Author Topic: Marillion  (Read 236560 times)

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Offline Stadler

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Re: Marillion
« Reply #805 on: July 11, 2016, 09:05:10 AM »
Am I the only one that doesn't give a flying f*** about the song lengths?  Some people here are like "16 minutes!  Woo hoo!" and yet... what does it matter?    Heart of Lothian is my favorite Marillion song.  4:08.  Cinderella Search, top five song.  5:46.
After Me, top ten song.  3:20.  Gaza?  BO-RING!

Good music is good music, regardless of length. 

Offline Scorpion

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Re: Marillion
« Reply #806 on: July 11, 2016, 09:12:31 AM »
I agree with your overall point, but Gaza is fucking amazing.
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Hey, the length is fine :azn: Thanks!

Offline RoeDent

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Re: Marillion
« Reply #807 on: July 11, 2016, 09:24:46 AM »
Lengths matter hugely. It gives us perspective on the album and its structure. Everyone knows that most of the greatest prog songs are epics; you can't deny that.

Offline goo-goo

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Re: Marillion
« Reply #808 on: July 11, 2016, 10:27:32 AM »
Am I the only one that doesn't give a flying f*** about the song lengths?  Some people here are like "16 minutes!  Woo hoo!" and yet... what does it matter?    Heart of Lothian is my favorite Marillion song.  4:08.  Cinderella Search, top five song.  5:46.
After Me, top ten song.  3:20.  Gaza?  BO-RING!

Good music is good music, regardless of length.

+1

Same for me.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Marillion
« Reply #809 on: July 11, 2016, 11:43:42 AM »
Lengths matter hugely. It gives us perspective on the album and its structure. Everyone knows that most of the greatest prog songs are epics; you can't deny that.

Eh.   No.   I wrote a bit about the "ten best prog bands" and how their greatest songs are largely less than 8:00 and then lost it, so there you go.  But I think length is HUGELY over-rated.

In song length.  ;)

Offline seasonsinthesky

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Re: Marillion
« Reply #810 on: July 11, 2016, 02:15:05 PM »
Lengths matter hugely. It gives us perspective on the album and its structure. Everyone knows that most of the greatest prog songs are epics; you can't deny that.

In prog, absolutely. If you're supposed to be prog-whatever and you can't write a good epic, something's gone awry.

Most other genres, it's irrelevant.

Offline RoeDent

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Re: Marillion
« Reply #811 on: July 11, 2016, 03:02:42 PM »
I have a theory why bands (such as Marillion on their new album) make epics run across several tracks nowadays. You can buy individual tracks off albums. Say the price was 99p per track, regardless of length. So a 23-minute song would cost the same to download individually as a 4-minute song. Whereas if the 23-minute song was split across four tracks, it would cost £3.96 if you wanted that song. Perhaps a better reflection of the more significant chunk of the album that the epic takes up.

Offline Scorpion

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Re: Marillion
« Reply #812 on: July 11, 2016, 03:27:38 PM »
That's plausible. I haven't thought about it a lot, except that it kinda annoys me because I do a lot of my listening to music on shuffle, so I'll probably just end up putting all the parts into one song so that that works out.
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Online The Letter M

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Re: Marillion
« Reply #813 on: July 11, 2016, 04:03:47 PM »
I have a theory why bands (such as Marillion on their new album) make epics run across several tracks nowadays. You can buy individual tracks off albums. Say the price was 99p per track, regardless of length. So a 23-minute song would cost the same to download individually as a 4-minute song. Whereas if the 23-minute song was split across four tracks, it would cost £3.96 if you wanted that song. Perhaps a better reflection of the more significant chunk of the album that the epic takes up.

Not really. Most websites, like Amazon, will not put longer tracks up for individual sale. They'll say "Album Only", which means you'd have to buy the WHOLE album to get those longer tracks. I've seen some prog albums with lengthy tracks and one or two shorter songs, and only THOSE one or two tracks will be available for purchase as single mp3s!!!

So I don't think dividing the epics up is a monetary decision. Splitting them up hardly makes sense digitally anyway since they'll flow and segue into each other, so what happens if you don't buy the whole album? You end up with parts of a song that don't have their next parts, or some other stupid reason. Epics, with movements, should be single tracks, IMO, when in digital stores. It makes the most sense musically, and doesn't ruin the integrity of the piece by dicing it up.

