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Marillion

Started by tri.ad, April 27, 2009, 12:38:37 PM

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ytserush

Quote from: jammindude on March 28, 2018, 06:17:01 PM
There's quite a few converts already, but the rest of you need to delve into IQs catalog immediately. Much more consistent. And in many cases even better.

Not into IQ at all. But then I never dug all but a few Fates Warning songs either.

The people who suggested it swore that if I liked Marillion and Dream Theater I'd love IQ and Fates Warning. I hear nothing but possible vague tangential similarities that don't approach the real deal.

jammindude

I haven't heard everything yet.  I only have 4 albums, but all are stellar. 

May I ask what you heard?   Maybe there are albums I won't like either.   

ytserush

Quote from: jammindude on March 29, 2018, 09:47:44 PM
I haven't heard everything yet.  I only have 4 albums, but all are stellar. 

May I ask what you heard?   Maybe there are albums I won't like either.
Check your PM for a longer and more boring response to this.

I've heard  Ever, Subterranea, Dark Matter and Frequency. Dark Matter I actually held onto for a few years before selling it.

Ever was talked up to me to be "better than Misplaced Childhood." That may not have been the best of introductions as it was probably least favorite of those four that I have experience with.

I'm no bellwether on this band though.  They've been around nearly as long as Marillion (I guess that's a similarity.) So my experience has been very limited.


NoseofNicko

So today I blind bought Marillion's Marbles because it's considered one of their best albums and I love their early albums. I already had it on my computer so I listened to it and really liked it, but then I realized the version of the album I bought is the 2 disc version which includes OCEAN FUCKING CLOUD! I can't believe they released a version of that album that doesn't include that song! What a fantastic fucking song!

King Puppies and the Acid Guppies

Quote from: NoseofNicko on April 03, 2018, 11:03:49 PM
So today I blind bought Marillion's Marbles because it's considered one of their best albums and I love their early albums. I already had it on my computer so I listened to it and really liked it, but then I realized the version of the album I bought is the 2 disc version which includes OCEAN FUCKING CLOUD! I can't believe they released a version of that album that doesn't include that song! What a fantastic fucking song!
Ocean Cloud is so good! In my opinion the 2 disc version is what makes the album worth it. For example the 2 disc version is my favorite album of all time. The single disc version probably wouldn't crack my top 100.
aka Puppies_On_Acid
Quote from: Evermind on May 06, 2024, 08:39:06 AMHey Stadler, your PM inbox is full.
Quote from: HOF on April 02, 2024, 08:30:16 AMDerek Sherinian probably stands 10 feet away from the urinal, shoots from downtown, and announces loudly that he's making history.
Quote from: TAC, definitely not KingThes sng is are sounds rally nece an I lyke tha sungar

Phoenix87x


Fritzinger

Ocean Cloud is one of the best Marillion songs ever imo.

It is also one of the few Marillion 15min+ songs that follow a leitmotif, if not the only one. Most Marillion longtracks are just short songs played after another (Gaza, the ones on Fear, Montreal, Invisible Man, Grendel, Strange Engine, Interior Lulu). I am not saying these songs are bad, but Ocean Cloud is the only song which makes 100% sense as a SONG.

I will have to get the new Marbles vinyl version with the full album. I dont know why they would release only half the album and leave out the album's best song.

XeRocks81

Quote from: Puppies_On_Acid on April 03, 2018, 11:10:01 PM
Quote from: NoseofNicko on April 03, 2018, 11:03:49 PM
So today I blind bought Marillion's Marbles because it's considered one of their best albums and I love their early albums. I already had it on my computer so I listened to it and really liked it, but then I realized the version of the album I bought is the 2 disc version which includes OCEAN FUCKING CLOUD! I can't believe they released a version of that album that doesn't include that song! What a fantastic fucking song!
Ocean Cloud is so good! In my opinion the 2 disc version is what makes the album worth it. For example the 2 disc version is my favorite album of all time. The single disc version probably wouldn't crack my top 100.

