Job Interviewing - Do's and Don'ts

[Orbert]

I feel like they should have said "hey...so the last one didn't go so well, no big deal, why don't we meet again and try to see how much better things could be" or something. Instead he thought it was a 2nd round interview. He had to ask, mid interview, if this was a 2nd round interview and they just said no.

That's kinda bizarre.  I've never heard of something like that, and as you point out, it could easily have been made more clear what they were doing.

Is there some chance that this was intentional?  Like maybe they too sensed that the first one didn't go well, but they wanted to see how he reacted to being put into an awkward/unexpected situation?  That's the only thing I can think of.

[millahh]

I feel like they should have said "hey...so the last one didn't go so well, no big deal, why don't we meet again and try to see how much better things could be" or something. Instead he thought it was a 2nd round interview. He had to ask, mid interview, if this was a 2nd round interview and they just said no.

That's kinda bizarre.  I've never heard of something like that, and as you point out, it could easily have been made more clear what they were doing.

Is there some chance that this was intentional?  Like maybe they too sensed that the first one didn't go well, but they wanted to see how he reacted to being put into an awkward/unexpected situation?  That's the only thing I can think of.

I doubt they did it just to fuck with him.  If there was any HR-type intermediary between the person making the hiring decision and your friend, it's very likely the message just didn't get communicated correctly. I've seen horror stories in big companies from this kind of stuff, where the "talent/recruitment" folks really fuck up communication, screen incorrectly, schedule badly, etc., and this is academia, where things can get wonky in their own weird ways.

This strikes me as a great kindness from the institution, realizing he just had an off-day and giving him a do-over, but that message got lost.  I understand that it was whiplash for him, but it's a net positive when viewed from a distance.

[cramx3]

Anyone heard of something like this? He's pretty upset and I'm feeling bad about it.

Is it possible they are aware you two know each other and are trying to change it up because of that?  I'd imagine your resumes with the same school and year might give them that impression?  I honestly have no idea, just tossing an idea out.

[axeman90210]

Got a rejection email from the place I interviewed with on Friday. Appropriate at all to reach out to my HR contact for feedback? That was my first interview in more than seven years, and I was never particularly good at it to begin with.

[millahh]

Got a rejection email from the place I interviewed with on Friday. Appropriate at all to reach out to my HR contact for feedback? That was my first interview in more than seven years, and I was never particularly good at it to begin with.

I'm sorry, Bill, that is disappointing.

I don't think it's unreasonable to broach the idea of feedback with HR, particularly because of the divergent outcomes between our first and second interviews. Though 1). couch is as part of a "thank you for facilitating everything", and 2). don't hold your breath for a meaningful response.

[axeman90210]

Yeah, that's what I figured, start with a thanks for arranging the opportunity and then see if there's any feedback he'd be comfortable sharing.

[millahh]

I cannot overstate how fucking much I hate writing cover letters.  It's been 15 years since I had to, and the situation has changed a lot since then...when I was right out of grad school, I was trying to make it look like I brought something unique when I felt like I was working with nothing (same could be said for my CV).  Now, while I have lovingly crafted my CV into something that hits all its marks and is both compact and effective, cover letters are still just an ugly slog.  I know what they need to cover and how to use them to frame up how the employer sees you, but they are excruciating to write, feel really stilted, and I feel like I can't find the balance between showing that I'm qualified, and coming of as been there/done that arrogant (and I'm occasionally trying to spin a ear of experience on something into being more impressive than I feel it actually is).  There's a lot to be said and a very limited space to say it, and the whole thing just feels clumsy.  I guess it's better to have the current problem with it than trying to make something out of nothing, but it is still obnoxious.

The other thing I find myself struggling with is figuring out how to access the "hidden" job market, where everything is done via executive search or by networks. I'm right at the edge of that, job-level wise. There are certainly some things I'm finding that are the right fit, but I know there have to be more out there, and I'm trying to figure out how to tap into those, or get the attention of the recruiters.  There's got to be more than LinkedIn, right?

