Genesis Appreciation/Discussion

[HOF]

Good point, and it's the non-mainstream, often dark songs the kept me interested in them until the end.  I was a huge Genesis fan in the 70's and into the 80's, but started to lose interest towards the end ("the end" meaning We Can't Dance).  I guess it's unfair to imply that they went full-on pop, even they weren't full-on prog anymore.

While I tend to not think of Calling All Stations as a proper Genesis album either, it also had some fairly dark moments as well (musically at least). One of the things I like about it.

[Orbert]

True.  If they'd had the time and inclination to do that album properly (it feels rushed and unfinished, and actually was) I think it could have been a pretty good album.  I've heard outtakes from CAS that I like better than what made it onto the album, but they too feel unfinished.  I wished they'd done it right, and I especially would have loved to hear a second album from that lineup.

[HOF]

True.  If they'd had the time and inclination to do that album properly (it feels rushed and unfinished, and actually was) I think it could have been a pretty good album.  I've heard outtakes from CAS that I like better than what made it onto the album, but they too feel unfinished.  I wished they'd done it right, and I especially would have loved to hear a second album from that lineup.

Yeah, I also really like some of the extra tracks, and I agree that maybe they could have grown as a group if they kept on. But they also probably could have used a stronger third voice in terms of writing and I don't think Wilson was able to be that. Not sure where Nick Davis was but he also seemed to phone in the production aspect (with all the fadeouts, etc.), though it does sound good.

I think part of it was the timing of that album. They didn't seem to have a strong sense of direction and the pop/mainstream rock world was really up in the air as well. If they waited until the early 2000s when prog was starting to have a little stronger revival, maybe they could have abandoned the idea of making hits altogether and sort of sold people on a return to the classic Genesis sound. Of course by then Phil was ready to reunite at least to tour.

I will say, I probably listen to Calling All Stations and And Then There Were Three as often as any Genesis album on account of them being so controversial. I really do enjoy the bulk of CAS, and think it might have been better received if it had a name other than Genesis.

[Orbert]

Tony Banks was always my favorite composer within Genesis, but other than a few exceptions, he seemed to need someone else to work with to really make his compositions into songs.  The exceptions include some of my all-time favorite Genesis songs ("One for the Vine", "Can-Utility and the Coastliners") but I have four or five of his solo albums, and they are chock full of dreadfully mediocre "regular" songs.  Tony needs someone to bounce ideas off of and polish his rough cuts into gems.

Mike Rutherford has some good songs, too, but he did his best writing in collaboration with Phil Collins, so that wouldn't exactly help a Genesis without Phil Collins.  And I agree, Ray Wilson doesn't seem to fill the void.  I've read a little bit (not a lot, but a little) about what went into Calling All Stations, and my impression is that they'd come up with a timetable for creating the new album (writing, rehearsing, recordings, mixing, etc) and it simply took longer than they thought it would, but other commitments like release dates and promotions and tour dates were fixed, so they had to go with what they had.  That's not too far from the official story, which is why I don't think it's too far-fetched.

[Fritzinger]

I always wondered what David Longdon would have brought to the table if he had been chosen as a singer for Genesis.

[HOF]

Tony Banks was always my favorite composer within Genesis, but other than a few exceptions, he seemed to need someone else to work with to really make his compositions into songs.  The exceptions include some of my all-time favorite Genesis songs ("One for the Vine", "Can-Utility and the Coastliners") but I have four or five of his solo albums, and they are chock full of dreadfully mediocre "regular" songs.  Tony needs someone to bounce ideas off of and polish his rough cuts into gems.

Mike Rutherford has some good songs, too, but he did his best writing in collaboration with Phil Collins, so that wouldn't exactly help a Genesis without Phil Collins.  And I agree, Ray Wilson doesn't seem to fill the void.  I've read a little bit (not a lot, but a little) about what went into Calling All Stations, and my impression is that they'd come up with a timetable for creating the new album (writing, rehearsing, recordings, mixing, etc) and it simply took longer than they thought it would, but other commitments like release dates and promotions and tour dates were fixed, so they had to go with what they had.  That's not too far from the official story, which is why I don't think it's too far-fetched.

