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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: TheOutlawXanadu on March 02, 2010, 06:11:46 PM
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Last night I listened to (old) DT for the first time in months.
I really enjoyed what I heard. I don't listen to them much anymore, but DT were one of the most important musical discoveries of my life, so whenever I do, it's like seeing an old buddy and cracking open a beer.
While I was listening, there were a few things that struck me about their old sound that I really liked. In this thread, I will try to articulate those thoughts. I know the 'Old vs. New' argument has been debated into the ground, but some of these things I don't recall reading about much.
Forgive me if I am mistaken.
1) Nap Time
What struck me about songs like "Wait for Sleep", "To Live Forever", "Eve", "The Silent Man", "Lifting Shadows off a Dream", "Hollow Years" and "Speak to Me" was their sense of quiet. When I say that, I'm not talking about the fact they're short. Or that they're not metal. I'm talking about the fact you could lull a baby to sleep with them. They're so subtle. So understated.
These days, DT seem to have moved away from songs with a sense of quiet. Even "Wither", for example, which is a short, un-metal song, isn't exactly quiet. It's got big, booming vocals and a rockin' guitar solo. Doesn't mean it's a bad song - although, surprise, I don't like it much - but it's a good example.
Even "Trial of Tears", which is like 14 minutes long, sounded like a quiet epic to me. The thing just flows. And the ending is big but not, like, "Octavarium" orchestra with a guitar solo where Petrucci howls to the heavens big.
Lacking quiet songs doesn't mean new DT sucks. But I miss them. And they're one of my favorite parts of old DT.
2) Hooks Disguised as Complexity
What struck me about songs like "Take the Time", "Surrounded", "Metropolis", "6:00" and "Hell's Kitchen" was how they all had super complex parts or solos that were really, really hooky. For example, 3:40 in "Surrounded" and 3:00 in "Hell's Kitchen". Those licks or whatever the fuck you call them have been stuck in my head all day!
These days, I associate super complex parts or solos with shredding and unisons to end instrumental sections that I couldn't remember to save my life. Definitely wouldn't call them hooky.
Lacking hooky complex parts or solos doesn't mean new DT sucks. But I miss them. And they're one of my favorite parts of old DT.
3) Sounds Like You Got Kicked in the Balls
What struck me about I&W - FII (some) was LaBrie's vocals. His old operatic style suits him so well. It suits DT's music so well too. I think it makes him sound so interesting.
These days, now that LaBrie's vocals are much simpler, I hate to say it but he sounds so bland. I feel strange saying that because usually I like simple vocals more. But in his case, his current, non-screechy vocals are worse for him than his original, operatic style.
I also liked how he used to participate more in heavy songs. These days, Portnoy has started contributing more to heavy parts. I liked, especially on Awake, the snarl he used to showcase during heavier parts.
Having simple vocals doesn't mean new DT sucks. But I think their older vocal styles suited them better. I miss them. And they're one of my favorite parts of old DT.
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I completely agree, but I do still much enjoy their heavier output.
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Very cool post.
1) See, I think you're right when you say that they don't do the quiet songs as much any more. Repentance is probably the closest they've got as late. But, in my opinion, Dream Theater are at their strongest by far when they're writing big, bombastic things. That's clearly where their skill is. Wait for Sleep is beautiful, and a favourite of mine, and I'm so glad they wrote it - I wouldn't refuse a few more small songs. But if you listen to, say, the Count of Tuscany, you're clearly listening to a band in their element.
2) I agree! Although, I think Images and Words is the only really "hooky" album. But it's beautiful! Sublime. Fantastic. Nigh-on perfect. Oh Take the Time in particular is a glorious thing. And Learning to Live! Fantastic. It's a shame their instrumentals aren't groovy and catchy in the same way.
But, I'd say they've not entirely lost it. For me, the album in a slightly distant second would have to be... Octavarium. All sparkling and new, but there it is! I sincerely don't think there's a single forgettable moment on it. All the instrumental sections are so melodic. Especially in the title track! I don't understand why OVM isn't a fan favourite just like Images and Words. And then there's Never Enough. Nobody ever talks about the instrumental section in that track. Not once. But everything about it is fantastic. It's not quite a solo, it's a kind of unison riff, but it's very complex and yet thoroughly infectious at the same time.
BCSL is quite good for hooks, too. Not better than the early stuff perhaps, but there are lots of very musical moments. The whole intro to The Count of Tuscany is catchy. There are absolutely no lyrics, but it's so beautiful and infectious. Maybe it's a major-scale thing. So I don't think it's something they've entirely left behind. But yes, lovely. They need to do more of that.
As a kind of counterpoint to your comment about the instrumental sections, though, when I listen to older DT I'm often struck by - again, bar IAW - how hooky the non-instrumental sections aren't. They've got a hell of a lot stronger at writing choruses and verses. I mean, take your pick! In the Name of God, Constant Motion, Heretic from ITPOE2, The Root of All Evil, A Nightmare to Remember... their choruses and vocal melodies are so much more infectious nowadays than they ever have been. So they've almost gone the other way, vocally. Even on Images and Words - which is, admittedly, relentlessly catchy - I remember not initially warming to Metropolis or Learning to Live at all, because I thought the verses were a bit lifeless. I still think that of Metropolis, if I'm honest, although I like the song more nowadays.
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Nice work, TOX. I agree with your points. :tup
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1.) Repentance, The Answer Lies Within, First half of Octavarium, Vacant, Disappear, Goodnight Kiss.
2.) I don't even get what your bitching about here. The new Dream Theater is full of hooks and complexity.
3.) I love new LaBrie just as much as old. For example the end of The Shattered Fortress. NAILED IT. And the the "beautiful agony" part from A Nightmare To Remember, tip top.
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2.) I don't even get what your bitching about here.
??? ??? ???
He's not bitching; he made some very good points, and made them without criticizing or flaming the new material. Calm down, mkay? :)
But yeah, some great points, TOX. I especially agree with some of the old hooks being in the playing, not necessarily in the vocal melodies. Not that the vocal melodies didn't have hooks, because they did, but there were definitely some great hooks in the instrumental sections. Good call! :tup :tup
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Talking of Labrie's vocal. Nothing from new DT sounds like his vocal in
1. Take the Time(the very first verse)
2. Learning To Live(the very first verse and the following heavy complex verse)
3. Surrounded(the verses in the faster part)
The vocal in Awake got much simpler IMO. I&W is the best example for his vocal complexity.
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Cool thread TOX. I especially agree with your first point. The "quiet songs" as you refer to them have, over time, become my favorite Dream Theater songs and the ones I re-visit most frequently.
There's another thing I discovered about old DT as well. It's weird to say this, but John Petrucci's old solo spots (I was listening to a track titled "Awake Jam" from 11/18/1994) were amazing. His playing was so lyrical and expressive and his tone was much more direct. He relied less on speed and more on phrasing and he incorporated chromatic notes and an overall jazzy feel so well - His solo on To Live Forever from the Live In Tokyo DVD is my favorite Petrucci moment of all time.