[jingle.boy]

My belief is that 90% of LinkedIn job posting are never filled via LinkedIn applicants. Probably higher. Seeing my company have jobs show up there that I know are already filled or not going to be filled, and my experience of only getting 2 responses (other than canned FOAD rejection emails) of the 50+ I applied there (with several where my CV lined up perfectly with the job description) in my job search 3 years ago ... yeah, public job postings are the worst way to job hunt.

[Orbert]

A few years ago, after some rearranging and shaking up happened at my workplace, I took a look around, just to see what else was out there.  I realized right away that I had no idea what the current norms were regarding pretty much anything.  Resumes, cover letters, other protocols such as when it's okay to call them vs when you just email them, or maybe just through their website.  Holy shit!  Between that and the fact that I already know my skills are pretty dated and I haven't kept up on things, I just said WTF and decided to try and ride it out.  I have about ten years still until my house is paid off.  I just need to stay employed that long.

So, uh, sorry, no help here.  Just sympathy.

[millahh]

My belief is that 90% of LinkedIn job posting are never filled via LinkedIn applicants. Probably higher. Seeing my company have jobs show up there that I know are already filled or not going to be filled, and my experience of only getting 2 responses (other than canned FOAD rejection emails) of the 50+ I applied there (with several where my CV lined up perfectly with the job description) in my job search 3 years ago ... yeah, public job postings are the worst way to job hunt.

I've been using LinkedIn postings as a way of identifying some of what is out there, then trying to find an "in" at the company (either via network, or just reaching out to their HR person), so that when I submit my materials via the company website (not via LinkedIn!) they are more likely to get proper attention. Another issue with LinkedIn postings is that they disappear even though the position still exists, I've had that happen with a couple of them so far.

Where it gets a little trickier is with positions posted by staffing agencies, there's really no way around to make sure you get better attention, but even then I will go via their website rather than LinkedIn.

The CV matching up perfectly with certain positions is where I foresee my life being unnecessarily difficult.  I'm looking for growth positions, rather than stuff that is a perfect match for my CV. I've tried to reflect that in my CV as much as I can (emphasizing things that show learning, adaptability and portable skills), but I expect I'll still be drawing attention for things where I've been there, done that.

A few years ago, after some rearranging and shaking up happened at my workplace, I took a look around, just to see what else was out there.  I realized right away that I had no idea what the current norms were regarding pretty much anything. 

That would be when your employer split out my current employer?

As far as norms go, I've mentioned it before, but the Ask a Manager blog is pretty much THE source for anything related to job hunting & workplace issues, I know both my CV and cover letter are far better for it.  I still need to work on search tactics, though....

[gmillerdrake]

So I've mentioned in some other threads that I've been furloughed since May 15th.....and have recently been told by my supervisor that they don't foresee any remaining Project Managers being called back during the furlough period that runs out November 15th. After that date....we are essentially fired. I'll get to cash out my 165 hours of PTO and there is a severance package that will be allotted based off of years served (I have 8 years in) Anyway, I've been trying to find other employment since before I was even furloughed. We knew it was coming so I began looking in late February.

Since that date I've applied to (63) positions. Everything from Project Management to AutoCAD drafting. I've had a total of (5) interviews. (3) of which I'm still in the process of which is annoying because just when I think that's the last round of interviews it's "OK, now you have to interview with the baby sister of our HR's neighbors brothers uncle"

The oddest thing I've had to do (and I totally bombed it) was I made it to the third round of interviews with a company and then they said I had a 'video' portion to do. They sent me (6) questions and I had to record my responses via video....not an interaction with a person like a zoom or Microsoft Teams.....just a video response. One take. Once you pressed record on their website that was your response. It was so awkward. I heard back from them a week after that as the told me I didn't make the final cut.

