Author Topic: MTV's Jersey Shore  (Read 30214 times)

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Offline ReaPsTA

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MTV's Jersey Shore
« on: December 04, 2009, 01:24:48 PM »
I am not a reality TV watcher. The whole genre turns me off for a number of reasons. I'm pretty sure the MTV show about teen mothers is truly evil.

However, when listening to Bill Simmons podcast, he hyped this as 'potentially the greatest reality TV show of all time.' Since I'm a pretty big Bill Simmons fan, I was intrigued and check it out on MTV's site. To my amazement, someone at MTV had the genius idea of taking a bunch of guido guys and girls and putting them in one Jersey beach house. I knew I had to check it out.

And boy did it not disappoint. A big part of why I refuse to watch most reality TV is how fake it is. The current version of the Real World takes place in Washington DC, and the cast they put together is just absurd. "Let's put a Republican and an insecure gay man together and see what Whacky hijinks ensue!!!" No, just no. In this case, while the cast doesn't know each other, all these guys come from similar social circles, therefore the ensuing social experiment actually has a layer of truth to it. It really is a look inside guido culture and the absurdity it breeds.

I only have two criticisms of this show. While the girls have utterly fascinating levels of insecurity, they're very annoying. I can only watch whores call other girls whores so many times. That, and they have a real problem with minding their own business. I want to watch the drama play out, and they mess up the flow.

The other problem is it's almost too good. I'm very aware of contrivance when watching reality TV. I know the power of editing to manipulate situations to slightly alter them. In the two hour premiere of the show, there was a romantic plot set up that followed dramatic structure more than a little too closely. I'm interested in how the editors managed to massage the footage in order to make their narrative pop out. But otherwise, I can't detect editor manipulation beyond standard stuff such as truncating dialog and situations. If some major scandal about the events being manipulated came out, I'd inevitably feel like an idiot for missing it.

At the moment though, I'm on board. I haven't watched any reality shows in a long time, but this is just too glorious an event to miss out on.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2009, 03:42:31 PM by ReaPsTA »
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Offline Fuzzboy

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Re: MTV's Jersey Shore
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2009, 02:18:50 PM »
women cops are a joke

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Offline splent

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Re: MTV's Jersey Shore
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2009, 03:41:49 PM »
I fucking refuse to watch this show.  I don't care how real it is, I really don't need to see a bunch of assholes living together.  All they care about is fist pumping?  That looks totally retarded.  I spend 25 minutes spiking my hair?  Closeted homosexual, maybe?  By the way YOUR HAIR LOOKS TOTALLY STUPID...

All the guys on that show are the type of people I refused to become when I was in high school, and all the girls on there are the type of girls I have absolutely no interest in at all.  People who are so self concious on their appearance and that'st he most important thing.... it's not... those people are all shallow... I hate how MTV glorifies shallowness on these types of shows... Spencer Pratt is a total dick and he kind of forced his way to becoming a "celebrity" and I can totally see taht happening with tis show and it pisses me off...

I pray to GOD that this show gets panned and it ends soon.  MTV was starting to get it's act together, by having shows like 16 and pregnant, shows that make a statement.  And they shouldn't be called MTV anymore... they don't even show music videos...

</rant>
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Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: MTV's Jersey Shore
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2009, 03:47:53 PM »
I fucking refuse to watch this show.  I don't care how real it is, I really don't need to see a bunch of assholes living together.  All they care about is fist pumping?  That looks totally retarded.  I spend 25 minutes spiking my hair?  Closeted homosexual, maybe?  By the way YOUR HAIR LOOKS TOTALLY STUPID...

Yes, it's retarded looking, but kinda funny. And the guy who spends 25 minutes spiking his hair is probably the coolest member of the cast, even if he's still not that likable.

Quote
All the guys on that show are the type of people I refused to become when I was in high school, and all the girls on there are the type of girls I have absolutely no interest in at all.  People who are so self concious on their appearance and that'st he most important thing.... it's not... those people are all shallow... I hate how MTV glorifies shallowness on these types of shows... Spencer Pratt is a total dick and he kind of forced his way to becoming a "celebrity" and I can totally see taht happening with tis show and it pisses me off...