I felt weird typing that because John Petrucci is what keeps modern Dream Theater great. He's been the anchor of the band and his playing has been so consistent throughout his career and I think some of the solos he recorded on Black Clouds are among his best. I just really liked what he was doing in the early '90s.
I hope that didn't come off too whiney.
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In regards to Petrucci's playing, I will make a point I have made before: I think his Ibanez sounded better, especially when it came to shredding. The guitar he uses now sounds really good, too, but the Ibanez sounded so thick and juicy. Even when he shredded on the Ibanez, it still sounded so juicy, and you could still almost pick out every note. On the Music Man, the shredding sometimes comes across like just a flurry of notes; whether or not that is in the structure of the solo, or the difference between the guitars, I am not sure, but it is just something I have noticed. When it comes to rhythm playing, it is probably about equal, but when it comes to shredding and soloing, the Ibanez was where it was at, if you ask me. :)
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I think it definitely has something to do with the fact that he's using a really large amount of delay and chorus now.
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Completely agree, especially point #2. DT has always been about shredding and showing off, but they used to be so catchy. Listen to Take the Time's instrumental section. It's complex, over the top, but yet so beautiful. Then listen to Raw Dog...
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And then there's Never Enough. Nobody ever talks about the instrumental section in that track. Not once. But everything about it is fantastic. It's not quite a solo, it's a kind of unison riff, but it's very complex and yet thoroughly infectious at the same time.
YES!!! One of my most favorite moments on a splendid album. Shall we start a Never Enough Kinda Almost Not Quite Solo Section Appreciation Thread?
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I think it definitely has something to do with the fact that he's using a really large amount of delay and chorus now.
Definately. Especially live and on the YouTube videos he has been featured in (especially the DiMarzio one). Imo the passages that he plays would sound really cool without all of the delay, to me that amount of delay kills it. It sounds as if he uses his 'volume swell' patch for soloing now (i.e. a delay time of 400/800 L/R respecively or something around there). If he toned it down to what he had going on on the 8V tour and anything prior it would be so much clearer and 'juicer' imo.
Matt
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I recently listened to I&W on our last trip and it really struck me how out of this world the vocals were. I mean, that was an incredible performance.
I do miss that element in current DT especially the last 2 albums. I would say that James has sung his parts perfectly, but I really feel he is underutilized. His performance on the BC&SL Covers CD is incredible.
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There's another thing I discovered about old DT as well. It's weird to say this, but John Petrucci's old solo spots (I was listening to a track titled "Awake Jam" from 11/18/1994) were amazing. His playing was so lyrical and expressive and his tone was much more direct. He relied less on speed and more on phrasing and he incorporated chromatic notes and an overall jazzy feel so well - His solo on To Live Forever from the Live In Tokyo DVD is my favorite Petrucci moment of all time.
I felt weird typing that because John Petrucci is what keeps modern Dream Theater great. He's been the anchor of the band and his playing has been so consistent throughout his career and I think some of the solos he recorded on Black Clouds are among his best. I just really liked what he was doing in the early '90s.
Yes.
But yeah, some great points, TOX. I especially agree with some of the old hooks being in the playing, not necessarily in the vocal melodies. Not that the vocal melodies didn't have hooks, because they did, but there were definitely some great hooks in the instrumental sections. Good call! :tup :tup
Yes, although they still write some instrumental sections that have these qualities. I just don't think there are as many (or that they're quite as creative), and the ones there are seem to be overshadowed by the multitude of aimless shreddy ones. ITPOE Pt. 1, Sacrificed Sons, The Count of Tuscany, Octavarium, SDOIT, Blind Faith, The Great Debate...etc. Robwebster pointed out Never Enough: although I think the song is weak (and the album, for that matter), that is a very good instrumental break that is often overlooked, probably because people don't like the song around it.
I also sort of agree with rob's point about their vocal melodies/choruses improving. I don't think it's a definite trend, but I think in general they've gotten a little better at making their choruses "stick", so to speak.
Anyway, good points in the OP too. I feel the same way about most of them.
-J
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Last night I listened to (old) DT for the first time in months.
I really enjoyed what I heard. I don't listen to them much anymore, but DT were one of the most important musical discoveries of my life, so whenever I do, it's like seeing an old buddy and cracking open a beer.
While I was listening, there were a few things that struck me about their old sound that I really liked. In this thread, I will try to articulate those thoughts. I know the 'Old vs. New' argument has been debated into the ground, but some of these things I don't recall reading about much.
Forgive me if I am mistaken.
1) Nap Time
What struck me about songs like "Wait for Sleep", "To Live Forever", "Eve", "The Silent Man", "Lifting Shadows off a Dream", "Hollow Years" and "Speak to Me" was their sense of quiet. When I say that, I'm not talking about the fact they're short. Or that they're not metal. I'm talking about the fact you could lull a baby to sleep with them. They're so subtle. So understated.
These days, DT seem to have moved away from songs with a sense of quiet. Even "Wither", for example, which is a short, un-metal song, isn't exactly quiet. It's got big, booming vocals and a rockin' guitar solo. Doesn't mean it's a bad song - although, surprise, I don't like it much - but it's a good example.
Even "Trial of Tears", which is like 14 minutes long, sounded like a quiet epic to me. The thing just flows. And the ending is big but not, like, "Octavarium" orchestra with a guitar solo where Petrucci howls to the heavens big.
Lacking quiet songs doesn't mean new DT sucks. But I miss them. And they're one of my favorite parts of old DT.
2) Hooks Disguised as Complexity
What struck me about songs like "Take the Time", "Surrounded", "Metropolis", "6:00" and "Hell's Kitchen" was how they all had super complex parts or solos that were really, really hooky. For example, 3:40 in "Surrounded" and 3:00 in "Hell's Kitchen". Those licks or whatever the fuck you call them have been stuck in my head all day!
These days, I associate super complex parts or solos with shredding and unisons to end instrumental sections that I couldn't remember to save my life. Definitely wouldn't call them hooky.
Lacking hooky complex parts or solos doesn't mean new DT sucks. But I miss them. And they're one of my favorite parts of old DT.
3) Sounds Like You Got Kicked in the Balls
What struck me about I&W - FII (some) was LaBrie's vocals. His old operatic style suits him so well. It suits DT's music so well too. I think it makes him sound so interesting.
These days, now that LaBrie's vocals are much simpler, I hate to say it but he sounds so bland. I feel strange saying that because usually I like simple vocals more. But in his case, his current, non-screechy vocals are worse for him than his original, operatic style.
I also liked how he used to participate more in heavy songs. These days, Portnoy has started contributing more to heavy parts. I liked, especially on Awake, the snarl he used to showcase during heavier parts.