I've been using two cover letters. One for Project Manager positions and one for AutoCAD drafting positions. I think they're 'ok' and I suppose they do the trick but then again I'm only 5/63 so maybe not    Although an HR Rep. from a Company I interviewed with last week told me that (5) interviews out of (then 58) applications was actually pretty good. She said people can apply to over 100 positions before ever hearing a peep.

I'm trying not to get to bent out of shape about not finding a job yet. I would have thought with my experience and background I'd be employed by now but it's been tough. I suppose the job market is so saturated these companies really can just take their time and pick the cream of the crop. I've been humbled a bit because prior to this I really thought that I was one of those top tier people....not trying to be all cocky or whatever but just basing that off of feedback I receive......so....not landing a job yet has really gotten me in a bummed out mood. I'm trying to stay positive but it's getting tougher as each week passes and I'm not collecting a paycheck and relying on unemployment.

[ReaperKK]

My belief is that 90% of LinkedIn job posting are never filled via LinkedIn applicants. Probably higher. Seeing my company have jobs show up there that I know are already filled or not going to be filled, and my experience of only getting 2 responses (other than canned FOAD rejection emails) of the 50+ I applied there (with several where my CV lined up perfectly with the job description) in my job search 3 years ago ... yeah, public job postings are the worst way to job hunt.

You're exactly right. When I was hired from contractor to full-time at my current job they still publicly posted the position for 5 days and just fast-tracked my interview hiring process. I know that's the policy for my company (maybe even law) but to your point most of those jobs have someone in mind when being posted.

[cramx3]

I suppose the job market is so saturated these companies really can just take their time and pick the cream of the crop.

Maybe, but I know my company is in a hiring freeze due to covid.  We have a position we really NEED filled in Amsterdam since we can't travel and my teammate there left almost a year ago now.  We finally got the approval to rehire that position back in May and once we started reviewing resumes, the company put a hold on it even though it's a really needed position to be filled. I'd imagine a lot of other companies just simply can't hire right now for a various amount of reasons.  It's definitely a tough market out there.  I know you are trying hard, something will come of it eventually.

[gmillerdrake]

I suppose the job market is so saturated these companies really can just take their time and pick the cream of the crop.

Maybe, but I know my company is in a hiring freeze due to covid.  We have a position we really NEED filled in Amsterdam since we can't travel and my teammate there left almost a year ago now.  We finally got the approval to rehire that position back in May and once we started reviewing resumes, the company put a hold on it even though it's a really needed position to be filled. I'd imagine a lot of other companies just simply can't hire right now for a various amount of reasons.  It's definitely a tough market out there.  I know you are trying hard, something will come of it eventually.

There is that aspect as well. But then the annoying thing is why even advertise the position if you know you aren’t actively hiring?

I’m sure something will hit here soon for me. At least, I’m hoping.

[Stadler]

I'm trying not to get to bent out of shape about not finding a job yet. I would have thought with my experience and background I'd be employed by now but it's been tough. I suppose the job market is so saturated these companies really can just take their time and pick the cream of the crop. I've been humbled a bit because prior to this I really thought that I was one of those top tier people....not trying to be all cocky or whatever but just basing that off of feedback I receive......so....not landing a job yet has really gotten me in a bummed out mood. I'm trying to stay positive but it's getting tougher as each week passes and I'm not collecting a paycheck and relying on unemployment.

I went through this phase when the market crashed in '08, '09.  I was working in commercial real estate, so you can imagine...

It's a humbling, at times humiliating experience.   Interestingly, a therapist equated it with dating.  He asked me if I was attracted to every woman I meet, and did I think they were instantly attracted to me.  It's a lot like that; there are so many applicants to many of these jobs that it's often an inexact science that boils down to little, intangible things.   It's supremely frustrating to think your livlihood, your career, the well-being of your family might be tied to a 'vibe' someone gets from a video of yours, but that's exactly what happens at times.

