A Hypothetical: Derek Sherinian in modern DT

[Perpetual Change]

Here's my attempt at stirring up a discussion that's a little bit different.  I'm sure this is old hat for some of the old fogeys here, but I'm also sure that it's something that hasn't been talked about for awhile.  What do you think about Derek's fit with Dream Theater? Here's my take:

There's a lot of discussion about whether Dream Theater's output was better with Jordan Rudess or Kevin Moore at the keys, but I think the potential the band had with Derek is often understated. For one, his contributions on Falling Into Infinity are spectacular, and they can hardly be construed as the weak point of the album. Secondly, he has a great personality, and brought a lot of humor and character to the band. Finally, he's basically what I see as the perfect mix between Kevin and Jordan. Unlike Kevin, Derek can be flashy and jam out when required.  However, Derek also has an amazing sense of atmosphere, which can be heard on Trial of Tears and Lines in the Sand. I will say, however, that Jordan also has an amazing sense of atmosphere, except that he's hardly utilized as such and is often buried in the mix when he does play that way.

There's at least a couple reasons why he didn't work. Here are some that I've come up with: 

1.) His personality. Obviously, while he brought a lot of character to the band, he also lived a "rock star" kind of lifestyle which sort of went against Dream Theater's otherwise "family man" band expectation.
2.) His live performance. From listening to boots and stuff, it's pretty easy to tell that Sherinian's handling of Dream Theater's work was kind of sloppy. Kevin Moore wasn't the greatest live player, either, but as Dream Theater became a band increasingly known for displaying their chops it became necessary to get someone a little bit more reliable.
3.) He was a scapegoat. After the critical failure of FII, fans outlashed against Derek. This was partly because he had big shoes to fill, obviously, but I think it was also due to the fans not really understanding the inner mechanics of the band. His personality, again, was also a little bit of a turn-off to the fans.

Here's a couple reasons why I think he could work now:

1.) For some reason, I don't see his personality as being a huge issue anymore. For one, he seems a lot less flamboyant than he did back in the day. Secondly, all the guys in Dream Theater seem to be going for a much more "rock and roll" image nowadays, and I could see Derek pulling that off pretty well.
2.) His live performance has improved immensely. This should be pretty obvious. Anyone who's kept up with his post DT career-- or at least listened to WDADRU-- knows that he's improved exponentially since he was canned. I don't think he'd have a problem pulling off most of Dream Theater's stuff now, except for maybe Jordan's most challenging parts.
3.) Fans simply don't hate FII as much as they used to. That, and Jordan's already become such a scapegoat that I don't see how Derek would make things any worse. 

Now, I'm not proposing that Dream Theater sack Jordan and go back to Derek. I don't think that would ever happen, unless Jordan couldn't continue with Dream Theater for some reason. And, even then, I wonder how willing Derek would be to join back, or whether the other guys in Dream Theater would ask him to join at all.

What I am proposing, however, is for the DTF community to imagine what Dream Theater would sound like if Derek were still at the keys.

As far as I'm concerned, Dream Theater would be much more convincing as a "contemporary" prog-metal act with Derek on the keys. Something about Rudess seems to "age" the band (not HIS age, because he's not really that much older than DT's oldest member, LaBrie), simply because in interviews and promos and so on he doesn't seem nearly as willing or interested in heavy music as the rest of the guys, who all seem pretty much in agreement that Dream Theater should continue to sound contemporary. But I'm not sure I'd want to trade in Rudess' prog credentials for Derek's flair. Right now, I'm convinced that if not for Jordan, Dream Theater would have fallen way out of the realm of "progressive" on the last two albums.

Remember, this is completely hypothetical. A way to have some fun, I guess, musing over what Dream Theater would/could be with Derek still at the keys.  It's not meant at all to slight any of the current or past members, especially Jordan, who, I hope, if he manages to read this, will not be offended by us talking hypotheticals about the person Dream Theater could have married before they got cold feet. 

