Job Interviewing - Do's and Don'ts

[dparrott]

They ranged from software to customer service.  I actually had one more since my post.  Not so many questions, but still a waste of time.

And I hate when I upload a resume, then have to type the same information into some stupid web form.  Just read the damn resume!  What's the point of uploading it if I have to enter the same info by hand???

[jingle.boy]

Guaranteed there's some form of AI that decides if your resume makes it to a set of human eyes.  Unless you're getting personal recommendations/referrals from people that know the hiring manager or HR recruiter, or unless it's a very small company, every resume is filtered thru some form of bot.  Just look at every LI or Indeed job posting to see "731 Applicants", and there's no possible way humans are reviewing them all.

[axeman90210]

So still no update on the job where they told me they wanted to make me an offer late in August. Meanwhile, I got contacted by another recruiter about a different opportunity today. This one wouldn't be quite as much of a jump in salary, and it would involve relocating to Los Angeles rather than Orlando. I think my ideal scenario here is to get them interested and hope it gives the previous people a kick in the ass to make me an offer already.

Meanwhile, I'm also in the process of hiring someone for the team I manage in my current job. I've interviewed two people so far, one who seems like an absolutely perfect fit, but the company dictates that I have to interview at least three candidates and one of them has to be gender diverse. Well, the only female candidate who made it past HR's pre-screening does not have the right background at all, so I guess I'm going to have to waste both her time and mine with a half hour phone interview.

[axeman90210]

Looks like things are back on track with the Orlando job, may have at least the general details of an offer by the end of the week.

[millahh]

Looks like things are back on track with the Orlando job, may have at least the general details of an offer by the end of the week.

Awesome!  But again...Florida...  What would the timeline look like to relocate, given covid considerations?

--

So, something I've been thinking about recently is thank you notes.  In my recent job search, I sent out thank you emails the next morning to all of my interviewers...but they'd already had an internal debrief after I'd finished interviewing that day, so there's no way they could have moved the needle (either because I said something good, or because I just didn't send one). Likewise, every time I've interviewed someone, either for my own department or for an adjacent one, debrief/feedback is at the end of that same day. I understand they are "what you're supposed to do", but in any situation I've been in, the kinetics are such that they wouldn't make a damn bit of difference. What are everyone else's experiences with these, from either side of the desk?

[axeman90210]

Looks like things are back on track with the Orlando job, may have at least the general details of an offer by the end of the week.

Awesome!  But again...Florida...  What would the timeline look like to relocate, given covid considerations?

--

So, something I've been thinking about recently is thank you notes.  In my recent job search, I sent out thank you emails the next morning to all of my interviewers...but they'd already had an internal debrief after I'd finished interviewing that day, so there's no way they could have moved the needle (either because I said something good, or because I just didn't send one). Likewise, every time I've interviewed someone, either for my own department or for an adjacent one, debrief/feedback is at the end of that same day. I understand they are "what you're supposed to do", but in any situation I've been in, the kinetics are such that they wouldn't make a damn bit of difference. What are everyone else's experiences with these, from either side of the desk?

We touched on the relocation piece during my interviews. I told them that while I'm onboard with making the move, as long as Covid is still a crisis the way it is now and the offices are closed anyway I'd prefer to work from NJ. They seemed fine with that, but I'm sure it'll come up again before anything's official. I wasn't anticipating being back in the office for my current job before next summer, so I'm expecting I wouldn't move much before then.


Thank you notes are a funny thing. I hate writing them, especially when I've spoken with multiple different people and I have to make sure the different thank yous are dissimilar enough. But I've not gotten any in recent memory from people that I've interviewed. On one hand I don't mind because I don't think any needles would've been moved, but on the other hand, I'm annoyed that I'm dealing with writing them and others aren't

[jingle.boy]

My opinion - both as interviewee and interviewer - is that letters / emails in-and-of-themselves don't make a difference.  But, it's noticed if/when they aren't sent.

[Stadler]

For me, it's similar to Jingle.  Does sending it get me the job?  Probably not.  Do I want to take that chance, or be the guy that didn't send one?  NOPE.    Even if it's just for me, in my head, when I interview for real (not phone interviews), I send a HANDWRITTEN thank you that day.   I know, I know "the mail"; they get that note well after 'election day' so to speak.   But I want that message sent.    I've learned in 30+ years of job hunting/searching that it's the little things, and who knows when I'm run across that person again.