Still, Invisible Man and Neverland are also all-timers.

King Puppies and the Acid Guppies

Quote from: XeRocks81 on April 04, 2018, 07:38:48 AM
Quote from: Puppies_On_Acid on April 03, 2018, 11:10:01 PM
Quote from: NoseofNicko on April 03, 2018, 11:03:49 PM
So today I blind bought Marillion's Marbles because it's considered one of their best albums and I love their early albums. I already had it on my computer so I listened to it and really liked it, but then I realized the version of the album I bought is the 2 disc version which includes OCEAN FUCKING CLOUD! I can't believe they released a version of that album that doesn't include that song! What a fantastic fucking song!
Ocean Cloud is so good! In my opinion the 2 disc version is what makes the album worth it. For example the 2 disc version is my favorite album of all time. The single disc version probably wouldn't crack my top 100.

Still, Invisible Man and Neverland are also all-timers.
No doubt. I love those songs too. But I think the album suffers from not have The Only Unforgivable Thing, Ocean Cloud, and Angelina. The flow of the album makes more sense to me on the 2 disc version as well and makes the ending with Neverland much more powerful.
aka Puppies_On_Acid
Quote from: Evermind on May 06, 2024, 08:39:06 AMHey Stadler, your PM inbox is full.
Quote from: HOF on April 02, 2024, 08:30:16 AMDerek Sherinian probably stands 10 feet away from the urinal, shoots from downtown, and announces loudly that he's making history.
Quote from: TAC, definitely not KingThes sng is are sounds rally nece an I lyke tha sungar

Stadler

Honestly?  I love Marbles, it got me back into the band after falling out with them over the abysmal "This Strange Engine", but after buying the two disk version, and hearing it, I was like "How could they put out a single version without "The Damage" and "Genie"???

I think Ocean Cloud is good, but it's in the top three of "Most Overrated Marillion Songs", along with Grendel and, maybe, Freaks.   

Stadler

Quote from: Puppies_On_Acid on April 04, 2018, 08:49:18 AM
Quote from: XeRocks81 on April 04, 2018, 07:38:48 AM
Quote from: Puppies_On_Acid on April 03, 2018, 11:10:01 PM
Quote from: NoseofNicko on April 03, 2018, 11:03:49 PM
So today I blind bought Marillion's Marbles because it's considered one of their best albums and I love their early albums. I already had it on my computer so I listened to it and really liked it, but then I realized the version of the album I bought is the 2 disc version which includes OCEAN FUCKING CLOUD! I can't believe they released a version of that album that doesn't include that song! What a fantastic fucking song!
Ocean Cloud is so good! In my opinion the 2 disc version is what makes the album worth it. For example the 2 disc version is my favorite album of all time. The single disc version probably wouldn't crack my top 100.

Still, Invisible Man and Neverland are also all-timers.
No doubt. I love those songs too. But I think the album suffers from not have The Only Unforgivable Thing, Ocean Cloud, and Angelina. The flow of the album makes more sense to me on the 2 disc version as well and makes the ending with Neverland much more powerful.

I'm still not 1000% sure how each song fits, and even IF each song fits, but if you listen to Hogarth on the DVD, I think it's "Colors and Sound", I have reason to believe that "The Only Unforgivable Thing" is sort of the thematic key to the whole record.  He's never come clean on it, but I believe that Marbles is a document of Hogarth's marriage/divorce.

RoeDent

There may be some significance as well in the fact that H quotes the opening lines of The Only Unforgivable Thing as his spoken contribution to Dream Theater's Repentance.

romdrums

Quote from: Stadler on April 04, 2018, 09:03:35 AM
Quote from: Puppies_On_Acid on April 04, 2018, 08:49:18 AM
Quote from: XeRocks81 on April 04, 2018, 07:38:48 AM
Quote from: Puppies_On_Acid on April 03, 2018, 11:10:01 PM
Quote from: NoseofNicko on April 03, 2018, 11:03:49 PM
So today I blind bought Marillion's Marbles because it's considered one of their best albums and I love their early albums. I already had it on my computer so I listened to it and really liked it, but then I realized the version of the album I bought is the 2 disc version which includes OCEAN FUCKING CLOUD! I can't believe they released a version of that album that doesn't include that song! What a fantastic fucking song!
Ocean Cloud is so good! In my opinion the 2 disc version is what makes the album worth it. For example the 2 disc version is my favorite album of all time. The single disc version probably wouldn't crack my top 100.