The ran out of time theory makes a lot of sense.

I always wondered what David Longdon would have brought to the table if he had been chosen as a singer for Genesis.

Yeah, me too. I am ultimately glad it didn't work out, because we probably wouldn't have Big Big Train as we know today. But Longdon is definitely the superior of the two singers, and he might have been able to be that missing third person as far as the writing.

[romdrums]

Tony Banks was always my favorite composer within Genesis, but other than a few exceptions, he seemed to need someone else to work with to really make his compositions into songs.  The exceptions include some of my all-time favorite Genesis songs ("One for the Vine", "Can-Utility and the Coastliners") but I have four or five of his solo albums, and they are chock full of dreadfully mediocre "regular" songs.  Tony needs someone to bounce ideas off of and polish his rough cuts into gems.

Mike Rutherford has some good songs, too, but he did his best writing in collaboration with Phil Collins, so that wouldn't exactly help a Genesis without Phil Collins.  And I agree, Ray Wilson doesn't seem to fill the void.  I've read a little bit (not a lot, but a little) about what went into Calling All Stations, and my impression is that they'd come up with a timetable for creating the new album (writing, rehearsing, recordings, mixing, etc) and it simply took longer than they thought it would, but other commitments like release dates and promotions and tour dates were fixed, so they had to go with what they had.  That's not too far from the official story, which is why I don't think it's too far-fetched.

The ran out of time theory makes a lot of sense.

There is a B-side from those sessions called Run Out of Time, so....

[HOF]

Tony Banks was always my favorite composer within Genesis, but other than a few exceptions, he seemed to need someone else to work with to really make his compositions into songs.  The exceptions include some of my all-time favorite Genesis songs ("One for the Vine", "Can-Utility and the Coastliners") but I have four or five of his solo albums, and they are chock full of dreadfully mediocre "regular" songs.  Tony needs someone to bounce ideas off of and polish his rough cuts into gems.

Mike Rutherford has some good songs, too, but he did his best writing in collaboration with Phil Collins, so that wouldn't exactly help a Genesis without Phil Collins.  And I agree, Ray Wilson doesn't seem to fill the void.  I've read a little bit (not a lot, but a little) about what went into Calling All Stations, and my impression is that they'd come up with a timetable for creating the new album (writing, rehearsing, recordings, mixing, etc) and it simply took longer than they thought it would, but other commitments like release dates and promotions and tour dates were fixed, so they had to go with what they had.  That's not too far from the official story, which is why I don't think it's too far-fetched.

The ran out of time theory makes a lot of sense.

There is a B-side from those sessions called Run Out of Time, so....

Yes! The pun was sort of intentional! I really like that song apart from the somewhat cheesy keyboard sax sound.

[Stadler]

If you want a three and a half hour discourse on the Phil Collins era of Genesis, this is a pretty good listen.

https://spiritofcecilia.com/2020/11/02/brad-birzer-talks-genesis/

That's funny; I don't remember doing that.   

[Stadler]

I went through a little Genesis phase a few weeks back, went through most of their 70s albums. They were always one of my least favorite and hardest to get into out of all the biggest 70s prog bands, like Yes, Crimson, ELP, Gentle Giant, Camel, etc... Never cared much for anything past Duke.

Past Duke I wouldn't even consider them a prog band.  More like a band that used to be prog, and still included a few prog tidbits in the albums, but basically had gone pop.

Obs the double concept is their most prog moment, but I would put Abacab up there as their second or third most prog album (they even busted out Supper's Ready on that tour).   FOR THE TIME, there's not really one truly mainstream pop offering on that record.    Abacab - named after it's structure though they reshuffled the parts (Mike has said it's accaabbaacc) - is an oddly constructed tune.  No Reply At All has the Phoenix Horns, a radical - i.e. "progressive" - choice for the time.  We've already talked about the compositional uniqueness of Me And Sarah Jane (probably my favorite song on the album).   Keep It Dark - in 6/4 time - is an unusual song.  Dodo/Lurker is the most typically "prog" song, as it is a part of a longer suite, the remainder released as b-sides.   Whodunnit?, the most controversial song on the record, is far from a "pop" song (and featured the band, live, on different instruments).   Man On The Corner - which was booed at many shows on the album tour, is really FOR THE TIME somewhat innovative, using the Roland drum machine (I think only previously used on Duchess, from Duke).    Like It Or Not and Another Record are a little more straightforward, but they still have their proggish moments.   