Having simple vocals doesn't mean new DT sucks. But I think their older vocal styles suited them better. I miss them. And they're one of my favorite parts of old DT.
Did you go into my brain or something? Fully agreed on all points. I miss Dream Theater circa (1992-1997). All those factors you listed were dead-on. I'd add that DT also doesn't allow room for songs to "breathe" now, like they used to in the earlier records. This point is basically what you touched upon by calling it "quiet" and "understated." Exactly. A less is more approach.
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Great post, TOX. Agree 100% on everything you posted.
But I still like most new DT stuff as well.
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I agree, but maybe we can look at it this way:
If you're like me and been married 20+ years, your wife may not have the killer body anymore and may have a few gray hairs and wrinkles, but you still love her just as much if not more so. Why? Well, you didn't just marry her for her body, she has all those other wonderful qualities that you love and probably appreciate even more as time goes by. :smiley:
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Yes, I agree, something I'd definitely love to see is more clean, quiet, major key sections. The beginning of Count of Tuscany is one of the best moments in recent DT history, I think. Surrounded, Learning to Live, Trial of Tears, etc... Even Under a Glass Moon has that cool clean verse sandwiched in this metal song that isn't too heavy for it's own good.
Something I also really love is their rock songs - About to Crash is a prime example, simply excellent song, as is Surrounded (again), Take the Time, etc... The Best of Times' beginning verses was a decent shot at it, I guess, but it failed it my eyes (no thanks to the vocals). I was surprised when I heard them say it's hard for them to write a major key song like that, when they seemed to handle it just fine before.
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TOX those are some great insights into the subtle changes that DT's sound has gone through over the years. :tup
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Some interesting points there TOX, although on the whole I mostly disagree.
I don't really understand the "no quiet songs" thing, although I'm not sure what you're defining as "new DT" here. But what stops Disappear, Vacant, The Answer Lies Within and even, arguably, Repentance being quiet songs? Seems to just be BC&SL that doesn't have a song that's quiet all through, though it has a higher proportion of soft sections that most DT albums.
I also feel that DT still have plenty of hooky complex sections (Octavarium and TCOT are amazing examples of this. Even ANTR in fact which, aside from the solos, has a fantastic instrumental section). Maybe they have a few sections these days that aren't very interesting, but that doesn't mean the hooky ones have disappeared.
And I know JLB's vocal style is a matter of preference, but I personally prefer his more recent vocal style to the over the top wailing of the 90s. Not that it was bad as it suited the music and the time, just a personal preference really.
But the main thing that I don't get is, even if those elements were missing, why anyone should "miss" them. If you want a certain element or aspect, listen to the music that has it. What's to miss? ???
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But the main thing that I don't get is, even if those elements were missing, why anyone should "miss" them. If you want a certain element or aspect, listen to the music that has it. What's to miss? ???
It's just another way of saying I wish they still did whatever I was complaining they don't do anymore.
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Agreed on all points. Especially #2.
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I'd add that DT also doesn't allow room for songs to "breathe" now, like they used to in the earlier records. This point is basically what you touched upon by calling it "quiet" and "understated." Exactly. A less is more approach.
+1 on "breathe"
I really felt that ToT had no breathing on it what-so-ever to the extent that Vacant seemed rushed as well. Don't get me wrong, I like the album but when I was listening, I said to myself: Just Let Me Catch My Breath. - pun intended.
I often feel that MP doesn't let songs (FII and forward) breathe either. I once complained about it to my brother stating that I hear a *explicative* *explicative* drum fill after every 4-8 measures of the song. A friend of mine (not really a DT fan) also complained that JP's shredding is great but there is just too much of it in the songs. I had to agree. I'm not taking away any of MP and JPs talent. These guys are on the top of what they do for a living. I just think they could incorporate a little more of the subtleties as they did with previous (older) albums.
On a side note with regards to less is better: Is that why I can rarely hear John Myung's bass in the mixes? I'm sure this has been discussed to some extent but I couldn't resist - the bass mix in IaW and Awake are damn good - lacking in albums after that.
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Regarding the breathing thing, I think the mellow section in "A Nightmare to Remember" is an excellent example of them allowing a newer song to breathe, but it does seems like they do less of that nowadays.
As for Portnoy, I think the drums are too loud in the mix far too often, and often at the wrong times. Even though I am not a big fan of "Sacrificed Sons," the verses are kind of cool, with the mellow piano and soft vocals, but then you get Portnoy's drums, which are way too loud in the mix, and he hits them way too hard, too, when some nice subtle, soft flourishes could have worked just as well, IMO.
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The "breathing" point has a LOT to do with Mike's drums, and also the guitars.
I really admire the drumming on FII, and Mike just doesn't play with that kind of nuance and finesse much any longer, IMO. It's funny, I actually prefer watching MP play OUTSIDE of DT nowadays more than IN DT.
And JP. JP used to play with (and I know this irks some folks, so I'm sorry) a lot more feel. He knew when NOT to play, which is a key element in talking about what I feel is missing from new DT and was present in older DT. There is something to be said of the concept "less is more." I just wish DT would employ that genuinely, without forcing it (Repetence, IMO, for example).
The overall issue is, IMO, the way they write. The whole sit in the studio and write/record just doesn't lend itself to letting songs marinate for months and going back to them and eliminating stuff that seems overdone. While some fans and the band hated having to write songs and submit them to the label for approval, I think it was helpful because it allowed the band to really spread their creative wings a bit and just try stuff, and let stuff sit, and keep writing different things, instead of being focused on "ok, we are writing and recording from October to December, and then will begin mixing Jan. 2, with mastering on Jan. 21."
I know that's melodramatic on my part, but the point is, everything on old DT seems to me to have been worked on longer, and a lot of fat trimmed off (whether by the band or the label), and the songs just were better constructed.
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The overall issue is, IMO, the way they write. The whole sit in the studio and write/record just doesn't lend itself to letting songs marinate for months and going back to them and eliminating stuff that seems overdone. While some fans and the band hated having to write songs and submit them to the label for approval, I think it was helpful because it allowed the band to really spread their creative wings a bit and just try stuff, and let stuff sit, and keep writing different things, instead of being focused on "ok, we are writing and recording from October to December, and then will begin mixing Jan. 2, with mastering on Jan. 21."
Sam, this is a valid point. I hate the bitching about "new DT", but there's something to be said for this. Burning My Soul from the Old Bridge CD came up on my shuffle this afternoon and taking Hell's Kitchen out of it was a great move. Now I have a quality track with lots of feel (Hell's Kitchen) and one I can skip all together (BMS).
Under current format you have a great mid section within a sucky song.
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The overall issue is, IMO, the way they write. The whole sit in the studio and write/record just doesn't lend itself to letting songs marinate for months and going back to them and eliminating stuff that seems overdone.
