[Perpetual Change]

Yeah, the frequency of soloing hasn't really changed. But the pattern has become pretty stale. I read in a recent interview that John thinks so too, though, so hopefully we'll see some new song structures next time.

[Stoneyman]

After these 4-5 years I still can't see how the recent albums have any more "unnecessary solo sections" or anything like that than the early ones. I can't find a single reason why e.g. Metropolis instrumental section is any more necessary than TMOLS or ANTR other than personal preference with added ideology.

Agree to disagree.

When in Rome

[LKap13]

Yeah, the frequency of soloing hasn't really changed. But the pattern has become pretty stale. I read in a recent interview that John thinks so too, though, so hopefully we'll see some new song structures next time.

Can you link to that interview?

[KevShmev]

Yeah, the frequency of soloing hasn't really changed. But the pattern has become pretty stale. I read in a recent interview that John thinks so too, though, so hopefully we'll see some new song structures next time.

I can't remember if it was during the SC or BC&SL sessions, but I remember Petrucci saying that he was tired of their standard solo section that always featured back-to-back guitar and keyboard solos.  I am sure he'd like to get back to sometimes having that solo spotlight on a regular basis, which I don't see anything wrong with.  Plus, given how mediocre JR's solos often are, they can sometimes overshadow a previously great JP solo, thereby dragging the entire instrumental section down, and then making JP's solo seem somehow not as good. 

[Global Laziness]

Pretty sure that was during the Black Clouds sessions.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

About the "writing for kids" thing:

I don't think it was one of their main objectives when making BC&SL, but considering Portnoy admitted to putting distorted vocals in "The Dark Eternal Night" to give younger people something to listen to, it's not implausible he put harsh vocals in "A Nightmare to Remember" for the same reason.

[Stoneyman]

And to add yet some more light to what I said about DT writing for the younger generations, I guess I felt that a band that has had a 20 plus year career adding all of the "influence" into their music to mix things up seemed like a bit of reach.  Muse elements and then growling vocals for an established prog/metal band suddenly just kinda irked me I guess.  My question was WHY? LOL

Imagine if Yes or Genesis started being influenced by newer bands and started growling and jumping out of their perceived character.  That is how it FELT FOR ME!  My next irrational belief was that since newer/younger metal bands are into growling and such, that DT was reaching for those younger kids to inject more interest in DT.  NOTHING IS WRONG WITH THAT.  And DT is certainly entitled to write whatever they feel at the time.

BUT!  It FELT TO ME like a marketing move rather than a logical shift in their style.  Whats logical for DT I cant say, it just kind of seemed like a shift.  Flame all you want, but DT going from Trial of Tears to "Everyone survived, roooooaaaarrrrr!" puts a stamp on the quality of DT material lately.

[LKap13]

I agree with you Stoneyman. On the other hand, 2005 brought us Octavarium, which is a top 5 DT song, and Systematic Chaos brought us ITPOE pt. 1 and Repentance, both of which are very contained and mature songs. This is not to mention TCOT which is lauded by the community as being a top track (I personally disagree with this assessment but that's not the point). One of the most apparent trends in recent DT is the desire to make a well-rounded album. Innevitably, this will include radio-friendly singles.
If there's one thing I always remind myself when I get down on the new DT material, it's that the band has shown an unprecedented ability to PROGRESS over time. I can't think of any other band that has been able to produce such high level music in the process of constantly advancing and changing their style. It's truly an amazing feat! (I'm open to suggestions here, are there other bands that have changed their sound over time like DT has, and stayed good?)
When all's said and done, Awake and Images & Words trump SC and BC&SL by a long, long shot, but it's still cool to hear the new stuff. And of course we all (in the same vein as religious people awaiting their messiah) await the next album as if it were going to be the best one yet (for me, this is not just this time around with the new drummer situation, but every time).
Long live DT!

[Stoneyman]

I agree with you Stoneyman. On the other hand, 2005 brought us Octavarium, which is a top 5 DT song, and Systematic Chaos brought us ITPOE pt. 1 and Repentance, both of which are very contained and mature songs. This is not to mention TCOT which is lauded by the community as being a top track (I personally disagree with this assessment but that's not the point). One of the most apparent trends in recent DT is the desire to make a well-rounded album. Innevitably, this will include radio-friendly singles.
If there's one thing I always remind myself when I get down on the new DT material, it's that the band has shown an unprecedented ability to PROGRESS over time. I can't think of any other band that has been able to produce such high level music in the process of constantly advancing and changing their style. It's truly an amazing feat! (I'm open to suggestions here, are there other bands that have changed their sound over time like DT has, and stayed good?)
When all's said and done, Awake and Images & Words trump SC and BC&SL by a long, long shot, but it's still cool to hear the new stuff. And of course we all (in the same vein as religious people awaiting their messiah) await the next album as if it were going to be the best one yet (for me, this is not just this time around with the new drummer situation, but every time).
Long live DT!