The album itself - the first engineered by Hugh Padgham - has been lauded for it's sound quality, and it's the first Genesis album with the famed "Phil Collins sound".   I think it's a high water mark of the band, and EXTREMELY under appreciated.

[HOF]

I really like Abacab too. In that podcast they described it (I think) as the ultimate mix of punk, new wave, and prog. Whatever it is, I like all of the songs except Whodunnit. I do often wish they had kept some of the proggier b-sides on the album (as well as the tremendous You Might Recall), but that doesn't stop me from appreciating the album as it is.

[emtee]

Always loved RPWL'S version of Roses with Ray on vocals.


https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=lhnIKKDyHwE&list=RDAMVMlhnIKKDyHwE

[Stadler]

I really like Abacab too. In that podcast they described it (I think) as the ultimate mix of punk, new wave, and prog. Whatever it is, I like all of the songs except Whodunnit. I do often wish they had kept some of the proggier b-sides on the album (as well as the tremendous You Might Recall), but that doesn't stop me from appreciating the album as it is.

I don't think it's still there, but for the longest time I had an "Abacab Complete" playlist on my iPod with ALL the b-sides.  I think Paperlate, You Might Recall and the "interlude" of Submarine/Naminanu really give the album some variety, even though I can see why they cut what they did. 

[Orbert]

I went through a little Genesis phase a few weeks back, went through most of their 70s albums. They were always one of my least favorite and hardest to get into out of all the biggest 70s prog bands, like Yes, Crimson, ELP, Gentle Giant, Camel, etc... Never cared much for anything past Duke.

Past Duke I wouldn't even consider them a prog band.  More like a band that used to be prog, and still included a few prog tidbits in the albums, but basically had gone pop.

Obs the double concept is their most prog moment, but I would put Abacab up there as their second or third most prog album (they even busted out Supper's Ready on that tour).   FOR THE TIME, there's not really one truly mainstream pop offering on that record.    Abacab - named after it's structure though they reshuffled the parts (Mike has said it's accaabbaacc) - is an oddly constructed tune.  No Reply At All has the Phoenix Horns, a radical - i.e. "progressive" - choice for the time.  We've already talked about the compositional uniqueness of Me And Sarah Jane (probably my favorite song on the album).   Keep It Dark - in 6/4 time - is an unusual song.  Dodo/Lurker is the most typically "prog" song, as it is a part of a longer suite, the remainder released as b-sides.   Whodunnit?, the most controversial song on the record, is far from a "pop" song (and featured the band, live, on different instruments).   Man On The Corner - which was booed at many shows on the album tour, is really FOR THE TIME somewhat innovative, using the Roland drum machine (I think only previously used on Duchess, from Duke).    Like It Or Not and Another Record are a little more straightforward, but they still have their proggish moments.   

The album itself - the first engineered by Hugh Padgham - has been lauded for it's sound quality, and it's the first Genesis album with the famed "Phil Collins sound".   I think it's a high water mark of the band, and EXTREMELY under appreciated.

Interesting.  I have to agree with your analysis, and hadn't really considered how truly unusual every track is on that album.  A lot of it is that they had the gift of making complex and unusual music sound "normal".  Genesis have a lot of songs that are much odder than you realize until you break them down (which most people never do).

However, the title track, when all is said and done, is really just AABAC, which isn't that unusual.  A couple of verses, a break, a third verse, and a jam.  Only the fact that the jam goes in a different direction earns it the C; it is otherwise a pretty straightforward song.

The very next track "No Reply at All" may have the Phoenix Horns, which was a departure for Genesis, but again the song itself is pretty basic AABA.  And since Phil had just done a solo song or two with the horns, many saw this as the "poppifying" of Genesis, via Phil and the horns.