I hate to say it, but Raw Dog has the same problem again. I read MP's interview where he was touting the fact that the songwriting for the song had essentially happened in the course of a few hours, and IMHO, it totally shows in the song. One may say of course that I was biased towards that impression given I had read the interview before hearing the song, but I think I still would have had the same impression without reading it.
rumborak
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_x8cOfXPI1Y&feature=PlayList&p=FE9FF0F073E2029E&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=34
Beautifully fucking illustrated.
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TOX, I don't necessarily share your viewpoints, but still a great post.
Regarding the breathing thing, I think the mellow section in "A Nightmare to Remember" is an excellent example of them allowing a newer song to breathe, but it does seems like they do less of that nowadays.
This, to me, sums up where I feel the band is on this. They still do it, and do it as well as ever. They just do it less.
...everything on old DT seems to me to have been worked on longer, and a lot of fat trimmed off (whether by the band or the label), and the songs just were better constructed.
This is an interesting point. I don't disagree that taking the time to let things set and then coming back to them later almost always produces a better product. But then I look at the process on the earlier albums, and...I'm just kind of at a loss. Let's skip WDADU and look at the next four albums and ACOS:
-I&W: Great album. Lots of writing and rewriting and outside input before a final product.
-Awake: Great album, but written in less time than TOT. Hmm...
-ACOS: Perfect example of something written beforehand that sat around for a long time where the final, finished product ended up being better for the process. IMO, the final version is WAY superior to the earlier versions.
-FII: We all know the story here. Mixed results as far as the individual songs. In some cases, the final versions were a lot like the demos--not a lot of changes. In some cases, better demos were scrapped for inferior final songs. In others, better final product than the original demos. But in terms of an album, we DID get a much different album than we would have gotten without the extra time and the outside influence. And for the most part, it was a better album.
-SFAM: Anther odd one. In a sense, there was a lot of pre-writing and a long period of time for the material to sit in terms of the demo being worked on during the FII sessions. But then again, none of the ideas in the instrumental demo even remotely qualified as a finished song. The final album was written pretty quickly, but they did have a lot of pre-existing ideas that they had worked on together prior to the formal writing of SFAM. So this sort of supports your point.
I dunno. I'm not saying you are wrong. I think your general principle is absolutely correct. But in looking at DT's history, things didn't necessarily always go the way you would have expected if the "take your time and let the songs marinate" model is always the correct one.
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I recently listened to I&W on our last trip and it really struck me how out of this world the vocals were. I mean, that was an incredible performance.
I do miss that element in current DT especially the last 2 albums. I would say that James has sung his parts perfectly, but I really feel he is underutilized. His performance on the BC&SL Covers CD is incredible.
What is weird about the vocals is they had the music done for some time so it wasn't like JLB was there for the sessions.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_x8cOfXPI1Y&feature=PlayList&p=FE9FF0F073E2029E&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=34
Beautifully fucking illustrated.
I don't know what that's from, but it's absolutely hilarious.
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-Awake: Great album, but written in less time than TOT. Hmm...
Really? I was not aware of that. ToT was written in less than a month IIRC, I can't imagine Awake having been written in that short a time, especially considering how MP was pointing it out in the ToT video back in the day at how little time it took them to write ToT.
There is also one big difference I think: DT hadn't discovered their "writing process" yet. It seems as of late (from an outsider view) that the writing process has been somewhat mechanized, with fixed "DT style" construction schemes. When I listened to Raw Dog the first time, I could have told you beforehand when the solo would come, and also that JR would follow JP's solo. I have the impression they have accumulated themselves a toolbox over the years, and now they're just doing a lot of plug-and-play. Not to say that they're not creating new ideas in their songs, but I haven't been really surprised in their late output.
rumborak
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-Awake: Great album, but written in less time than TOT. Hmm...
Really? I was not aware of that. ToT was written in less than a month IIRC, I can't imagine Awake having been written in that short a time, especially considering how MP was pointing it out in the ToT video back in the day at how little time it took them to write ToT.
Yea, I didn't know that either. I trying to think back into what the "Lifting Shadows" book said about how fast it was written. However, didn't Awake have demos? If you make demos, that shows me that stuff is in the works for a while and you're playing around with it. Plus, they played the beginning of "The Mirror" as far back as "Live In Tokyo," so some of the material had been in the works for a while.
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Band is on record as saying that Awake and Train of Thought were both written in about the same amount of time (roughly three weeks). Incidentally, both were also demoed before going into a studio for final recording (instrumental-only in the case of TOT).
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-Awake: Great album, but written in less time than TOT. Hmm...
Really? I was not aware of that. ToT was written in less than a month IIRC, I can't imagine Awake having been written in that short a time, especially considering how MP was pointing it out in the ToT video back in the day at how little time it took them to write ToT.
Yea, I didn't know that either. I trying to think back into what the "Lifting Shadows" book said about how fast it was written. However, didn't Awake have demos? If you make demos, that shows me that stuff is in the works for a while and you're playing around with it. Plus, they played the beginning of "The Mirror" as far back as "Live In Tokyo," so some of the material had been in the works for a while.
Yeah, Puppies On Acid was around forever, but as far as I know, that's the only thing they had in any great detail before the writing sessions.
As far as demos, (1) I'm not talking about the entire writing and recording process--only writing. They wrote Awake in less time than they wrote TOT. (2) As far as demos, you could make the argument that in the process of recording demos and then working on the final version, there would be an opportunity to improve upon the songs. But that's not really how it played out for this album. If you listen to the demos, there's really not a whole heck of a lot that's different from the final versions, with only a few exceptions.
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I just think DT is very confident in its artistic vision these days (or least MP/JP). So, they write and record a product, and that's that. Some poets do the same thing. Write a poem, maybe some minor editing -- then publish it and it's done (without long periods of marination). To me, it's really just a way of working that they've settled on. Each album is what they want to say at the time, and, if we don't like certain parts of what they have to say, well, that's just the nature of the beast -- there will be another album coming along soon enough.
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Band is on record as saying that Awake and Train of Thought were both written in about the same amount of time (roughly three weeks). Incidentally, both were also demoed before going into a studio for final recording (instrumental-only in the case of TOT).
And they still demo at least some songs as part of their process today, as evidenced by the fact that we have demos for Wither and TBOT. Whether they demo them solely for the purpose of James being able to hear the vocal melodies or not, I don't know.
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Great post and points all around. I just wanna make one theory about Awake in that while it was written around the same amount of time or less than TOT the band, at that time, was in the groove, IMO. They were firing on all cylinders creatively speaking. Sometimes that just happens with bands.
The overall issue is, IMO, the way they write. The whole sit in the studio and write/record just doesn't lend itself to letting songs marinate for months and going back to them and eliminating stuff that seems overdone. While some fans and the band hated having to write songs and submit them to the label for approval, I think it was helpful because it allowed the band to really spread their creative wings a bit and just try stuff, and let stuff sit, and keep writing different things, instead of being focused on "ok, we are writing and recording from October to December, and then will begin mixing Jan. 2, with mastering on Jan. 21."
