Nightwish...

[MirrorMask]

Imaginareum is still my favorite Nightwish album. Floor stands way, way over Annette in any conceivable way, but that album is pure gold from start to finish and I love it.

[cramx3]

I disagree, but that's just opinions on music.  I think EFMB is their best album and while I love these two Dark Element albums, they aren't as good as EFMB.  This new album though probably tops a few Nightwish albums though.

[bosk1]

Endless Forms is easily Nightwish's worst album, so although I haven't heard anything from Dark Element, that opinion does not sound controversial to me.

[Max Kuehnau]

Endless Forms is easily Nightwish's worst album, so although I haven't heard anything from Dark Element, that opinion does not sound controversial to me.

well, I like it. (Floor is the main reason why to be honest, her and Sharon den Adel are my two favourite female singers in metal)

[bosk1]

I love Floor as a vocalist.  I just can't stand the album.

[Ben_Jamin]

I love Floor as a vocalist.  I just can't stand the album.

Me either, it sounds dull. I do enjoy songs on it though and vastly prefer the live versions.

[Architeuthis]

I love Floor as a vocalist.  I just can't stand the album.

I really like the music on this album, a bit too preachy about darwinism as we discussed previously. Richard Dawkins is no genious, lol!
 Floor sounds amazing though. Can't wait to hear the new album. 

[The Walrus]

Endless Forms is easily Nightwish's worst album, so although I haven't heard anything from Dark Element, that opinion does not sound controversial to me.

For all my criticisms of EFMB there's no way I'd call it their worst album, personally. Angels Fall First and Wishmaster are just dreadful, as is the back half of Once imo (save Ghost Love Score).

[fadetoblackdude7]

I agree that EFMB is a bit flat, the mix is terrible and Floor was wayyy under utilized. But I have grown to appreciate it more since its release. Hopefully the new album improves on all of those things!

[Evermind]

I don't mind the lyrics, but the album is absolutely bland. Elan (I know I'm in the minority here), Weak Fantasy and Edema Ruh are the only tracks I still spin occasionally.

[The Walrus]

I don't mind the lyrics, but the album is absolutely bland. Elan (I know I'm in the minority here), Weak Fantasy and Edema Ruh are the only tracks I still spin occasionally.

Weak Fantasy, Yours Is An Empty Hope, and Greatest Show On Earth for me.

[Architeuthis]

I don't mind the lyrics, but the album is absolutely bland. Elan (I know I'm in the minority here), Weak Fantasy and Edema Ruh are the only tracks I still spin occasionally.

Edema Ruh is kind of a hidden gem on this album that gets overshadowed for some reason. Great track!

[cramx3]

I don't mind the lyrics, but the album is absolutely bland. Elan (I know I'm in the minority here), Weak Fantasy and Edema Ruh are the only tracks I still spin occasionally.

Edema Ruh is kind of a hidden gem on this album that gets overshadowed for some reason. Great track!

Beautiful song

[MoraWintersoul]

me: I respect everyone's opinion, personal taste is such a funny thing

Angels Fall First and Wishmaster are just dreadful

me: well that's just plain wrong.

Seriously, those first several albums up to Once (when they had broken out into the mainstream) are why we have this situation we have now, of Nightwish being one of the largest bands in metal. They were unique, fun, crazy, cool, ambitious and talented, and every bit of that is on the albums. Maybe the later albums are more polished, professional, easier to digest and have fewer moments that miss the mark, but that's because they're way less adventurous and bold.

Maybe you just had to be there  but I think a lot of you were there before me? I arrived during the long wait between Tarja's departure and Anette's first recordings, and the first half of Nightwish's career blew my mind to the point where everything that came after was kinda meh in the studio. Was only following them to see what they would play live and how it would look like. I like EFMB more than most people, but the real goods are in the touring cycles they had around it and the live albums.

[cramx3]

Wishmaster is so damn awesome.  Angels is easily their worst album.  It's not bad, its just feels like a band trying to figure out a sound and how to write songs.  There's glimpses of awesomeness, but there's nothing that truly stands out on it for me.  Which is fine, everyone starts somewhere and they only got better after that so I totally respect it as their beginning.