As for whether or not length matters, I'd say so for the case of Marillion. When I ran the Marillion Survivor 5 years ago, a lot of the band's longer tracks were in the top 1 or 2 spots for their respective albums:
"This Strange Engine" placed 1st on its album (the longest track on the album)
"A Few Words For The Dead" placed 1st on the album Radiation (the longest track on the album)
"Interior Lulu" and "House" placed 1st and 2nd respectively on the album marillion.com (both over 10 minutes long)
"Quartz", "This Is The 21st Century" and "If My Heart Were A Ball" were the top 3 from Anoraknophobia (all over 9 minutes long)
"Neverland", "The Invisible Man" and "Ocean Cloud" were the top 3 from Marbles (all over 12 minutes long)
"Somewhere Else" placed 1st on its album (the longest track on the album)
"Happiness Is The Road" placed 1st on Volume 1 of the 2-part album (the longest track of Volume 1)
"Grendel" placed 1st among the band's Fish-Era B-Sides

So yeah, even here, Marillion fans look forward to the band's epics. They're sprawling musical canvases painted with strong emotional strokes of instrumental skill. While their epics might not ALWAYS be what *some* fans enjoy, for many, they're highlights to an album, sometimes the epic opener or closer, or at very least, the centerpiece. In the case of Marbles, the epics were ALL THREE.

-Marc.
ATTENTION - HAKEN FANS! The HAKEN SURVIVOR 2023 has begun! You can check it out in the Polls/Survivors Forum!!!

Offline Stadler

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Re: Marillion
« Reply #814 on: July 11, 2016, 07:20:26 PM »
I have a theory why bands (such as Marillion on their new album) make epics run across several tracks nowadays. You can buy individual tracks off albums. Say the price was 99p per track, regardless of length. So a 23-minute song would cost the same to download individually as a 4-minute song. Whereas if the 23-minute song was split across four tracks, it would cost £3.96 if you wanted that song. Perhaps a better reflection of the more significant chunk of the album that the epic takes up.

Not really. Most websites, like Amazon, will not put longer tracks up for individual sale. They'll say "Album Only", which means you'd have to buy the WHOLE album to get those longer tracks. I've seen some prog albums with lengthy tracks and one or two shorter songs, and only THOSE one or two tracks will be available for purchase as single mp3s!!!

So I don't think dividing the epics up is a monetary decision. Splitting them up hardly makes sense digitally anyway since they'll flow and segue into each other, so what happens if you don't buy the whole album? You end up with parts of a song that don't have their next parts, or some other stupid reason. Epics, with movements, should be single tracks, IMO, when in digital stores. It makes the most sense musically, and doesn't ruin the integrity of the piece by dicing it up.

As for whether or not length matters, I'd say so for the case of Marillion. When I ran the Marillion Survivor 5 years ago, a lot of the band's longer tracks were in the top 1 or 2 spots for their respective albums:
"This Strange Engine" placed 1st on its album (the longest track on the album)
"A Few Words For The Dead" placed 1st on the album Radiation (the longest track on the album)
"Interior Lulu" and "House" placed 1st and 2nd respectively on the album marillion.com (both over 10 minutes long)
"Quartz", "This Is The 21st Century" and "If My Heart Were A Ball" were the top 3 from Anoraknophobia (all over 9 minutes long)
"Neverland", "The Invisible Man" and "Ocean Cloud" were the top 3 from Marbles (all over 12 minutes long)
"Somewhere Else" placed 1st on its album (the longest track on the album)
"Happiness Is The Road" placed 1st on Volume 1 of the 2-part album (the longest track of Volume 1)
"Grendel" placed 1st among the band's Fish-Era B-Sides

So yeah, even here, Marillion fans look forward to the band's epics. They're sprawling musical canvases painted with strong emotional strokes of instrumental skill. While their epics might not ALWAYS be what *some* fans enjoy, for many, they're highlights to an album, sometimes the epic opener or closer, or at very least, the centerpiece. In the case of Marbles, the epics were ALL THREE.

-Marc.