Still, Invisible Man and Neverland are also all-timers.
No doubt. I love those songs too. But I think the album suffers from not have The Only Unforgivable Thing, Ocean Cloud, and Angelina. The flow of the album makes more sense to me on the 2 disc version as well and makes the ending with Neverland much more powerful.

I'm still not 1000% sure how each song fits, and even IF each song fits, but if you listen to Hogarth on the DVD, I think it's "Colors and Sound", I have reason to believe that "The Only Unforgivable Thing" is sort of the thematic key to the whole record.  He's never come clean on it, but I believe that Marbles is a document of Hogarth's marriage/divorce.

From my album discussion on mp.com:

"I've often looked at Marbles as being two sides to a story, or a story that presents two different outcomes based on what choice is made.  For instance, Genie and The Damage present the choice scenarios, and the rest of each disc deals with what happens when those choices are made.  The disc one story begins with the character letting the genie out of the box by acting on his impulses to cheat on his significant other. The consequences being his marriage fails, which causes everything around him to crumble, and he's left with nothing but bitterness, isolation, and feeling adrift on a vast ocean.  Disc two, he resists the urge to cheat on his wife, and in the end, realizes that he made the right decision.  Now, obviously there are different things going on, but it seems plausible."

ytserush

Quote from: Stadler on April 04, 2018, 08:59:54 AM
Honestly?  I love Marbles, it got me back into the band after falling out with them over the abysmal "This Strange Engine", but after buying the two disk version, and hearing it, I was like "How could they put out a single version without "The Damage" and "Genie"???

I think Ocean Cloud is good, but it's in the top three of "Most Overrated Marillion Songs", along with Grendel and, maybe, Freaks.

Ocean Cloud is OK, but I never thought it was a stand out on that album. There's at least a few tracks I'd rather hear more...Neverland being one of them.

Grendel is probably my least favorite Fish-Marillion song while I Freaks is among my favorites.

jammindude

Most overrated Fish song to me goes to almost everything from Script. I just don't get it.   I love MC, and love Clutching even more.   But what people see in The Web and Garden Party and Chelsea Monday....it just baffles me.   I really really like He Knows You Know.  But everything else from that album is either really meh and disjointed or just plain annoying.   

I suppose it doesn't help that I really don't like Fish's voice.  But that doesn't usually bother me that much.  I mean, Perry Farrell is a TERRIBLE singer, but for some reason I absolutely love Jane's Addiction.   I guess that when "all the stars align" (to coin a term) the rest of what's going on can overshadow that one weak point.   But on Script I just don't see where everything else does that.  And it's not just his voice that's bad...sometimes his phrasing and timing is just not pleasant.    But all the cylinders fire perfectly on MC and CAS.  :shrug:

EDIT - I want to say that in spite of all that, I do still occasionally spin those albums because what Fish lacks in vocal talent, he makes up for in poetry.   I'll give him that.   He's a brilliant wordsmith.

SoundscapeMN

I'll confess, when it comes down to it and Epics from my favorite band, I still lean towards Grendel and Ocean Cloud along with The Invisible Man.

Then again Misplaced Childhood to me is a huge SUITE anyway, so that in a way is their best epic overall.

I made a list a few years ago anyway.



ytserush

Quote from: jammindude on April 05, 2018, 09:45:12 PM
Most overrated Fish song to me goes to almost everything from Script. I just don't get it.   I love MC, and love Clutching even more.   But what people see in The Web and Garden Party and Chelsea Monday....it just baffles me.   I really really like He Knows You Know.  But everything else from that album is either really meh and disjointed or just plain annoying.   

