Nightwish...

[Ben_Jamin]

I personally love the entire concept behind Human :II: Nature.  Both Noise and Music are among top Nightwish for me.

[ariich]

Yeah the first disc of Human Nature is the best thing they've done and Floor shines more than on EFMB. The second disc is pretty cool but definitely a bit of a novelty and kind of its own thing (I'm not in any way suggesting it's not really part of the album, I just mean they are two distinct discs that do their own thing).

[The Curious Orange]

Wasn't the delay due to the fact that rather than going album tour album tour once again, they preferred to do a greatest hits / rarities tour instead?

By all accounts the decision to do the Decades tour came about because Tuomas was suffering from writer's block and didn't have any ideas for a new album.

[fadetoblackdude7]

Wasn't the delay due to the fact that rather than going album tour album tour once again, they preferred to do a greatest hits / rarities tour instead?

By all accounts the decision to do the Decades tour came about because Tuomas was suffering from writer's block and didn't have any ideas for a new album.

I’m not complaining though. That was by far the best Nightwish tour I’ve seen!

[cramx3]

Sounds like a lot of assumption going on here.... but I do agree that something likely isn't right within the band.  I mean, there's a lot of history of things not being right so even if the band says all is well, it's hard to think otherwise when they are planning a long hiatus.

Wasn't the delay due to the fact that rather than going album tour album tour once again, they preferred to do a greatest hits / rarities tour instead?

By all accounts the decision to do the Decades tour came about because Tuomas was suffering from writer's block and didn't have any ideas for a new album.

I’m not complaining though. That was by far the best Nightwish tour I’ve seen!

Yeah, that show was incredible and her performance on the old stuff was really great.

Also, to go back to my Tarja comment, if anyone cares, she did one Nightwish song on her recent US tour. 

Tarja - Nemo (Nightwish) LIVE @ Gramercy Theater New York City NY 6/17/2023

[425]

Sounds like a lot of assumption going on here.... but I do agree that something likely isn't right within the band.  I mean, there's a lot of history of things not being right so even if the band says all is well, it's hard to think otherwise when they are planning a long hiatus.

I also think we don't have enough evidence to know what exactly is going on, but I think people sometimes don't notice the fact that in the last 10 years Nightwish has become even more "Tuomas and friends" than it ever was before. Only two people who were in the band in 2012 are still in it today: Tuomas and Emppu. And it's clear that anyone except those two would be instantly replaced if they decided to leave or even just wanted to take a break that Tuomas didn't want to take. Anette Olzon can certainly attest to that. And even Marko, the secondary creative force in the band, was quickly replaced. Even though Floor has become the face of the band in the last decade and has brought them broader attention, does anyone doubt that if she didn't fit what Tuomas wanted, there would quickly be a new singer?

I'm not saying this by way of bashing Tuomas, by the way. The impression I get is that he can be capricious and difficult to work with, but I don't know that. And Nightwish is certainly not unique in having a band-leader-plus-supporting-cast dynamic. When the band leader is the dominant creative force, I think that can make sense.

I'm saying this by way of suggesting that anything Nightwish does, it does because Tuomas wants it. So instead of wondering if there's interpersonal tension (as I would if, say, DT suddenly and strangely announced a hiatus), I would wonder why Tuomas wants to stop touring. Because if it was a case where he wanted to keep going and others wanted to stop, I think they'd keep going with or without them. (The one x-factor here is Emppu; he's the only one I'm not certain that Tuomas would be happy to replace.)

[MirrorMask]

And even Marko, the secondary creative force in the band, was quickly replaced.

Was he? they replaced the bassist, sure. But they lost, aside a creative force, a male lead singer and they didn't replace him. They just made do without the songs that require a strong male lead vocal, or gave those parts to Floor and Troy. I don't consider Marko being fully and completely replaced.

Even though Floor has become the face of the band in the last decade and has brought them broader attention, does anyone doubt that if she didn't fit what Tuomas wanted, there would quickly be a new singer?