Not sure how to say this without sounding more dick-like than I mean to, but it's sort of a self-fulfilling prophesy, the pointing to the 20 people that valye length and saying "yeah, fans value length". 

For me - a Marillion fan since '85; I bought Misplaced Childhood upon release - NONE of the epics are in my top ten, except for Neverland, and let's be honest, there's a full minute, minute and a half at the end that is non-essential. 

Top five albums (Best song):
Clutching at Straws (Slainthe Mhathe 4:44)
Brave (Lap of Luxury, listed at 8:13, but it's two songs together)
Misplaced Childhood (Heart of Lothian 4:08)
Afraid of Sunlight (Afraid of Sunlight 6:49)
Marbles (Neverland 12:10)

Best b-sides:
Cinderella Search (5:32)
Tux On (5:13)
Lady Nina (5:50)


I know "best" is "taste", but one man's "sprawling musical canvas painted with strong emotional strokes of instrumental skill" are another man's bloated incoherent ramblings.  Marillion is best when concise and direct and to the point.  Musical assassins, so to speak. 

Online The Letter M

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Re: Marillion
« Reply #815 on: July 11, 2016, 07:54:50 PM »
Different strokes for different folks, I suppose.

Just because I, or anyone else, enjoy the band's epics/longer songs a lot doesn't mean I dislike/hate their shorter songs, either. And I think it speaks to the band's strengths as musicians and writers that ALL of their music, be it their shorter songs or their longer epics, can be liked by their fans.

If all of their fans enjoyed JUST the epics, then we can't really say that the band is good at writing anything BUT those types of songs. Conversely, if a band wrote really great shorter songs, but their epics weren't liked by ANYONE, then we'd have to say that their epics weren't really that great. But since, at least here, we've got fans who like both by the same band, it just seems to me that they've got strengths in BOTH categories, and that's pretty prog of them right there. They can throw all of their really great hooks and musical chops into a 4-6 minute piece, while keeping it concise, or they can spread it would, create some atmospheric stuff and really stretch out an idea and still keep it interesting too.

Either way, a band like Marillion has always had a "YMMV" vibe, so it's nice to see a lot of varying opinions regarding their music. It'd be pretty boring of them if EVERYONE liked the same songs, wouldn't it?

-Marc.
ATTENTION - HAKEN FANS! The HAKEN SURVIVOR 2023 has begun! You can check it out in the Polls/Survivors Forum!!!

Offline RoeDent

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Re: Marillion
« Reply #816 on: July 12, 2016, 12:58:32 AM »
Splitting them up hardly makes sense digitally anyway since they'll flow and segue into each other, so what happens if you don't buy the whole album? You end up with parts of a song that don't have their next parts, or some other stupid reason. Epics, with movements, should be single tracks, IMO, when in digital stores. It makes the most sense musically, and doesn't ruin the integrity of the piece by dicing it up.

I agree. When I see an epic that's split up, I have to consciously force myself to recognize it as one piece. It doesn't come as naturally as seeing it as one track. And the "pick your favourite section" argument is irrelevant. You either go on the whole journey of the song, or don't.


Quote
As for whether or not length matters, I'd say so for the case of Marillion. When I ran the Marillion Survivor 5 years ago, a lot of the band's longer tracks were in the top 1 or 2 spots for their respective albums:
"This Strange Engine" placed 1st on its album (the longest track on the album)
"A Few Words For The Dead" placed 1st on the album Radiation (the longest track on the album)
"Interior Lulu" and "House" placed 1st and 2nd respectively on the album marillion.com (both over 10 minutes long)
"Quartz", "This Is The 21st Century" and "If My Heart Were A Ball" were the top 3 from Anoraknophobia (all over 9 minutes long)
"Neverland", "The Invisible Man" and "Ocean Cloud" were the top 3 from Marbles (all over 12 minutes long)
"Somewhere Else" placed 1st on its album (the longest track on the album)
"Happiness Is The Road" placed 1st on Volume 1 of the 2-part album (the longest track of Volume 1)
"Grendel" placed 1st among the band's Fish-Era B-Sides

So yeah, even here, Marillion fans look forward to the band's epics. They're sprawling musical canvases painted with strong emotional strokes of instrumental skill. While their epics might not ALWAYS be what *some* fans enjoy, for many, they're highlights to an album, sometimes the epic opener or closer, or at very least, the centerpiece. In the case of Marbles, the epics were ALL THREE.

