Genesis Appreciation/Discussion

[Silent Man]

I love Down and Out.  This was my first Genesis album, and that opening got me good, the way it stumbles into the 5/4 via a single bar of 6/4 that makes it sound like the record skipped.  Guitar leads and synth leads, Phil pounding those skins, the intro and outro, I love pretty much everything about the song.  I thought it was a hell of a statement.  "So there's only three of us now, but check this out."

This. Down and Out is phenomenal. The tempo shift is well thought out, and if anyone could get it done this way, it was Genesis. This song still sends thrills down my spine every time I hear it..

[Orbert]

I love Down and Out.  This was my first Genesis album, and that opening got me good, the way it stumbles into the 5/4 via a single bar of 6/4 that makes it sound like the record skipped.  Guitar leads and synth leads, Phil pounding those skins, the intro and outro, I love pretty much everything about the song.  I thought it was a hell of a statement.  "So there's only three of us now, but check this out."

Down & Out is awesome. Phil is absolutely on phire on this track!
Also, I always thought of it as an answer to Dance On A Volcano: "better start doing it right" vs "show me someone doing it better".

I've long thought of Down and Out as "Squonk in 5/4".  Both songs kinda stomp along in Dm, in their respective time signatures.

[Fritzinger]

I love Down and Out.  This was my first Genesis album, and that opening got me good, the way it stumbles into the 5/4 via a single bar of 6/4 that makes it sound like the record skipped.  Guitar leads and synth leads, Phil pounding those skins, the intro and outro, I love pretty much everything about the song.  I thought it was a hell of a statement.  "So there's only three of us now, but check this out."

Down & Out is awesome. Phil is absolutely on phire on this track!
Also, I always thought of it as an answer to Dance On A Volcano: "better start doing it right" vs "show me someone doing it better".

I've long thought of Down and Out as "Squonk in 5/4".  Both songs kinda stomp along in Dm, in their respective time signatures.

Ha, that's interesting! Never thought of it that way, because imo Down & Out is much more aggressive and straight forward than Squonk.

Talking about And Then There Were Three, I also think Undertow is absolutely beautiful. Afterglow always gets mentioned (and played live), but in my book, Undertow is just as great.

[ytserush]

I love Down and Out.  This was my first Genesis album, and that opening got me good, the way it stumbles into the 5/4 via a single bar of 6/4 that makes it sound like the record skipped.  Guitar leads and synth leads, Phil pounding those skins, the intro and outro, I love pretty much everything about the song.  I thought it was a hell of a statement.  "So there's only three of us now, but check this out."

Duke was my first Genesis album and that may be why it doesn't jump out at me.

I do that that the "skipping" part though. I think the way it's mixed might be my problem too.  Most of my listening is on the original CD. Never got the 1994 remaster, but I do think the most recent mix sounds better but being sandwiched between Seconds Out and Duke doesn't do it any favors on my shelf.

Perhaps I've overlooked it. What do you like about Undertow?

[ytserush]

I love Down and Out.  This was my first Genesis album, and that opening got me good, the way it stumbles into the 5/4 via a single bar of 6/4 that makes it sound like the record skipped.  Guitar leads and synth leads, Phil pounding those skins, the intro and outro, I love pretty much everything about the song.  I thought it was a hell of a statement.  "So there's only three of us now, but check this out."

isn't it that song where they tried to play it live a couple of times and got all confused  because they couldn't agree where the downbeat of « 1 » was?

Is there a live version of this song? I might enjoy it more.

[romdrums]

I love Down and Out.  This was my first Genesis album, and that opening got me good, the way it stumbles into the 5/4 via a single bar of 6/4 that makes it sound like the record skipped.  Guitar leads and synth leads, Phil pounding those skins, the intro and outro, I love pretty much everything about the song.  I thought it was a hell of a statement.  "So there's only three of us now, but check this out."

Down & Out is awesome. Phil is absolutely on phire on this track!
Also, I always thought of it as an answer to Dance On A Volcano: "better start doing it right" vs "show me someone doing it better".