[BRGM]

Man I would read that wall of text if it wasn't 1½ hour after midnight <yaaaaaaaaawn>

[Orbert]

I'm trying to come up with something to say that doesn't dissolve into the old Derek vs KM vs Jordan debate, and it's tough.  Derek was and still is my favorite DT keyboard player, despite his relatively short tenure with them.  Jordan obviously has immense talent as a player and soundsmith, but most of the time he's either playing stuff that's so far out there that I think WTF? or essentially playing the part of a second guitarist.  A lot of Jordan's solos sound like what a guitarist would play in the same situation, except that it's being played on keys.  Derek and JP played off of each other in much more the way I feel a keyboardist and guitarist should, complimenting each other and each playing to their strengths.  In other words, Derek actually filled the role of keyboardist in a band the way I prefer it.  Rather than moments of "Oh cool, a weirdass keyboard part", everything blended together much better.  There was more of a feeling that all members were contributing musically than what we have now.

So... that was then.  If Derek were in the band now, I would hope that the dynamic were similar.  Derek has matured a lot as both a player and a person, and I agree that DT seems to have a different attitude now about... attitudes.  I don't listen to DT nearly as much now as I did five years or more years ago, and that's largely because I find what they're doing now to be boring, even as the band sees itself as taking more risks and taking things farther. 

If Derek were in the band now, there's a good chance that I'd like them better and listen to them more.

[Rafael Guerra]

lol, i just read it. Its an interesting discussion. I haven't really checked out Derek's recent stuff, so I can't tell if he has improved or not, but hypothetically speaking it COULD work, but nevertheless I think the "chemical equation of DT" would be unbalanced, since JR would be hypothetically gone. On the other hand, hypothetically speaking, the writing chemistry of the band would have some perhaps positive changes. For example, in FII, JM gave incredible contributions perhaps because Moore was gone and Mike was going through an emotion turmoil, so the songwriting relied more on the old JM-JP style (please correct me if I am wrong...I'm just assuming this). Perhaps with Derek in the band just playing more atmospheric style, the songwriting chemistry would rely more on MP, JM or JP. It's all hypothetical, of course, but yeah...I personally would NOT like to happen though, JR is too awesome!

[hefdaddy42]

I would definitely be interested in hearing how they would have worked out with him.  I completely get what Orbert is talking about.

[Seventh Son]

Its definitely interesting, that much can be said. And I agree, Falling Into Infinity was probably as good as it is because of Derek, not despite him.

[LKap13]

Hmm... this is a tough one.
I think SFAM, SDOiT, and ToT are as good as they are because of Rudess's virtuosic and interesting keyboard playing. When JR employs the grand piano patch and some other unique patches (like Misunderstood), his composing is up there with Moore. In Octavarium, there wasn't much standout keyboard material with the exception of Octavarium the song, which is a Jordan masterpiece. However, SC and BC&SL feature a lot of what I would consider to be bad keyboard parts. JR's patches have recently sounded very new-age-electronic and like "insects", as opposed to the older patches which were more synth and clean piano. Also, where JR is superior in technique, he lacks in melody. From what I can hear, KM and DS were both more melodic keyboard composers, and to be honest, seeing where these last 2-3 albums have gone, I wouldn't mind to see JR switched for DS and I would kill to see him switched for KM! I can't begin to say how much of a genius Moore was.
I often wonder what the album after Awake would have been had he stayed with the band...

[Rina]

Its definitely interesting, that much can be said. And I agree, Falling Into Infinity was probably as good as it is because of Derek, not despite him.

[Perpetual Change]

I wouldn't mind to see JR switched for DS and I would kill to see him switched for KM! I can't begin to say how much of a genius Moore was.
I often wonder what the album after Awake would have been had he stayed with the band...

Just for the record, I'm hoping this doesn't turn into a JR vs. KM debate. If anything, at least it could be a JR vs. DS debate, or even a DS vs. KM debate. But, like I said in the beginning, it's not really intended to be either. And it's especially not intended to be the usual JR vs. KM discussion.

Also for the record, though Awake and Images and Words are both among my favorite albums of all time, it isn't really for the keyboard work. Kevin brought a certain artistic sense that neither JR or DS bring, but at the end of the day I still prefer both DS and JR to KM.

The comments posted so far have been interesting to read. I also really agree with Orbert, though I'd add that JR's "normal" keyboard playing often gets buried, as is the case many times on the newest album.

