JM going silent after JR's arrival?

[inoku]

I'm curious, is there an explanation or a reason mentioned by the band why they focused on JP-JR-MP now?

[tri.ad]

Yeah, but simply put, DT isn't writing that style of music anymore. 

There's nothing wrong with doubling JP's stuff. However, when you have a bassist like JM, and all he does is come in and learn what other people wrote and double it, it's depressing, whether or not it fits the music.

I really agree with this.

Regarding Raw Dog: JM is audible, but compared to BCASL, he's really quiet in the mix, it takes quite an effort to make him out. What adds to the problem is that JR is doubling the guitar as well sometimes, which confines JM's space even more.

[RaiseTheKnife]

I can hear JM's bass just fine in the opening to Raw Dog.  Its killer.  

More killer: that whole fretless/spacey sounding section where JP does the "melody lead" and JR is tacet.  

Plus JM's dissonent and distorted string tapping against the pickup on the upbeats is genuis.  This song is quite a showcase for him and will be a thrill to watch live.

[hefdaddy42]

Yeah, but simply put, DT isn't writing that style of music anymore. 

What style?  They don't just do heavy stuff.  Most of BC&SL wasn't heavy.  But he still isn't doing anything near what he used to do.  They could get any session bassist to do what he's done the last several albums.

The difference between them and, say, WDADU or I&W is staggering.

[FlashCE]

And everything he is doing right now is best for the song I'm sure.  There is not much room to do much fancy bass work in these heavy songs.  The fact that Myung can double JPs guitars is extremely impressive.  He is definitely the hardest worker as far as playing goes.  He never stops moving, and on a bass it's brutal.

Listen to some of his lines in ITPOE part 1, they are really really good.  I think he's just playing what fits the song.  Nothing wrong with that at all.  If the song writing changes and their style starts to shift from the non stop heavy stuff I'm sure Myung's bass playing will change as well.  There is simply no room for fancy "outside" bass playing when the objective of a part or song is to be heavy.  The bass needs to cover the low end and create a solid foundation in those instances.  After all, that is the primary objective of the instrument.

This is just a bad excuse. Plenty of metal and heavy bands have bassists that play outside from doubling the guitars. Listen to Japanese Rock bands like Dir En Grey or the GazettE. They have freaking heavy music with melodic basslines. Check out bands like Protest the Hero. The band is heavy and the bassist plays so many crazy licks.

Also if you guys can't hear the bass in Raw Dog, there's something wrong with your ears. The problem is more so that Myung's basslines are not distinct and they're just boring. He is definitely in the mix.

[Dream Team]

A lot of examples out there, but Individual Thought Patterns by Death is a heavy album with great audible basslines. Then again, they didn't have a keyboard player . . .

[antigoon]

I can hear JM's bass just fine in the opening to Raw Dog.  Its killer. 

More killer: that whole fretless/spacey sounding section where JP does the "melody lead" and JR is tacet.   

Plus JM's dissonent and distorted string tapping against the pickup on the upbeats is genuis.  This song is quite a showcase for him and will be a thrill to watch live.

I think those are both Rudess. The second one is, at least.

[7StringedBeast]

And everything he is doing right now is best for the song I'm sure.  There is not much room to do much fancy bass work in these heavy songs.  The fact that Myung can double JPs guitars is extremely impressive.  He is definitely the hardest worker as far as playing goes.  He never stops moving, and on a bass it's brutal.

Listen to some of his lines in ITPOE part 1, they are really really good.  I think he's just playing what fits the song.  Nothing wrong with that at all.  If the song writing changes and their style starts to shift from the non stop heavy stuff I'm sure Myung's bass playing will change as well.  There is simply no room for fancy "outside" bass playing when the objective of a part or song is to be heavy.  The bass needs to cover the low end and create a solid foundation in those instances.  After all, that is the primary objective of the instrument.

This is just a bad excuse. Plenty of metal and heavy bands have bassists that play outside from doubling the guitars. Listen to Japanese Rock bands like Dir En Grey or the GazettE. They have freaking heavy music with melodic basslines. Check out bands like Protest the Hero. The band is heavy and the bassist plays so many crazy licks.

Also if you guys can't hear the bass in Raw Dog, there's something wrong with your ears. The problem is more so that Myung's basslines are not distinct and they're just boring. He is definitely in the mix.

I don't think its an excuse at all.  It's a purpose.  JM is doubling the guitar riffs in heavy songs with a purpose to make it thick and TIGHT.  The fact that he doubles a lot of JPs riffs, including doubling unison lines is crazy within itself. 

[Adami]

Yes, it's difficult to double JP's lines. But this is JM we're talking about. It would be like putting JP in a Iced Earth or Metallica and just have him double hetfields parts, it's just a waste of a god like musician.

Plus, Awake was heavy and there are LOTS of interesting bass parts going on in there, he didn't JUST sit around learning JP and JRs parts, not to mention how much of the album he actually wrote, which seems to be an ever shrinking amount.