-Marc.

Boom. Proof. Of course there are going to be those who disagree, but even they can't deny that, to MANY prog fans, the epics are the most anticipated, and in many cases end up being the favourite song of MANY prog fans.

And bringing it back to Marbles, the three epics there are perfectly placed at the beginning, middle (near enough) and end of the album. The three pillars on which the rest of the album, well, rests.


Offline Prog Snob

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Re: Marillion
« Reply #817 on: July 12, 2016, 05:44:44 AM »
Not sure how to say this without sounding more dick-like than I mean to, but it's sort of a self-fulfilling prophesy, the pointing to the 20 people that valye length and saying "yeah, fans value length". 

For me - a Marillion fan since '85; I bought Misplaced Childhood upon release - NONE of the epics are in my top ten, except for Neverland, and let's be honest, there's a full minute, minute and a half at the end that is non-essential. 

Top five albums (Best song):
Clutching at Straws (Slainthe Mhathe 4:44)
Brave (Lap of Luxury, listed at 8:13, but it's two songs together)
Misplaced Childhood (Heart of Lothian 4:08)
Afraid of Sunlight (Afraid of Sunlight 6:49)
Marbles (Neverland 12:10)

Best b-sides:
Cinderella Search (5:32)
Tux On (5:13)
Lady Nina (5:50)


I know "best" is "taste", but one man's "sprawling musical canvas painted with strong emotional strokes of instrumental skill" are another man's bloated incoherent ramblings.  Marillion is best when concise and direct and to the point.  Musical assassins, so to speak. 

All of that is just an opinion, no more or no less provable than Letter M's. The fact is that many prog fans do tend to love the epic, 10+ minute pieces that a band writes. Prog fans, more than fans of most other types of music, are open to longer pieces of music.  That doesn't mean they are against shorter songs. Saying that "Marillion is best when concise and direct and to the point" is just an opinion. Many fans would disagree. Neither are more right than the other because what we enjoy is relative. However, many prog fans do like their epics and that isn't something that should be neglected because you, or someone else, thinks the shorter songs are better. For the record, saying that 20 people value length as some kind of argument to prove your point is completely inaccurate.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Marillion
« Reply #818 on: July 12, 2016, 08:04:21 AM »
All of that is just an opinion, no more or no less provable than Letter M's. The fact is that many prog fans do tend to love the epic, 10+ minute pieces that a band writes. Prog fans, more than fans of most other types of music, are open to longer pieces of music.  That doesn't mean they are against shorter songs. Saying that "Marillion is best when concise and direct and to the point" is just an opinion. Many fans would disagree. Neither are more right than the other because what we enjoy is relative. However, many prog fans do like their epics and that isn't something that should be neglected because you, or someone else, thinks the shorter songs are better. For the record, saying that 20 people value length as some kind of argument to prove your point is completely inaccurate.

Of course you're right.  No question and no argument.  But I'm responding in kind to things like "Boom. Proof.".   It's not proof.   And while I agree that it is opinion, I don't at all agree that "MANY" qualifies.   And finally, even if I'm wrong on all that - which I may well be - the REAL point is that the TIME ITSELF isn't what makes it great.   There's no way, subjectively or objectively to look at a song, unheard, see the length, and say "CLASSIC!".  Which is what a lot of this sounds like.   

At the end, though, to each their own.   But I'd much rather sit through four-and-three-quarters plays of "Heart of Lothian" than one play of "Grendel's Ready", or five plays of "After Me" than one of "Gaza" (though "Neverland" makes my top five Marillion song list). 

Offline Stadler

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Re: Marillion
« Reply #819 on: July 12, 2016, 08:09:38 AM »
On a more positive note, do we know what Marillion studio albums have been released in 5.1? 

I think Radiation (2013) and Sounds That Can't Be Made are the only two.  Anyone know different?