Of course if it becomes a do or die situation it's Floor that goes and not Tuomas, but by now getting rid of Floor is a suicide. She's universally accepted and loved in the fanbase, she can do justice to the entire catalogue and by now, with band members going one by one, she's the only one that makes it feel like something resembling a band anymore and not just "Tuomas and whoever wants to work with him".

Nightwish had 3 singers already, they won't survive losing Floor. Of course Tuomas is Nightwish, but also Steve Harris is Iron Maiden and he needs Bruce Dickinson. Tuomas needs Floor, just as Floor needs Nightwish of course. But Tuomas better hold on tight to her.

[425]

And even Marko, the secondary creative force in the band, was quickly replaced.

Was he? they replaced the bassist, sure. But they lost, aside a creative force, a male lead singer and they didn't replace him. They just made do without the songs that require a strong male lead vocal, or gave those parts to Floor and Troy. I don't consider Marko being fully and completely replaced.

By "replaced," I didn't mean any sort of normative judgment about whether he was adequately replaced. I mean that they quickly hired someone else to play bass, figured out how to deal with the vocal parts, and kept going. There wasn't a pause or hiatus after Marko left, and it doesn't seem from the outside like one was seriously considered.

Even though Floor has become the face of the band in the last decade and has brought them broader attention, does anyone doubt that if she didn't fit what Tuomas wanted, there would quickly be a new singer?

Of course if it becomes a do or die situation it's Floor that goes and not Tuomas, but by now getting rid of Floor is a suicide. She's universally accepted and loved in the fanbase, she can do justice to the entire catalogue and by now, with band members going one by one, she's the only one that makes it feel like something resembling a band anymore and not just "Tuomas and whoever wants to work with her".

Nightwish had 3 singers already, they won't survive losing Floor. Of course Tuomas is Nightwish, but also Steve Harris is Iron Maiden and he needs Bruce Dickinson. Tuomas needs Floor, just as Floor needs Nightwish of course. But Tuomas better hold on tight to her.

I would compare it more to a DT/MP situation. MP was really valuable to DT, he was almost the face of the band to a lot of fans, but when he said he wanted them all to take five years off, there was no question for the rest of them. I'm saying that if Floor came to Tuomas with something like what MP said, and Tuomas really wanted to keep going, I don't think there would be a question what would happen.

I don't think the Iron Maiden comparison works because Bruce was the singer on all their most famous material, on almost all the albums that all but the most die-hard fans care about. And as the singer on all that material, he became almost synonymous with it.  The Bruce equivalent in Nightwish, if one existed, would be Tarja—but Nightwish maintained their success without Tarja far better than Maiden did without Bruce. [Edit to add: And because they've now successfully performed so much of their back catalogue with multiple singers, it's not synonymous with any one of them. When I think of Nemo, I can hear it both with Tarja and Floor, and don't feel that it's synonymous with either of them. Even GLS, which one could argue Floor claimed for her own, is still really good and memorable in Tarja's versions.]

And I think Nightwish would survive losing Floor. Especially if they chose a good replacement, which they'd have every opportunity to do as the biggest band in the subgenre. Yes, they'd lose some of their audience. But as long as the songs were high-quality, which is almost entirely up to Tuomas, they'd keep going.

[cramx3]

And even Marko, the secondary creative force in the band, was quickly replaced.

Was he? they replaced the bassist, sure. But they lost, aside a creative force, a male lead singer and they didn't replace him. They just made do without the songs that require a strong male lead vocal, or gave those parts to Floor and Troy. I don't consider Marko being fully and completely replaced.

By "replaced," I didn't mean any sort of normative judgment about whether he was adequately replaced. I mean that they quickly hired someone else to play bass, figured out how to deal with the vocal parts, and kept going. There wasn't a pause or hiatus after Marko left, and it doesn't seem from the outside like one was seriously considered.

Agreed.  By all intents and purposes, he's been replaced already. Also, remember when he was going to do the online shows and then still backed out?  NW didn't blink.  They had the new guy ready regardless including doing Planet Hell right away.

And I think Nightwish would survive losing Floor. Especially if they chose a good replacement, which they'd have every opportunity to do as the biggest band in the subgenre. Yes, they'd lose some of their audience. But as long as the songs were high-quality, which is almost entirely up to Tuomas, they'd keep going.