Also, Bosk, you should check out The Dark Element.  I can't recommend them enough to anyone who enjoyed Annette's time in NW.

[The Walrus]

me: I respect everyone's opinion, personal taste is such a funny thing

Angels Fall First and Wishmaster are just dreadful

me: well that's just plain wrong.

Seriously, those first several albums up to Once (when they had broken out into the mainstream) are why we have this situation we have now, of Nightwish being one of the largest bands in metal. They were unique, fun, crazy, cool, ambitious and talented, and every bit of that is on the albums. Maybe the later albums are more polished, professional, easier to digest and have fewer moments that miss the mark, but that's because they're way less adventurous and bold.

Maybe you just had to be there  but I think a lot of you were there before me? I arrived during the long wait between Tarja's departure and Anette's first recordings, and the first half of Nightwish's career blew my mind to the point where everything that came after was kinda meh in the studio. Was only following them to see what they would play live and how it would look like. I like EFMB more than most people, but the real goods are in the touring cycles they had around it and the live albums.

  I see what you're saying, though. I never 'got' Nightwish, until Dark Passion Play. That's still far and away my favorite album they've ever done. Other than that and Oceanborn, they've been super hit-and-miss for me, and they've never quite hit the highs of songs like The Poet and the Pendulum (despite its pompous, narcissistic qualities) or Meadows of Heaven. Also I disagree about your comments about the new stuff being less adventurous and bold. Angels Fall First is a tremendously boring album to me in no small part because it isn't all that adventurous or bold. At least the orchestrations on the new stuff are top notch, even if they make the material feel a tad bloated. But that's just me.

[MirrorMask]

me: I respect everyone's opinion, personal taste is such a funny thing

Angels Fall First and Wishmaster are just dreadful

me: well that's just plain wrong.

Seriously, those first several albums up to Once (when they had broken out into the mainstream) are why we have this situation we have now, of Nightwish being one of the largest bands in metal. They were unique, fun, crazy, cool, ambitious and talented, and every bit of that is on the albums. Maybe the later albums are more polished, professional, easier to digest and have fewer moments that miss the mark, but that's because they're way less adventurous and bold.

Maybe you just had to be there  but I think a lot of you were there before me? I arrived during the long wait between Tarja's departure and Anette's first recordings, and the first half of Nightwish's career blew my mind to the point where everything that came after was kinda meh in the studio. Was only following them to see what they would play live and how it would look like. I like EFMB more than most people, but the real goods are in the touring cycles they had around it and the live albums.

Yeah, I agree. They'll never be my favorite band but I constantly followed Nightwish since discovered them, and I guess that Once is the turning point, is the last album of the first period of the band (and not only because of Tarja) and the beginning of Nightwish as one of the biggest acts of the genre, and certainly the giant of the symphonic metal sub-genre.

The early albums were all about the surprise, the then-new idea of operatic female vocals in metal, they were young and hungry kids exploring music and starting to understand stuff. Angels Falls First is of course raw, I won't ocmment on Oceanborn 'cause I never liked it but I know that's not the general opinion, and Wishmaster is absoutely great, it's maybe cheesy at times but who cares, it's a tribute to fantasy and all the cool stuff that we all liked as kids. Century Child was already a bit different, and once they made it big with, well, Once, they were adults and at the top of the sub-genre and the atmosphere and the feel changed.

I still stand behind what I posted earlier - Imaginaerum IS my favorite Nightwish album. But those early records, especially Wishmaster, are the testimony of a band of young hungry kids that just wanted to have fun with music writing about what they loved back than, and that will forever remain.

[Zook]

I love Floor as a vocalist.  I just can't stand the album.

I really like the music on this album, a bit too preachy about darwinism as we discussed previously. Richard Dawkins is no genious, lol!
 Floor sounds amazing though. Can't wait to hear the new album. 

I'm sure he has never claimed to be a genius, but he is a scientist, specifically evolutionary biology, so he certainly knows what he's talking about.

