Just got "Lifting Shadows". Extraordinary!

[Jarlaxle]

Why couldn't there possibily be something that turned their luck around that I hadn't heard of before? Can you tell me you've read every (auto)biography ever written and finished it thinking, "wow, I was not expecting that," or "hmm, I was hoping for more"

[Perpetual Change]

I was pretty pleased with the book. The obvious area where it could have used vast improvement was responses from Kevin Moore, though that's obviously not Rich Wilson's fault.

[SnakeEyes]

I haven't even read the book and even I think the part about DT almost firing LaBrie makes the book worth it. 

[Dream Team]

I haven't even read the book and even I think the part about DT almost firing LaBrie makes the book worth it. 

Ironically, one of the reasons was they wanted him more involved in the writing process; yet on BC&SL they wrote the whole thing without him and he didn't even get a chance to contribute lyrics. 

[orcus116]

I guess John and Mike already had lyrical ideas in mind when they were writing the music.

[Ben_Jamin]

I swear dream theater would be better if they let him write

[Jarlaxle]

Same with Myung

[Ben_Jamin]

Kevin Moore was their best writer

[Perpetual Change]

I guess John and Mike already had lyrical ideas in mind when they were writing the music.

That's a damn shame.

[TL]

Guys, we all know that Chris Collins wrote the best DT material. Come on.

[j]

I swear dream theater would be better if they let him write

LaBrie's latest lyrical effort was Prophets of War, remember?

In my opinion, nobody in DT is what I would call a good lyricist.  Each of them have written some great stuff--even masterpieces--but they've also each put out quite a bit of crap.  With the obvious exception of Myung, but since he hasn't really written anything since FII (I don't count Fatal Tragedy), I can't comment either way.

-J

[Jarlaxle]

Same with David Prater

[hefdaddy42]

Why couldn't there possibily be something that turned their luck around that I hadn't heard of before? Can you tell me you've read every (auto)biography ever written and finished it thinking, "wow, I was not expecting that," or "hmm, I was hoping for more"

I have no idea what you're talking about.

[MykeHavoc]

Why would you not count Fatal Tragedy?

[Global Laziness]

Why would you not count Fatal Tragedy?

Yeah, was wondering that myself.

[Martinman300]

Cos the lyrics on it were creatively inhibited by the story they had to follow.

[MykeHavoc]

...so why does that make it not count as a writing contribution?

[j]

Martinman's right.  Of course it still technically "counts", I just don't consider it a completely original creative work by Myung because of the massive constraints.

-J

[MykeHavoc]

Well that's worded better

It' not really fair to dismiss it entirely though. We really have no idea how inspired his other lyrical essays were by others.
For all we know, someone could've said "hey John, write a song about a guy getting AIDS" and then he went and wrote LTL.

[bosk1]

I'm with MykeHavoc.  It completely is a lyrical contribution, and it's a good one.  There really isn't anything more to make of the situation than that.

[orcus116]

No. We need to keep this going for no reason whatsoever.

[hefdaddy42]

*keeps it going*

[Rafael Guerra]

Man, this thread took an interesting direction...

[Perpetual Change]

Fatal Tragedy is a great song, musically and lyrically...

[j]

Fatal Tragedy is a great song, musically and lyrically...

For the record, I think so too.  I just don't see it as a completely genuine, unbridled "John Myung original" lyric, because he had to write narrative lyrics for a set piece of a story that was already defined.  I'm not sure what it is about that that is difficult to understand.   (not directed at you PC)

-J

[Perpetual Change]

I can see how you might think it's not Myung writing at his maximum potential, but if that's the case you should have said that!

I'm just a little annoyed that DT fans seem to make certain situations out to be some kind of elixir that'll solve all the so-called "problems" with modern DT. Like people think Dream Theater would produce albums like Images and Awake again if John Myung contributed more, or if they had a producer, etc. The fact is, Dream Theater have rode a particularly sucessful wave both creatively and commercially (for a prog band) for quite some time now, and maybe we need to acknowledge that they're not perfect and, like every other band that's ever existed, prone to having problems meeting our expectations regardless.