Sam, this is a valid point. I hate the bitching about "new DT", but there's something to be said for this. Burning My Soul from the Old Bridge CD came up on my shuffle this afternoon and taking Hell's Kitchen out of it was a great move. Now I have a quality track with lots of feel (Hell's Kitchen) and one I can skip all together (BMS).
Under current format you have a great mid section within a sucky song.
I think they should've done the same with the middle of ANTR for the same reasons you said. The beginning and middle parts I could do without but man that middle section is fantastic.
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Great post and points all around. I just wanna make one theory about Awake in that while it was written around the same amount of time or less than TOT the band, at that time, was in the groove, IMO. They were firing on all cylinders creatively speaking. Sometimes that just happens with bands.
Heck, that's as good a theory as any. Especially since it seems to be such an anomaly for that period in terms of it being written differently than the other albums.
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I disagree completely, all those elements you listed are still present in modern DT (many good examples given in other replies, and there are other factors influencing JLB´s vocals) and DT has just expanded their repertorie and added many new elements and different approaches to their music, which is what allows old fans to enjoy their new music and new fans with different tastes to discover and like them.
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Without doubt, the responses in this thread are heavily modulated by one's evaluation of the last 5 years' output.
rumborak
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_x8cOfXPI1Y&feature=PlayList&p=FE9FF0F073E2029E&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=34
Beautifully fucking illustrated.
I don't know what that's from, but it's absolutely hilarious.
Trainspotting (definitely give it a watch if you haven't). Funny, and for the most part true, especially with musicians.
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-Awake: Great album, but written in less time than TOT. Hmm...
Really? I was not aware of that. ToT was written in less than a month IIRC, I can't imagine Awake having been written in that short a time, especially considering how MP was pointing it out in the ToT video back in the day at how little time it took them to write ToT.
Yea, I didn't know that either. I trying to think back into what the "Lifting Shadows" book said about how fast it was written. However, didn't Awake have demos? If you make demos, that shows me that stuff is in the works for a while and you're playing around with it. Plus, they played the beginning of "The Mirror" as far back as "Live In Tokyo," so some of the material had been in the works for a while.
Yeah, Puppies On Acid was around forever, but as far as I know, that's the only thing they had in any great detail before the writing sessions.
What about Images & Words?
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What about it?
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I disagree completely, all those elements you listed are still present in modern DT (many good examples given in other replies, and there are other factors influencing JLB´s vocals) and DT has just expanded their repertorie and added many new elements and different approaches to their music, which is what allows old fans to enjoy their new music and new fans with different tastes to discover and like them.
Still present? Barely. And it sounds contrived and forced to these ears. Expanded their repetoire (sp)? Ok, granted, but subjectively, it hasn't allowed this fan to enjoy them more, but less.
DT has forgotten that sometimes, less is more. They also have taken an approach to things that this fan doesn't care for. As much as I respect the hell out of MP giving the fans all the live stuff, being knowledgeable on the music DT fans listen to, etc., I question the band's decision to let MP steer the ship. I realize every band, group, business, etc., needs a leader. But sometimes, you need to step back and see that "my way" isn't always the "right way."
And the initial post in this thread illustrated some of the things that have been lacking from "newer DT" since MP really took the reigns (IMO). Things that are sorely missed.
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I question the band's decision to let MP steer the ship.
In a business sense this is very much the case, but I've never seen anything to suggest that MP leads things musically and creatively. JP seems to be the main creative force behind the music with JR contributing a lot as well.
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And the initial post in this thread illustrated some of the things that have been lacking from "newer DT" since MP really took the reigns (IMO). Things that are sorely missed.
I guess you have to take the bad with the good. If MP hadn't taken the reigns when he had, there's probably not even a newer DT era to bitch about.
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I question the band's decision to let MP steer the ship.
In a business sense this is very much the case, but I've never seen anything to suggest that MP leads things musically and creatively. JP seems to be the main creative force behind the music with JR contributing a lot as well.
I think you are correct in terms of writing (meaning bringing riffs, chord progressions, and song ideas to the table to jam out), Rich, but my understanding is that MP takes the lead in arranging, as he also did in Transatlantic. So I think you and Samsara are both partially right.
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Hmm, dunno, always got the feeling that side of things (song structures etc) was pretty evenly worked on between JP and MP as producers. Don't remember seeing anything confirming it one way or the other though.
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MP sits in the studio as a psuedo-conductor. JP and JR come up with the music, and Portnoy sits there (I am assuming, based on everything I've observed over the years that has been publicly released) and says "no, try it this way," "no, do it that way," etc. And yes, he has a hand in arranging the songs.
That is, in a nutshell, directing the band's artistic approach. He may not come up with the music, but he has a very large hand in shaping where it goes, arguably the biggest hand in it.
I would LOVE, LOVE, if MP just said "ok, on this record, I am not doing ANYTHING except playing drums and writing some lyrics." you guys have at it. Let me know when you've got some stuff for me to play drums on.
He would never do that in a million years, but I wish he would. No disrespect at all to MP. He's done a world of good in many areas of the band. But I'd love for him to step back for awhile and see what happens. He'd have to truly "let go" though. And he's said before, he'll never do that again.
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MP sits in the studio as a psuedo-conductor. JP and JR come up with the music, and Portnoy sits there (I am assuming, based on everything I've observed over the years that has been publicly released) and says "no, try it this way," "no, do it that way," etc. And yes, he has a hand in arranging the songs.
Not exactly, but close enough. Even though it isn't DT, I think the TA bonus DVD for The Whirlwind gives a good feel for how he works, and if I recall, he mentions during that DVD that he fullfills the same role in DT. I think it's more along the lines of they are jamming out ideas, and make will say something like, "Hey, I think it would be awesome if we took that Beatles theme from earlier and reprised it here," or "What if we extended that out another 4 bars, but changed the time signature to such and such."
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MP sits in the studio as a psuedo-conductor. JP and JR come up with the music, and Portnoy sits there (I am assuming, based on everything I've observed over the years that has been publicly released) and says "no, try it this way," "no, do it that way," etc. And yes, he has a hand in arranging the songs.
Not exactly, but close enough. Even though it isn't DT, I think the TA bonus DVD for The Whirlwind gives a good feel for how he works, and if I recall, he mentions during that DVD that he fullfills the same role in DT. I think it's more along the lines of they are jamming out ideas, and make will say something like, "Hey, I think it would be awesome if we took that Beatles theme from earlier and reprised it here," or "What if we extended that out another 4 bars, but changed the time signature to such and such."
bosk, that's exactly what I said. He does do the same thing for DT, except with DT's own music, not with lifting other bands' music into DTs...wait, I guess he does that too. :lol
Seriously though, it's the same thing I said. Plus he DOES do arranging. taking sections of songs and putting them together, and wanting the musicians to segue certain parts into others is song arrangement. It's a big part of the songwriting process.