(Example:  I was with a small group within a bigger, international conglomerate.  That conglomerate was buying a French company.   My old boss - who I hadn't worked with in five or more years - called me and said "hey, got a friend who is going to "conglomerate" in that big deal.  Are you willing to have lunch and just talk to him about "conglomerate"?  If nothing else, he's a nice guy, you'll have a new friend."    Sure.   We make plans, and he calls me the day before and says "any problem if I bring a colleague; he's a lawyer, he may be of help to you, small payback for your help for me".   Sure.    Long story short, to do the deal, "conglomerate" threw my little business into the deal and so I became an employee of the French company.    My new bosses boss?   The lawyer I had lunch with.   When a counsel opening came up during the integration, I walked in and the guy said "I was hoping you were interested; well, we've already had our interview (that lunch).  Any questions?"    I got the job and despite wanting very badly at first to go back to "conglomerate", I'm happy and have been here ever since.)

I take NOTHING for granted in job searches.

[millahh]

For me, it's similar to Jingle.  Does sending it get me the job?  Probably not.  Do I want to take that chance, or be the guy that didn't send one?  NOPE.    Even if it's just for me, in my head, when I interview for real (not phone interviews), I send a HANDWRITTEN thank you that day.   I know, I know "the mail"; they get that note well after 'election day' so to speak.   But I want that message sent.    I've learned in 30+ years of job hunting/searching that it's the little things, and who knows when I'm run across that person again.

(Example:  I was with a small group within a bigger, international conglomerate.  That conglomerate was buying a French company.   My old boss - who I hadn't worked with in five or more years - called me and said "hey, got a friend who is going to "conglomerate" in that big deal.  Are you willing to have lunch and just talk to him about "conglomerate"?  If nothing else, he's a nice guy, you'll have a new friend."    Sure.   We make plans, and he calls me the day before and says "any problem if I bring a colleague; he's a lawyer, he may be of help to you, small payback for your help for me".   Sure.    Long story short, to do the deal, "conglomerate" threw my little business into the deal and so I became an employee of the French company.    My new bosses boss?   The lawyer I had lunch with.   When a counsel opening came up during the integration, I walked in and the guy said "I was hoping you were interested; well, we've already had our interview (that lunch).  Any questions?"    I got the job and despite wanting very badly at first to go back to "conglomerate", I'm happy and have been here ever since.)

I take NOTHING for granted in job searches.

Yours was the response I was particularly interested in, given you history and they type of work you do and at that level.  Definitely a good point about never knowing what may happen further down the road...many industries are small, semi-incestuous world,s and some paths will invariable cross again.  I hadn't been thinking about that angle, but its definitely a good point.

For me, I used them to check the "etiquette" box, but also to try to influence/cement the dynamic with folks who might soon be colleagues, whether that is "flexing" a certain expertise in how I recapped the conversation, or expressing what I'll call "informed curiosity".  Basically, a little reputation management before I ever walk in the door, but (hopefully) without being too heavy handed about it.

I'm glad that I'm not the only one who's been unwittingly interviewed during an acquisition    My experience has been that any time you're interacting with a "big fish", it's effectively a micro-interview for some situation down the road, where their impression of you may become relevant...especially when it comes to being put in leadership positions (and in particular, cross-functional/matrixed ones).  Successfully managing a crisis this year might mean a great assignment next year.

[Stadler]

It's amazing how many times people form lasting impressions that are hard to overcome.   I was always fairly serious at work, but in my early career, doing more heavy construction, I spent a lot of time in the field.  Hard days, and sometimes hard nights.  I left that company and went to GE for about five years, then went back to the first company.  I was a different person then (professionally).  I had my MBA, I had been in board rooms with people WELL above my intellectual level (at GE I can't name one time I was the smartest guy in the room) and I had a different way of offering value.  I never could escape the idea of the PM Cowboy.   It wasn't a bad rep, but it wasn't a board room rep.  Thankfully, when I went back to GE again, they remembered me from my time there and it worked in my favor.

I'd love for my work to be a fun and games party, but it's just not, and while I have friendships where I trust enough to let my hair down, I generally take the approach that "I'm on the clock until I get to my house or my hotel".   