I can't really disagree with any of this, but there's no point in fighting that which can't be fought, so I'm going to enjoy the trashy TV.

Quote
I pray to GOD that this show gets panned and it ends soon.  MTV was starting to get it's act together, by having shows like 16 and pregnant, shows that make a statement.  And they shouldn't be called MTV anymore... they don't even show music videos...

</rant>

16 and Pregnant is one of the most despicable things ever put on television. Under no circumstances should teen pregnancy be glorified, and that's exactly what MTV's doing. Jersey Shore isn't the greatest piece of television ever, but the premise is to take a social group and feature them in their element. It sucks that their trashiness is promoted, but whatever. Teen pregnancy is one of the worst things that can happen in society, it doesn't need a reality show making it mainstream.
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Offline axeman90210

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Re: MTV's Jersey Shore
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2009, 04:26:31 PM »
I think this is the one reality show where I'll give in and wallow in the filth. I originally tuned in to see just how much worse of a name my home state was going to get, but... I don't think I can look away.
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Offline Neon

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Re: MTV's Jersey Shore
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2009, 10:39:22 PM »
My family owns two tanning salons in New Jersey and I can absolutely assure you that the behavior you see on this show is absolutely true.  It is not exaggerated at all.

I, too, happened upon this show last night and could not look away from this utter train wreck.  All I can do is laugh at them for their ridiculous spray tans...and laugh that a bunch of them probably got them at my salon, as one of our locations is not too far from the Jersey shore.  :lol :rollin :lol
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Offline splent

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Re: MTV's Jersey Shore
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2009, 07:12:20 AM »
16 and Pregnant is one of the most despicable things ever put on television. Under no circumstances should teen pregnancy be glorified, and that's exactly what MTV's doing. Jersey Shore isn't the greatest piece of television ever, but the premise is to take a social group and feature them in their element. It sucks that their trashiness is promoted, but whatever. Teen pregnancy is one of the worst things that can happen in society, it doesn't need a reality show making it mainstream.

I don't view it as glorifying teen pregnancy, I view it as a way to show people how difficult it is for people who are teens to have to drop everything and grow up in nine months.  I view it as hopefully a way to cut down on teen pregnancy.  People see how hard it is and maybe be like "I don't want to risk that happening to me".
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Offline sylvan

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Re: MTV's Jersey Shore
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2009, 07:56:14 AM »
16 and Pregnant is one of the most despicable things ever put on television. Under no circumstances should teen pregnancy be glorified, and that's exactly what MTV's doing. Jersey Shore isn't the greatest piece of television ever, but the premise is to take a social group and feature them in their element. It sucks that their trashiness is promoted, but whatever. Teen pregnancy is one of the worst things that can happen in society, it doesn't need a reality show making it mainstream.

I don't view it as glorifying teen pregnancy, I view it as a way to show people how difficult it is for people who are teens to have to drop everything and grow up in nine months.  I view it as hopefully a way to cut down on teen pregnancy.  People see how hard it is and maybe be like "I don't want to risk that happening to me".

Here's the thing... you say "people" will see how hard it is, but these "people" you speak of are teens, and teens don't think like rational adults.  Seeing the ridiculousness that is being a teenager, and taking into consideration the people that will become teenage parents, how can anyone give them the benefit of the doubt when it comes to decision making.  And why does anyone care to see "how difficult it is for people who are teens to have to drop everything and grow up in nine months?"  It's a choice they made, one which does not deserve sympathy, nor recognition.

As far as Jersey Shore goes, I will give it a shot.  Guidos crack me up.  Does anyone remember True Life: I'm going to the Jersey Shore, or something along those lines.  That stupid bald d-bag who wokrs construcion so he can afford the lease on his Caddy.  "This is my cheese ball stand."  Until now I had considered him the biggest d-bag on the planet, but I'm afraid we will find a new king and queen from this show.

Offline splent

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Re: MTV's Jersey Shore
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2009, 10:03:15 PM »
I just think it's stupid, this is like The Hills east coast style.  It's all we need.

