Dream Theater Album Production

[LKap13]

One of the issues I have with the band's last three efforts has been the way the music "sounds". This is not necessarily the band's fault, it may just be a product of the times, but the albums sound over-produced. I think Awake and Falling into Infinity sound the best in terms of production quality; both of those albums sound very organic, unlike the new stuff that sounds very "electronic".
I wonder how the band's new material would sound if it was produced in the mid 90's , and with Petrucci's Ibanez.

[hefdaddy42]

I think Awake and Falling into Infinity sound the best in terms of production quality

I agree with this.  I also like 6DOIT and I&W (snare triggers and all).

[LKap13]

Agreed. The snare triggers actually add to the drumming, IMO. Learning to Live snare hits sound amazing.

[Rafael Guerra]

I don't really mind, honestly. They both sound very appropriate to me. I can't really imagine A Nightmare to Remember with triggered drums for example. On the other hand, Learning To Live works perfectly.

[AwakeFromOctavarium]

I'm not really sensitive about production quality, but I don't like Falling Into Infinity in terms of that. It's technically not bad, but I just don't like the sound. My favorites have to be Awake and Six Degrees.

[LKap13]

I don't really mind, honestly. They both sound very appropriate to me. I can't really imagine A Nightmare to Remember with triggered drums for example. On the other hand, Learning To Live works perfectly.

I agree. ANTR is a song that is perfectly produced.

[SystematicThought]

The triggered snare and kick on Images add character to the album and I can't imagine it any different. The re-done versions on the greatest hit CD, weren't as great.

I do agree with you 100%. Octavarium was okay, Systemtic Chaos to me sounded suffocating in terms of production, and Black Clouds sounds a little bit better. In my honest opinion, Raw Dog sounds better than Black Clouds at times and definately better than Systematic Chaos.

Falling Into Infinity had all the right components in production. The bass sounds clear and has a good volume in the mix and nothing is too loud, although the keys can get a little bit loud in spots and cover up the rest of the band. Awake to had a great sound too. Although, were the vocals in Space Dye Vest supposed to be at a lower volume?

[TL]

The best production is probably on FII, though Awake has a great atmosphere to it.
Out of the more recent releases, BC&SL has some of the best production, with a lot more breathing room than Octavarium and SC. Raw Dog seems to have continued in that direction, which makes me very optimistic for the production on the next album.
Also, the latest Transatlantic album had fantastic production, so I'm hoping Mike brings that quality to DT's next project.

[SystematicThought]

The best production is probably on FII, though Awake has a great atmosphere to it.
Out of the more recent releases, BC&SL has some of the best production, with a lot more breathing room than Octavarium and SC. Raw Dog seems to have continued in that direction, which makes me very optimistic for the production on the next album.
Also, the latest Transatlantic album had fantastic production, so I'm hoping Mike brings that quality to DT's next project.

The production on The Whirlwind is top notch. Perfect mix and Mike's drums have a punch that are strangely absent on most DT releases

[ariich]

Can't say I agree at all I'm afraid, I'd say that BC&SL is their second best sounding album behind FII.

[Darkes7]

the albums sound over-produced

No offence, but this one is right at the very top of my "how to point out some clever-sounding weakness of an album that in reality doesn't make any sense" list. What is "over-produced" supposed to mean? They sound like a modern record is supposed to sound, and it doesn't sound "plastic" or anything similar. You can discuss about the details of each album's production, but there's nothing on any album that sounds significantly out of place (Death Magnetic?...).

The older albums sound different because technology and also DT style overall was different, and the new albums sound different. Simple.

[King Postwhore]

It means Darkes7 that some prefer the older style of recording to the newer style.  I know a lot of people that say(I'm not sure if I personally agree) that Analog recordings are the only way to go.

[hefdaddy42]

When I think of a term like "over-produced," I usually think of slicked-up pop songs.  I've never thought of a DT album as over-produced.

But whatever.

[orcus116]

There definitely isn't a lot of breathing room on the newer albums though Black Clouds is easily better in that regard than SC. I'd champion for JP and MP to explore new production options personally because I definitely have to agree with the OP that the albums are sounding the same in terms of tone.

[wolfking]

One of the issues I have with the band's last three efforts has been the way the music "sounds". This is not necessarily the band's fault, it may just be a product of the times, but the albums sound over-produced. I think Awake and Falling into Infinity sound the best in terms of production quality; both of those albums sound very organic, unlike the new stuff that sounds very "electronic".
I wonder how the band's new material would sound if it was produced in the mid 90's , and with Petrucci's Ibanez.

Do you have anything good to say about the band?

[orcus116]

What's wrong with what he said? It's a perfectly valid point. He didn't even say anything remotely bad.