Offline RoeDent

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Re: Marillion
« Reply #820 on: July 12, 2016, 10:18:33 AM »
And finally, even if I'm wrong on all that - which I may well be - the REAL point is that the TIME ITSELF isn't what makes it great.   There's no way, subjectively or objectively to look at a song, unheard, see the length, and say "CLASSIC!".  Which is what a lot of this sounds like.

 :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:  Of course not! I never even said that! But the long songs have such a good track record of being great pieces of music that some/many/most (delete as applicable) fans mentally highlight those tracks as ones to listen out for.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Marillion
« Reply #821 on: July 12, 2016, 12:28:50 PM »
And finally, even if I'm wrong on all that - which I may well be - the REAL point is that the TIME ITSELF isn't what makes it great.   There's no way, subjectively or objectively to look at a song, unheard, see the length, and say "CLASSIC!".  Which is what a lot of this sounds like.

 :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:  Of course not! I never even said that! But the long songs have such a good track record of being great pieces of music that some/many/most (delete as applicable) fans mentally highlight those tracks as ones to listen out for.

Hey, look, at the end of the say, we're both talking about a band we both love (I mean, I do, and I'm assuming you do too) so it's all good.  Friendly arguing so to speak.   All I'm saying is that for me it's not the case.  I don't love Grendel as a lot of other early fans do, I think This Strange Engine BLOWS hard - I literally stopped listening to the band after this album, and only came back after I caught snippets of Marbles - and am not enamored with the longer songs on marillion.com, so for me it is at best meaningless information for me until I can hear the song itself. 

We're all good. I don't begrudge you your optimism.  :)

Offline Prog Snob

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Re: Marillion
« Reply #822 on: July 12, 2016, 12:54:04 PM »
All of that is just an opinion, no more or no less provable than Letter M's. The fact is that many prog fans do tend to love the epic, 10+ minute pieces that a band writes. Prog fans, more than fans of most other types of music, are open to longer pieces of music.  That doesn't mean they are against shorter songs. Saying that "Marillion is best when concise and direct and to the point" is just an opinion. Many fans would disagree. Neither are more right than the other because what we enjoy is relative. However, many prog fans do like their epics and that isn't something that should be neglected because you, or someone else, thinks the shorter songs are better. For the record, saying that 20 people value length as some kind of argument to prove your point is completely inaccurate.

Of course you're right.  No question and no argument.  But I'm responding in kind to things like "Boom. Proof.".   It's not proof.   And while I agree that it is opinion, I don't at all agree that "MANY" qualifies.   And finally, even if I'm wrong on all that - which I may well be - the REAL point is that the TIME ITSELF isn't what makes it great.   There's no way, subjectively or objectively to look at a song, unheard, see the length, and say "CLASSIC!".  Which is what a lot of this sounds like.   

At the end, though, to each their own.   But I'd much rather sit through four-and-three-quarters plays of "Heart of Lothian" than one play of "Grendel's Ready", or five plays of "After Me" than one of "Gaza" (though "Neverland" makes my top five Marillion song list).

I was agreeing with you until that last sentence in the first paragraph. I'm not sure who said that here. Maybe I missed it or maybe you're just speaking in general about how some fans are. I don't doubt that there are a select few out there who just see a song's length and judge it based on that.

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Re: Marillion
« Reply #823 on: September 02, 2016, 12:26:24 PM »
US Tour dates up!:

https://marillion.com/tour


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Re: Marillion
« Reply #824 on: September 02, 2016, 12:28:04 PM »

Offline SoundscapeMN

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Re: Marillion
« Reply #825 on: September 02, 2016, 12:56:25 PM »
hoping to see dates for Next Spring soon (I'm unlikely to make a show this fall unfortunately).

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Re: Marillion
« Reply #826 on: September 04, 2016, 12:32:38 PM »
This band is still the biggest failure for me ever.  I tried like hell to get into them, trying many songs from many albums, and they never really stuck. I like probably 10-15 songs of theirs (most of which are from Misplaced Childhood and Clutching at Straws), but even those are ones I just kinda like.

Also, the end of Goodbye to All That on Brave that leads into Hard as Love is the biggest tease ever. That last minute is really awesome, easily one of the two coolest things I have ever heard by them (along with the Easter guitar solo), and then it goes into the boring ass Hard as Love. They should have taken that minute and made a whole song out of it.  :facepalm: :censored


Well admittedly, that whole Brave album is my cure for insomnia. I've pretty much determined that it's my least favorite Marillion album ever (With Afraid of Sunlight and Less is More not far behind...)