Anyways.  True Life.  That's another good show.  I'd rather have people see what real life is like, for TRUE reality TV, instead of stupid "let's just film people be complete douches all the time and see how popular it gets, so that everyone can be like that all the time."
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: MTV's Jersey Shore
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2009, 10:33:19 PM »
Splent, I agree with you in theory. But in today's society, everything on TV is glorified, even if it isn't done intentionally. Being on TV = fame, being someone of importance. People today want to be on TV, whatever their reasons. And if they can't be on TV themselves, they want to emulate those they do see on TV. And if those people are 16 year old pregnant chicks, girls watching at home aren't going to see their struggles. They are going to say "OMG she is on TV! She is so cool! I want to be like her!"

And since TV is so prevalent in our society, anything being filmed isn't real. Once people know they are in front of the camera, and millions of people are watching them, any sense of 'reality' goes out the window. And the 'performance' begins.
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Offline zerogravityfat

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Re: MTV's Jersey Shore
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2009, 05:49:23 AM »
guidos crack me up, and most of my friends are bitching about how jersey is not like that... well it is.
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Offline Neon

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Re: MTV's Jersey Shore
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2009, 06:42:38 PM »
guidos crack me up, and most of my friends are bitching about how jersey is not like that... well it is.


It definitely is. 
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Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: MTV's Jersey Shore
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2009, 07:38:12 PM »
I don't know about Jersey specifically, but I've seen enough photos and articles online to know that Guido culture is very real. Jersey Shore is this amazing opportunity to actually experience it in some way.
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Offline Neon

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Re: MTV's Jersey Shore
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2009, 09:08:42 PM »
I don't know about Jersey specifically, but I've seen enough photos and articles online to know that Guido culture is very real. Jersey Shore is this amazing opportunity to actually experience it in some way.

At least you don't have to deal with these people in real life.  Consider yourself lucky.
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Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: MTV's Jersey Shore
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2009, 09:48:34 PM »
I don't know what this is or what it means, but I'm creating the Jersey Shore Power Ranking. I can't believe I just spent more than a half an hour writing this.

The Real People

#1: Ronnie
Out of all the characters, he would probably function best in the real world. He's not insecure, knows how to go with the flow, and doesn't get in other people's business. I don't know how I feel about him taking Sammy from The Situation, but she did fling himself at him, so what was he supposed to do? Right now, he's the anchor of sanity in the Jersey Shore house.

#2: Pauly D
On the outside, you'd think you'd immediately hate him. He takes 25 minutes to do his hair, talks about how he doesn't want to work, and has a penis piercing. But you know what? So far this guy's alright. When he showed up at the job, he actually went to work and did it right. The punch in the nose was a cheap shot, but I appreciate someone who looks out for his boys. He doesn't filch around in other people's business, and unlike some of the others in the house he doesn't act unpleasant toward them. I feel like I could have a real conversation with this guy for ten, maybe fifteen minutes about life and DJing.

#3: Vinnie
He's in a precarious position right now because, at the moment, he's simply innocuous enough not to make me hate him. All that could change very quickly. He talks about this identity he has as a non-ridiculous Italian, but his actions don't really match up with that. At some point, the cognitive dissonance has to kick in and he'll start doing stupid things to prove he's who he's convinced himself he is. But he's alright for now.

#4: Sammi
She only gets this high because there's something about how she carries herself which makes me believe she's actually in tune with reality. Plus, like Paulie, she actually seems like a real person. She immediately offered to help cover some of Vinnie's shift, and talked to Snookie about leaving the place. But still, anyone who says she's "The Nicest Bitch" you'll ever meet has problems. Believing you're two mutually exclusive things must result from a very skewed sense of self image. Like when she was acting tough about ditching The Situation in the interview, but in the moment she seemed somewhat torn up about it.

The Caricatures

#5: Snookie
Poor Snookie. She has no sense of self whatsoever. From the moment she arrived, she wanted everyone to like her. She threw herself at the guys in the hottub in hopes that one of them would be into her. When she talked to her parents on the phone, it was obvious they never parented her in her life. All the characters are deluded to some degree, but she doesn't even have a self to delude. It's almost sad to watch, and it looks like her situation gets worse based on the preview.