And I have a question. Without derailing the thread, and going too far over into P/R. For those who don't like the album, and specifically the lyrics, does it have anything to do with it conflicting with your religious beliefs? Maybe you just find sciencey topics boring in music... I like The Great Debate...

I'm certainly not religious, but I love singing along to Theocracy's Bethlehem. That whole album is great, even as... Let's just say lyrics are key to my enjoyment of music, and they don't bother me on Mirror of Souls, although certain passages make me roll my eyes.

[cramx3]

Usually anti religious lyrics will turn me off, but Nightwish's stuff hasn't for whatever reason.  Maybe because of the wording or maybe because I enjoy the music so much I can overlook it. 

[MoraWintersoul]

Angels Fall First is a tremendously boring album to me in no small part because it isn't all that adventurous or bold.

Not adventurous and bold when you put it into the context of the music library you have today? I can see that. But in 1997, everything about it was like nothing anyone has done before, from the folky stuff to the solo keyboard over soprano vocs. That was straight fire. Even though nowadays I only keep about half of the tracks in my rotation, in 2007 when I first took it for a spin, AFF seemed avantgarde. The later albums only perfected it, and made it even better.

Yeah, I agree. They'll never be my favorite band but I constantly followed Nightwish since discovered them, and I guess that Once is the turning point, is the last album of the first period of the band (and not only because of Tarja) and the beginning of Nightwish as one of the biggest acts of the genre, and certainly the giant of the symphonic metal sub-genre.

Samesies. We all know that "Nightwish is my favorite band"-type, I was never that type  but they always commanded my attention. They're one of the main reasons why I remember the mid-2000's fondly as a great time to be a fledgling metal fan, everything just came together for them. I would always find a reason to wrestle for the remote with my brother during times local TV channels were likely to run their music videos, the aesthetics seem so cheesy nowadays but it seemed so cool back then.

[The Walrus]

Yeah, I mean, I get the context of AFF's release, I just don't think it's a good album from any point of view, pioneering as it may be. It's just a dreadfully dull record even compared with what they released right after it. Just my opinion; it's the only Nightwish album I've gone out of my way to not purchase. I mean just less than a week prior to Angels Fall First being released, Rhapsody released their debut album - October 27th vs. November 1st, 1997 - and even though Nightwish is certainly the more commercially successful band, I would argue that Legendary Tales did more for the power metal genre than Angels Fall First did and is a far more exciting record. Both bands have incredibly strong legacies, so it's whatever, but that's just my take.

As for EFMB's lyrics: religious lyrics don't necessarily bother me but I agree with Zook in that while Theocracy's don't really bug me that much, there are definitely moments that make me, as he said, roll my eyes. But in EFMB's case, I dislike it more because it seems like Nightwish ripping themselves off in places and not using Floor to her full potential; there is a formula or template that seems to be more obvious than ever on that record, for whatever reasons that might be... I'm looking forward to the next record being, as we've been saying, adventurous and bold. However I could do without that narrated bit in The Greatest Show On Earth. Not because of the subject matter, just because I feel like it drags the song dangerously close to Song of Myself territory, which imo is a song ruined by 6 minutes of unnecessary padding

[MirrorMask]

I should go through the lyrics again but I don't remember any religious lyrics on the album except for Weak Fantasy (and not so terribly in-your-face if I remember correctly). One song out of 11 can be easily overlooked.

[Zook]

I really like Dawkins narration. Coupled with the music, it's very beautiful. I'm partial to the subject matter though. Plus he has a soothing British voice. Song of Myself's narration is god awful, and I chopped that shit off.

[cramx3]

I should go through the lyrics again but I don't remember any religious lyrics on the album except for Weak Fantasy (and not so terribly in-your-face if I remember correctly). One song out of 11 can be easily overlooked.

I think this is the most offensive one, but theres a lot of evolution overtones that kind of show the anti-religious without being so direct.

[Zook]

I read Weak Fantasy's lyrics. It's religion in a nutshell. What's offensive about that?

[cramx3]

I read Weak Fantasy's lyrics. It's religion in a nutshell. What's offensive about that?