Well stated.

Dont get me wrong, they have made some awesome stuff along the way.  I am still a DT diehard, and I will be there to buy the new stuff and buy the ticket to the concert.

I try not to blame my own personal musical growth and tastes on DT mixing things up.  I criticize them but its out of love ya know LOL!

[darkshade]

I agree with you Stoneyman. On the other hand, 2005 brought us Octavarium, which is a top 5 DT song, and Systematic Chaos brought us ITPOE pt. 1 and Repentance, both of which are very contained and mature songs. This is not to mention TCOT which is lauded by the community as being a top track (I personally disagree with this assessment but that's not the point). One of the most apparent trends in recent DT is the desire to make a well-rounded album. Innevitably, this will include radio-friendly singles.
If there's one thing I always remind myself when I get down on the new DT material, it's that the band has shown an unprecedented ability to PROGRESS over time. I can't think of any other band that has been able to produce such high level music in the process of constantly advancing and changing their style. It's truly an amazing feat! (I'm open to suggestions here, are there other bands that have changed their sound over time like DT has, and stayed good?)
When all's said and done, Awake and Images & Words trump SC and BC&SL by a long, long shot, but it's still cool to hear the new stuff. And of course we all (in the same vein as religious people awaiting their messiah) await the next album as if it were going to be the best one yet (for me, this is not just this time around with the new drummer situation, but every time).
Long live DT!

true, but i think this may be the most anticipated DT release since SFAM, or SDoIT

[Perpetual Change]

Yeah, the frequency of soloing hasn't really changed. But the pattern has become pretty stale. I read in a recent interview that John thinks so too, though, so hopefully we'll see some new song structures next time.

I can't remember if it was during the SC or BC&SL sessions, but I remember Petrucci saying that he was tired of their standard solo section that always featured back-to-back guitar and keyboard solos.  I am sure he'd like to get back to sometimes having that solo spotlight on a regular basis, which I don't see anything wrong with.  Plus, given how mediocre JR's solos often are, they can sometimes overshadow a previously great JP solo, thereby dragging the entire instrumental section down, and then making JP's solo seem somehow not as good. 

Sadly, for every Blind Faith keyboard solo there's another dive-bomb solo.

[orcus116]

Or ten.

[Perpetual Change]

I think the rate of good and band Jordan solos is pretty much 50:50. Of course, the guy can't play anything without someone getting their panties up in a bunch.

[orcus116]

His non-stop legato style seems to sound best on an actual piano, which he rarely uses for solos. On a keyboard it's either his grating lead tone, pitch bend, wonky new patch or some combination of those.

[Perpetual Change]

His non-stop legato style seems to sound best on an actual piano, which he rarely uses for solos. On a keyboard it's either his grating lead tone, pitch bend, wonky new patch or some combination of those.

I know what lead tone you're talking about and I don't like it much either, but aside from that: if he even uses the pitch bend or a weird patch it's automatically considered bad? The solos in HTF, Octavarium and the end of ITPOE pt II are IMO three more great examples of JR winning.

Also, why won't you accept my friend request on last.fm? And why is constant motion so high on your plays? 

[orcus116]

I uh...













* deletes last.fm *

[Perpetual Change]

[Jamesman42]

My bet is Orcus was working with KevShmev to criticize the song on the internet. Gotta do your research.

[jsem]

BCSL easily. TCOT > entire SC

[orcus116]

I honestly didn't know I even listened to it that many times ever.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

Orcus... You have some serious explaining to do.

[orcus116]

I'VE DONE SOME THINGS I'M NOT PROUD OF OK

[King Postwhore]

I'VE DONE SOME THINGS I'M NOT PROUD OF OK

This line works so well with your avitar.

[Rina]

I'VE DONE SOME THINGS I'M NOT PROUD OF OK

This line works so well with your avitar.

Also, I'm laughing about how this was a "Quick" poll originally. 

[lateralus88]

Black Clouds has 6 fantastic songs on it. Not a dull moment if you ask me. Systematic Chaos has Forsaken and that wacky, out of place instrumental in The Ministry of Lost Souls.

Black Clouds wins.