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Re: Marillion
« Reply #827 on: September 04, 2016, 12:38:57 PM »
Um, SACRILEGE ALERT, but don't build up "Ocean Cloud" too much.  It's a good song, but I can't say it is SOOOOO much better than the rest of Marbles.  "Neverland" is the standout track on that album by any standard.   

I honestly think that "Ocean Cloud" gets the love because it's a) long, and b) because the band built up the mystique by making it exclusive to the deluxe version (which is for the hard core fans primarily, and to my knowledge, not available except from the website).

Ocean Cloud is OK but Neverland is RIDICULOUS live.

Can't say I listen to the studio version of Marbles much having been pretty much married to the official bootleg from the TLA in Philly on that tour (Of course being there probably helped.) but that's probably one of my favorite Hogarth albums along with Seasons End, This Strange Engine and Radiation.

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Re: Marillion
« Reply #828 on: September 04, 2016, 12:42:10 PM »
First time, ever, listening to this band today. Half way through listening to Misplaced Childhood and got to say it's a VERY impressive first listen. Sure to be giving this plenty more listens  :tup

Misplaced childhood is a great album from start to finish.  That's almost perfect. Marillion was one of the very few prog band of the 80's at a time when that style was at its lowest popularity probably.

Yet, they were selling out stadiums in Europe. Sadly, they were still playing clubs in the US.

Offline ytserush

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Re: Marillion
« Reply #829 on: September 04, 2016, 12:50:00 PM »


These went on sale last December (about 10 months before show time), but we finally decided to pull the trigger on a show this weekend before the album release causes another spike in ticket sales. I didn't think the Keswick was going to sell out, but it's almost there because they don't appear to be selling balcony seats.

Offline lonestar

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Re: Marillion
« Reply #830 on: September 22, 2016, 10:13:17 PM »
Just got my download link for FEAR.... game on suckahs!!!

Offline RoeDent

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Re: Marillion
« Reply #831 on: September 23, 2016, 03:22:48 AM »
Considering a brand new album by one of prog's biggest bands is out today, this thread should be more active than it is right now.

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Re: Marillion
« Reply #832 on: September 23, 2016, 05:24:25 AM »
Indeed it should be. I'm sure once people hear it there will be more discussion about it.

Offline goo-goo

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Re: Marillion
« Reply #833 on: September 23, 2016, 07:24:53 PM »
Loving this album.

Offline lonestar

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Re: Marillion
« Reply #834 on: September 23, 2016, 08:33:24 PM »
Agreed, they fucking hit it out of the park on this one. Eldorado and White Paper are early favorites, but that of course could change.



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Re: Marillion
« Reply #835 on: September 24, 2016, 02:51:13 AM »
Incredible album. I'm stunned how good this is. Spent all day listening to it yesterday and I think this is giving me the same feeling I had with Hand.Cannot.Erase. I'm listening to a landmark album and a modern classic.

Offline King Postwhore

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Re: Marillion
« Reply #836 on: September 24, 2016, 07:42:39 AM »
Agreed, they fucking hit it out of the park on this one. Eldorado and White Paper are early favorites, but that of course could change.

I need to pick it up right now.
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Offline RoeDent

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Re: Marillion
« Reply #837 on: September 24, 2016, 08:26:31 AM »
Marillion are great at album closers. Fugazi, King, A Few Words for the Dead, Neverland, to name just a few. Admittedly, Made Again isn't one of those great closers. They should have just ended Brave with Great Escape, imho.

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Re: Marillion
« Reply #838 on: September 30, 2016, 07:40:00 AM »
After a few listens it's safe to say that this is Marillion's best album since Anoraknophobia (to me) :tup The Leavers and White Paper are my early favorites, though The New Kings still sounds great after a couple of months. Also, the pictures in the extended booklet of the special edition look gorgeous.

Offline Prog Snob

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Re: Marillion
« Reply #839 on: September 30, 2016, 07:54:38 AM »
It's on Spotify so I just started listening.