(Protip, though; while you are smart to have different letter templates, make sure you customize even the ones within the general job description. Some "key words" from the position will be important universally, but read the job description the company publishes closely and make sure you tailor the phraseology to that as well.  When a company is getting 100's of resumes for each position the initial screen is by algorithm, and even if you have the skillset, if it doesn't get picked up you're as out of luck as the people that didn't have it at all.)

[millahh]

(Protip, though; while you are smart to have different letter templates, make sure you customize even the ones within the general job description. Some "key words" from the position will be important universally, but read the job description the company publishes closely and make sure you tailor the phraseology to that as well.  When a company is getting 100's of resumes for each position the initial screen is by algorithm, and even if you have the skillset, if it doesn't get picked up you're as out of luck as the people that didn't have it at all.)

You beat me to it, I was actually just going to recommend a little customization for each cover letter, both from an algorithm perspective and to match the "vibe" of the posting (if that makes sense) for when it sees human eyes. Different jobs may require similar skill sets, but may emphasize some parts over others, and you can tailor your letter to that.

I don't know how much this applies across the board, but it may be worth remembering: a recruiter I've been talking to said that hiring is usually pretty slow in the summer, as kids are out of school and its vacation time (even this summer, people are still taking time away).  As such, filling positions (and even posting them) can be rather slow before Labor Day.

I've got a bit of whiplash from my search...late Friday afternoon I sent of my application for a "unicorn" position, and I now have a conversation with their HR set for tomorrow afternoon. This means I'm pretty much starting with the highest-stakes opportunity first but it is what it is (it's the HR person, so I think it's primarily about logistics and basics, but I'm still going to spend today brushing up on my interviewing techniques & notes).

[jingle.boy]

(Protip, though; while you are smart to have different letter templates, make sure you customize even the ones within the general job description. Some "key words" from the position will be important universally, but read the job description the company publishes closely and make sure you tailor the phraseology to that as well.  When a company is getting 100's of resumes for each position the initial screen is by algorithm, and even if you have the skillset, if it doesn't get picked up you're as out of luck as the people that didn't have it at all.)

You beat me to it, I was actually just going to recommend a little customization for each cover letter, both from an algorithm perspective and to match the "vibe" of the posting (if that makes sense) for when it sees human eyes. Different jobs may require similar skill sets, but may emphasize some parts over others, and you can tailor your letter to that.

I don't know how much this applies across the board, but it may be worth remembering: a recruiter I've been talking to said that hiring is usually pretty slow in the summer, as kids are out of school and its vacation time (even this summer, people are still taking time away).  As such, filling positions (and even posting them) can be rather slow before Labor Day.

I've got a bit of whiplash from my search...late Friday afternoon I sent of my application for a "unicorn" position, and I now have a conversation with their HR set for tomorrow afternoon. This means I'm pretty much starting with the highest-stakes opportunity first but it is what it is (it's the HR person, so I think it's primarily about logistics and basics, but I'm still going to spend today brushing up on my interviewing techniques & notes).

For sure.  In my hunt 3 years ago, the summer was an absolute slog.  Then, the week right before Labour Day, it was like a lightswitch was flicked - the number of call-backs and email responses I got was demonstrably higher.  Also, vis-a-vis the algorithms that are used to filter resumes... someone told me that for online submissions, and/or cover letters, they'd had a "blank" text file, or a "blank" page on your resume or cover letter that was just a string of text (in white and small font so that it wasn't immediately noticeable to humans) with as many 'catch' words and phrases applicable to the job/company/industry.  I firmly believe the absolute hardest part of a job search nowadays is to get a set of human eyes on your resume and/or cover letter.

[Stadler]

100% on that last point.  Without question. 

[gmillerdrake]

I have another Microsoft Teams interview with the Regional HR VP with STERIS tomorrow. This will be my 5th interview with them. At some point I'm gonna crack and just be blunt and say 'Am I getting this F%cking job or not'     I get wanting to make sure you hire the right person but c'mon.....