[setrataeso]

Well, if this is presented as a "what if?" scenario, as in, "what if Derek was never sacked?", then that's interesting. Aside from Scenes from a Memory, which had already been written partially while Derek was still around, the rest of Dream Theater's albums could have sounded completely different.
At the same time, I don't know how different the overall sound would be. Mike is still the director of the band's sound, and something tells me that Derek would have filled the role that Mike would have wanted him to; the same role Jordan fills right now. I can't say how into the sound of DT Jordan is right now (I think it was mentioned that he is less into the heavy sound than the rest of the band members are), but I agree that Derek would probably take to it quite well.
Mike has stated that he felt that Derek was never quite accepted as a member of Dream Theater, but I would probably blame that on FII's lackluster sales and reception, and Derek being used as the scapegoat for those events. Right now, I can see Derek being accepted pretty well. It's been said already, but his attitude and persona are much more fitting to DT's current style than 15 years ago.
Derek is easily the first keyboardist I would want DT to approach if Jordan was not going to be playing with them anymore.
Derek is my favourite of DT's keyboardist for the same reasons that others have mentioned: he balanced the sounds of KM and JR very well, and was a joy to watch and listen to.

[tri.ad]

Derek is my favourite keyboardist DT has had so far. In my opinion, he presented a very good balance of chops (at least on ACOS, FII and Metropolis on WDADRU), feeling (Trial Of Tears!!) and style.

Needless to say that the general musical would have necessarily been a bit different due to some "creative tension" etc, I really could imagine them going places, maybe even further than they've already gone. Also, I really see Derek keeping up with the technical abilities of the rest of DT much better than he did back in 1997/98, and I don't think (or at least I don't hope) that he wouldn't be the scapegoat for the music he co-wrote.

So all in all, if Derek was in DT now, I could see it working without question; also, there's a chance that I might like DT's music even better with him on the keys and actually co-writing the songs. The good stuff on FII is mostly JM and Derek, so his credit shouldn't be neglected.

[Portrucci]

I much prefer Derek to Jordan. Not that JR would ever be replaced anyway. But it is interesting to think what modern DT would be like if the switch never happened. I'm guessing it would be more interesting, but it's nearly impossible to speculate about such things.

[skydivingninja]

I love how Derek sounds on FII and thought that it was a shame about what happened.  I think DT's potential with Derek was incredible.  It would be interesting to see what he would do with keyboard solos and atmosphere in songs like ANTR...

[robwebster]

Yeah, I really dug Derek's sound. For a little while he was my favourite keyboardist, back when my favourite everythings changed on a weekly basis.

I've got a hunch that DT would sound a little less Iron Maiden and a little more Deep Purple if he stuck around. He was always keen on the organs. The dirty bastard.

[Orbert]

Ah, that's right, Nightmare Cinema was his idea!  I totally forgot about that.  Derek brought the fun.

[Zydar]

Nicky Lemons & The Migraines!

[Dr. DTVT]

Orbert made some fine points.  I think the biggest difference would be in sound.  Rudess loves his gadgets and seems to get them into his performances, whereas the only equipment DS would use would be actual keyboards and maybe a zen riffer for some front of the stage action that he'd relish in.  I always thought DS got a raw deal (one album and one EP to prove himself), and I think if he stuck around they could have made it work just as well as they do now, but I think it would be different.

[rumborak]

From what I understood from Lifting Shadows, Derek was pretty surprised at his axing too, right?

Good thing is, I can say I saw him live with DT. Bonn, Biscuithalle. Vividly remember the static TV and the lava lamps

rumborak

[KevShmev]

  I always thought DS got a raw deal (one album and one EP to prove himself)

I don't think it was a matter of proving himself, rather than the guy they originally wanted when Kevin Moore first left the band finally being available and accepting Petrucci and Portnoy's offer to join the band.  

What is more intriguing is, had Rudess said no to joining DT in late '98, and Sherinian stayed on till this very day, assuming the Lifting Shadows book was still done, would Portnoy and/or Petrucci have admitted that they tried to replace Sherinian?

[Orbert]

Good question.  My money is on "No".

When Derek came on, they were excited to have him and happy to be moving forward.  And on the "Five Years" VHS/DVD, they speak bluntly about how KM had grown distant, and that one scene where KM is sitting and reading, and makes a "Shoo!" gesture at the camera went from really funny to me, to rather sad.  The commentary explains that that one shot pretty much sums it up.

Then they unceremoniously nuked Derek and raved about Jordan, going on and on about how he was the one they wanted all along and they're thrilled that he finally became available.  True to form, they had no problem painting Derek in a negative light.  Lava lamps, attitude, the way he dressed, the way he acted off stage, all of a sudden nothing about him was cool.

