Musings on Old DT

[bosk1]

-Awake:  Great album, but written in less time than TOT.  Hmm...

Really? I was not aware of that. ToT was written in less than a month IIRC, I can't imagine Awake having been written in that short a time, especially considering how MP was pointing it out in the ToT video back in the day at how little time it took them to write ToT.

Yea, I didn't know that either.  I trying to think back into what the "Lifting Shadows" book said about how fast it was written.  However, didn't Awake have demos?  If you make demos, that shows me that stuff is in the works for a while and you're playing around with it.  Plus, they played the beginning of "The Mirror" as far back as "Live In Tokyo," so some of the material had been in the works for a while. 

Yeah, Puppies On Acid was around forever, but as far as I know, that's the only thing they had in any great detail before the writing sessions.

As far as demos, (1) I'm not talking about the entire writing and recording process--only writing.  They wrote Awake in less time than they wrote TOT.  (2) As far as demos, you could make the argument that in the process of recording demos and then working on the final version, there would be an opportunity to improve upon the songs.  But that's not really how it played out for this album.  If you listen to the demos, there's really not a whole heck of a lot that's different from the final versions, with only a few exceptions.

[contest_sanity]

I just think DT is very confident in its artistic vision these days (or least MP/JP).  So, they write and record a product, and that's that.  Some poets do the same thing.  Write a poem, maybe some minor editing -- then publish it and it's done (without long periods of marination).  To me, it's really just a way of working that they've settled on.  Each album is what they want to say at the time, and, if we don't like certain parts of what they have to say, well, that's just the nature of the beast -- there will be another album coming along soon enough.

[bosk1]

Band is on record as saying that Awake and Train of Thought were both written in about the same amount of time (roughly three weeks).  Incidentally, both were also demoed before going into a studio for final recording (instrumental-only in the case of TOT).

And they still demo at least some songs as part of their process today, as evidenced by the fact that we have demos for Wither and TBOT.  Whether they demo them solely for the purpose of James being able to hear the vocal melodies or not, I don't know.

[orcus116]

Great post and points all around. I just wanna make one theory about Awake in that while it was written around the same amount of time or less than TOT the band, at that time, was in the groove, IMO. They were firing on all cylinders creatively speaking. Sometimes that just happens with bands.

The overall issue is, IMO, the way they write. The whole sit in the studio and write/record just doesn't lend itself to letting songs marinate for months and going back to them and eliminating stuff that seems overdone. While some fans and the band hated having to write songs and submit them to the label for approval, I think it was helpful because it allowed the band to really spread their creative wings a bit and just try stuff, and let stuff sit, and keep writing different things, instead of being focused on "ok, we are writing and recording from October to December, and then will begin mixing Jan. 2, with mastering on Jan. 21."

Sam, this is a valid point. I hate the bitching about "new DT", but there's something to be said for this. Burning My Soul from the Old Bridge CD came up on my shuffle this afternoon and taking Hell's Kitchen out of it was a great move. Now I have a quality track with lots of feel (Hell's Kitchen) and one I can skip all together (BMS).
Under current format you have a great mid section within a sucky song.

I think they should've done the same with the middle of ANTR for the same reasons you said. The beginning and middle parts I could do without but man that middle section is fantastic.

[bosk1]

Great post and points all around. I just wanna make one theory about Awake in that while it was written around the same amount of time or less than TOT the band, at that time, was in the groove, IMO. They were firing on all cylinders creatively speaking. Sometimes that just happens with bands.

Heck, that's as good a theory as any.  Especially since it seems to be such an anomaly for that period in terms of it being written differently than the other albums.

[reneranucci]

I disagree completely, all those elements you listed are still present in modern DT (many good examples given in other replies, and there are other factors influencing JLB´s vocals) and DT has just expanded their repertorie and added many new elements and different approaches to their music, which is what allows old fans to enjoy their new music and new fans with different tastes to discover and like them.

[rumborak]

Without doubt, the responses in this thread are heavily modulated by one's evaluation of the last 5 years' output.

rumborak

[RandalGraves]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_x8cOfXPI1Y&feature=PlayList&p=FE9FF0F073E2029E&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=34

Beautifully fucking illustrated.

I don't know what that's from, but it's absolutely hilarious.

Trainspotting (definitely give it a watch if you haven't).  Funny, and for the most part true, especially with musicians.

[emindead]

-Awake:  Great album, but written in less time than TOT.  Hmm...

Really? I was not aware of that. ToT was written in less than a month IIRC, I can't imagine Awake having been written in that short a time, especially considering how MP was pointing it out in the ToT video back in the day at how little time it took them to write ToT.

Yea, I didn't know that either.  I trying to think back into what the "Lifting Shadows" book said about how fast it was written.  However, didn't Awake have demos?  If you make demos, that shows me that stuff is in the works for a while and you're playing around with it.  Plus, they played the beginning of "The Mirror" as far back as "Live In Tokyo," so some of the material had been in the works for a while. 

