What is the "centerpiece" of each album?

[LKap13]

I understand and I respect that. All I'm saying is that in these types of discussions, it's more informative to keep "multi-tracks" separate; that is, if I really really like About to Crash and think it's dT's best song of all time, then treating SDOIT as one song limits my ability to express that.

[Global Laziness]

I understand and I respect that. All I'm saying is that in these types of discussions, it's more informative to keep "multi-tracks" separate; that is, if I really really like About to Crash and think it's dT's best song of all time, then treating SDOIT as one song limits my ability to express that.

Well then you'd better take that up with Dream Theater. *shrugs*

[Plasmastrike]

Carpe Diem is my favorite DT song !!1!1

[The Letter M]

I understand and I respect that. All I'm saying is that in these types of discussions, it's more informative to keep "multi-tracks" separate; that is, if I really really like About to Crash and think it's dT's best song of all time, then treating SDOIT as one song limits my ability to express that.

Except, "II. About To Crash" is part of a song... what you're saying is like someone saying "VII. The Crimson Sunset" is their favorite song. Just because DT (or any artist for that matter) chooses to index a longer song into separate parts doesn't always mean they intended those sections to be regarded as separate songs. Sure they may also be able to stand on their own, but they belong together and usually only work in context with the other parts of the song. You could always just say my favorite DT piece is part of "Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence"... how would that limit your ability to express your love for it?

Had DT decided not to index the title track on the album's release, you could bet there would be a lot of people complaining about how long it takes to get through the song, or that they wish it was indexed, etc. etc. I don't think it should matter, either way, but coming straight from MP's mouth, SDOIT is one song. As for "A Mind Beside Itself", it is definitely a suite, but the OP said "centerpiece" not "centerpiece SONG" or "centerpiece TRACK". A suite, as a singular thing, can be a centerpiece. Heck, I'd even go further as saying songs that segue would form a suite of sorts and be a centerpiece, like "Vacant" and "Stream Of Consciousness", or even "Wait For Sleep" and "Learning To Live", as those two pairs of songs even share melodies together.

-Marc.

[LKap13]

I understand all that.
For argument's sake, let me pose this scenario: I'm at a dT concert and "VII. Crimson Sunset" is played. I think to myself, "cool this is a part of ACoS." Later on in the night, "Solitary Shell" is played. I think to myself, "cool, they're playing "Solitary Shell."
Would this scenario play out differently if it was you at the concert? Be honest

[The Letter M]

I understand all that.
For argument's sake, let me pose this scenario: I'm at a dT concert and "VII. Crimson Sunset" is played. I think to myself, "cool this is a part of ACoS." Later on in the night, "Solitary Shell" is played. I think to myself, "cool, they're playing "Solitary Shell."
Would this scenario play out differently if it was you at the concert? Be honest

While one may say "they're playing Solitary Shell" and not "part of SDOIT", I think it depends on the person. Besides, if ACOS had been indexed into it's 7 parts, you'd bet that we'd all be arguing over which part is better, which part is everyone's favorite, etc. etc.

I'm sure many Genesis fans back on the Mama Tour didn't say "Hey, they're playing part of Supper's Ready" when they performed a section of it during their "In The Cage" Medley - they probably said "They're playing Apocalypse In 9/8!", which is a prominent part of the piece. It really just depends on your view of the music, and whether or not you listen to a song in parts or as a whole (as was intended IMO). Either way, DT have a habit of taking parts of songs and mixing them up with each other anyway, and at some point I'm sure we'll only ever get parts of their epics at a concert considering they have so many.

-Marc.

[SnakeEyes]

I don't understand the debate about "A Mind Beside Itself."  It is a PIECE of music.  Who cares if it's a song, a suite, three different songs, blah blah.  Those three songs together are, in my opinion (and the opinion of many others), the main attraction for that album.  And, just to reply to an earlier comment - no, "centerpiece" doesn't refer to a song that's in the middle of an album necessarily.  At least that's not what I was thinking when I made the thread.  By, "centerpiece," I meant the best part of the album, the song that represents the best music/ lyrics/ composition/ etc. of that particular album.  I think for everyone, it's a little different.  I think The Great Debate is a better song than The Glass Prison, so that's my choice for that album, for example. 

