Dream Theater Album Production

[Darkes7]

Ok, it's going in the same direction as always, so I give up...

[LKap13]

 They sound like a modern record is supposed to sound  

Compressed to death and sonically lacking in any real dynamics?  Because that is what the average modern record sounds like, sadly.  

You realise your post screams "let's ignore the point"?

No, it doesn't.  But feel free to ignore my valid point all you want, since it conflicts with yours.  Let me help you out here:

-The thread is about the production of DT's albums.
-You commented that their current records sound modern.
-I replied with pointing out how the average modern record sounds compressed and lacks in any real dynamics, like the more recent DT records.

Completely on topic.  Follow?

It is on topic. It is unrelated to my post. I've already said more than one time that compression and no dynamics is something basically parallel and it doesn't mean that modern production = compression. You mentioned PT, The Incident has a 100% modern production and I think even you won't say it's overcompressed... But then, I don't think so I'm probably wrong.

SFAM has basically perfect production and it sounds like if it took everything that's the best from both modern sound and older sound. It's right in between and there's not a single weakness I could think of. I know many albums released at that time, and it slays them all, and probably also massive majority of everything in 50 years scale.

I am at a loss for words.  You can't actually think.  I would think that as a fan of Porcupine Tree, you would be able to recognize when a record sounds great (from a production standpoint) and when one doesn't sound great.  And no, I am not saying DT records should sound just like PT records, so don't even try going down that road.

You descended to the "u r a moron" style, nice one. I rated you higher than this.

If you think I have a strange idea of a good production, then at least do something that nobody of around 5 posters claiming the same thing as you bothered to do - which is explaining what exactly is wrong with the production of SFAM. And no, general and saying nothing stuff like "flat" or "could have sounded better" doesn't mean anything.

Flat and muffled is an accurate description of how SFAM sounds...at times.  At times, the production simply lacks punch, resulting in a flat and muffled sound.  Off the top of my head, "Overture 1928" is the worst offender in this area.  There are parts where it sounds like the keyboards are straining to be heard, as if they are being swallowed by the other instruments; the first time the main Metropolis melody comes in is a good example of this.  I noticed that the very first time I ever listened to the CD.  Later on, when the keyboard plays that melody again, the drums (specifically, the cymbals) are way too loud; the keyboard should have been up front and center there, not being drowned out by the cymbals.  And then when the guitar lead comes in right after that, it is like a switch was hit where all of a sudden the volume level of the instruments all change.  The transition sonically should have been seamless, but it is choppy and rough.  Not trying to nitpick, but you asked, so there it is.  And that is just one example.  

Don't get me wrong, I love Scenes... to death, but the sound and production is very flawed.  And I have listened to it MANY TIMES over the years on real stereos (really good ones, too), so this is not the opinion of someone who always listens to it on an iPod or cheap computer speakers.

Do you even have the same album? I've listened to it approximately 50 times on a decent stereo and just as many times on PC (and although listening on PC is listening on PC, I have some decent headphones anyway). I don't know where are the mysterious volume changes, anti-keyboard conspiracies and ear-bleeding drums, quite likely because they are not there. You're creating non-existing details and claim SFAM lacks punch and I remember you're one of those claiming I&W has an awesome production, and THAT is an album that lacks punch in every way. But ok, brb, I'm going to look for my brain now, it must be in this room somewhere...

Edit: oh, what a pity.

Two things:
After re-listening to SFAM I'm going to have to agree with Darkes on this one. The album sounds perfect to my ears. I don't detect any of the muffled sounds or mix-fails that some of you guys have attributed to it.

Second, do we know if JP used his Musicman to record SFAM?

[Perpetual Change]

And I have listened to it MANY TIMES over the years on real stereos (really good ones, too), so this is not the opinion of someone who always listens to it on an iPod or cheap computer speakers.

On a related note: in an age when most people listen to music on PC's, iPods and other MP3 players, iPod docks, and nearly any other format BUT actual stereo CD players, why is it so wrong for bands like Dream Theater to produce albums that are meant to sound good on the mediums that most people listen to, rather than "real" stereos?