It would be a really cool experiment if he just let go of those roles for an album or two and was just a drummer and concentrated on what he could add or more importantly, NOT add, with his drumming ability.
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You seem to be making out like he does that with no input from anyone else. I've never had that impression at all. ???
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MP sits in the studio as a psuedo-conductor. JP and JR come up with the music, and Portnoy sits there (I am assuming, based on everything I've observed over the years that has been publicly released) and says "no, try it this way," "no, do it that way," etc. And yes, he has a hand in arranging the songs.
Not exactly, but close enough. Even though it isn't DT, I think the TA bonus DVD for The Whirlwind gives a good feel for how he works, and if I recall, he mentions during that DVD that he fullfills the same role in DT. I think it's more along the lines of they are jamming out ideas, and make will say something like, "Hey, I think it would be awesome if we took that Beatles theme from earlier and reprised it here," or "What if we extended that out another 4 bars, but changed the time signature to such and such."
bosk, that's exactly what I said. He does do the same thing for DT, except with DT's own music, not with lifting other bands' music into DTs...wait, I guess he does that too. :lol
Seriously though, it's the same thing I said. Plus he DOES do arranging. taking sections of songs and putting them together, and wanting the musicians to segue certain parts into others is song arrangement. It's a big part of the songwriting process.
It would be a really cool experiment if he just let go of those roles for an album or two and was just a drummer and concentrated on what he could add or more importantly, NOT add, with his drumming ability.
No, look carefully at the wording in your post and in mine and you will notice a subtle difference. Your post implies that he says "Do this." Mine is meant to convey that it is more like, "What if we tried this?" One is giving orders. The other is making suggestions.
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I get the feeling that Mike does a mixture of both. Not that he bosses the other two around but I can imagine that once he gets his vision in his head he might consider other ideas but he'll ultimately go with the first choice. (lol pronouns)
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MP sits in the studio as a psuedo-conductor. JP and JR come up with the music, and Portnoy sits there (I am assuming, based on everything I've observed over the years that has been publicly released) and says "no, try it this way," "no, do it that way," etc. And yes, he has a hand in arranging the songs.
Not exactly, but close enough. Even though it isn't DT, I think the TA bonus DVD for The Whirlwind gives a good feel for how he works, and if I recall, he mentions during that DVD that he fullfills the same role in DT. I think it's more along the lines of they are jamming out ideas, and make will say something like, "Hey, I think it would be awesome if we took that Beatles theme from earlier and reprised it here," or "What if we extended that out another 4 bars, but changed the time signature to such and such."
bosk, that's exactly what I said. He does do the same thing for DT, except with DT's own music, not with lifting other bands' music into DTs...wait, I guess he does that too. :lol
Seriously though, it's the same thing I said. Plus he DOES do arranging. taking sections of songs and putting them together, and wanting the musicians to segue certain parts into others is song arrangement. It's a big part of the songwriting process.
It would be a really cool experiment if he just let go of those roles for an album or two and was just a drummer and concentrated on what he could add or more importantly, NOT add, with his drumming ability.
No, look carefully at the wording in your post and in mine and you will notice a subtle difference. Your post implies that he says "Do this." Mine is meant to convey that it is more like, "What if we tried this?" One is giving orders. The other is making suggestions.
Point.
But at the end of the day, if there is a disagreement, and a decision has to be made, who calls that shot? Most of the time, that will be Mike Portnoy. Take that death metal vocal in "A Nightmare to Remember." They compromised, but John was adamant that the death growl did not fit with DT. But Mike pushed him to a compromise that was swung way toward what Mike wanted. Not exactly, but closer than what Petrucci wanted.
That's my point. All bands, all businesses, all groups, have a leader and someone to "make the call." MP serves that role in DT. Even if he couches it as "suggestion," at the end of the day, he's going to push until he gets close to, if not exactly what he wants. There is a balance so that others can peacefully exist, but at the end of the day, someone needs to steer that ship. MP does that.
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Well, I would have to side with JP on the ANTR growl. It doesn't fit. Especially the way it was done. Very weak. If anybody here listens to Testament or Shadows Fall, that's the way growls are suppose to sound. I'm not sure if that's what JP meant or not. But, MP having the final say on what is done or not done is the wrong way to go about it. Things should be done unanimously within the band or not done at all.
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But at the end of the day, if there is a disagreement, and a decision has to be made, who calls that shot? Most of the time, that will be Mike Portnoy.
No, I know. You're right about that. I'm just saying there is a much different band chemistry in one situation vs. the other. But maybe that's somewhat irrelevant to the point you were trying to make originally.
Well, I would have to side with JP on the ANTR growl. It doesn't fit. Especially the way it was done. Very weak. If anybody here listens to Testament or Shadows Fall, that's the way growls are suppose to sound. I'm not sure if that's what JP meant or not. But, MP having the final say on what is done or not done is the wrong way to go about it. Things should be done unanimously within the band or not done at all.
As far as whether it "fits" or not, we'll just have to disagree. I think it fits the song beautifully, and lots of other fans do as well. And hearing all three versions further convinced me that it is perfect as is.
But that little matter of opinion aside, it's not a growl at all. You are offbase comparing it to Testament or Shadows Fall and saying that's how "growls are supposed to sound." This song was intentionally NOT supposed to sound like that. They wanted it to sound aggressive, which it does, but JP specifically did not want it to be growl, and it isn't. It isn't a growl that is done badly. It simply isn't a growl at all. A
But everybody in the band is apparently fine with it. While it may be nice to think everything in a band should be unanimous, that's naive and silly in teh real world. Things in bands and in other organizations are rarely unanimous because people simply think differently. There's nothing wrong with that. Peolpe learn to work together and operate based on consensus--not based on unaanimity.
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I think there's some confusion here. At one point there was a full-on death growl, but JP didn't like it and thought it was too far away from what DT usually does for fans to accept it. The Rob Flynn-esque shouting that we have is essentially a compromise.
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I think there's some confusion here. At one point there was a full-on death growl, but JP didn't like it and thought it was too far away from what DT usually does for fans to accept it. The Rob Flynn-esque shouting that we have is essentially a compromise.
That's what I thought, as well. I'm glad JP got him to shout it as the growl was worse than what's there now.
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I think there's some confusion here. At one point there was a full-on death growl, but JP didn't like it and thought it was too far away from what DT usually does for fans to accept it. The Rob Flynn-esque shouting that we have is essentially a compromise.
That's what I thought, as well. I'm glad JP got him to shout it as the growl was worse than what's there now.
So MP is, in fact, able to compromise!!!
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I think there's some confusion here. At one point there was a full-on death growl, but JP didn't like it and thought it was too far away from what DT usually does for fans to accept it. The Rob Flynn-esque shouting that we have is essentially a compromise.