Thus, with the first two tracks, the impression was cast.  The album comes across as pretty mainstream, despite every track after the first two being pretty odd in their own ways.  Except "Another Record" which, other than the weirdass intro, is also a pretty straightforward song.  I've always loved the "joke" at the end, as it fades out and the album is ending, you hear Phil repeating "Put another record on..."

Mostly I tend to skip abacab because of my poor first impression of it, and because I think the live versions on Three Sides Live and generally superior.  I play Three Sides Live all the time; I rarely bother with abacab.

[HOF]

I really like Abacab too. In that podcast they described it (I think) as the ultimate mix of punk, new wave, and prog. Whatever it is, I like all of the songs except Whodunnit. I do often wish they had kept some of the proggier b-sides on the album (as well as the tremendous You Might Recall), but that doesn't stop me from appreciating the album as it is.

I don't think it's still there, but for the longest time I had an "Abacab Complete" playlist on my iPod with ALL the b-sides.  I think Paperlate, You Might Recall and the "interlude" of Submarine/Naminanu really give the album some variety, even though I can see why they cut what they did.

I've had a couple of these through the years. I listened to the most recent one I did today. I sort of did the first half with the more pop/commercial tunes, and the second half with more of the prog tunes.

1. Abacab
2. No Reply At All
3. You Might Recall
4. Paper Late
5. Keep it Dark
6. Another Record
7. Me and Sarah Jane
8. Naminanu
9. Dodo/Lurker
10. Submarine
11. Man on the Corner
12. Like it or Not

I like Like it or Not as the closer, but you could just as easily swap it with Another Record if you want to keep the "put another record on" as the closing refrain.

[Fritzinger]

I'm not sure there is a Steve Hackett thread, so I'll post this here:

Iconic guitarist Steve Hackett, releases his new acoustic album 'Under A Mediterranean Sky' on 22nd January 2021 as a Limited CD Digipak, Gatefold 2LP + CD + LP-booklet and Digital Album via InsideOut Music. Under A Mediterranean Sky is Steve Hackett's first acoustic solo album since Tribute in 2008 and takes inspiration from Steve's extensive travels around the Mediterranean with his wife Jo.
Working closely with long-time musical partner Roger King, Hackett has used his time during 2020's lockdown to take us on an extraordinary musical journey around the Mediterranean, painting vivid images of stunning landscapes and celebrating the diverse cultures of the region. Famed for his rock roots with Genesis, and through his extensive solo catalogue, Hackett demonstrates the exquisite beauty of the nylon guitar at times venturing into the exotic ethnic and often supported by dazzling orchestral arrangements.
"A lot of acoustic ideas had been forming over the years, and it felt like the perfect time to create this album," notes Hackett, "a time to contemplate the places we've visited around the Mediterranean with the kind of music which evolved from the world of imagination.
"Because we can't really travel, substantially at the moment, I hope that the album will take people on that journey. Whether you sit down and listen to it or drift off to it with a glass of wine..."
Track Listing:
Mdina (The Walled City) (Steve Hackett / Roger King)
Adriatic Blue (Steve Hackett)
Sirocco (Steve Hackett / Jo Hackett / Roger King)
Joie de Vivre (Steve Hackett / Jo Hackett)
The Memory of Myth (Steve Hackett / Jo Hackett / Roger King
Scarlatti Sonata (Domenico Scarlatti)
Casa del Fauno (Steve Hackett / Roger King)
The Dervish and the Djin (Steve Hackett / Jo Hackett / Roger King)
Lorato (Steve Hackett)
Andalusian Heart (Steve Hackett / Jo Hackett / Roger King)
The Call of the Sea (Steve Hackett)
Pre-order starts 20th November.

I love Steve's masterful acoustic guitar work, so this has me excited!

[HOF]

That might be interesting. I have Momentum and always enjoyed it but don't listen to it all that often. I've started at the beginning with Hackett's solo stuff but still only have his first four solo albums and Momentum. Haven't gotten around to any of his recent releases, although the last one sounded pretty interesting.

[HOF]

Watching Live at Knebworth (after the official Genesis account shared the YouTube link on Twitter). Another potential missed opportunity after Phil Collins left might have been in not inviting Chester Thompson and even Deryl Stuermer to join the band as recording members. That might have provided more continuity and but also more chops to the recording unit. It doesn't sound like that was something Tony and Mike ever seriously considered unfortunately.