[tri.ad]

As far as I know, JP used his Ibanez at the beginning of the recording process, but switched to the Music Man in the middle of it.

As for SFAM, I mostly agree with Kev; the album sound is often pretty dull and muddy; but I have to say that the bass is mixed very well.

[orcus116]

And I have listened to it MANY TIMES over the years on real stereos (really good ones, too), so this is not the opinion of someone who always listens to it on an iPod or cheap computer speakers.

On a related note: in an age when most people listen to music on PC's, iPods and other MP3 players, iPod docks, and nearly any other format BUT actual stereo CD players, why is it so wrong for bands like Dream Theater to produce albums that are meant to sound good on the mediums that most people listen to, rather than "real" stereos?

I don't think a band should half-ass it just for that reason. You should produce an album to sound as good as it can no matter what.

[Perpetual Change]

Two things:
After re-listening to SFAM I'm going to have to agree with Darkes on this one. The album sounds perfect to my ears. I don't detect any of the muffled sounds or mix-fails that some of you guys have attributed to it.

Second, do we know if JP used his Musicman to record SFAM?

Doubtful. In the Scenes From a Memory booklet, it says that DT use Ibanez guitars. I think sometime between Scenes and the Scenes tour, he'd already moved on to the musicman. Unfortunately.

[Perpetual Change]

I don't think a band should half-ass it just for that reason. You should produce an album to sound as good as it can no matter what.

How's it half-assing it if music is recorded to sound good on a specific medium? The Incident, for example, sounds great on my stereo. But it doesn't sound good at all in my MP3 player and headphones, especially if I want to listen to my music without hearing the various train/bus noises that so easily get in the way.

[Seventh Son]

and THAT is an album that lacks punch in every way.

Wait














What? 

[tri.ad]

What have I said about baiting and stuff...?

[LKap13]

Two things:
After re-listening to SFAM I'm going to have to agree with Darkes on this one. The album sounds perfect to my ears. I don't detect any of the muffled sounds or mix-fails that some of you guys have attributed to it.

Second, do we know if JP used his Musicman to record SFAM?

Doubtful. In the Scenes From a Memory booklet, it says that DT use Ibanez guitars. I think sometime between Scenes and the Scenes tour, he'd already moved on to the musicman. Unfortunately.

Hmm... that's what I would have guessed. Man his Ibanez guitars sound so much better. For some reason JP felt the need to switch to a bassier, heavier guitar sound. On the other hand, to be fair, I can't imagine SDOiT and TOT being played on his Ibanez.

[KevShmev]

It was just a comparison, and a pretty obvious one. But I forgot, I just commited a sacrilege of the worst kind.

This is like your forum rape whistle.

Okay, I literally laughed out loud at that.

Anyway, Darkes, perhaps instead of these 50+ listens on a "decent" stereo, and your many PC listens on your "decent" headphones, you should try listening to SFAM on a great stereo.  Then again, you think I&W has no punch, so your ears might be broken, preventing you from detecting nuances and subtleties in music.

And what is funny is, you asked for details, instead of people using what you called "nothing stuff," so I gave you a specific example, and you responded to it by talking about the album in general terms, instead of addressing the example I gave you.  Can't say I am surprised, though...

In regards to JP's guitars, I LOVED the sound of Ibanez.  It sound so juicy and meaty, especially when soloing.  The newer guitar gives him a better heavy sound when riffing, especially live, but man, I still miss that Ibanez.  

[Perpetual Change]

In regards to JP's guitars, I LOVED the sound of Ibanez.  It sound so juicy and meaty, especially when soloing.  The newer guitar gives him a better heavy sound when riffing, especially live, but man, I still miss that Ibanez.  

I don't even know if I can agree with this. It seems to me that that Musicman has to be layered several times to sound even remotely heavy. And even then it kind of lacks punch. Listen to heavy musicman albums like Train of Thought or Elements of Persuasion and compare it to the guitar sound on Awake. There's just no comparison, really. The only thing I like better about the musicman is that clean-sounding solo tone he has. Otherwise, the heaviness of the Musicman just sounds way too "nice" for what it's supposed to do.