Now, I'm really confused. I get that shouting and growling are different, but the shouting still resembles growling in a way. So, what's the perception? To me, it sounds like weak growling. If JP didn't want the full-on growls, then why do something that sounds like a failed attempt at growling? As a fan, I'd rather have the full on growling done right (like I mentioned in my other post), even if it is too far away from what DT usually does. It would be much better than having it resemble a failed attempt at something that is too far away from the DT norm. Does that make any sense? IMO, the compromise just doesn't work.
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...why do something that sounds like a failed attempt at growling?
It doesn't.
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...why do something that sounds like a failed attempt at growling?
It doesn't.
It does to me. In fact, I'm embarrassed every time I hear that entire verse. It sounds like something that was meant to be aggressive but didn't quite get there. Not to mention the lyrics. As much as I love the song, that section just baffles me. The music does it justice, but that's about it. Oh well... :-\
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...why do something that sounds like a failed attempt at growling?
It doesn't.
This.
It may sound that way to you CC, but to a lot of other people. I listen to quite a lot of Machine Head, so I guess I'm used to that style of vocals, but trust me, it's got nothing to do with death growls.
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It doesn't sound like a growl. I just sounds like a really, really badly chosen style for vocal delivery.
rumborak
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At least with those lyrics. The line right before the roar is especially :facepalm: , at least with the accompanying roar.
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...why do something that sounds like a failed attempt at growling?
It doesn't.
This.
It may sound that way to you CC, but to a lot of other people. I listen to quite a lot of Machine Head, so I guess I'm used to that style of vocals, but trust me, it's got nothing to do with death growls.
I never said it had anything to do with death growls. I said it sounds significantly less aggressive than growls (or a failed attempt). Difference. Like I already said twice before. Had it been growls, it would've worked much better.
It doesn't sound like a growl. I just sounds like a really, really badly chosen style for vocal delivery.
rumborak
This is what I meant. Thanks for the simplification Rumby.
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At least with those lyrics.
That's been my biggest problem with them from the beginning. Why get all gruff at THAT point of the song?
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At least with those lyrics.
That's been my biggest problem with them from the beginning. Why get all gruff at THAT point of the song?
Because it sounds "good." Musically, it makes sense. Lyrically . . . not so much.
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At least with those lyrics.
That's been my biggest problem with them from the beginning. Why get all gruff at THAT point of the song?
Because it sounds "good." Musically, it makes sense. Lyrically . . . not so much.
It doesn't sound "good" if it doesn't make sense lyrically. That's what I'm saying.
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Personally I think the fault at that part of the song lies with the lyrics. Ignoring the vocals entirely for a second, the music in that whole section is dark and heavy. The lyrics for the first 3/4 of it fit fine, but the last couple of lines simply do not. This has nothing to do with the vocals, the lyrics simply don't fit the music. Poor show from JP really, as even when he's off-form lyrically, his words still tend to fit the music.
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Personally I think the fault at that part of the song lies with the lyrics. Ignoring the vocals entirely for a second, the music in that whole section is dark and heavy. The lyrics for the first 3/4 of it fit fine, but the last couple of lines simply do not. This has nothing to do with the vocals, the lyrics simply don't fit the music. Poor show from JP really, as even when he's off-form lyrically, his words still tend to fit the music.
That just shows that the whole section doesn't work as a finished product, thereby reducing the overall quality of the song as a whole.
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I had a thought - what if the lyrics were changed to this:
How can you prepare for what would happen next?
No son should ever have to see his father such a mess
It's a miracle he lived
It's a blessing no one died
By the Grace of God above
Everyone survived
Day after day
And night after night
Replaying the events
Did they ever see the red light?
Over and over
Scene by scene
Like a recurring nightmare haunting my dreams.
Still not great, but it at least works.
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Personally I think the fault at that part of the song lies with the lyrics. Ignoring the vocals entirely for a second, the music in that whole section is dark and heavy. The lyrics for the first 3/4 of it fit fine, but the last couple of lines simply do not. This has nothing to do with the vocals, the lyrics simply don't fit the music. Poor show from JP really, as even when he's off-form lyrically, his words still tend to fit the music.
That just shows that the whole section doesn't work as a finished product, thereby reducing the overall quality of the song as a whole.
Indeed, which is a shame as the rest of the song is seriously good. But as it's only half a minute it doesn't bother me much.
Reap, it definitely works a little better that way round, though not much. The music for the whole section is pretty dark and heavy. The uplifting lyrics just don't really fit at all.
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Personally I think the fault at that part of the song lies with the lyrics. Ignoring the vocals entirely for a second, the music in that whole section is dark and heavy. The lyrics for the first 3/4 of it fit fine, but the last couple of lines simply do not. This has nothing to do with the vocals, the lyrics simply don't fit the music. Poor show from JP really, as even when he's off-form lyrically, his words still tend to fit the music.
That just shows that the whole section doesn't work as a finished product, thereby reducing the overall quality of the song as a whole.
Indeed, which is a shame as the rest of the song is seriously good. But as it's only half a minute it doesn't bother me much.
Well, for me it's much longer than half a minute. I think the majority of the song following the Beautiful Agony section is superfluous and unnecessary. I actually think the song would work better if the "story" was wrapped up sooner, and the section featuring MP's vocals served as background for a solo, and then end the song. IMHO, of course.
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Fair enough. Actually I'm not a big fan of the solos because, by their standards, they're just not very interesting, but the rest of the instrumental stuff I love.
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Fair enough. Actually I'm not a big fan of the solos because, by their standards, they're just not very interesting, but the rest of the instrumental stuff I love.
Once the Beautiful Agony section ends, ANTR doesn't have any emotional through-lines leading from section to section. Some of the sections sound cool, but they don't mean anything.
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^That^
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Fair enough. Actually I'm not a big fan of the solos because, by their standards, they're just not very interesting, but the rest of the instrumental stuff I love.
Once the Beautiful Agony section ends, ANTR doesn't have any emotional through-lines leading from section to section. Some of the sections sound cool, but they don't mean anything.
Oh definitely, but then I don't think every minute of every song requires that either. But I can certainly understand why people might like that stuff less.
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Oh definitely, but then I don't think every minute of every song requires that either. But I can certainly understand why people might like that stuff less.
But I really feel like songs need to be consistent about their emotional content. Something like Raw Dog announces itself as purely an attempt at being heavy in a semi-logical manner. You're in or out.
ANTR does this weird switch halfway through though where it gives up on peaks and valleys of emotional level and just does the semi-logically connected riffs. Obviously, part of what can make a song good is varying the level of emotion in music creates contrast, flow, and hopefully story. But going from intense emotion at the end of the Beautiful Agony section to an almost emotionless solo section still just doesn't work for me one bit.
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Yeah I agree about the solo section somewhat, although I don't find it as out of place or disjointed as some people seem to, as I think it fits in with what was going on at the start of the song. My main issue with it is that the solos just aren't very good.