[axeman90210]

So I should have an official verbal offer for the Orlando job tomorrow morning. HR actually called and made an offer today, but they aren't offering either some sort of signing bonus to make up for the bonus I'll be missing out on from working this year at my current job (I'll be in the door too late at the new job) or relocation assistance for when I do move down to Orlando, so I asked them to tack another 5k onto their salary. The HR woman also didn't know the typical bonus structure for my department, so she was going to find out about that so I have a more complete idea of the total comp number. Whatever they offer me tomorrow I'll accept and take to my boss, but the lack of bonus/relocation money means I'm more likely than I was to ultimately stay.

[millahh]

So I should have an official verbal offer for the Orlando job tomorrow morning. HR actually called and made an offer today, but they aren't offering either some sort of signing bonus to make up for the bonus I'll be missing out on from working this year at my current job (I'll be in the door too late at the new job) or relocation assistance for when I do move down to Orlando, so I asked them to tack another 5k onto their salary. The HR woman also didn't know the typical bonus structure for my department, so she was going to find out about that so I have a more complete idea of the total comp number. Whatever they offer me tomorrow I'll accept and take to my boss, but the lack of bonus/relocation money means I'm more likely than I was to ultimately stay.

Not making you whole on the bonus isn't great (and falls short of what I think would be a standard expectation), but not offering relo assistance is just weird. How are they supposed to bring in talent without that?  That seems so odd, especially in finance.  I might almost take this as them not being in tune with industry norms (though of course I'm not in that industry).

I never could escape the idea of the PM Cowboy.   

It took me a minute the realize that PM mean after hours, and not that they saw you as Project Management cowboy (which I like the idea of)

(at GE I can't name one time I was the smartest guy in the room)

"If you're the smartest person in the room, you're in the wrong room"

[axeman90210]

So I should have an official verbal offer for the Orlando job tomorrow morning. HR actually called and made an offer today, but they aren't offering either some sort of signing bonus to make up for the bonus I'll be missing out on from working this year at my current job (I'll be in the door too late at the new job) or relocation assistance for when I do move down to Orlando, so I asked them to tack another 5k onto their salary. The HR woman also didn't know the typical bonus structure for my department, so she was going to find out about that so I have a more complete idea of the total comp number. Whatever they offer me tomorrow I'll accept and take to my boss, but the lack of bonus/relocation money means I'm more likely than I was to ultimately stay.

Not making you whole on the bonus isn't great (and falls short of what I think would be a standard expectation), but not offering relo assistance is just weird. How are they supposed to bring in talent without that?  That seems so odd, especially in finance.  I might almost take this as them not being in tune with industry norms (though of course I'm not in that industry).

Yeah, the relo in particular was surprising. The external recruiter who had been my regular point of contact for this had indicated that relocation assistance would be provided, while also cautioning that a signing bonus might not be in the cards. Combined with the fact that I'd lose about a week of paid vacation in the jump and my 401k match would go from 6% to 4% it makes it much more likely that I end up staying where I'm at, even if the counter is a bit less than what this place is offering.

[axeman90210]

Well, I called to verbally accept the offer for the Orlando job on Friday the 6th but due to a technical issue with their HR system I still don't have any of my onboarding emails, including my written offer. Considering that my current job can't start the process of making a counter until I present them with a written offer and I won't start the clock on my two weeks' notice without it, I'm starting to get a little pissed off. How does it take this long to get me my damn emails.

[Stadler]

But his emails....



I'm just joking, Bill.  That stuff is frustrating, if you ask me.  I know it's not their job to make my negotiations easier, but this is such simple stuff, you'd think they have it down at this point.

[axeman90210]

Yeah, evidently it's not just me but a wider issue they're having with applicants not getting any system-generated emails. They finally emailed me this morning with an alternate link that might work to get me to be able to access my offer letter. Of course I then was having a hard time logging into their Careers portal (which might have been me misremembering the password I set when I created my account to apply), so I reset my password. But the lack of system emails means I'm also not getting the password reset emails They're processing a manual reset and will send me the details, so hopefully I can still get my offer letter later today.

[millahh]

That sounds like a massive, frustrating pain in the ass.