[rumborak]

History is written by the winners, it's always been that way. When I read Lifting Shadows, I definitely had the impression that while we got good and honest information about the beginnings of DT, everything after SDOIT was rather the "official company line". I would guess that 10 years from now when the final biography gets written, the story will be much different.

rumborak

[KevShmev]

Good points, guys, although I think that Kevin Moore moment on 5YIAL was completely exaggerated by the band on the commentary.  Moore has a half-grin on his face when he says, "Away with you," and struck me as a moment where he was by himself and all of a sudden the camera was in his face.  Not everyone can be a Mike Portnoy, where you are dying to ham it up every time someone shoves a camera in your face.  Not everyone wants to be "on" for the camera every second of the day, especially when in the studio.

[Seventh Son]

Well, Derek was on A Change of Seasons, Lines in the Sand, TRIAL OF FUCKING TEARS, etc.

I think he's proved he's a very good keyboardist. Thing is, would he fit with Mike Portnoy's vision of what DT should be? Attitude, sure, but to me it looks like Mike wants DT to be as virtuosic as possible, and given they already have Rudess, I doubt he'd go with Derek.

[perfectchaos180]

Imagine Octavarium without the continuum

I don't like to compare them, they all brought great things to the band, I think Rudess is getting a bit redundant now, but I still love his stuff. Part of the reason I love Awake and I&W and FII so much is that they sound so different from the lastest albums, if Moore was still the keyboardist I think I&W and Awake would be much less special.

[Cool Chris]

3.) [Derek] was a scapegoat. After the critical failure of FII, fans outlashed against Derek. This was partly because he had big shoes to fill, obviously, but I think it was also due to the fans not really understanding the inner mechanics of the band. His personality, again, was also a little bit of a turn-off to the fans.

I've always wondered how true this was. It seemed more like a bit of revisionist history, but I wasn't part of the DT community back then.

Good points, guys, although I think that Kevin Moore moment on 5YIAL was completely exaggerated by the band on the commentary.  Moore has a half-grin on his face when he says, "Away with you," and struck me as a moment where he was by himself and all of a sudden the camera was in his face. 

I never took that scene/commentary very seriously. I'm sure it wasn't KM implying "damn you, I'm sick of this band!" but of course it could be portrayed that way, even if jokingly.

Makes me wonder, though, the difference in how it presented to Jordan. 1994 was "Hey our keyboardist is leaving and we need to fill his place as we're going on tour to support the follow-up to our hit album, vs 1998 "Hey, we've had a good keyboardist for 5 years now, but we'd still rather have you in our band..."

[Orbert]

Good points, guys, although I think that Kevin Moore moment on 5YIAL was completely exaggerated by the band on the commentary.  Moore has a half-grin on his face when he says, "Away with you," and struck me as a moment where he was by himself and all of a sudden the camera was in his face.  Not everyone can be a Mike Portnoy, where you are dying to ham it up every time someone shoves a camera in your face.  Not everyone wants to be "on" for the camera every second of the day, especially when in the studio.

That's what I meant.  Kevin was just taking advantage of a break in the action, a quiet moment, and I thought what he did was funny.  Then on the DVD commentary, they point to this as "typical of what KM had become" or something.  WTF?  And the thing is, I didn't feel sad for KM so much as I felt sad for MP and the rest for thinking that they have to paint past members in a negative light in order to justify what happened, or something.

[LKap13]

I don't think MP and co. were painting him a negative light on the commentary to justify what happened. My guess would be that the "away with you" moment really was becoming typical for KM. I mean, his lyrics indicate that he was going through a rough time and was feeling estranged from the band and possibly others. And plus, he did leave the band right after...

[Perpetual Change]

History is written by the winners, it's always been that way. When I read Lifting Shadows, I definitely had the impression that while we got good and honest information about the beginnings of DT, everything after SDOIT was rather the "official company line". I would guess that 10 years from now when the final biography gets written, the story will be much different.

rumborak

I got that impression, too. However, I really doubt there's a lot of tension with the band nowadays. DT just seem so beyond that whole band drama thing now.  I would have liked more band reactions to the common criticisms surrounded Systematic Chaos, though.

[Slain]

I'm just fine with Rudess, I just think they need to let him do more atmospheric stuff, rather than a lot of guitar mimicry. There's no doubt that DS is great, and I like him, but I prefer both KM and JR over him.