I think NW could survive losing Floor, but they'd have to tour and earn it.  I don't think they could both lose Floor AND take the hiatus.  I mean, they could, but I think they'd lose a lot of the fan base with the time and difference. I honestly wouldn't be shocked if something like that ends up happening.  NW are one of my favorite bands and it's very sad to see this hiatus, because it just seems there's a lot of uncertainty.

[425]

And I think Nightwish would survive losing Floor. Especially if they chose a good replacement, which they'd have every opportunity to do as the biggest band in the subgenre. Yes, they'd lose some of their audience. But as long as the songs were high-quality, which is almost entirely up to Tuomas, they'd keep going.

I think NW could survive losing Floor, but they'd have to tour and earn it.  I don't think they could both lose Floor AND take the hiatus.  I mean, they could, but I think they'd lose a lot of the fan base with the time and difference. I honestly wouldn't be shocked if something like that ends up happening.  NW are one of my favorite bands and it's very sad to see this hiatus, because it just seems there's a lot of uncertainty.

Yes, this is close to how I would put it. I think if Floor left they'd be under pressure to come out fairly quickly with a strong new album and a tour with a singer who could own the material.

On the other hand, as I think about this, I can't avoid thinking about the Tarja->Anette case. I don't want to diss Anette, whom I like and whose performances on DPP and Imaginaerum are meaningful to me. But it was a strange replacement and a downgrade in terms of ability to sing the back catalog... and yet they didn't lose a step in terms of commercial success. I think I attribute that mainly to the strength of the songwriting on Dark Passion Play and Imaginaerum. But it's an interesting case.

[fadetoblackdude7]

Tuomas has flatout said if Floor ever leaves, the band is done, no exceptions.

[425]

He said that in the context of saying, essentially, "yeah I said that in the past about Marko but I'm taking it back now." So I'm not exactly taking that as a rock solid statement.

[MirrorMask]

Every band member of a long running and established band says that the next lineup change is the death of the band, only to find out that when it really happens, they can't let go of their life. At a certain point is a way of life, a habit, what you actually are able to do, and it's not easy to let go of that. I'm sure if you'd ask John Petrucci if Dream Theater is done without Myung he'd probably say yes, but I'd "dare" him to face the absolute and certain fact that Myung (or Rudess) wants to leave right now, today, and have him face the harsh reality of Dream Theater being dead. I'm sure he would not be ready to lay it all to rest.

RE: Marko being "replaced", well, I stand by my statement, but when you put it in terms of "they found a bassist, figured out what to do with the vocal parts and moved on" yeah, I can only agree with you.

About Nightwish being done without Floor... of course they would technically survive, people would still show up at concerts, but unless they find the best replacement ever and put out the strongest album ever, I could see them downsize in concerts attendance and importance on the bill of festivals. They could still have a carrer, but it would be the last phase of their carrer and they would go out relatively quietly and not headlining sold out shows and being the biggest name on festivals. Well, let's hope anyway to never find out if I'm right or wrong.

[gazinwales]

The only way they could survive losing Floor (are there rumours of her departure?) is Tarja's return.
I know this impossible, but we are talking about the music industry here, where anything goes...

[LithoJazzoSphere]

They don't have any classic albums with Floor, so I think they could.  There's still a sizeable percentage of their fanbase that is still not over Tarja, and a smaller portion not over Anette.  They could hypothetically poach a Simone Simmons or Adrienne Cowan or Elize Ryd or Melissa Bonny or a less-known vocalist and the fanbase would remain divided, but could certainly warm to them. 

[425]

The only way they could survive losing Floor (are there rumours of her departure?) is Tarja's return.
I know this impossible, but we are talking about the music industry here, where anything goes...

I don't think there are any specific rumors, but there's some speculation that there may be internal disagreement over the touring hiatus (and/or that internal conflicts are part of the reason for the hiatus). People have interpreted some of Floor's interview comments and social media posts as suggesting that she'd rather not take a break. And she's the person in the band (a) whose departure would matter the most and (b) who would have the best chance of sustaining a career in music without Nightwish (assuming, as I think I have grounds to do, that there could be no such thing as Tuomas "leaving" Nightwish).