[SnakeEyes]

Oh, and by the way - comparing Solitary Shell to Crimson Sunset doesn't work very well, in my opinion.  We have to take into consideration that the song, "A Change of Seasons," is a chronological story about the life of one person.  It's meant to be heard in the context of the rest of the song, which compares living life to going through the seasons.  The emotional impact of the lyrics isn't as great unless you hear what came before it.  In fact, it almost doesn't make sense because the lyrics kind of come out of the blue ("I'm much wiser now...."  ... where the hell does that come from?). 

Solitary Shell, on the hand, isn't part of a STORY.  Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence (second CD) is a collection of songs with a common theme, which is mental illness.  None of the "characters" are connected, except that they all have some type of mental illness.  So, you can take most of the songs out of the context of the album and they stand on their own conceptually.  The only one that doesn't is the reprise for "About to Crash," which is why it's called a REPRISE.  It's not supposed to stand on its own. 

[ZBomber]

WDADU - The Killing Hand

Images & Words -  Metropolis

Awake - Voices

Falling into Infinity - Trial of Tears

SFAM - Home

Six Degrees -6DOIT

Train of Thought - In the Name of God

Octavarium - Octavarium

Systematic Chaos - In The Presence of Enemies

Black Clouds - The Count of Tuscany



So petty much all of the prog epics...

[BRGM]

Yeah exactly, but isn't Finally Free more of the SFAM centerpiece?

[tri.ad]

I don't think so. It may be the conclusion to the whole concept, but I don't think of it as the centerpiece. That position belongs either to Beyond This Life, since it's the song that delivers a whole lot of information about the story, or Home, as it really continues the Metropolis thing in an obvious way and is also the initial point for the conclusion.

[Mladen]

That position belongs either to Beyond This Life, since it's the song that delivers a whole lot of information about the story

This is what I personally think. It's the point where the concept becomes really interesting and dramatic.

[wasp2020]

WDADU - Only a Matter of Time
Images & Words -  Metropolis
Awake - Scarred (This is where it all comes to a head, then SDV is the epilogue...)
Falling into Infinity - Trial of Tears
SFAM - Finally Free
Six Degrees - Overture (I love overture)
Train of Thought -  Vacant/Stream of Consciousness
Octavarium - Octavarium
Systematic Chaos - Prescence of Enemies Pt 1
Black Clouds - The Count of Tuscany

[Quadrochosis]

WDADU - The Killing Hand

Images & Words -  Learning to Live

Awake - Voices

Falling into Infinity - Trial of Tears

SFAM - Home

Six Degrees -6DOIT

Train of Thought - In the Name of God

Octavarium - Octavarium

Systematic Chaos - In The Presence of Enemies

Black Clouds - The Count of Tuscany



So petty much all of the prog epics...

FTFY

[Progmetty]

WDADU - "Ytse Jam"

Images & Words -  "Metropolis"

Awake - "A Mind Beside Itself"

Falling into Infinity -  Trial of Tears

SFAM - Fatal Tragedy

Six Degrees - "The Glass Prison"

Train of Thought -  "This Dying Soul"

Octavarium - "Octavarium"

Systematic Chaos - In The Presence of Enemies

Black Clouds - "The Count of Tuscany"

[Global Laziness]

Oh, and by the way - comparing Solitary Shell to Crimson Sunset doesn't work very well, in my opinion.  We have to take into consideration that the song, "A Change of Seasons," is a chronological story about the life of one person.  It's meant to be heard in the context of the rest of the song, which compares living life to going through the seasons.  The emotional impact of the lyrics isn't as great unless you hear what came before it.  In fact, it almost doesn't make sense because the lyrics kind of come out of the blue ("I'm much wiser now...."  ... where the hell does that come from?). 

But The Crimson Sunset used to be played on its own quite frequently during the Falling into Infinity tour, as well as during encore medleys with Metropolis and Learning to Live.

[setrataeso]

I understand all that.
For argument's sake, let me pose this scenario: I'm at a dT concert and "VII. Crimson Sunset" is played. I think to myself, "cool this is a part of ACoS." Later on in the night, "Solitary Shell" is played. I think to myself, "cool, they're playing "Solitary Shell."
Would this scenario play out differently if it was you at the concert? Be honest

Yeah, it depends on the person.
I personally regard the Six Degrees movements more independent than the ACOS movements, even though they are just that: movements. Nevertheless, they are still part of one song. It doesn't matter about the fact that both ACOS and SDOIT have been broken up in live performances, fact is fact: THEY ARE BOTH SINGLE SONGS.

[Global Laziness]

Yes.