But anyway, as I understand it, JP didn't make the switch voluntarily. He lost his Ibanez endorsement. Right?

[LKap13]

But anyway, as I understand it, JP didn't make the switch voluntarily. He lost his Ibanez endorsement. Right?

If this was the case then all is forgiven. How sweet did the Ibanez guitars look though? Probably the best looking guitars I've ever seen.

[Perpetual Change]

Ah. Apparently, he wanted more freedom to have seven string guitars and such.

Long story short...

Contract expired with Ibanez after having 5 different JPMs produced and decided to make the switch to EB/MM where they gave him the freedom to design 6 and 7 stringers completely up to him (except for the headstock which cannot be changed by any EB artist). Pics of the Ibanez JPMs can be seen here - www.jpmsite.com. Last used Ibanez models on SFAM recording and on the SFAM tour. Started using EB/MM prototypes on that same tour. EB/MM sig models came out at NAMM 2001 Winter show in Anaheim, CA and were available for order soon thereafter.

There ya go.

Paul

[BRGM]

The MM guitars looks a lot better imo!    and to me they're better sounding, at least the solos.

[Groundhog]

One of the issues I have with the band's last three efforts has been the way the music "sounds". This is not necessarily the band's fault, it may just be a product of the times, but the albums sound over-produced. I think Awake and Falling into Infinity sound the best in terms of production quality; both of those albums sound very organic, unlike the new stuff that sounds very "electronic".
I wonder how the band's new material would sound if it was produced in the mid 90's , and with Petrucci's Ibanez.

As some have already mentioned the main reason for the sound is dynamic compression. Like all albums have gotten louder so have Dream Theater's. The louder the album the less breathing room for instruments and punch there is. I&W has an average dynamic range of 11 dB, Awake 9 dB.... SC and BC&SL 6 dB. For my ears less than 9 dB is where I start to hear the negative effects. I&W, Awake and FII followed by 6DOIT are the best sounding DT albums IMO. 6 Degrees has an excellent production and I'd say with better dynamics it would EASILY be the best sounding DT album.

It seems that you're ears have been opened and if you want to search more into why modern records sound that way visit www.turnmeup.org and www.pleasurizemusic.com. There's a lot of articles and info on the subject.

Dynamic range compression should be at the devices itself so that people could adjust it for their liking. It would be very easy to add that to car and mp3 players. Albums should always be done with best possible sound quality.

This reminds me that I have my BC&SL vinyl with 13 dB dynamic range waiting for me in the local record store. Anxious to hear how it sounds vs to the cd.

[Perpetual Change]

I'd love to hear what the differences are.

[LKap13]

This thread has been very informative to me. Now I understand why the latest albums sound the way they do.

A prime example of compressed recordings sounding worse than analog recordings is Pull Me Under (redone for Greatest Hit CD) vs. I&W version. The Greatest Hit version sounds a lot less dynamic and in the end, worse.

[Perpetual Change]

I think Pull Me Under sounds worse. Take the Time, on the other hand...

Eh scartch that. Shirley's a great producer, regardless of what anyone says about dynamic range. I'd love to hear him remaster all of Images and Words like he did for the Greatest Hits.

[TL]

The actual remixing of the IaW tracks on Greatest Hit is pretty well done, but they are mastered a bit too loud. The same mixing job with less compression would probably sound fantastic.

[KevShmev]

One of the issues I have with the band's last three efforts has been the way the music "sounds". This is not necessarily the band's fault, it may just be a product of the times, but the albums sound over-produced. I think Awake and Falling into Infinity sound the best in terms of production quality; both of those albums sound very organic, unlike the new stuff that sounds very "electronic".
I wonder how the band's new material would sound if it was produced in the mid 90's , and with Petrucci's Ibanez.