[jingle.boy]

I have another Microsoft Teams interview with the Regional HR VP with STERIS tomorrow. This will be my 5th interview with them. At some point I'm gonna crack and just be blunt and say 'Am I getting this F%cking job or not'     I get wanting to make sure you hire the right person but c'mon.....

"We've been dancing long enough.  It's time to fuck".

I had 5 rounds of interviews when I landed the current company I'm with.  That's the deal these days my friend, maybe even moreso now since nobody is meeting face to face.

[Orbert]

The most interviews I've done for a position was four, but it was an hour and a half from where I was living at the time, so that kinda sucked (I would've relocated if I landed it).  It was down to two of us, and they picked the other candidate.  Oh well.

[Stadler]

I have another Microsoft Teams interview with the Regional HR VP with STERIS tomorrow. This will be my 5th interview with them. At some point I'm gonna crack and just be blunt and say 'Am I getting this F%cking job or not'     I get wanting to make sure you hire the right person but c'mon.....

Good luck, boss!

[cramx3]

Yea good luck for sure! The long interview process does seem a bit normal these days, as much as that sucks.  I'd hate it too, but I'm rooting for you Gary!

[millahh]

Five rounds of interviews?  Christ, there are executive hires that don't get vetted that heavily!  That said...I wonder if these were all folks you would have talked to consecutively in a normal interview, but between the scheduling clusterfuck of Covid and the concurrent goat rodeo of getting a bunch of peoples' schedules aligned during the summer, this was the only way to do it.  But five distinct ones just seems like they really could have done it better.  And honestly, it's not very respectful of your time.  But, it is what it is...

I had my HR screen this afternoon, it went pretty well.  The rep I talked to will forward my materials and her positive recommendation to the COO, who will the decide if she wants to initiate the interview process with me.  It is a bit of an odd one, the position has been open for a while, and it's basically taking a load off the COO's plate.  But, these programs are her babies, and she is very reluctant to let just anybody take over some of her responsibilities.  As such, it's not really a competitive process, it's more about whether or not I'm a good fit and the COO wants to bring me on.  So if it doesn't work out, I really have no choice but to take it personally. 

[gmillerdrake]

Five rounds of interviews?  Christ, there are executive hires that don't get vetted that heavily! 

To be fair....the first two I had were 'unofficial' because the position hadn't been posted yet. I am friends with a guy who works with STERIS and he knew the spot was going to be posted so he forwarded my information to the Area Manager I would be working under should I be hired. That man called me....we spoke for nearly two hours during which he told me that when the position opened I'd have to 'officially' apply and begin the process but basically I had just done the 3rd interview in that process. I also spoke with one of his peers at length before officially applying.

So I applied, did the first two initial HR interviews......met in person with the guy I spoke to originally which was another two hour meeting.....and now I'm speaking with the Regional VP of HR today. I've been told the last step is a video meeting with their boss. After that I'd either be offered the spot or told not gonna happen. So, I have hopefully one more after today....and hopefully soon after.

[axeman90210]

Just got the call today for a second round interview that will I think be tomorrow afternoon. Would eventually involve a relocation to Florida after things settle down and they reopen their office down there, but the quoted salary range represents a 36%-56% range over what I make now.

[millahh]

Five rounds of interviews?  Christ, there are executive hires that don't get vetted that heavily! 

To be fair....the first two I had were 'unofficial' because the position hadn't been posted yet. I am friends with a guy who works with STERIS and he knew the spot was going to be posted so he forwarded my information to the Area Manager I would be working under should I be hired. That man called me....we spoke for nearly two hours during which he told me that when the position opened I'd have to 'officially' apply and begin the process but basically I had just done the 3rd interview in that process. I also spoke with one of his peers at length before officially applying.

So I applied, did the first two initial HR interviews......met in person with the guy I spoke to originally which was another two hour meeting.....and now I'm speaking with the Regional VP of HR today. I've been told the last step is a video meeting with their boss. After that I'd either be offered the spot or told not gonna happen. So, I have hopefully one more after today....and hopefully soon after.