I get what you're saying though, and like I said, I can understand why some people might not be fans of the last 1/3 of the song.
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Stop being so fucking agreeable, ariich.
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Stop being so fucking agreeable, ariich.
Yeah I probably should be more confrontational.
:biggrin:
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:biggrin:
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:lol
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Yeah, Puppies On Acid was around forever, but as far as I know, that's the only thing they had in any great detail before the writing sessions.
I don't know what was around before then and didn't get played live, but
in addition to Puppies on Acid there was also the whole classical guitar
section of Erotomania that was re-used from an old Pull Me Under demo.
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I know this is really random but...
In the Petrucci interview Mojo did, it cuts to the "Afterlife" unison toward the end. That's another example of a really catchy, hooky complex part.
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I know this is really random but...
In the Petrucci interview Mojo did, it cuts to the "Afterlife" unison toward the end. That's another example of a really catchy, hooky complex part.
I've always loved 'Afterlife,' ever since first listening to that cd way back when. I'm glad they brought it out at RCMH for a little more exposure. And you're right about the catchiness + complexity factor; that's what makes it superb!!
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I know this is really random but...
In the Petrucci interview Mojo did, it cuts to the "Afterlife" unison toward the end. That's another example of a really catchy, hooky complex part.
I've always loved 'Afterlife,' ever since first listening to that cd way back when. I'm glad they brought it out at RCMH for a little more exposure. And you're right about the catchiness + complexity factor; that's what makes it superb!!
It may be the best song on WDADU.
-J
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I know this is really random but...
In the Petrucci interview Mojo did, it cuts to the "Afterlife" unison toward the end. That's another example of a really catchy, hooky complex part.
I've always loved 'Afterlife,' ever since first listening to that cd way back when. I'm glad they brought it out at RCMH for a little more exposure. And you're right about the catchiness + complexity factor; that's what makes it superb!!
It may be the best song on WDADU.
-J
Really? Astonishing.
I must admit, I've never understood the love for this song. But hey, that's cool.
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IMO, it's one of the few songs on WDaDU where Dominici sounds fairly/really good. That goes a long way towards making it really good for me.
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What about it?
That it was almost completely written before JLB got into the band. There wasn't any writing sessions in this case.
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I know this is really random but...
In the Petrucci interview Mojo did, it cuts to the "Afterlife" unison toward the end. That's another example of a really catchy, hooky complex part.
I've always loved 'Afterlife,' ever since first listening to that cd way back when. I'm glad they brought it out at RCMH for a little more exposure. And you're right about the catchiness + complexity factor; that's what makes it superb!!
It may be the best song on WDADU.
-J
Really? Astonishing.
I must admit, I've never understood the love for this song. But hey, that's cool.
Yeah, OAMOT is the only other real contender for me. Although I enjoy most of the rest of the album as well, which seems to be rare around here.
The solo and ensuing unison in Afterlife are my favorite parts.
-J
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I think "Afterlife" is quite good, but I don't think it is close to as good as "Only a Matter of Time," "Ytse Jam" or "Light Fuse and Get Away." Just my two cents. :)
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I think "Afterlife" is quite good, but I don't think it is close to as good as "Only a Matter of Time," "Ytse Jam" or "Light Fuse and Get Away." Just my two cents. :)
Now there's a song that doesn't seem to get much love, but I really like it. Not quite as much as 'Afterlife,' but still a great song.
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There was something special and electric about Afterlife's performance on Score. I mean we've all heard it plenty of times, even live versions. Since that performance, it seems to have really gained a second life.
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There was something special and electric about Afterlife's performance on Score. I mean we've all heard it plenty of times, even live versions. Since that performance, it seems to have really gained a second life.
I never really appreciated Afterlife until the Score performance. Good song.
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Personally I think the fault at that part of the song lies with the lyrics. Ignoring the vocals entirely for a second, the music in that whole section is dark and heavy. The lyrics for the first 3/4 of it fit fine, but the last couple of lines simply do not. This has nothing to do with the vocals, the lyrics simply don't fit the music. Poor show from JP really, as even when he's off-form lyrically, his words still tend to fit the music.
That just shows that the whole section doesn't work as a finished product, thereby reducing the overall quality of the song as a whole.
Indeed, which is a shame as the rest of the song is seriously good. But as it's only half a minute it doesn't bother me much.
Reap, it definitely works a little better that way round, though not much. The music for the whole section is pretty dark and heavy. The uplifting lyrics just don't really fit at all.
But the lyrics are not uplifting at all. I'm sorry, but if you think they are, you are missing the point of that section.
Yeah, Puppies On Acid was around forever, but as far as I know, that's the only thing they had in any great detail before the writing sessions.
I don't know what was around before then and didn't get played live, but
in addition to Puppies on Acid there was also the whole classical guitar
section of Erotomania that was re-used from an old Pull Me Under demo.
Yes, indeed. I had forgotten about that. Good catch.
What about it?
That it was almost completely written before JLB got into the band. There wasn't any writing sessions in this case.
Yes, but that fact still has nothing whatsoever to do with what I said, hence my question.
IMO, it's one of the few songs on WDaDU where Dominici sounds fairly/really good. That goes a long way towards making it really good for me.
I think that could possibly be because he wrote the vocal melody. At least, I'm assuming he did since he wrote the lyrics. And if that is the case, he would have most likely at least somewhat written to his own strengths in terms of phrasing, note choice, etc. That's my guess anyway, for what it's worth.
I just posed the question to Charlie on his forum to see whether he can shed any light: https://www.dominici.com/forum/index.php?topic=407.0
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Bosk, you better not let Samsara see that first sentence. He's going to get out the "red pen of death"!
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???
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What about it?
That it was almost completely written before JLB got into the band. There wasn't any writing sessions in this case.
Yes, but that fact still has nothing whatsoever to do with what I said, hence my question.
You said: "that's the only thing [Puppies on Acid] they had in any great detail before the writing sessions." Were you referring only to Awake? Because I thought you were talking about in general. Not only Puppies on Acid was written in great detail before Awake writing session, but also Images & Words.
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No, the point was, Puppies on Acid was the only thing they brought with them to the Awake sessions. (other than, as was pointed out above, part of Erotomania, which I had forgotten about)
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???
I saw him correct someone's spelling in a thread the other day. :)
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But...there's nothing misspelled. ???
EDIT: Nevermine, TAC. I figured out what you were talking about. I thought you meant my post here. I went ahead and fixed that. Thanks for pointing it out.
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I think "Afterlife" is quite good, but I don't think it is close to as good as "Only a Matter of Time," "Ytse Jam" or "Light Fuse and Get Away." Just my two cents. :)
You're correct, Kev. Though I think that Afterlife, for being one of the most straightforward songs in WDADU, is one of the most accessible and digestable songs on that album. (Status Seeker, that's another story :P)