Yeah, Puppies On Acid was around forever, but as far as I know, that's the only thing they had in any great detail before the writing sessions.

What about Images & Words?

[bosk1]

What about it? 

[Samsara]

I disagree completely, all those elements you listed are still present in modern DT (many good examples given in other replies, and there are other factors influencing JLB´s vocals) and DT has just expanded their repertorie and added many new elements and different approaches to their music, which is what allows old fans to enjoy their new music and new fans with different tastes to discover and like them.

Still present? Barely. And it sounds contrived and forced to these ears. Expanded their repetoire (sp)? Ok, granted, but subjectively, it hasn't allowed this fan to enjoy them more, but less.

DT has forgotten that sometimes, less is more. They also have taken an approach to things that this fan doesn't care for. As much as I respect the hell out of MP giving the fans all the live stuff, being knowledgeable on the music DT fans listen to, etc., I question the band's decision to let MP steer the ship. I realize every band, group, business, etc., needs a leader. But sometimes, you need to step back and see that "my way" isn't always the "right way."

And the initial post in this thread illustrated some of the things that have been lacking from "newer DT" since MP really took the reigns (IMO). Things that are sorely missed.

[ariich]

I question the band's decision to let MP steer the ship.

In a business sense this is very much the case, but I've never seen anything to suggest that MP leads things musically and creatively. JP seems to be the main creative force behind the music with JR contributing a lot as well.

[TAC]

And the initial post in this thread illustrated some of the things that have been lacking from "newer DT" since MP really took the reigns (IMO). Things that are sorely missed.

I guess you have to take the bad with the good. If MP hadn't taken the reigns when he had, there's probably not even a newer DT era to bitch about.

[bosk1]

I question the band's decision to let MP steer the ship.

In a business sense this is very much the case, but I've never seen anything to suggest that MP leads things musically and creatively. JP seems to be the main creative force behind the music with JR contributing a lot as well.

I think you are correct in terms of writing (meaning bringing riffs, chord progressions, and song ideas to the table to jam out), Rich, but my understanding is that MP takes the lead in arranging, as he also did in Transatlantic.  So I think you and Samsara are both partially right.

[ariich]

Hmm, dunno, always got the feeling that side of things (song structures etc) was pretty evenly worked on between JP and MP as producers. Don't remember seeing anything confirming it one way or the other though.

[Samsara]

MP sits in the studio as a psuedo-conductor. JP and JR come up with the music, and Portnoy sits there (I am assuming, based on everything I've observed over the years that has been publicly released) and says "no, try it this way," "no, do it that way," etc. And yes, he has a hand in arranging the songs.

That is, in a nutshell, directing the band's artistic approach. He may not come up with the music, but he has a very large hand in shaping where it goes, arguably the biggest hand in it.

I would LOVE, LOVE, if MP just said "ok, on this record, I am not doing ANYTHING except playing drums and writing some lyrics." you guys have at it. Let me know when you've got some stuff for me to play drums on.

He would never do that in a million years, but I wish he would. No disrespect at all to MP. He's done a world of good in many areas of the band. But I'd love for him to step back for awhile and see what happens. He'd have to truly "let go" though. And he's said before, he'll never do that again.

[bosk1]

MP sits in the studio as a psuedo-conductor. JP and JR come up with the music, and Portnoy sits there (I am assuming, based on everything I've observed over the years that has been publicly released) and says "no, try it this way," "no, do it that way," etc. And yes, he has a hand in arranging the songs.

Not exactly, but close enough.  Even though it isn't DT, I think the TA bonus DVD for The Whirlwind gives a good feel for how he works, and if I recall, he mentions during that DVD that he fullfills the same role in DT.  I think it's more along the lines of they are jamming out ideas, and make will say something like, "Hey, I think it would be awesome if we took that Beatles theme from earlier and reprised it here," or "What if we extended that out another 4 bars, but changed the time signature to such and such."

[Samsara]

MP sits in the studio as a psuedo-conductor. JP and JR come up with the music, and Portnoy sits there (I am assuming, based on everything I've observed over the years that has been publicly released) and says "no, try it this way," "no, do it that way," etc. And yes, he has a hand in arranging the songs.

Not exactly, but close enough.  Even though it isn't DT, I think the TA bonus DVD for The Whirlwind gives a good feel for how he works, and if I recall, he mentions during that DVD that he fullfills the same role in DT.  I think it's more along the lines of they are jamming out ideas, and make will say something like, "Hey, I think it would be awesome if we took that Beatles theme from earlier and reprised it here," or "What if we extended that out another 4 bars, but changed the time signature to such and such."

bosk, that's exactly what I said. He does do the same thing for DT, except with DT's own music, not with lifting other bands' music into DTs...wait, I guess he does that too. 