As some have already mentioned the main reason for the sound is dynamic compression. Like all albums have gotten louder so have Dream Theater's. The louder the album the less breathing room for instruments and punch there is. I&W has an average dynamic range of 11 dB, Awake 9 dB.... SC and BC&SL 6 dB. For my ears less than 9 dB is where I start to hear the negative effects. I&W, Awake and FII followed by 6DOIT are the best sounding DT albums IMO. 6 Degrees has an excellent production and I'd say with better dynamics it would EASILY be the best sounding DT album.

It seems that you're ears have been opened and if you want to search more into why modern records sound that way visit www.turnmeup.org and www.pleasurizemusic.com. There's a lot of articles and info on the subject.

Dynamic range compression should be at the devices itself so that people could adjust it for their liking. It would be very easy to add that to car and mp3 players. Albums should always be done with best possible sound quality.

This reminds me that I have my BC&SL vinyl with 13 dB dynamic range waiting for me in the local record store. Anxious to hear how it sounds vs to the cd.

This was a great post.  Very informative, and to the point.  

Ultimately, it is a bit disappointing that DT have allowed themselves to become victims of the loudness wars, especially since they are essentially still an underground band that shouldn't have to make their records sound loud and hot to appeal to the many mainstream fans who look to download songs instead of albums, but it is what it is.

[Quadrochosis]

One of the many reasons I love PT. SW fights the loudness wars.

[SystematicThought]

One of the many reasons I love PT. SW fights the loudness wars.

I'll agree with that. I can only imagine an SW mixed DT album

[Groundhog]

The actual remixing of the IaW tracks on Greatest Hit is pretty well done, but they are mastered a bit too loud. The same mixing job with less compression would probably sound fantastic.

A bit loud? It's WAY too loud.

I like the clarity that the new mix brings, but the mastering just kills it. Compared to the original it sounds like my speakers have shrunk when I play the GH version. GH version is very suffocated, especially the drums. Also the stereo image seems abnormally wide and flat in vertical dimension. The sound is concentrated on the very left and right side and it is hollow in the middle.

[Groundhog]

One of the issues I have with the band's last three efforts has been the way the music "sounds". This is not necessarily the band's fault, it may just be a product of the times, but the albums sound over-produced. I think Awake and Falling into Infinity sound the best in terms of production quality; both of those albums sound very organic, unlike the new stuff that sounds very "electronic".
I wonder how the band's new material would sound if it was produced in the mid 90's , and with Petrucci's Ibanez.

As some have already mentioned the main reason for the sound is dynamic compression. Like all albums have gotten louder so have Dream Theater's. The louder the album the less breathing room for instruments and punch there is. I&W has an average dynamic range of 11 dB, Awake 9 dB.... SC and BC&SL 6 dB. For my ears less than 9 dB is where I start to hear the negative effects. I&W, Awake and FII followed by 6DOIT are the best sounding DT albums IMO. 6 Degrees has an excellent production and I'd say with better dynamics it would EASILY be the best sounding DT album.

It seems that you're ears have been opened and if you want to search more into why modern records sound that way visit www.turnmeup.org and www.pleasurizemusic.com. There's a lot of articles and info on the subject.

Dynamic range compression should be at the devices itself so that people could adjust it for their liking. It would be very easy to add that to car and mp3 players. Albums should always be done with best possible sound quality.

This reminds me that I have my BC&SL vinyl with 13 dB dynamic range waiting for me in the local record store. Anxious to hear how it sounds vs to the cd.

This was a great post.  Very informative, and to the point.  

Ultimately, it is a bit disappointing that DT have allowed themselves to become victims of the loudness wars, especially since they are essentially still an underground band that shouldn't have to make their records sound loud and hot to appeal to the many mainstream fans who look to download songs instead of albums, but it is what it is.

Thanks Kev!

That's a result of being obsessed with the subject for years.

It's even more disappointing that before BC&SL they said that loudness war is stupid and the new album will be more dynamic. While it is better in that regard than SC, it was still only a marginal step to the right direction. I'm picking up the vinyl version of BC&SL today and I'll borrow a decent vinyl player from my friend. Once I've listened to it, I'll give my opinion on it.

[ariich]

I honestly have no problem whatsoever with the dynamic range on BC&SL, but then I guess it's down to personal preference, because as much as I love I&W, I find the sound a bit dated.