Well if you are religious, I'm not sure you'd appreciate someone calling it witchcraft.  I don't personally find it offensive, but I can see someone being turned off by the lyrics. Or telling you to "wake up child" which is more direct to you, the listener.

[fadetoblackdude7]

I really like Dawkins narration. Coupled with the music, it's very beautiful. I'm partial to the subject matter though. Plus he has a soothing British voice. Song of Myself's narration is god awful, and I chopped that shit off.

Completely agree with you! I love closing my eyes and getting lost in TGSOE, it’s a masterpiece of a song, narration and all. Song of Myself however, just drags and drags for far too long. I love Imaginaerum, but the ending is almost destroyed by that track.

[Evermind]

I like both Song of Myself and Greatest Show on Earth narrations.

[Zook]

I like both Song of Myself and Greatest Show on Earth narrations.

You monster!

[MirrorMask]

I should go through the lyrics again but I don't remember any religious lyrics on the album except for Weak Fantasy (and not so terribly in-your-face if I remember correctly). One song out of 11 can be easily overlooked.

I think this is the most offensive one, but theres a lot of evolution overtones that kind of show the anti-religious without being so direct.

*shrug* agree to disagree I guess. Evolution it's just a scientific issue. Just like climate change. Could a song about climate change, depending on how it's written, be seen as a political attack to those who approach the issue in a different way? I guess so, and I could understand the dislike. But I don't see nothing religious or anti religious in celebrating the beauty of life forms (title track) or saying "Hey, we're gonna die but come on, that means we are alive in the first place, look at how beautiful our planet is" (Greatest Show on Earth).

[ErHaO]

Most songs on Endless Forms Most Beautiful are not anti-religious, at least not in my view or to my recollection, they are about an evolutionary/scientific view on life. And given how extremely low the chances are for life to exist, even on similar planets as ours, I like that angle for realising how special life is.

[soupytwist]

And I have a question. Without derailing the thread, and going too far over into P/R. For those who don't like the album, and specifically the lyrics, does it have anything to do with it conflicting with your religious beliefs? Maybe you just find sciencey topics boring in music... I like The Great Debate...

I'm from England and I don't care about religion at all.  But to me Dawkins militant atheist anti-religious stance is in itself borderline religious, certainly cultish.   Seeing hundreds of people line up at Hyde Park to listen to him read extracts of 'The God Delusion' while waving said tome above their heads was strange......It's sad he's made most of his money and fame from that Novel rather than any of his far more interesting theories on Evolution.

[Zook]

And I have a question. Without derailing the thread, and going too far over into P/R. For those who don't like the album, and specifically the lyrics, does it have anything to do with it conflicting with your religious beliefs? Maybe you just find sciencey topics boring in music... I like The Great Debate...

I'm from England and I don't care about religion at all.  But to me Dawkins militant atheist anti-religious stance is in itself borderline religious, certainly cultish.   Seeing hundreds of people line up at Hyde Park to listen to him read extracts of 'The God Delusion' while waving said tome above their heads was strange......It's sad he's made most of his money and fame from that Novel rather than any of his far more interesting theories on Evolution.

Yeah that is kinda weird, and I wasn't aware of that particular gathering, but a lot of non religious people credit that book in helping them leave the faith. I have the audio books of both it and TGSOE (recently got the book versions of both) and I'd like to "read" (best time is at work while stocking) more of his scientific books.

There are other non scientist atheist activists that are more respectful in their approach, but no belief should be respected nor protected from criticism. Should I respect someone's belief in fairies or leprecauns? How about scientologists?

But anyway. Nightwish is cool and stuff.

[Adami]

I enjoy EFMB but agree there are a number of duds on there, and a lot of it is pretty bland.

The lyrics....aren't great. I'm a strong agnostic and nihilist, so my issue with them isn't the offensive whatever, it's that they're just boring and dull.

Science and evolution are beautiful, but not for song lyrics.

I'm also a socialist, and I wouldn't want an album about the wonders of socialism, you know?

[MirrorMask]

Maybe the next album lyrics will have something to justify Floor's steampunk clothes