[Orbert]

It was never a consideration, because they were never part of the band.  Genesis always made a distinction between the band proper and the "touring band".  Chester Thompson (and Bill Bruford before him) was only ever the touring drummer because they wanted Phil to front the band, but needed someone on the kit full time.  Daryl Stuermer was only ever the touring guitarist/bassist because they needed someone when Steve Hackett left.

I know what you're saying, and to some it may seem a reasonable compromise, but I've never had any problem with Mike Rutherford's chops.  He's not the flashiest guitarist, but he's fine for what they were doing from the late 70's and beyond.  There was no reason to invite Daryl because they already had a perfectly fine guitarist/bassist.

Chester is another matter.  I read that he was disappointed that he was apparently never considered to replace Phil on the kit when Phil left.  It's possible that Mike and Tony had a bit of tunnel vision regarding Chester, thinking of him as "only" the touring drummer, and not even considering him a candidate as full-time drummer in the band.  After working with him in that capacity for 20 years or so, I can see that.  Phil was originally "only" the drummer, and it was only after countless failed auditions (some say over 100) that it finally occurred to them that they had the new lead singer already in the band.

Mike and Tony had been in Genesis from the beginning.  After successfully carrying on after Peter Gabriel left, and later Steve Hackett, I think they were in a mindset that you don't replace members, you just learn to continue without them, and that worked well for 20 years.  Losing Phil after all that time I think messed with them.  They had to find another singer and another drummer.  One person who could do both would've been great, but when that didn't pan out, I think they panicked, and when you're in panic mode, you're not thinking clearly.  They considered ending Genesis, but eventually decided to carry on, try to make it work.  In hindsight, maybe they should've called the new band something else.  But with Mike and Tony in the band, many would've just called it the "new Genesis" anyway, and my guess is that helped them decide to continue as Genesis.  I mean, if everyone was going to call them the "new Genesis", they might as well do it, too.

[HOF]

It sounds like many mistakes were made. Ultimately it just wasn't a great time to try to reboot Genesis I don't think.

In suggesting Daryl join the band, I'm not trying to belittle Rutherford's abilities at all. But I do think it would have been interesting for him to go back to focus mainly on bass with Stuermer providing a little more oomph in the lead guitar department. Of course if they wanted that they could have had Daryl add guitar at any time after Hackett left, so there probably wasn't much interest in doing it at that point either.

[Lupton]

Regarding the drums on Calling All Stations I found this discussion between Nick and Chester to be interesting
https://youtu.be/qHSmYIlIYoM?t=1542

Around 25:45 mark Chester flips the interview around on Nick! 

[The Letter M]

Happy 46th Birthday to The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway!!! 🐑 🐑 🐑

Giving the album a spin tonight as I head to bed. I haven't heard the original Lamb in awhile (typically I'll listen to the Rewiring Genesis version), but I guess The Lamb's birthday is a good day to go back to the original!

Funnily enough, I find myself remember more of the lyrics than I thought I would! Such a good album!

-Marc.

[Stadler]

Happy 46th Birthday to The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway!!! 🐑 🐑 🐑

Giving the album a spin tonight as I head to bed. I haven't heard the original Lamb in awhile (typically I'll listen to the Rewiring Genesis version), but I guess The Lamb's birthday is a good day to go back to the original!

Funnily enough, I find myself remember more of the lyrics than I thought I would! Such a good album!

-Marc.

I love that, though; when you go back to something and the lyrics (and melodies) just flood back.  That just happened to me with Ozzy.  I hadn't listened to him in a while, but I put on Blizzard and Diary and I knew every word, every fill (drums and guitar), etc.   It felt good.

[HOF]

I was kind of randomly listening to The Lamb the other day. It's never been one of my favorite Genesis albums. A large part of that is the lyrics, but the music is also pretty drastically different in places than other Genesis albums. There are parts that I think are pretty great. I just have a hard time getting through all of it.

[Zydar]

I think the album starts off great, but the second disc/half loses my interest pretty quick. I'd still rank it pretty high in their discography, based on the strength of that first half (The Lamb, Cuckoo Cocoon, In The Cage, Back In NYC, Hairless Heart, Counting Out Time, Carpet Crawlers).