[ErHaO]

If they call it quits eventually, I hope for one last tour in the style of Helloween United. Floor, Marko, Tarja, and Anette. I know it is extremely unlikely, but it would be amazing.

I don't think Floor is leaving though.

And I do think the Iron Maiden comparison works to an extent. Nightwish with Floor has been far more popular than they were back in the day. Yes, internet discourse is one thing. But it is a fact that they were filling arenas and headlining massive festivals during the recent Floor era. Maybe the US is different, but Nightwish is really big here and in surrounding countries, and non-metal people know the band.

It is a bit sad that covid came and now the hiatus, as I feel they were still growing a new fanbase.

Furthermore, by online metrics some post Tarja songs are about as popular. Hell, on youtube two Anette songs and one Floor song have the most views. I don't think some of their later material is that far off in popularity to be honest.

[LithoJazzoSphere]

If they call it quits eventually, I hope for one last tour in the style of Helloween United. Floor, Marko, Tarja, and Anette. I know it is extremely unlikely, but it would be amazing.

An even closer comparison would be The Gathering's TG25 show with their former vocalists, but yeah, it's unlikely with Nightwish given the acrimony over Tarja and Anette's exits. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpEm0YZWI8k

Maybe the US is different, but Nightwish is really big here and in surrounding countries, and non-metal people know the band.

Yeah, they're still relatively obscure in the US.  They only hit half a dozen major cities last time they were here. 

[fadetoblackdude7]

The last couple times I saw them in Chicago, they upgraded the size of the rooms they’re playing. There went from playing small clubs to relatively large halls. Still not arena size though.

[The Curious Orange]

Only two people who were in the band in 2012 are still in it today: Tuomas and Emppu. And it's clear that anyone except those two would be instantly replaced if they decided to leave or even just wanted to take a break that Tuomas didn't want to take... (The one x-factor here is Emppu; he's the only one I'm not certain that Tuomas would be happy to replace.)

Emppu has been sidelined in the band over recent albums as Troy's role has increased. Troy is certainly doing as much of the guitar work as Emppu, if not more.

[cramx3]

The last couple times I saw them in Chicago, they upgraded the size of the rooms they’re playing. There went from playing small clubs to relatively large halls. Still not arena size though.

Yeah.  NW aren't an arena band in the states, but they aren't an unknown and have been growing in popularity.  The last tour just was very small, but the show in NYC was sold out at a 3K capacity venue.  The first time I saw them they didn't sell out the 2k capacity venue and they toured with Sabaton and Delain opening.  That last NYC show just had Beast in Black opening.  So they are drawing more people and moreso because of themselves than a huge tour package.

[The Curious Orange]

It could just be that the increasing costs of touring (renting a tour bus has leapt up in price, rigging and equipment hire costs have gone up, flights and hotels have gone up) mean that it's just not worth it. If the band and their promoters feel that the fanbase won't absorb higher ticket prices, then the numbers perhaps just don't add up.

[WardySI]

Saw them Down Under supporting Once, wasn't a big venue by any means but the performance and crowd were insane and am grateful to have seen them with that original line-up.

I think in hindsight the firing of Tarja cost them more than thought.  Maybe not in album sales but and after some time getting Floor in was perfect, but do feel they never truly delivered on the momentum off Once.  Understandable but a little disappointing as well if that makes sense!?

[LithoJazzoSphere]

To me their sound was becoming too one-dimensional by then.  Tarja is one of the best at what she does, but there's only so much you can do with it. 

[425]

Saw them Down Under supporting Once, wasn't a big venue by any means but the performance and crowd were insane and am grateful to have seen them with that original line-up.

I think in hindsight the firing of Tarja cost them more than thought.  Maybe not in album sales but and after some time getting Floor in was perfect, but do feel they never truly delivered on the momentum off Once.  Understandable but a little disappointing as well if that makes sense!?