Ok that makes a lot more sense!  I can't imagine HR would want to sign off on a hire that was made based on a couple of pseudo-interviews before the posting even existed.  Good luck in the last steps, hopefully  the opinions of the folks you've talked to carry weight with the higher-ups.

Just got the call today for a second round interview that will I think be tomorrow afternoon. Would eventually involve a relocation to Florida after things settle down and they reopen their office down there, but the quoted salary range represents a 36%-56% range over what I make now.

Sounds like a helluva opportunity.  But...Florida?  It's a lot harder to pre-game shows if you're all the way down there!  Of course, this assumes it ever does calm down in FL....

[Stadler]

Just got the call today for a second round interview that will I think be tomorrow afternoon. Would eventually involve a relocation to Florida after things settle down and they reopen their office down there, but the quoted salary range represents a 36%-56% range over what I make now.

Where in the F-L-A? 

[axeman90210]

Just got the call today for a second round interview that will I think be tomorrow afternoon. Would eventually involve a relocation to Florida after things settle down and they reopen their office down there, but the quoted salary range represents a 36%-56% range over what I make now.

Sounds like a helluva opportunity.  But...Florida?  It's a lot harder to pre-game shows if you're all the way down there!  Of course, this assumes it ever does calm down in FL....

Yeah, I'm guessing I'd be able to continue working from home for a while before I'd actually have to look into moving down there. Florida's not my ideal place to live by any stretch, but the combination of the raise and the much lower cost of living effectively doubles my salary. And worst case scenario, my boss is in the NY office so potentially the ability to move back home and into a new role after a couple years.

Just got the call today for a second round interview that will I think be tomorrow afternoon. Would eventually involve a relocation to Florida after things settle down and they reopen their office down there, but the quoted salary range represents a 36%-56% range over what I make now.

Where in the F-L-A? 

Orlando area.

[cramx3]

No state income tax in florida, that raise plus the cost of living and no tax would be a huge gain.  Florida has good weather and Orlando is at least still a spot touring bands will visit (compared to like Miami which is a dead zone for metal concerts) plus there's plenty of other things to do there and nicer weather. 

[Stadler]

If you're cool with an hour or two drive - Melbourne and Daytona on the east coast, Ft. Meyers or Tampa on the west - there's basically no one you can't see in FLA.  I'm consistently blown away when I look on setlist.fm at the bands that have played in those places; and you'll get all the name tours in Orlando.   

[cramx3]

If you're cool with an hour or two drive - Melbourne and Daytona on the east coast, Ft. Meyers or Tampa on the west - there's basically no one you can't see in FLA.  I'm consistently blown away when I look on setlist.fm at the bands that have played in those places; and you'll get all the name tours in Orlando.

Wasn't DT historically known for skipping Florida?  I don't think you'll get as much as the NYC area, but that spot in Florida is not a dead zone for concerts. 

[millahh]

Heard back on the HR screen from the other day, we're moving to the next step, which is a familiarization call with the COO.  If that goes well, then it's the "real" interview, several successive zoom interviews and a presentation.  It will be interesting to see if this could be a good fit, so much depends on the COO's expectations.  And I may need to figure out how to present on something proprietary in sufficient detail to still be meaningful...

I also confirmed that I am underpaid.  This is definitely a step up in level, but when I asked about salary range, she apologized for how low it was (being that they aren't far removed form being a start-up, etc.)..and it was still 5-15% above my current salary.

[gmillerdrake]

Just received the offer from STERIS!     Holy cow....what a relief. Benefits package has been sent to me to peruse tonight and I’ll officially accept the position on a phone call tomorrow morning. Start date to be September 14th.

It feels weird to think about starting a new job but I’m pumped. Just pulled in to the golf course to play a quick (9) holes by myself and reflect a bit.

[cramx3]

awesome, congrats