Seriously though, it's the same thing I said. Plus he DOES do arranging. taking sections of songs and putting them together, and wanting the musicians to segue certain parts into others is song arrangement. It's a big part of the songwriting process.

It would be a really cool experiment if he just let go of those roles for an album or two and was just a drummer and concentrated on what he could add or more importantly, NOT add, with his drumming ability.

[ariich]

You seem to be making out like he does that with no input from anyone else. I've never had that impression at all.

[bosk1]

MP sits in the studio as a psuedo-conductor. JP and JR come up with the music, and Portnoy sits there (I am assuming, based on everything I've observed over the years that has been publicly released) and says "no, try it this way," "no, do it that way," etc. And yes, he has a hand in arranging the songs.

Not exactly, but close enough.  Even though it isn't DT, I think the TA bonus DVD for The Whirlwind gives a good feel for how he works, and if I recall, he mentions during that DVD that he fullfills the same role in DT.  I think it's more along the lines of they are jamming out ideas, and make will say something like, "Hey, I think it would be awesome if we took that Beatles theme from earlier and reprised it here," or "What if we extended that out another 4 bars, but changed the time signature to such and such."

bosk, that's exactly what I said. He does do the same thing for DT, except with DT's own music, not with lifting other bands' music into DTs...wait, I guess he does that too. 

Seriously though, it's the same thing I said. Plus he DOES do arranging. taking sections of songs and putting them together, and wanting the musicians to segue certain parts into others is song arrangement. It's a big part of the songwriting process.

It would be a really cool experiment if he just let go of those roles for an album or two and was just a drummer and concentrated on what he could add or more importantly, NOT add, with his drumming ability.

No, look carefully at the wording in your post and in mine and you will notice a subtle difference.  Your post implies that he says "Do this."  Mine is meant to convey that it is more like, "What if we tried this?"  One is giving orders.  The other is making suggestions.

[orcus116]

I get the feeling that Mike does a mixture of both. Not that he bosses the other two around but I can imagine that once he gets his vision in his head he might consider other ideas but he'll ultimately go with the first choice. (lol pronouns)

[Samsara]

MP sits in the studio as a psuedo-conductor. JP and JR come up with the music, and Portnoy sits there (I am assuming, based on everything I've observed over the years that has been publicly released) and says "no, try it this way," "no, do it that way," etc. And yes, he has a hand in arranging the songs.

Not exactly, but close enough.  Even though it isn't DT, I think the TA bonus DVD for The Whirlwind gives a good feel for how he works, and if I recall, he mentions during that DVD that he fullfills the same role in DT.  I think it's more along the lines of they are jamming out ideas, and make will say something like, "Hey, I think it would be awesome if we took that Beatles theme from earlier and reprised it here," or "What if we extended that out another 4 bars, but changed the time signature to such and such."

bosk, that's exactly what I said. He does do the same thing for DT, except with DT's own music, not with lifting other bands' music into DTs...wait, I guess he does that too. 

Seriously though, it's the same thing I said. Plus he DOES do arranging. taking sections of songs and putting them together, and wanting the musicians to segue certain parts into others is song arrangement. It's a big part of the songwriting process.

It would be a really cool experiment if he just let go of those roles for an album or two and was just a drummer and concentrated on what he could add or more importantly, NOT add, with his drumming ability.

No, look carefully at the wording in your post and in mine and you will notice a subtle difference.  Your post implies that he says "Do this."  Mine is meant to convey that it is more like, "What if we tried this?"  One is giving orders.  The other is making suggestions.

Point.

But at the end of the day, if there is a disagreement, and a decision has to be made, who calls that shot? Most of the time, that will be Mike Portnoy. Take that death metal vocal in "A Nightmare to Remember." They compromised, but John was adamant that the death growl did not fit with DT. But Mike pushed him to a compromise that was swung way toward what Mike wanted. Not exactly, but closer than what Petrucci wanted.

That's my point. All bands, all businesses, all groups, have a leader and someone to "make the call." MP serves that role in DT. Even if he couches it as "suggestion," at the end of the day, he's going to push until he gets close to, if not exactly what he wants. There is a balance so that others can peacefully exist, but at the end of the day, someone needs to steer that ship. MP does that.

[Dublagent66]

Well, I would have to side with JP on the ANTR growl.  It doesn't fit.  Especially the way it was done.  Very weak.  If anybody here listens to Testament or Shadows Fall, that's the way growls are suppose to sound.  I'm not sure if that's what JP meant or not.  But, MP having the final say on what is done or not done is the wrong way to go about it.  Things should be done unanimously within the band or not done at all.

[bosk1]

But at the end of the day, if there is a disagreement, and a decision has to be made, who calls that shot? Most of the time, that will be Mike Portnoy.