#6: Mike "The Situation"
Insecurity and arrogance never go together well, but this is something special. In terms of being utterly compelling, I don't think any other character on the show matches up. I think his defining characteristic is how he thinks he's in control of what's happening around him, which is why he was so devastated by Sammi going for Ronnie. He thought he would just be able to maneuver her into position, but in reality he needed to strike while the fire was hot, but he didn't so Sammi went where the action really was. I look forward to seeing Mike deal with more of his perceptions of reality not matching up with the facts of the situation.

The Obnoxious

#7: Jwoww
There's nothing genuinely likable about her. Any girl who wants to guitlessly cheat on her boyfriend not only has issues, but some kind of malignant personality disorder. I also have no tolerance for her "If you don't know me, then you hate me, and you wish you were me" attitude. Aside from that not even making sense, it represents an awful attitude toward life. She views herself as someone who destroys other people's lives, thinks people who don't destroy other people's lives are worse than her, and thinks everyone else secretly wants to destroy other people's lives. It's mindboggling. Plus, you really have to love how she doesn't sleep with the other guys out of guilt, but then rebounds and says she only "technically" cheated on her boyfriend because she made out with Paulie D and looked at his Prince Albert.

In spite of all this, she remains the most enigmatic of the group. There's a strange world weariness about her that indicates a lot of emotional experience. Not emotional maturity mind you, but she's been around the block more than a few times.

#8: Angelina "Jolie"
I hate her. She can't mind her own business, and she always has to tell people when she thinks they're wrong. So right there she embodies two of the biggest personality flaws I can't deal with. That, and she way overestimates how attractive she is. You can't impose yourself on other people like she does when you suck like she does.

I don't know about Jersey specifically, but I've seen enough photos and articles online to know that Guido culture is very real. Jersey Shore is this amazing opportunity to actually experience it in some way.

At least you don't have to deal with these people in real life.  Consider yourself lucky.

Probably. All the girls are fairly unattractive and give off a bad vibe. The guys don't seem like a huge pain to deal with, but I wouldn't like them.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2009, 08:29:32 AM by ReaPsTA »
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Offline Neon

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Re: MTV's Jersey Shore
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2009, 09:59:17 PM »
I invite you to come to work with me for a day.

Holy shit you'd have a field day I think.   :lol
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Offline axeman90210

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Re: MTV's Jersey Shore
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2009, 10:15:45 PM »
guidos crack me up, and most of my friends are bitching about how jersey is not like that... well it is.


It definitely is.  

yup, although it's definitely geography dependent. At least in the area I'm from there's a smattering of  "guido-lite" assclowns but it's not *that* bad
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Offline zerogravityfat

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Re: MTV's Jersey Shore
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2009, 05:33:46 AM »
i meant the shore during the summer, it's spot on.
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Offline jasc15

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Re: MTV's Jersey Shore
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2009, 07:36:59 AM »
Don't underestimate Long Island guidos.  They give the NJ fools a run for their money.

Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: MTV's Jersey Shore
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2009, 08:43:44 AM »
I invite you to come to work with me for a day.

Holy shit you'd have a field day I think.   :lol

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Offline PlaysLikeMyung

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Re: MTV's Jersey Shore
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2009, 09:27:04 AM »
Jwoww?

The fuck kind of name is that?

Offline Bacong

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Re: MTV's Jersey Shore
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2009, 09:30:01 AM »
I fucking refuse to watch this show.  I don't care how real it is, I really don't need to see a bunch of assholes living together.  All they care about is fist pumping?  That looks totally retarded.  I spend 25 minutes spiking my hair?  Closeted homosexual, maybe?  By the way YOUR HAIR LOOKS TOTALLY STUPID...

All the guys on that show are the type of people I refused to become when I was in high school, and all the girls on there are the type of girls I have absolutely no interest in at all.  People who are so self concious on their appearance and that'st he most important thing.... it's not... those people are all shallow... I hate how MTV glorifies shallowness on these types of shows... Spencer Pratt is a total dick and he kind of forced his way to becoming a "celebrity" and I can totally see taht happening with tis show and it pisses me off...