[KevShmev]

Makes me wonder, though, the difference in how it presented to Jordan. 1994 was "Hey our keyboardist is leaving and we need to fill his place as we're going on tour to support the follow-up to our hit album, vs 1998 "Hey, we've had a good keyboardist for 5 years now, but we'd still rather have you in our band..."

I am pretty sure working with Rudess on the LTE albums is what made Petrucci and Portnoy want him in the band again.  They already knew what a virtuoso he was, but there was obviously a chemistry there in the writing process that they wanted to carry over to Dream Theater.

Good points, guys, although I think that Kevin Moore moment on 5YIAL was completely exaggerated by the band on the commentary.  Moore has a half-grin on his face when he says, "Away with you," and struck me as a moment where he was by himself and all of a sudden the camera was in his face.  Not everyone can be a Mike Portnoy, where you are dying to ham it up every time someone shoves a camera in your face.  Not everyone wants to be "on" for the camera every second of the day, especially when in the studio.

That's what I meant.  Kevin was just taking advantage of a break in the action, a quiet moment, and I thought what he did was funny.  Then on the DVD commentary, they point to this as "typical of what KM had become" or something.  WTF?  And the thing is, I didn't feel sad for KM so much as I felt sad for MP and the rest for thinking that they have to paint past members in a negative light in order to justify what happened, or something.

Agreed.

  However, I really doubt there's a lot of tension with the band nowadays. DT just seem so beyond that whole band drama thing now.  I would have liked more band reactions to the common criticisms surrounded Systematic Chaos, though.

Well, if Portnoy writes a song called "The Dark Master Wasn't Enough" on the next record, you'll have it.

[Mladen]

Derek was pretty damn good, I like him better than Kevin without a doubt. His songwriting might not have been spectacular, but I love his sound and solos, especially on ACOS. Falling into infinity has to be my least favorite Dream Theater album, but it's obviously not Derek's fault. If he was in the band right now, I know I'd still be listening and I'd really try to appreciate his work.

[razorsedge]

I'm trying to come up with something to say that doesn't dissolve into the old Derek vs KM vs Jordan debate, and it's tough.  Derek was and still is my favorite DT keyboard player, despite his relatively short tenure with them.  Jordan obviously has immense talent as a player and soundsmith, but most of the time he's either playing stuff that's so far out there that I think WTF? or essentially playing the part of a second guitarist.  A lot of Jordan's solos sound like what a guitarist would play in the same situation, except that it's being played on keys.  Derek and JP played off of each other in much more the way I feel a keyboardist and guitarist should, complimenting each other and each playing to their strengths.  In other words, Derek actually filled the role of keyboardist in a band the way I prefer it.  Rather than moments of "Oh cool, a weirdass keyboard part", everything blended together much better.  There was more of a feeling that all members were contributing musically than what we have now.

So... that was then.  If Derek were in the band now, I would hope that the dynamic were similar.  Derek has matured a lot as both a player and a person, and I agree that DT seems to have a different attitude now about... attitudes.  I don't listen to DT nearly as much now as I did five years or more years ago, and that's largely because I find what they're doing now to be boring, even as the band sees itself as taking more risks and taking things farther. 

If Derek were in the band now, there's a good chance that I'd like them better and listen to them more.

this is essentially my sentiment.  somewhere in the wilson bio some interviewee says that derek played against JP really well compared to JR who plays really well with JP. 

as orbert mentioned, this is what i feel the role of a keyboardist should be and i think it leads to better overall music. then again, jordan consistently places my jaw firmly on the floor for both his technical playing and his ear for sound/texture etc; i just think him and JP get carried away when playing together because they find it so easy to just play with each other whereas derek didn't seem to get drawn into the "diddly-diddly-diddly-wheeeeeee-watch-us-go" thing.

anywho, i would love to see derek write with the band again.  in my perfect world, derek would have stuck with dt and LTE would have a been a regular side project.  also, while i am making wishes,  they some how worked it out such that everything DT has written with JR also  somehow came into existence even though derek was never replaced... 

[Orbert]

Yeah, that's the quandry.  Scenes from a Memory is one of my favorite DT albums, and even though Derek was around during the early stages of it, I think the final product would have been quite different with Derek on keys.  So I wouldn't want that to go away.

[contest_sanity]

Somewhere in the wilson bio some interviewee says that derek played against JP really well compared to JR who plays really well with JP.  

Kevin Shirley said that.

[wolfking]

Derek > Jordan