SC was a little compressed for my liking, but still perfectly acceptable, but BC&SL sounds great to me.

[Perpetual Change]

I pretty much agree 100 percent with ariich. Though I have problems with the production of BC&SL that aren't related to loudness.

And I don't think Steven Wilson does a good job of producing heavy music AT ALL. Not his own, nor anyone elses. And before anyone mentions it, no, I don't think Blackwater Park or Deliverance are good sounding albums. Personally, I wouldn't be that excited to hear what a DT album would sound like with him and the helm.

Shirley does a great job all around. If there's some issue there with dynamic range, then I really think people are letting themselves get fired up over nothing. If anything, DT could use him back.

[tri.ad]

And I don't think Steven Wilson does a good job of producing heavy music AT ALL. Not his own, nor anyone elses. And before anyone mentions it, no, I don't think Blackwater Park or Deliverance are good sounding albums. Personally, I wouldn't be that excited to hear what a DT album would sound like with him and the helm.

Shirley does a great job all around. If there's some issue there with dynamic range, then I really think people are letting themselves get fired up over nothing. If anything, DT could use him back.

I agree with what you said about Steven Wilson. Blackwater Park sounds pretty bad, In Absentia sounds abysmal compared to Lightbulb Sun, and some of his songs on Insurgentes (particularly Harmony Korine) scream Loudness War.

As for Kevin Shirley, he's a bit hit or miss imo. He did an amazing job on FII; Brave New World by Maiden could have sounded great, but it's too damn loud, and Dance Of Death sounds horrible. AMOLAD was a vast improvement, though. I'd say that he'd deserve a shot at mixing/mastering a future DT album, although I don't see it happening.

[ariich]

I'm surprised at your comments over IA, I'd say it's PT's best sounding album. Certainly better than the original LS (although the remixed/mastered version sounds great). And I love the production on Blackwater Park, just has an incredible atmosphere that really none of their other albums have.

[Perpetual Change]

According to wiki, Steve Wilson didn't produce In Absentia.


I like what SW did with Opeth on Blackwater Park from a creative standpoint. I think it's easy to see how Opeth made a permanent change for the better there. But the actual sound of the album? Meh. I'll take most other albums by Opeth over it.

[Darkes7]

I've just been listening to Blackwater Park several times this week and I don't see a single problem with its production, but then I'm not an enlightened guru like some of you.

[TL]

Darkes, the basics of what we're talking about aren't that difficult to understand. The loud parts should be loud, while the quiet parts should be quiet. Overcompression makes them more or less the same volume, and impact is lost. Overcompression makes the drums lose a lot of their punch. It makes the whole thing sound muddy and flat, and adds clipping. Nuances and subtleties of the music are lost. It can make the music lose a lot of its energy.

Now obviously there are different degrees of overcompression, and DT have never released something where it was a problem to the extent of something like Death Magnetic. In fact, BC&SL and Raw Dog, in terms of mastering volume, were a step in the right direction. DT has complex music, with a lot of subtleties and nuances, and avoiding losing those elements to bad production would be favorable. Something can sound modern without being overcompressed and overly loud.

[Perpetual Change]

I've just been listening to Blackwater Park several times this week and I don't see a single problem with its production, but then I'm not an enlightened guru like some of you.

I know. It's okay.

[Darkes7]

Something can sound modern without being overcompressed and overly loud.

And this is exactly what I've been trying to explain since the beginning, and what was ignored entirely by KevShmev and a few others. I agree with your post.

[Perpetual Change]

Something can sound modern without being overcompressed and overly loud.

And this is exactly what I've been trying to explain since the beginning, and what was ignored entirely by KevShmev and a few others. I agree with your post.

I agree too. And sometimes, compression isn't really that big of a deal, as long as its not to Death Magnetic levels. But I just don't like the way BWP sounds. Does absolutely nothing for me. Most of Wilson's heavy productions don't. And, in all fairness, as good of a producer as Wilson is, I think even his biggest fans will admit that he didn't get really good until Deadwing.