[7StringedBeast]

The Awake bass parts aren't that interesting.  He has Scarred and that is really it as far as interesting bass lines go.  Nothing about his bass playing jumps out at me on that album.  I think Myung is a master at playing what is necessary and knowing when to hold back.  He does what fits the song.  I think a lot of everyone's criticism is just on the way DT writes now and the shift in style that they've had.  Remember DT is not Primus the bass is not supposed to be the focal point of the song. 

Case in point, Octavarium.  The song gives him room and he writes something awesome.  JR was in the band for that.  How about the bass for These Walls during the verse.  Pretty cool and holds that groove down real nice.

[Samsara]

Yeah, but simply put, DT isn't writing that style of music anymore. 

Unfortunately.

[hefdaddy42]

The Awake bass parts aren't that interesting.  He has Scarred and that is really it as far as interesting bass lines go.  Nothing about his bass playing jumps out at me on that album.  I think Myung is a master at playing what is necessary and knowing when to hold back.  He does what fits the song.  I think a lot of everyone's criticism is just on the way DT writes now and the shift in style that they've had.  Remember DT is not Primus the bass is not supposed to be the focal point of the song. 

Case in point, Octavarium.  The song gives him room and he writes something awesome.  JR was in the band for that.  How about the bass for These Walls during the verse.  Pretty cool and holds that groove down real nice.

Yes, and he has devolved ever since then.

[toro]

The Awake bass parts aren't that interesting.  He has Scarred and that is really it as far as interesting bass lines go.  Nothing about his bass playing jumps out at me on that album.  I think Myung is a master at playing what is necessary and knowing when to hold back.  He does what fits the song.  I think a lot of everyone's criticism is just on the way DT writes now and the shift in style that they've had.  Remember DT is not Primus the bass is not supposed to be the focal point of the song. 

Case in point, Octavarium.  The song gives him room and he writes something awesome.  JR was in the band for that.  How about the bass for These Walls during the verse.  Pretty cool and holds that groove down real nice.

Awake whit no interesting bass? (IF,Lifting shadows, Lie,Scarred)
Sorry, Myung isn't doing the same anymore, it's boring(besides octavarium), whe need more myung

[PlaysLikeMyung]

The Awake bass parts aren't that interesting.  He has Scarred and that is really it as far as interesting bass lines go.  Nothing about his bass playing jumps out at me on that album.  I think Myung is a master at playing what is necessary and knowing when to hold back.  He does what fits the song.  I think a lot of everyone's criticism is just on the way DT writes now and the shift in style that they've had.  Remember DT is not Primus the bass is not supposed to be the focal point of the song. 

Case in point, Octavarium.  The song gives him room and he writes something awesome.  JR was in the band for that.  How about the bass for These Walls during the verse.  Pretty cool and holds that groove down real nice.

Yes, and he has devolved ever since then.

TCOT could have used some more interesting bass lines. In fact, it practically screamed it, and yet the bass really isn't interesting in that song

[tri.ad]

The Awake bass parts aren't that interesting.  He has Scarred and that is really it as far as interesting bass lines go.

I can name at least one very interesting bass part in every single song on Awake (well, except Space-Dye Vest, obviously). I mean, you are entitled to your opinion, but I totally disagree with it.

Remember DT is not Primus the bass is not supposed to be the focal point of the song.

Holy allegations, Batman, where did that come from? Noone in this thread ever said that. Just because DT's music isn't really designed to let the bass be the main driving force doesn't mean that there shouldn't be any room for some interesting "out-breaks" from the meanwhile usual doubling when there clearly is an opportunity for it, even if it doesn't show at first sight. Take Opeth, for example. The bass does a lot of doubling, of course (as you correctly pointed out, to give the riffs more bite), but the bass player sometimes breaks out of it all and delivers something awesome despite the riffs being heavy as ever - take a look at the slap section in Blackwater Park or some parts of The Leper Affinity.

Case in point, Octavarium.  The song gives him room and he writes something awesome.  JR was in the band for that.  How about the bass for These Walls during the verse.  Pretty cool and holds that groove down real nice.

With this, I can agree. Also, SDOIT delivers many, many examples. But on SC and BCASL, you really have to look hard into the music to find some places where JM jumps out - the short run before "In peaceful sedation..." in ANTR, for example, or the bass groove in TBOT.

Also, I agree with PLM, TCOT has a lot of sections that left much unused room for cool bass lines.

[KevShmev]

The bass parts in Awake aren't that interesting?  I think my head just exploded. 

[Plasmastrike]

I'd just like to say

• The Best Of Times at 7:49. I love the little grooves he does under JLB right there. On a good sound system, his lines are tasty.
• Awake's bass is boring? That's something new.

[bosk1]

But on SC and BCASL, you really have to look hard into the music to find some places where JM jumps out - the short run before "In peaceful sedation..." in ANTR, for example, or the bass groove in TBOT.

Really?  I think there are quite a few actually.  You mentioned a couple.  Off the top of my head, quite a few different ones in ITPoE (pt 1 and pt 2) and the breakdown before the solos in CM come to mind, for example. 