It probably did cost them something in terms of popularity, but I think the two Anette albums are two of their best, and there's material on there that it's hard to picture Tarja singing. From the perspective of my enjoyment of each album, Once -> Dark Passion Play -> Imaginaerum is a continuous ascent.

[Pappy]

Saw them Down Under supporting Once, wasn't a big venue by any means but the performance and crowd were insane and am grateful to have seen them with that original line-up.

I think in hindsight the firing of Tarja cost them more than thought.  Maybe not in album sales but and after some time getting Floor in was perfect, but do feel they never truly delivered on the momentum off Once.  Understandable but a little disappointing as well if that makes sense!?

It probably did cost them something in terms of popularity, but I think the two Anette albums are two of their best, and there's material on there that it's hard to picture Tarja singing. From the perspective of my enjoyment of each album, Once -> Dark Passion Play -> Imaginaerum is a continuous ascent.

Wasn't DPP their highest selling?

[Ben_Jamin]

The albums were not the problem that some fans had with Anette...It was her live performances of the older Tarja type of songs. Those songs are not in her range at all, yet Tuomas chose to include them in the setlist.

Then you had the entire situation during the Imaginarium tour, which led to her demanding the band to not include her or any mention of her in the documentary on Showtime, Storytime.

[Pappy]

The albums were not the problem that some fans had with Anette...It was her live performances of the older Tarja type of songs. Those songs are not in her range at all, yet Tuomas chose to include them in the setlist.

Then you had the entire situation during the Imaginarium tour, which led to her demanding the band to not include her or any mention of her in the documentary on Showtime, Storytime.

I got to go to her last show before the infamous one in Utah when she was asked. Would have never known there were issues.

[kaos2900]

I saw them twice with Annette and they were awesome both times. Seen them once with Floor and Troy and they took the live show to another level, even though I miss Jukka.

Never got to see them with Tarja due her, at the time, reluctance to tour the US. One of the reasons they fired her if I remember correctly.

[MirrorMask]

Saw them Down Under supporting Once, wasn't a big venue by any means but the performance and crowd were insane and am grateful to have seen them with that original line-up.

I think in hindsight the firing of Tarja cost them more than thought.  Maybe not in album sales but and after some time getting Floor in was perfect, but do feel they never truly delivered on the momentum off Once.  Understandable but a little disappointing as well if that makes sense!?

Well, I can only judge from what their shows are like in Italy - Saw them with Tarja and they filled a rather big venue (saw there Dream Theater in 2002 and Judas Priest with Rob Halford back, to give a sense of the popularity); then with Annette they played a smaller venue, and with Floor they filled a bigger arena, the same Iron Maiden play when they play indoor concerts in Milan. Granted, Iron Maiden sell the place out in two days, but still Nightwish play their same arena and it's not half empty.

At festival they're usually headliners or anyway a big attraction in the bill, so I'd say that whatever they have lost without Tarja, they gained back with Floor. When you play (at least in a country) the same arena Iron Maiden plays and you headline festivals, I'd say you're as big as it can realistically be.

Of course I'm using Europe as a general reference. I've read that in the USA they're not quite there yet.

[The Curious Orange]

I do wish Floor would stop wearing these Xena Warrior Princess costumes on stage and wear something a little more akin to her normal everyday style.

[cramx3]

edit: wrong thread

[Grappler]

I do wish Floor would stop wearing these Xena Warrior Princess costumes on stage and wear something a little more akin to her normal everyday style.

I believe you are the only person in the world with this line of thought.   

[Pappy]

I never got to see them with Tarja but once with Annette, which was wonderful. We all know even with impending band doom they can pull off a great show. Saw them with Floor four times. 3 Times was amazing. One time Marco had bass issues, and stormed off halfway through the third song before coming back out. Rest of the gig felt very much like a car ride after dad yelled at everyone.

[Adami]

Saw them once with Tarja at a small club in NYC. Their first headlining American show I believe. Great show.

Saw them 2-3 times with Annette. Was good once but the other times they looked tired and largely over it. Saw Floors 3rd maybe show with them and they were on fire. This was before they debuted GSL with floor cause I remember hearing them practice it a bit. Then saw them on the decades tour and they were great again.