[wolfking]

What's wrong with what he said? It's a perfectly valid point. He didn't even say anything remotely bad.

There's just two topics side by side both with negative comments against the band from the same poster, that's all.

[orcus116]

I wouldn't go as far as calling them negative comments. It's not like he came in and went "this shit sucks" or anything. New v. old production and the newer singles aren't any new topics for around here and he actually did offer some suggestions about them.

[wolfking]

I wouldn't go as far as calling them negative comments. It's not like he came in and went "this shit sucks" or anything. New v. old production and the newer singles aren't any new topics for around here and he actually did offer some suggestions about them.

Whatever, I'll just shut my fucking mouth.

[KevShmev]

  They sound like a modern record is supposed to sound 

Compressed to death and sonically lacking in any real dynamics?  Because that is what the average modern record sounds like, sadly. 

[LKap13]

One of the issues I have with the band's last three efforts has been the way the music "sounds". This is not necessarily the band's fault, it may just be a product of the times, but the albums sound over-produced. I think Awake and Falling into Infinity sound the best in terms of production quality; both of those albums sound very organic, unlike the new stuff that sounds very "electronic".
I wonder how the band's new material would sound if it was produced in the mid 90's , and with Petrucci's Ibanez.

Do you have anything good to say about the band?

Hey man I love Dream Theater as much as anyone else here. These were just two topics that were floating around in my head.
Anyway, what's your favorite dT material, wolfking?

[Perpetual Change]

I think all of their recent albums sound fine. I don't think Awake sounds very good at all.

I've tried to get into the analog vs. digital thing, and the dynamic range thing, but I just can't. I really don't get what the big deal is there.

[Seventh Son]

Images and Words has my favorite production, just because it has so much character to it. FII is really good but its missing a certain... rawness to it I guess. Six Degrees I'm rather fond of the production there, it has a rawness I really like to it (At least to me). I don't hate the production on Black Clouds and thought it did kind of fit what the album was going for. But something about SC's production infuriates me to no end (That and I hate the tone Petrucci has on it too).

[Perpetual Change]

I like the sound of all the last three albums, but I think BC&SL is a little bit worse based on this conjecture:

Octavarium sounded great and had plenty of "breathing room," but it wasn't contemporary (aka roadrunner metalish) enough. So they tried to make SC more contemporary by adding bigger guitars and punchier drums. Systematic Chaos sounded really good and very contemporary, but it was a little too loud and sounded really choked. Also, the bass wasn't nearly present enough. Since nearly every aspect of Systematic Chaos, including the production, was slammed by the fanbase, DT decided to scale things back for Black Clouds. They did this by keeping the big guitars, but turning everything else down and making the drums less punchy. As a result, Black Clouds has a really huge, contemporary sounding guitar presence with these really small sounding drums. Also, the bass and a lot of great keyboard work is buried, as seems obvious from the stems.

I'd really like to hear the album remixed, with someone taking the stems and just making the guitars a little bit more quiet. Sounds like it'd be enjoyable.

[The Letter M]

Images and Words has my favorite production, just because it has so much character to it. FII is really good but its missing a certain... rawness to it I guess. Six Degrees I'm rather fond of the production there, it has a rawness I really like to it (At least to me). I don't hate the production on Black Clouds and thought it did kind of fit what the album was going for. But something about SC's production infuriates me to no end (That and I hate the tone Petrucci has on it too).

Hmmm... So, what are your thoughts on Octavarium? If they are favorable, it seems you enjoy the even-numbered albums' production over the odd-numbered albums. It's like that thing with Star Trek movies...

-Marc.

[King Postwhore]

Images and Words has my favorite production, just because it has so much character to it. FII is really good but its missing a certain... rawness to it I guess. Six Degrees I'm rather fond of the production there, it has a rawness I really like to it (At least to me). I don't hate the production on Black Clouds and thought it did kind of fit what the album was going for. But something about SC's production infuriates me to no end (That and I hate the tone Petrucci has on it too).

Hmmm... So, what are your thoughts on Octavarium? If they are favorable, it seems you enjoy the even-numbered albums' production over the odd-numbered albums. It's like that thing with Star Trek movies...

-Marc.

Glad to see another Trek nerd here, but that should be no surprise on this forum.

[ariich]

I've tried to get into the analog vs. digital thing, and the dynamic range thing, but I just can't. I really don't get what the big deal is there.

The dynamic range thing I understand, though I don't see it as big a deal as a lot of people. Only if something is ridiculously compressed (like Death Magnetic) does it bother me, and I don't consider any DT album to be even close to that bad.

The analog vs digital thing I couldn't care less about though. I'm listening to a CD which itself is digital, so the recording method is an irrelevance.