So I'm a week and a half in to the new gig, and...holy shit. Startup biotech life is VERY different to big pharma life, especially in a role like this.  I've done more in the last eight days than in the preceding five months at my old job.  And I'm having to do crazy, consequential shit that I'm not sure I'm qualified for, yet I somehow have more experience in than most of the other folks. But the lack of red tape is refreshing.  Decisions that would have taken weeks are done in 45 seconds. A five minute conversation gets me the clarity it would have taken an hour (or perhaps multiple meetings across several days) to get.  It's high adrenaline, but it's very focused, and there is little wasted energy.

[jingle.boy]

That’s gotta be a bit of a rush, to be honest milahh. Corporate culture of analysis paralysis is beyond maddening.

[cramx3]

That sounds like a massive, frustrating pain in the ass.

So I'm a week and a half in to the new gig, and...holy shit. Startup biotech life is VERY different to big pharma life, especially in a role like this.  I've done more in the last eight days than in the preceding five months at my old job.  And I'm having to do crazy, consequential shit that I'm not sure I'm qualified for, yet I somehow have more experience in than most of the other folks. But the lack of red tape is refreshing.  Decisions that would have taken weeks are done in 45 seconds. A five minute conversation gets me the clarity it would have taken an hour (or perhaps multiple meetings across several days) to get.  It's high adrenaline, but it's very focused, and there is little wasted energy.

Yea, I know the feeling of this when I went from working for one of the biggest banks in the world to working for a tech start up company almost 7 years ago.  All of the sudden everything was quicker and I had more responsibilities.  Less management, less structure, just get everything done and figure it out.  Learned a lot in that time, but now we got bought by another huge company and things are slowly migrating to that same style of work that I had before which really sucks the life out of this job.

[axeman90210]

Finally got my damn offer letter this morning and passed it on to my boss. Now a different waiting game begins.

[gmillerdrake]

Finally got my damn offer letter this morning and passed it on to my boss. Now a different waiting game begins.

Good Luck!

[axeman90210]

Looks like I'm Florida-bound (eventually). The best my boss could get HR to commit to was a 32% increase and then he couldn't get business approval to make that the counteroffer. The business wasn't going to approve anything even remotely competitive versus the offer that I got. I'll finish up my current job on the 4th, have the following week off, and then start the new job on the 14th. I'll be remote until things are a little bit less Covid-y next year.

[gmillerdrake]

That’s exciting! Congrats!

[cramx3]

Looks like I'm Florida-bound (eventually). The best my boss could get HR to commit to was a 32% increase and then he couldn't get business approval to make that the counteroffer. The business wasn't going to approve anything even remotely competitive versus the offer that I got. I'll finish up my current job on the 4th, have the following week off, and then start the new job on the 14th. I'll be remote until things are a little bit less Covid-y next year.

Wow, a 32% increase and still not good enough. Good work, and good luck in Florida.  There's a Medieval Times in Orlando to check out    I think you'll enjoy it down there, everyone who leaves the NYC area realizes how much more relax and better life is outside the big apple from all I've heard from everyone who has left.

[Stadler]

Looks like I'm Florida-bound (eventually). The best my boss could get HR to commit to was a 32% increase and then he couldn't get business approval to make that the counteroffer. The business wasn't going to approve anything even remotely competitive versus the offer that I got. I'll finish up my current job on the 4th, have the following week off, and then start the new job on the 14th. I'll be remote until things are a little bit less Covid-y next year.

Wow, a 32% increase and still not good enough. Good work, and good luck in Florida.  There's a Medieval Times in Orlando to check out    I think you'll enjoy it down there, everyone who leaves the NYC area realizes how much more relax and better life is outside the big apple from all I've heard from everyone who has left.

Yeah, Orlando is the bomb.  If we can ever talk my stepson (and his son) into going south, we'd be in Florida too.  It's got it's downsides like anything else, but I look at where my brother lives (ever see the show "Siesta Key"? That's part of his city) and I wonder why I'm still shoveling snow.

[jingle.boy]

Looks like I'm Florida-bound (eventually). The best my boss could get HR to commit to was a 32% increase and then he couldn't get business approval to make that the counteroffer. The business wasn't going to approve anything even remotely competitive versus the offer that I got. I'll finish up my current job on the 4th, have the following week off, and then start the new job on the 14th. I'll be remote until things are a little bit less Covid-y next year.