To illustrate, there was definitely a time around FII where most of the fans wanted to see as much Mike Portnoy involvement as possible. And we got it! And now look how some fans feel about that!

[orcus116]

You're right, they're not perfect but it's becomingly seemingly more evident, at least to me, that with each new release we're not getting so much excellent songs and dud songs and things in between but more complete songs that contain those elements within itself. There are spots that don't work as well as they should as well as spots that soar, though only for a few minutes at a time, and that is where I think they need that extra set of ears to say "Hey guys that sounded great! Maybe try working off a variation for later on." or "That section doesn't really work at all. Maybe try to rework the whole thing". I say the latter especially because I remember Mike relaying that story about the gruff vocals in ANTR and it pretty much sums up the decision making vibe I'm getting in that they're way more adept to say "Oh well, just pick the one that works the best" instead of "Maybe this doesn't really work at all. Rewrite?".

[bosk1]

Well, that particular section is definitely polarizing, but I don't think that's a bad thing.  More fans like it than don't--it's just that those who don't, don't like it A LOT.  But, to me, that is an example of the process within the band absolutely working.  Mke made a suggestion.  They tried it three different ways, and Mike, James, and John got together and Mike was overruled on the one he liked best, and what we got was, IMO, the superior version, which I (and others) happen to like considerably (except the RAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWRRRRRRRRR!!!! at the end, but...).

[orcus116]

Fair. I'm just wondering if the thought of scrapping the section and writing even came up. Rumborak mentioned that about the time Mike's thread came about. I still admire that they sat down and tried so many new approaches but there is always that other option.

[Perpetual Change]

I agree for the most part. In the Presence of Enemies is a great example of that. I used to have a version where I used audacity to cut it up into the 5 parts, and I found myself much more capable of enjoying the song as a whole when I could skip the two parts before the finale.

But I'm not sure-- realistically-- how much can be done about that. The way I see it, Dream Theater have put out many, many good albums, and probably more actual good music than many of their influences like Yes and Rush, if you take into account that those classic-rock albums were half as long. I just don't expect them to be able to pull off the same things anymore. And, frankly, as someone who admittedly likes prog-metal, I'm perfectly OK with admitting to myself that I like the new Dream Theater for different reasons than I like the old Dream Theater. The old Dream Theater put out genre-defining records that were also beautiful artistic statements. The new Dream Theater are a damn well above average prog-metal band.  I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm able to appreciate DT much more when I suspend my previous expectations.

I mean, let's look at Dream Theater's contemporaries. Fates Warning, Queensryche, etc,. Things could be A LOT worse for us.

(Edit: Just saw Bosk's post)

Oddly, that section is an example for me of everything that's a disappointment about DT (which is good, since it means the disappointment lasts what? 15 seconds of a 15 minute long song?). I mean, James had a decent vocal part, Mike wanted to growl it instead, they tried doing some weird two-part vocal thing, and, in the end, wound up compromising everything in order to put out something that still might be digestable for most fans. Here, I want to say that I wish DT would have taken more chances with that part, but I'm not sure how I would have felt about MP growling it anyway. I think I agree with orcus here, in the sense that I feel like they could have stepped back and said "maybe we could just cut straight to that instrumental section instead."

[j]

Good post.  I have trouble putting aside my expectations at times, and that probably hinders my enjoyment of more recent DT (and a good deal of other music).

-J

[KevShmev]

I have never thought the Portnoy vocal part in ANTR is as bad as others do, but it is not particularly good either.  Musically, it is, but vocally, not so much.  Sure, it might have been the best of the three possibilities they came up with, but when none of them are really good at all, that isn't saying much.  That section begged to be scrapped, rewritten and improved, but it almost seemed like they had put too much work into it to just throw it away, so they went with the least worst of the three.  If nothing else, they should have at least had Akerfeldt do that part (whether it was growled or sung harshly), like was considered.