I pray to GOD that this show gets panned and it ends soon.  MTV was starting to get it's act together, by having shows like 16 and pregnant, shows that make a statement.  And they shouldn't be called MTV anymore... they don't even show music videos...

</rant>

Splenty, damn, I agree with you but cut the bitterness! It makes you look insecure. These kids are superficial yes, but holy shit MTV knows how to capitalize on it...and can you blame them? People will watch this in droves, it's compelling stuff. Not like I'm going to watch it, but it's got to be somewhat entertaining.

Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: MTV's Jersey Shore
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2009, 09:30:39 AM »
Jwoww?

The fuck kind of name is that?

Bill Simmons put it best. "The extra 'W' is there so you don't confuse her with the other Jwows out there."
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Offline Bacong

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Re: MTV's Jersey Shore
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2009, 09:31:34 AM »

The Obnoxious

#7: Jwoww
There's nothing genuinely likable about her. Any girl who wants to guitlessly cheat on her boyfriend not only has issues, but some kind of malignant personality disorder. I also have no tolerance for her "If you don't know me, then you hate me, and you wish you were me" attitude. Aside from that not even making sense, it represents an awful attitude toward life. She views herself as someone who destroys other people's lives, thinks people who don't destroy other people's lives are worse than her, and thinks everyone else secretly wants to destroy other people's lives. It's mindboggling. Plus, you really have to love how she doesn't sleep with the other guys out of guilt, but then rebounds and says she only "technically" cheated on her boyfriend because she made out with Paulie D and looked at his Prince Albert.


The little bit of this show I DID see is her kissing him twice and then leaving the club because she "didn't want to cheat on my boyfriend" when she had twice already.

Offline axeman90210

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Re: MTV's Jersey Shore
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2009, 09:35:49 AM »
don't underestimate a guido's power of rationalization. Lord knows they need plenty of it just to leave the house every day.
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Offline Neon

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Re: MTV's Jersey Shore
« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2009, 10:52:30 AM »
Don't underestimate Long Island guidos.  They give the NJ fools a run for their money.


But the absolute WORST are the Staten Island guidos.  I've never met anyone from Staten Island that I didn't dislike almost immediately. 


I really can't stand all this guido (and wannabe guido) nonsense.  I can't stand all this mafia bullshit either- it's been especially bad ever since the Sopranos started.  These people really make me ashamed to be Italian, to the point where I don't even like admitting that I am Italian...which is unfortunate since I have an Italian last name, and I'm actually very proud of my heritage (what I know of it, anyway).   
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Offline axeman90210

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Re: MTV's Jersey Shore
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2009, 10:54:05 AM »
as much as I love the Sopranos, it definitely amplified the spread of the guido disease lifestyle
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Offline sylvan

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Re: MTV's Jersey Shore
« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2009, 07:49:34 AM »
Okay, for those of you with doubts, or if you're just looking for a reason to watch this show, check out this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yn7VvZ0EZCY

I think "Snickers" might actually be dead.  I don't think I've ever seen a chick get destroyed like that.  Truely awesome.


Offline zerogravityfat

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Re: MTV's Jersey Shore
« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2009, 07:53:52 AM »
wow money shot.
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Re: MTV's Jersey Shore
« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2009, 08:00:54 AM »
that's just a preview right, I didn't miss episode 2?
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Offline sylvan

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Re: MTV's Jersey Shore
« Reply #30 on: December 09, 2009, 09:44:30 AM »
that's just a preview right, I didn't miss episode 2?

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Re: MTV's Jersey Shore
« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2009, 10:20:01 AM »
*whew* I wouldn't want to miss the trashy goodness :lol
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Offline sylvan

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Re: MTV's Jersey Shore
« Reply #32 on: December 09, 2009, 02:10:48 PM »
MTV brings us some great face smashes.  Real World Paris when CT went to town on that guys face and the dude never even fought back.  Or when CT destroyed Adam on the RW/RR Challenge.  Or this season on the Challenge when Darrell the boxer combo fucked Brad in the face like it was a title bout.  Or Danny on RW Austin when he got his face caved in by that sucker punch in that street fight they got into.  I almost forgot about Joey on RW Los Angeles, getting shit faced and elbowing through the giant wooden door, "Oops.  OOOPS!"  I guess I can't complain that MTV doesn't air music anymore, we're all better off.