Wow, a 32% increase and still not good enough. Good work, and good luck in Florida.  There's a Medieval Times in Orlando to check out    I think you'll enjoy it down there, everyone who leaves the NYC area realizes how much more relax and better life is outside the big apple from all I've heard from everyone who has left.

Yeah, Orlando is the bomb.  If we can ever talk my stepson (and his son) into going south, we'd be in Florida too.  It's got it's downsides like anything else, but I look at where my brother lives (ever see the show "Siesta Key"? That's part of his city) and I wonder why I'm still shoveling snow.

Because August in Florida suck's ass.

[Chino]

Somebody sent a friend of mine this picture about two weeks ago telling them that the CEO and I are very alike and would get along well. The CEO of this company posted this to his LinkedIn page. I'm not entirely sure what the position is, but I emailed the guy on a whim. Based on his post, I completely overhauled my resume to try and mirror his vibe. I even went so far as to define my objective as "I intend to use my skills and passion for technology to assist a worthy supervillain in any and all plots, plans and schemes to take over the world.". I also added an entire page just for my personal hobbies, which is something I typically include as just a small footnote somewhere. Salary and benefits are comparable to what I get now. Yesterday afternoon I received a reply from who I am assuming is his secretary. He wants to set up a zoom meeting with me some time this week. The three year stipulation scares me a bit, but I loathe my current work situation and career path so much. I think it might be worth the gamble to try and pivot completely. The main thing holding me back up until now has been the fact that I live alone and already have to work a weekend gig to keep my house. I can't really afford an industry/career path change because I'd have to take a huge hit to my pay. This job could be an exception to that.



I'm not really sure how to handle the zoom meeting. I have no clue what kind of attire to wear, or where in my house I should do it.

I've been building out a new workspace in my basement and am debating doing it down there. If it was an interview for a corporate position like I'm in now, I wouldn't ever consider it, but I think it might be the right call given everything I've seen so far.


As far as clothes, I was just thinking a collared button down. I'm not sure if a jacket and tie would be overkill. There's also the problem that all of my suits/jackets are for an 80lb heavier version of me. I threw one on last night for laughs and it looked like shit 

Your thoughts?

[Stadler]

First, and I think (hope?) I speak for everyone here, you look GREAT.  Granted I've only met you once in person, but I wouldn't recognize you.   Fantastic!   

I personally think you're spot on: follow your gut.  You've already gone beyond what I would have done (I'm not that bold) and it's working, so keep going.  I would at least wear a collared shirt though; I think there's a line between "creative, free thinker" and "lazy slob".  You've already shown your creative side, you can't go wrong showing that you can bring that out-of-the-box thinking to those that don't have that gene.   I think you want to communicate both.  There's also the respect factor. 

Does that make sense? 

[Chino]

First, and I think (hope?) I speak for everyone here, you look GREAT.  Granted I've only met you once in person, but I wouldn't recognize you.   Fantastic!   

I personally think you're spot on: follow your gut.  You've already gone beyond what I would have done (I'm not that bold) and it's working, so keep going.  I would at least wear a collared shirt though; I think there's a line between "creative, free thinker" and "lazy slob".  You've already shown your creative side, you can't go wrong showing that you can bring that out-of-the-box thinking to those that don't have that gene.   I think you want to communicate both.  There's also the respect factor. 

Does that make sense?

Thanks Broseph. I hear you about the respect factor. When you say "at least wear a collared shirt though", do you mean something like a golf polo rather than a button-down?

[Stadler]

First, and I think (hope?) I speak for everyone here, you look GREAT.  Granted I've only met you once in person, but I wouldn't recognize you.   Fantastic!   

I personally think you're spot on: follow your gut.  You've already gone beyond what I would have done (I'm not that bold) and it's working, so keep going.  I would at least wear a collared shirt though; I think there's a line between "creative, free thinker" and "lazy slob".  You've already shown your creative side, you can't go wrong showing that you can bring that out-of-the-box thinking to those that don't have that gene.   I think you want to communicate both.  There's also the respect factor. 

Does that make sense?

Thanks Broseph. I hear you about the respect factor. When you say "at least wear a collared shirt though", do you mean something like a golf polo rather than a button-down?

No, no, I meant a button down; I was responding to what you wrote: "A collared button down". 