[tri.ad]

Yeah, I was just focusing on BCASL. SC has the bass groove in CM and the little harmonic plays in ITPOE Pt 2, for example, but there's not that much more, as far as I remember.

[Adami]

And just because JM is playing alone (or just with drums) doesn't mean it's really great. The bass parts in CM are pretty boring to be honest. And in AROT and PA he's just playing the guitar part really. Nothing to show much.

[robwebster]

The bass parts in CM are pretty boring to be honest.

Whooooaaaa. Whoa whoa whoa.

Definitely isn't. Really nifty little groove, that.

[Adami]

The bass parts in CM are pretty boring to be honest.

Whooooaaaa. Whoa whoa whoa.

Definitely isn't. Really nifty little groove, that.

No it's nice. But...it's not like it really says anything about JM. Jason Newstead could have played that part. It's like saying when john strums some chords that it's "featuring" his playing.

[Pierced Brosnan]

Just because there's some heavier songs, doesn't mean there's less room for cool bass parts. ToT, arguably their most consistantly heavy album, is littered with a fair amount of cool bass parts. There's also a pretty good balance between doubling riffs and adding something different from time to time.

[reneranucci]

TOT is definitely a good example of heaviness + cool bass parts.

But I´m pretty sure JM will always give the fans something to enjoy in the next albums.

[FlashCE]

And everything he is doing right now is best for the song I'm sure.  There is not much room to do much fancy bass work in these heavy songs.  The fact that Myung can double JPs guitars is extremely impressive.  He is definitely the hardest worker as far as playing goes.  He never stops moving, and on a bass it's brutal.

Listen to some of his lines in ITPOE part 1, they are really really good.  I think he's just playing what fits the song.  Nothing wrong with that at all.  If the song writing changes and their style starts to shift from the non stop heavy stuff I'm sure Myung's bass playing will change as well.  There is simply no room for fancy "outside" bass playing when the objective of a part or song is to be heavy.  The bass needs to cover the low end and create a solid foundation in those instances.  After all, that is the primary objective of the instrument.

This is just a bad excuse. Plenty of metal and heavy bands have bassists that play outside from doubling the guitars. Listen to Japanese Rock bands like Dir En Grey or the GazettE. They have freaking heavy music with melodic basslines. Check out bands like Protest the Hero. The band is heavy and the bassist plays so many crazy licks.

Also if you guys can't hear the bass in Raw Dog, there's something wrong with your ears. The problem is more so that Myung's basslines are not distinct and they're just boring. He is definitely in the mix.

I don't think its an excuse at all.  It's a purpose.  JM is doubling the guitar riffs in heavy songs with a purpose to make it thick and TIGHT.  The fact that he doubles a lot of JPs riffs, including doubling unison lines is crazy within itself. 

Doubling a guitar part isn't necessary to make something sound tight. Ive mentioned bands like Dir en grey that have an extremely tight and heavy rhythm section yet the bass isn't always incredibly boring.

[KevShmev]

Not trying to make a direct comparison here, since they are different bands and different kinds of players, but a friend and I were recently rocking out to The Flower Kings' "Devil's Playground," and during Roine Stolt's incredible, extended solo at the end of the song, Jonas Reingold is playing a ridiculously awesome bass line underneath it.  It is almost like they were soloing against one another, but neither was too overpowering or too much.  They were in complete synchronization and it was a thing of beauty.  And it occurred to me that you almost never hear stuff like that from John Myung, which is a shame, as it could had a whole other element to DT's instrumental sections.  Sadly, he seems content with doing what he has been doing for years now.

[rumborak]

You know what "DT" release has god-like bass lines? Suspended Animation. They're often at least equally as interesting as the guitar lines.

rumborak

[reneranucci]

True. I want Dave LaRue in DT´s next album.

[ZKX-2099]

Yeah I think the thing we should all realize is if he wanted to do more he probably would. I don't get the impression that he does.

[MirzekDT]

Yeah, I was just focusing on BCASL. SC has the bass groove in CM and the little harmonic plays in ITPOE Pt 2, for example, but there's not that much more, as far as I remember.

I think that bass in Repentance adds a lot to it awesomeness especially in Restitution. And whole intro to ITPOE pt.2 is very good bass work not just the harmonic plays. And also the main riff in TDEN maybe he's doubling the guitar I don't remember right now but he's very important there especially because of that high bass note.

[Martinman300]

I like all his leads on AFIL

[PlaysLikeMyung]

I like all his leads on AFIL

WDADU has some really good bass work as well. It's very in-your-face and energetic.

[ddtonfire]

I like all his leads on AFIL

WDADU has some really good bass work as well. It's very in-your-face and energetic.

Or high and sad.

[rumborak]

With all these laurels piled on JM, one also shouldn't forget that when he actually had solo spots, he also at times completely botched them, especially on the early albums. His choice of fast notes+distorted bass have led to several "wtf?" moments from my side.

rumborak

[Adami]

So I'm watching WDADRU and noticed that anytime JM does something crazy, the camera is focused on either Petrucci or Portnoy.

Perhaps Myung just noticed that no matter what he does he's gonna be in the background.