I suppose it doesn't help that I really don't like Fish's voice.  But that doesn't usually bother me that much.  I mean, Perry Farrell is a TERRIBLE singer, but for some reason I absolutely love Jane's Addiction.   I guess that when "all the stars align" (to coin a term) the rest of what's going on can overshadow that one weak point.   But on Script I just don't see where everything else does that.  And it's not just his voice that's bad...sometimes his phrasing and timing is just not pleasant.    But all the cylinders fire perfectly on MC and CAS.  :shrug:

EDIT - I want to say that in spite of all that, I do still occasionally spin those albums because what Fish lacks in vocal talent, he makes up for in poetry.   I'll give him that.   He's a brilliant wordsmith.

I don't really like the way the vocals were produced on Script.

Part of that might have been the lack of experience of what they were trying to get at. The live gigs around that time were a different story. I think a lot of the time Fish just went for it and his incredible passion got him through. I sure don't wonder why his voice didn't hold up in later years.(Though not really taking care of his voice didn't help much either.)

I love those early live recordings. I'm not sure I even remember the last time I put that studio album on (Not really a fan of the whole production either.) I'm more inclined to just pull out one of the live gigs and just marvel at the band performance.

jammindude

I finally picked up FEAR.  I actually really like this record so far, but it's quite a bit to digest.   Only 6 songs, and 3 of them over 15 minutes?  One is almost 20?     And the longer pieces (on first listen) tend to meander a bit, but the individual sections are pretty strong.  I have a feeling it's going to grow on me.

Ironically, the weak point on this album is Hogarth.   When he's in his range, he's got beautiful tone.   But he occasionally hits some very sour "off key" notes on this one.   I'm not sure if he left these in intentionally (because the occasional voice crack can be just an emotional moment), but I noticed a few and I just found them a bit grating. 

Going back to the IQ comparison, I will say that Peter Nichols started out sounding like an amatuer, but his voice has matured so amazing that I would say it's the greatest improvement of "younger self vs older self" that I've ever heard.   Hogarth OTOH started out being a huge improvement over Fish (singing talent wise) and has now started to show some serious signs of wear.   

All in all, it's still a pretty good album and I'm sure it's going to grow on me.     (IQ's last two albums are still better.   :rollin )

lonestar

Quote from: jammindude on May 21, 2018, 08:50:23 PM
 

Going back to the IQ comparison, I will say that Peter Nichols started out sounding like an amatuer, but his voice has matured so amazing that I would say it's the greatest improvement of "younger self vs older self" that I've ever heard.   Hogarth OTOH started out being a huge improvement over Fish (singing talent wise) and has now started to show some serious signs of wear.   

All in all, it's still a pretty good album and I'm sure it's going to grow on me.     (IQ's last two albums are still better.   :rollin )

Yeah, the change that happened to Nichols in the period where he left the band for Nadim's Ghost is shocking to say the least. His growth between The Wake and Ever made me speechless when I heard it. (my first IQ album was actually Are You Sitting Comfortably, a Paul Menel album, and I worked my way back to the Nichols albums before Ever came out)

jammindude

Quote from: lonestar on May 21, 2018, 09:14:23 PM
Quote from: jammindude on May 21, 2018, 08:50:23 PM
 

Going back to the IQ comparison, I will say that Peter Nichols started out sounding like an amatuer, but his voice has matured so amazing that I would say it's the greatest improvement of "younger self vs older self" that I've ever heard.   Hogarth OTOH started out being a huge improvement over Fish (singing talent wise) and has now started to show some serious signs of wear.   