[Chino]

I had my interview yesterday. I'm thinking it didn't go too well. It was scheduled to be a 30 minute meeting and we wrapped it up in 25, which to me isn't a great sign.

It was weird. First off, I think I really hate the whole Zoom thing for first meeting. I get that all jobs require an interview, but it somehow made it feel like an interrogation whereas all interviews I've had in the past fell more like a "let's get to know you" conversation. I think I botched some of my answers too because I tried answering how I thought he wanted me to rather than being completely honest. Major screw up on my end.

The first question he asked was "If you were to decide to build an RC car that could do 200mph, how would you approach it?". Well, in my personal life, I'd go on Youtube or one of my forums and see if anyone else had managed it and start there. If someone built one that did 160, I would think that would be a good place to start. Look at what they did and find room for improvement. But for the answer to his question, I approached it as though I was starting completely from scratch and as if I was doing it 100% on my own from soup to nuts. I'm thinking that was a pretty stupid move on my part.

He then asked "So why do you think you want this job", and at this point of the interview, I still wasn't even sure what the job was. Looking back at his posting, he never really specifies what the job is. I talked about why what he posted peaked my interest, and what in my personal life and skills apply to the things he was looking for, and that it sounded like it could be something I could wake up and look forward to doing everyday. There was then an awkward pause, which sucked.

I'm not expecting a call back. We'll see though. He might just have one of the monotone personalities that's hard to read.

[Orbert]

Try not to be too discouraged.  It can be hard to tell sometimes.  I've had interviews that I thought went really well that never called me back, even to say that they weren't going to call me back, and I've had interviews that I thought I blew which led to offers.  My first thought is that they've scheduled a bunch of interviews in 30-minute slots, so finishing in 25 gives them a break between interviews.  As for the awkward pauses and stuff, like I said, you never know for sure.

[Stadler]

Yeah, I don't mean to blow smoke up your skirt - you were there, I wasn't - but Orbert is on to something.  I know for me, Zoom calls are NOT as good as in person, because it's too easy to get distracted, or to try to shoehorn them in.   He might've had to piss for example (I'm not kidding).   

Be patient, do your autopsy (in case you ARE called back and you have to revisit your questions) and go from there.  Fingers crossed!

[black_biff_stadler]

I remember a while back that Chino had mentioned how algorithms are regularly used to filter applications based on whether or not they contain certain words and he had a very clever way to include them in the resume so they'd get picked up on by algorithms while not being visible to human eyes since they were in a tiny font size and changed to white text thus making them invisible on the white background.

Does anyone know if this works? I basically see myself having a potential fatal flaw either way and just wanna try to get an idea from y'all as to which way is a better way to go. Also, I'm not sure if the algorithm words change from time to time so if anyone has a link for a site with up to date words I'd greatly appreciate it should I choose to go that route.

Include the "algorithm" words:

Advantage-It might help me avoid getting instantly eliminated by places using the algorithm.

Fatal flaw-If someone notices that I've deceptively included the words, they might instantly stop considering me for the job.

Exclude the "algorithm" words:

Advantage-No skeletons in my closet about my resume.

Fatal flaw-My resume is very unimpressive so I could easily get eliminated from many jobs without having the ol' algorithm ace up my sleeve.

My resume basically has just two jobs covering the last 8 years.

Retail job: December 2012-July 2017

Pizza delivery job: September 2017-present

It looks fairly stable but also stable crap.

[JayOctavarium]

Submitted my first resume / application in years. I say that since I believe me submitting a resume to my last job (the short lived one that I was laid off from) was more of a formality, since they wanted to hire me for months without even meeting me>..


Anyways...

It was a site that has you upload your resume, but then they try to fill in their system with the info from the file, but fail at it. I filled in the short lived job, then I took my job, that I had from 2012-2020 in once way or another, and split it into 3. Same company, but different responsibilities. From Nov 2012- April 2016 I'm listed as a Security Guard / Lead, then my short stint with the county here, then Supervisor there Oct 2016-Oct 2019. After that, Area Supervisor Oct 2019-Feb 2020.

I think this works because I spent most of the first stint as a lead, and the second stint I came back as a lead and was very quickly bumped to assistant supervisor then supervisor.  I hope it doesn't look sketchy.

Now I wait. I was referred by a friend who works there, so hopefully that helps me. According to her, the interview process is incredibly tough. Wish me luck!