Offline Pyroph

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Re: MTV's Jersey Shore
« Reply #33 on: December 09, 2009, 02:49:22 PM »
Everything that's wrong with people today, all in one show.

Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: MTV's Jersey Shore
« Reply #34 on: December 15, 2009, 11:16:14 AM »
Have you ever been in a Gym class where you had to run a mile, and because you're not a runner, you found yourself running for a little while, then walking for a little while to catch your breath, and then continuing to alternate between the two?

That's what watching episode three of Jersey Shore is like. The Situation is just flying further and further up into the stratosphere of delusion. I have to keep pausing to recover.

 - OH. MY. GOD. Jwoww is who Ronnie goes to for relationship advice?

 - Jwoww is interesting. She's the most openly slutty of the group, but also the most regretful of her sluttiness.

 - Alana and Elena. Amazing.

 - It could just be the MTV editing, but I'm convinced Angelina's boyfriend is cheating on her, or really doesn't like her and wants to break up.

 - If Vinny wants to be classy, what's up with the Purple Tie?

 - Alright, so my Angelina prediction was correct, but she was boning a married guy? Once again, the contradiction in character comes out. Angelina is the one who outwardly cares the most about how women shouldn't be whores, but it turns out that she was dating a married guy. Of course, her reaction is "this is ruining my life." No self-evaluation at all.

 - Of course, The Situation makes a comically wrong evaluation of what's happening. THE BOYFRIEND is the one trying to get the attention by calling.

 - Pauly D's right. Jwoww's boyfriend acts tough, but he's a huge sucker.

 - I actually felt bad for Vinny when he went into work by himself. I hate when people do what they're supposed to do and get shortchanged by things outside their control.

 - I don't care what anybody says, I like Pauly D. Out of all the characters right now, he most realistically sees the world around him. "Angelina was, like, trying to make us beg for her to stay." Yep. I did like that she got in one last dig at The Situation's gray hair.

 - Here's the thing about Angelina leaving, ultimately, it makes the show better. Every time she was on screen, she made it less interesting.

 - I think The Situation talking to Jwoww about her potential breakup was the most sympathy or empathy I saw one person on this show give another (except Snookie helping out her drunk friend). He's like the gift that keeps on giving.

 - "I have my own relationship with Sammy. We're really really tight." Question. Again, I know everything we see is manipulated by editing, but has Sammy talked to The Situation at all either of her own volition, or about something that isn't her hooking up with Ronnie?

 - Oh man, and he just burns with rage as Ronnie and Sammy hook up. The more he talks about how he isn't concerned, the more concerned he gets. Beautiful.

 - "I had a feeling where I wanted to make out with somebody, so, uh, I made out with Ryder [her female friend], 'cause guys like that." By now, you should already know Snookie needs to be the center of attention to have a sense of self. That, and she has no impulse control because her parents probably never told her no as a child. But this quote just sums her up so beautifully.

 - I think the Grill scene beautifully exemplifies what's wrong with these people. Mike's cooking, he's got it under control, he asks Paulie to light the grill. Paulie has no idea what he's doing. Mike goes out, DOESN'T SEE THE CHARCOAL THAT PAULIE PUT IN, and lights it. Mike sees the grill is on fire and has no idea what to do, standing around talking about how they could die. So then Paulie comes up and just picks up the Fire extinguisher to put the fire out. Then Mike looks at the grill, and knows they can keep cooking on it.

Paulie D can be a fairly astute guy who handles things easily. The Situation can be an alright guy. The problem is the layers of delusion and lack of life experience that they purposely inflict on themselves. What's interesting about the grill scene isn't that either of them did anything special. It's the fact that they so quickly vacillated between competence and incompetence based on their very narrowly and specifically defined set of skills.

 - Oh man, I'm already pumped for the next episode. Was Snookers the one that said "Ronnie left with Jwoww"?
« Last Edit: December 15, 2009, 12:46:28 PM by ReaPsTA »
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