All in all, it's still a pretty good album and I'm sure it's going to grow on me.     (IQ's last two albums are still better.   :rollin )

Yeah, the change that happened to Nichols in the period where he left the band for Nadim's Ghost is shocking to say the least. His growth between The Wake and Ever made me speechless when I heard it. (my first IQ album was actually Are You Sitting Comfortably, a Paul Menel album, and I worked my way back to the Nichols albums before Ever came out)

Where you REALLY see the difference is when you hear modern live versions of older material.   I just recently saw a (fairly recent) live performance of Last Human Gateway, and right from the intro it was obvious how much he had improved from his younger self.   

lonestar

Totally man. Really hoping he bust a few older tracks out when I see them in October, I'd love to hear the middle part of Human Gateway or Enemy Smacks as a treat. Whatever I get I'll be pleased with, but a man can wish, right?

ytserush

Quote from: jammindude on May 21, 2018, 08:50:23 PM
I finally picked up FEAR.  I actually really like this record so far, but it's quite a bit to digest.   Only 6 songs, and 3 of them over 15 minutes?  One is almost 20?     And the longer pieces (on first listen) tend to meander a bit, but the individual sections are pretty strong.  I have a feeling it's going to grow on me.

Ironically, the weak point on this album is Hogarth.   When he's in his range, he's got beautiful tone.   But he occasionally hits some very sour "off key" notes on this one.   I'm not sure if he left these in intentionally (because the occasional voice crack can be just an emotional moment), but I noticed a few and I just found them a bit grating. 


Not that I don't love the studio album (I do and it's a favorite) but the real genius of this album comes across live (For me anyway)

I generally don't have much of an opinion on long songs other than I think the really amazing ones seem to be over before they should be and the ones that aren't are fairly easy to notice. But your mileage may vary.

ClairvoyantCat

Quote from: jammindude on May 21, 2018, 08:50:23 PM

Ironically, the weak point on this album is Hogarth.   When he's in his range, he's got beautiful tone.   But he occasionally hits some very sour "off key" notes on this one.   I'm not sure if he left these in intentionally (because the occasional voice crack can be just an emotional moment), but I noticed a few and I just found them a bit grating. 


I find it really refreshing to hear a singer who doesnt artificially perfect all of his singing in the studio.  For a 60 year old giving a very honest and unenhanced performance I think he does great.

lonestar

Marillion reference in the second season of Shooter on Netflix, Ep5, about 29 minutes in. They namedrop the band with Brave playing in the background. Earlier in the episode the guy is trying to prove his identity by asking the question "who is the greatest band ever?"

Someone on the show is a huge fan  :lol

Stadler

They got name-dropped on Sports Center once; I want to say it was John Buccigross, but I could be wrong. 

ytserush

Quote from: ClairvoyantCat on May 26, 2018, 03:48:03 PM
Quote from: jammindude on May 21, 2018, 08:50:23 PM

Ironically, the weak point on this album is Hogarth.   When he's in his range, he's got beautiful tone.   But he occasionally hits some very sour "off key" notes on this one.   I'm not sure if he left these in intentionally (because the occasional voice crack can be just an emotional moment), but I noticed a few and I just found them a bit grating. 


I find it really refreshing to hear a singer who doesnt artificially perfect all of his singing in the studio.  For a 60 year old giving a very honest and unenhanced performance I think he does great.

Other than Season's End, Holidays In Eden, This Strange Engine, Radiation and Marbles I really haven't liked Hogarth's voice until about 5 years ago.   For me, I think he's settled into a nice sweet spot, especially live.

Cyclopssss

Listening to Afraid of sunlight now and I finally get why everybody loves this one so much. It's a real thing of beauty. Hogarth's albums have always been a hit or miss with me, but this one, Season's End, Brave and sounds that can't be made are all great.

Fritzinger

Quote from: Cyclopssss on June 04, 2018, 02:30:36 AM
Listening to Afraid of sunlight now and I finally get why everybody loves this one so much. It's a real thing of beauty. Hogarth's albums have always been a hit or miss with me, but this one, Season's End, Brave and sounds that can't be made are all great.

I don't know everything by them yet (most of it though), but I always liked the H era more than the Fish era. While the Fish era was always very (very) Genesis inspired, I feel like they found their own sound with H. Sounds That Can't Be Made, Marbles (duh), Anoraknophobia and Happiness Is The Road (just good pop stuff) are my favorites. For me it's not a hit of miss for albums though. Sometimes there are great songs on albums I otherwise don't care for.