[Mebert78]

In my opinion, an album's final song can't be a "centerpiece."  No, a centerpiece doesn't have to be in the exact center of an album, but it must be surrounded by a few songs on either side.  A centerpiece is different from a climax.  I feel like some people are picking the climactic song as the centerpiece.  To me, that's not right.  I believe a centerpiece must be an epic song located in the core of the tracklist and surrounded by other songs in such a way that it shapes the whole feel of the album, like a nucleus.  Some DT albums do not have a centerpiece, in my opinion.

In my opinion:
"Metrolpolis" would be the centerpiece of I&W.
"Voices" would be the centerpiece of Awake.
"Lines In the Sand" would be the centerpiece of FII.
etc...

However, my initial reaction feels that BC&SL does not have a centerpiece.  There's not really one song in the core of tracklist that really stands out from the surrounding songs and shapes the "feel" of the album.  TCoT is the final song.  It's not a centerpiece.  It's a climatic closer.

[SnakeEyes]

But The Crimson Sunset used to be played on its own quite frequently during the Falling into Infinity tour, as well as during encore medleys with Metropolis and Learning to Live.

Yeah, I know.  Didn't they play it on Once in a Livetime?  I never thought Crimson Sunset stood on its own.  In fact, I don't think ANY part of A Change of Season stands on its own.  Going back to my earlier post - ACOS and Six Degrees are two completely different things.  Each section of A Change of Seasons represents a very specific thing in a very specific order.  The "story" of that particular song is told through the seasons and it just can't be taken out of that context.  

I'm not sure if that's DT's fault for not writing stronger lyrics or if maybe the song just isn't meant to be separated, although I suspect the latter.  Six Degrees isn't a story, but a collection of songs about one topic (mental illness).  

[Adami]

Yea, they played random parts of ACOS on OIALT. I'm pretty sure Crimson Sunset was either played on it's own as part of a medley.

[SnakeEyes]

Yeah, I remember that now.  It WAS part of the medley, you're right. 

[mainframe004]

IaW: Metropolis Part I
Awake: Voices or Scarred (I personally like Voices better)
SFAM: Finally Free
SDOIT: The Glass Prison or the title track (it's a 42-minute behemoth of awesome, so what's not to be "centerpiece" about it?)
Train of Thought: In the Name of God
Octavarium: The title track
Systematic Chaos: In the Presence of Enemies: Part I
BC&SL: The Count of Tuscany

[FinkPloyd]

When Dream & Day Unite - The Killing Hand
Images & Words - Learning To Live
Awake - Scarred
FII - Trial Of Tears
SFAM - Finally Free
Six Degress
1- The Glass Prison
2- Losing Time

ToT - In The Name Of God
Octavarium - Octavarium
SC - ITPOE-2
BC&SL - The Count Of Tuscany

[bosk1]

But The Crimson Sunset used to be played on its own quite frequently during the Falling into Infinity tour, as well as during encore medleys with Metropolis and Learning to Live.

Yeah, I know.  Didn't they play it on Once in a Livetime?  I never thought Crimson Sunset stood on its own.  In fact, I don't think ANY part of A Change of Season stands on its own.  Going back to my earlier post - ACOS and Six Degrees are two completely different things.  Each section of A Change of Seasons represents a very specific thing in a very specific order.  The "story" of that particular song is told through the seasons and it just can't be taken out of that context. 

I'm not sure if that's DT's fault for not writing stronger lyrics or if maybe the song just isn't meant to be separated, although I suspect the latter.  Six Degrees isn't a story, but a collection of songs about one topic (mental illness). 

Yes, I think your assessment is basically right (although, to be more accurate, Six Degress is a collection of movements in one song designed to support a common theme that is tied together and explained in the final movement).  Very good point about ACOS.  The way the song is organized, it does indeed unfold best as a unified piece in a very specific order.  I agree with you that I don't really like it split up for that very reason.  I understand what they were doing on parts of the FII tour where they split it up and used it as sort of a loose "theme" for the show, sprinkling parts of it throughout the set.  But it's best as a unified piece.

SDOIT, on the other hand, has a bit more of a loose format.  Other than Grand Finale (and Overture), the parts could basically be played in any order and would still work.  They are a bit random and seem unrelated, I think, as a means of mirroring the randomness and unpredictability of mental disorder in general.  You only get that the theme is something much more specific and poignant about mental disorders from Grand Finale, which ties everything up and unifies all the parts.  Without it, each movement can easily stand alone and be played as a separate "song."