[Seventh Son]

Images and Words has my favorite production, just because it has so much character to it. FII is really good but its missing a certain... rawness to it I guess. Six Degrees I'm rather fond of the production there, it has a rawness I really like to it (At least to me). I don't hate the production on Black Clouds and thought it did kind of fit what the album was going for. But something about SC's production infuriates me to no end (That and I hate the tone Petrucci has on it too).

Hmmm... So, what are your thoughts on Octavarium? If they are favorable, it seems you enjoy the even-numbered albums' production over the odd-numbered albums. It's like that thing with Star Trek movies...

-Marc.

Good production, but its missing a kind of raw punch that I look for that I felt was present on Images and Words/Awake/Six Degrees. Those are their best produced, in my opinion.

[Darkes7]

It means Darkes7 that some prefer the older style of recording to the newer style.  I know a lot of people that say(I'm not sure if I personally agree) that Analog recordings are the only way to go.

And it makes just as much sense as wanting the band's new albums to be re-recording of I&W/Awake. The world has moved on, and for a reason. While old records should remain as they are because it's a part of the album, there's no point in making new albums sound like if they were 20 years old. And I like analog sound (and vinyls) myself.

  They sound like a modern record is supposed to sound 

Compressed to death and sonically lacking in any real dynamics?  Because that is what the average modern record sounds like, sadly. 

You realise your post screams "let's ignore the point"?

Systematic Chaos (...) the bass wasn't nearly present enough.

I decide to leave out the rest for obvious reasons, but this I can't. Can I ask if you have the same "Systematic Chaos"?

[TL]

The best production is probably on FII, though Awake has a great atmosphere to it.
Out of the more recent releases, BC&SL has some of the best production, with a lot more breathing room than Octavarium and SC. Raw Dog seems to have continued in that direction, which makes me very optimistic for the production on the next album.
Also, the latest Transatlantic album had fantastic production, so I'm hoping Mike brings that quality to DT's next project.

The production on The Whirlwind is top notch. Perfect mix and Mike's drums have a punch that are strangely absent on most DT releases

We seem to agree, so I'm a bit confused by the 'shocked' emoticon. Though I'm a bit tired today, so it could just be that.

Octavarium sounded great and had plenty of "breathing room," but it wasn't contemporary (aka roadrunner metalish) enough. So they tried to make SC more contemporary by adding bigger guitars and punchier drums. Systematic Chaos sounded really good and very contemporary, but it was a little too loud and sounded really choked.

Octavarium didn't have plenty of breathing room. It wasn't as choked as SC, but it was pretty compressed. BC&SL easily has the best production of the last few albums in terms of range and breathing room.
SC was probably just more compressed because they didn't know better, and because it was the direction they and many other artists were trending in at the time anyway. Again, they recorded SC before ever signing with Roadrunner, and their second RR album is well mastered.

You realise your post screams "let's ignore the point"?

No, he has a point. There's an epidemic in modern mastering where everything is flat and overcompressed because producers want everything "louder".

[Darkes7]

But first it's not dominating, second it's definitely not the most common in progressive music, and third I'm pretty sure he knew what I meant but still just took the side route if you know what I mean.

[tri.ad]

But first it's not dominating,

It is. I've bought quite a lot of CDs that were released in the last ten years and most of them suffer from the exact thing TL descrribed. Besides, neither TL nor anyone else in this thread used the word "dominating".

second it's definitely not the most common in progressive music,

That depends. I haven't got through many albums in the progressive genre that were released in the alst ten years, but I don't see why this genre should be "ignored" by the loudness war phenomenon just because of the genre itself/the music. I could give you several examples of 2000s' albums in the progressive rock/progressive metal genre who actually are affected by this way of mastering, but who knows if it wouldn't be all in vain...

[Darkes7]

You can. But then, I don't see it mattering that much since there are very, very few examples when you can actually hear it. And once again, it's a side effect, and not related to my point at all. Every era of music had some obvious weaknesses, and it happens the '00s have had this.

[Dr. DTVT]

  They sound like a modern record is supposed to sound 

Compressed to death and sonically lacking in any real dynamics?  Because that is what the average modern record sounds like, sadly. 

Kev, maybe it was you who posted this link a while ago https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gmex_4hreQ; but whoever did makes your point for you about compression.

I would hope that a band as gifted as DT is understands this and would avoid it.

[Perpetual Change]

I decide to leave out the rest for obvious reasons, but this I can't. Can I ask if you have the same "Systematic Chaos"?

There's a lot of great bass parts on SC. The problem is, they either get buried or JP doubles them!

Octavarium didn't have plenty of breathing room. It wasn't as choked as SC, but it was pretty compressed.

I don't know what any of that compression business means. When I listen to Octavarium, I hear a very well-mixed album with each of the instruments coming through very well. That's all.