No, I know.  You're right about that.  I'm just saying there is a much different band chemistry in one situation vs. the other.  But maybe that's somewhat irrelevant to the point you were trying to make originally.

Well, I would have to side with JP on the ANTR growl.  It doesn't fit.  Especially the way it was done.  Very weak.  If anybody here listens to Testament or Shadows Fall, that's the way growls are suppose to sound.  I'm not sure if that's what JP meant or not.  But, MP having the final say on what is done or not done is the wrong way to go about it.  Things should be done unanimously within the band or not done at all.

As far as whether it "fits" or not, we'll just have to disagree.  I think it fits the song beautifully, and lots of other fans do as well.  And hearing all three versions further convinced me that it is perfect as is.

But that little matter of opinion aside, it's not a growl at all.  You are offbase comparing it to Testament or Shadows Fall and saying that's how "growls are supposed to sound."  This song was intentionally NOT supposed to sound like that.  They wanted it to sound aggressive, which it does, but JP specifically did not want it to be growl, and it isn't.  It isn't a growl that is done badly.  It simply isn't a growl at all.  A

But everybody in the band is apparently fine with it.  While it may be nice to think everything in a band should be unanimous, that's naive and silly in teh real world.  Things in bands and in other organizations are rarely unanimous because people simply think differently.  There's nothing wrong with that.  Peolpe learn to work together and operate based on consensus--not based on unaanimity.

[ariich]

I think there's some confusion here. At one point there was a full-on death growl, but JP didn't like it and thought it was too far away from what DT usually does for fans to accept it. The Rob Flynn-esque shouting that we have is essentially a compromise.

[antigoon]

I think there's some confusion here. At one point there was a full-on death growl, but JP didn't like it and thought it was too far away from what DT usually does for fans to accept it. The Rob Flynn-esque shouting that we have is essentially a compromise.

That's what I thought, as well. I'm glad JP got him to shout it as the growl was worse than what's there now.

[contest_sanity]

I think there's some confusion here. At one point there was a full-on death growl, but JP didn't like it and thought it was too far away from what DT usually does for fans to accept it. The Rob Flynn-esque shouting that we have is essentially a compromise.

That's what I thought, as well. I'm glad JP got him to shout it as the growl was worse than what's there now.

So MP is, in fact, able to compromise!!!

[Dublagent66]

I think there's some confusion here. At one point there was a full-on death growl, but JP didn't like it and thought it was too far away from what DT usually does for fans to accept it. The Rob Flynn-esque shouting that we have is essentially a compromise.

Now, I'm really confused.  I get that shouting and growling are different, but the shouting still resembles growling in a way.  So, what's the perception?  To me, it sounds like weak growling.  If JP didn't want the full-on growls, then why do something that sounds like a failed attempt at growling?  As a fan, I'd rather have the full on growling done right (like I mentioned in my other post), even if it is too far away from what DT usually does.  It would be much better than having it resemble a failed attempt at something that is too far away from the DT norm.  Does that make any sense?  IMO, the compromise just doesn't work.

[bosk1]

...why do something that sounds like a failed attempt at growling? 

It doesn't.

[Dublagent66]

...why do something that sounds like a failed attempt at growling? 

It doesn't.

It does to me.  In fact, I'm embarrassed every time I hear that entire verse.  It sounds like something that was meant to be aggressive but didn't quite get there.  Not to mention the lyrics.  As much as I love the song, that section just baffles me.  The music does it justice, but that's about it.  Oh well... 

[ariich]

...why do something that sounds like a failed attempt at growling? 

It doesn't.

This.

It may sound that way to you CC, but to a lot of other people. I listen to quite a lot of Machine Head, so I guess I'm used to that style of vocals, but trust me, it's got nothing to do with death growls.

[rumborak]

It doesn't sound like a growl. I just sounds like a really, really badly chosen style for vocal delivery.

rumborak

[orcus116]

At least with those lyrics. The line right before the roar is especially  , at least with the accompanying roar.

[Dublagent66]

...why do something that sounds like a failed attempt at growling?  

It doesn't.

This.

It may sound that way to you CC, but to a lot of other people. I listen to quite a lot of Machine Head, so I guess I'm used to that style of vocals, but trust me, it's got nothing to do with death growls.

I never said it had anything to do with death growls.  I said it sounds significantly less aggressive than growls (or a failed attempt). Difference.  Like I already said twice before.  Had it been growls, it would've worked much better.

It doesn't sound like a growl. I just sounds like a really, really badly chosen style for vocal delivery.

rumborak

This is what I meant.  Thanks for the simplification Rumby.

[hefdaddy42]

At least with those lyrics.

That's been my biggest problem with them from the beginning.  Why get all gruff at THAT point of the song?