[HOF]

I think the album starts off great, but the second disc/half loses my interest pretty quick. I'd still rank it pretty high in their discography, based on the strength of that first half (The Lamb, Cuckoo Cocoon, In The Cage, Back In NYC, Hairless Heart, Counting Out Time, Carpet Crawlers).

Yeah, it begins and ends well, but to some extent I get lost in the middle. Carpet Crawlers is great though.

[Kwyjibo]

I never really could get into Lamb. Some great songs there but overall it never clicked with me. Ranks probably in the lower third of their discography for me.

[romdrums]

I've always felt that The Lamb was an album that chose Genesis to record it.  It's unlike anything before or after in their catalog.

[Stadler]

I've always felt that The Lamb was an album that chose Genesis to record it.  It's unlike anything before or after in their catalog.

I love that idea.  There's probably some truth in that, since particularly with Gabriel, he's never even approached that level or style of storytelling since. 

[romdrums]

I've always felt that The Lamb was an album that chose Genesis to record it.  It's unlike anything before or after in their catalog.

I love that idea.  There's probably some truth in that, since particularly with Gabriel, he's never even approached that level or style of storytelling since.

To me, A Trick of the Tail is more of the logical follow up to Selling England than the Lamb was.  Trick and Selling are both kind of lush and romantic sounding, whereas The Lamb is very "street" and sort of gritty.  I think it's particularly interesting that they were able to capture that vibe recording in the Welsh country side.

[Madman Shepherd]

I never really could get into Lamb. Some great songs there but overall it never clicked with me. Ranks probably in the lower third of their discography for me.

Same here. Then I saw The Musical Box (tribute band) play about half the album live and it really breathed new life into it. Now I appreciate the album a lot more.

For some reason when I went to Hawaii, my wife and I listened to that album on repeat as we drove around, so now I associate The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway with the tiny island of Molokai.  About the furthest thing from what the album is about.

[Stadler]

I never really could get into Lamb. Some great songs there but overall it never clicked with me. Ranks probably in the lower third of their discography for me.

Same here. Then I saw The Musical Box (tribute band) play about half the album live and it really breathed new life into it. Now I appreciate the album a lot more.

For some reason when I went to Hawaii, my wife and I listened to that album on repeat as we drove around, so now I associate The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway with the tiny island of Molokai.  About the furthest thing from what the album is about.

I saw that (the Musical Box) too.  Wonderful.  I have tix to them - front row - for when concerts resume.

[emtee]

Parts I love. Parts I actively dislike. Lower tier overall. Fly On A Windshield is among my favorites.

[Madman Shepherd]

I never really could get into Lamb. Some great songs there but overall it never clicked with me. Ranks probably in the lower third of their discography for me.

Same here. Then I saw The Musical Box (tribute band) play about half the album live and it really breathed new life into it. Now I appreciate the album a lot more.

For some reason when I went to Hawaii, my wife and I listened to that album on repeat as we drove around, so now I associate The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway with the tiny island of Molokai.  About the furthest thing from what the album is about.

I saw that (the Musical Box) too.  Wonderful.  I have tix to them - front row - for when concerts resume.

Me too. It's actually become a yearly tradition for my wife and I. Last year the concert just happened to fall the day after Dream Theater played so it was a hell of a weekend.

[DTA]

I've made an effort recently to listen to albums by bands I really like that I ignored or only listened to minimally, so Trespass and Calling All Stations have gotten heavy rotation from me in the past few weeks. CAS is a lot better than I remember. The whole back half of the album from The Dividing Line-One Man's Fool is all pretty high quality stuff. And the first half is pretty solid as well. I really don't hear any clunkers, except maybe a few cheesy moments like Shipwrecked and If That's What You Need. I think my favorite moment overall is the dorky keyboard solo at the end of Congo that could've only been written by Tony Banks...it's goofy as hell but so uniquely him to my ears.

Any thoughts on this one? I know there's a whole bunch of b-sides but I've never bothered listening to them since I was so turned off by the actual album but I may seek them out after changing my opinion on the album.