Mindflux

Quote from: Cyclopssss on June 04, 2018, 02:30:36 AM
Listening to Afraid of sunlight now and I finally get why everybody loves this one so much. It's a real thing of beauty. Hogarth's albums have always been a hit or miss with me, but this one, Season's End, Brave and sounds that can't be made are all great.

AoS was my first Marillion album.  It's not my favorite one, but it's got a lot of good tracks on it.

Stadler

Quote from: Fritzinger on June 04, 2018, 03:08:44 AM
Quote from: Cyclopssss on June 04, 2018, 02:30:36 AM
Listening to Afraid of sunlight now and I finally get why everybody loves this one so much. It's a real thing of beauty. Hogarth's albums have always been a hit or miss with me, but this one, Season's End, Brave and sounds that can't be made are all great.

I don't know everything by them yet (most of it though), but I always liked the H era more than the Fish era. While the Fish era was always very (very) Genesis inspired, I feel like they found their own sound with H. Sounds That Can't Be Made, Marbles (duh), Anoraknophobia and Happiness Is The Road (just good pop stuff) are my favorites. For me it's not a hit of miss for albums though. Sometimes there are great songs on albums I otherwise don't care for.

No, no, no.    Yes, Fish sounded a little like a cross between Gabriel and Collins, and you have moments - the ending section of Grendel, the intro to "He Knows You Know", but Fish-era Marillion was WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY more influenced by Pink Floyd than Genesis (this is, in my opinion, why there is a Floyd album on the cover to "Fugazi" and not a "Genesis" album).  Hell, the Sugar Mice solo is almost a direct lift of "Mother". 

I was in on Marillion since about '84, '85, so for me, going through the breakup, it was tough.  I LOVED Season's End (saw the tour), but HATED Holiday's In Eden (saw that tour as well).    I really liked Brave but it took a while to get into, and honestly I hated, HATED Afraid... when I first heard it.  Then I REALLY hated "This Strange Engine", so much so that I gave up on Marillion until Marbles came out.  To this day I still hate TSE, though Afraid... has grown on me, and around the time of the two-disk remasters, it really clicked with me and now it's one of my favorites. 

I rarely ever say this about any band, but I think I wish Marillion to work with Dave Meegan again as much or moreso than I would ever want them to work with Fish again (I love Fish, seen him three times solo, but I just think he's a spent force creatively at this point).   

ClairvoyantCat

Meegan very clearly brings out the best in the band.  The 4 albums he's done with them are my 4 favorite Marilliom albums.  Would be stoked for them to hook up with him again but also nervous of such an unbelievable track record being tarnished.

Cyclopssss

What Fish lacked in vocal skills he made up for in spades with expression and theatrics. I can't see Hogarth in a harlequin costume and facepaint, for some reason. What I especially like about the sound on AOS is that the band almost sounds like Classic Marillion.

ytserush

Quote from: Cyclopssss on June 04, 2018, 02:30:36 AM
Listening to Afraid of sunlight now and I finally get why everybody loves this one so much. It's a real thing of beauty. Hogarth's albums have always been a hit or miss with me, but this one, Season's End, Brave and sounds that can't be made are all great.

I've kind of had an epiphany with Afraid of Sunlight over the last five years or so.

Didn't like Brave at all and then this comes out. Cannibal Surf Babe?  Really?  Pretty much killed the Marillion collector instinct I once had.

The only song I really liked out of the box was King and maybe Gazpacho.  It took a few times hearing some of the songs live for them to register a pulse for me. (Still not happening with Brave although the songs are a LITTLE better.) So I guess I consider about half of the album now to be pretty much classic Hogarth-Marillion for me.

ytserush

Quote from: Stadler on June 04, 2018, 07:37:02 AM
I love Fish, seen him three times solo, but I just think he's a spent force creatively at this point).

I feel pretty confident in saying you haven't listened to Feast of Consequences or The Movable Feast (The live album) yet. I think he's at a creative peak myself.

ytserush