I've long thought of Down and Out as "Squonk in 5/4".  Both songs kinda stomp along in Dm, in their respective time signatures.

Down and Out is far and away my favorite from that album.  I've never thought that it stomped along.  Phil drives that song hard, like, to the point where it feels dangerously close to coming off the rails.  I think that's one of the reasons I like it so much.

[Stadler]

I love Down and Out.  This was my first Genesis album, and that opening got me good, the way it stumbles into the 5/4 via a single bar of 6/4 that makes it sound like the record skipped.  Guitar leads and synth leads, Phil pounding those skins, the intro and outro, I love pretty much everything about the song.  I thought it was a hell of a statement.  "So there's only three of us now, but check this out."

isn't it that song where they tried to play it live a couple of times and got all confused  because they couldn't agree where the downbeat of « 1 » was?

Is there a live version of this song? I might enjoy it more.

It was played early on on the tour, but according to the legend, Chester could never quite get his arms around that time signature, and it was dropped about three months into the tour.  I don't know of any boots of those early shows. 

[Madman Shepherd]

My favorite song off of that album is Snowbound.

What a weird song.

[Stadler]

That's one of my favorite things about Genesis; it sounds like a fairly melancholy love song, right?  It's whack though; it's about a man who wears a snowman outfit to hide from people but while inside, becomes paranoid and finds he cannot get out.  Or so Collins and Rutherford have said in interviews (they're Rutherford's lyrics).

[Orbert]

I love Down and Out.  This was my first Genesis album, and that opening got me good, the way it stumbles into the 5/4 via a single bar of 6/4 that makes it sound like the record skipped.  Guitar leads and synth leads, Phil pounding those skins, the intro and outro, I love pretty much everything about the song.  I thought it was a hell of a statement.  "So there's only three of us now, but check this out."

Duke was my first Genesis album and that may be why it doesn't jump out at me.

I do that that the "skipping" part though. I think the way it's mixed might be my problem too.  Most of my listening is on the original CD. Never got the 1994 remaster, but I do think the most recent mix sounds better but being sandwiched between Seconds Out and Duke doesn't do it any favors on my shelf.

Perhaps I've overlooked it. What do you like about Undertow?

I just think it's a beautiful song.  In the early days, Genesis could get mellow without it being all silly and sappy.  Chill stuff like "Undertow", "Snowbound", and "Say It's Alright, Joe" I think are just amazing at capturing a mood and exploring it.

Duke is incredible, my favorite Genesis album.  I can see how ATTWT pales a bit in comparison.  And that's why I always try to listen to a band's catalog in order.  The progression made from one album to the next, as the times and the music biz changed, maybe some personnel changes along the way, all of that matters to me.  In some ways, ATTWT was the debut album of a new band.  I don't mark it down because they later learned to work the formula better.

[pg1067]

I love Down and Out.  This was my first Genesis album, and that opening got me good, the way it stumbles into the 5/4 via a single bar of 6/4 that makes it sound like the record skipped.  Guitar leads and synth leads, Phil pounding those skins, the intro and outro, I love pretty much everything about the song.  I thought it was a hell of a statement.  "So there's only three of us now, but check this out."

isn't it that song where they tried to play it live a couple of times and got all confused  because they couldn't agree where the downbeat of « 1 » was?

Is there a live version of this song? I might enjoy it more.

It was played early on on the tour, but according to the legend, Chester could never quite get his arms around that time signature, and it was dropped about three months into the tour.  I don't know of any boots of those early shows.

That seems spurious.  Genesis had plenty of material in 5/4 (the predominant time signature in the song, with parts being in good old 4/4), and I doubt it would phase Chester much (although there is some odd syncopation).


Here's a live version:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4ieW-bXMwM

[Orbert]

Down and Out is far and away my favorite from that album.  I've never thought that it stomped along.

That's just the word I think of when I think of those big Dm chords:
BOMP! BOMP! BOMP! BOMP! BOMP!
It's-good-to-be-here-how've-you-been? Check-my-bags-boy-where's-my-room?

Such a killer way to bust into a song.  I love it.  I doesn't feel to me like they're nearly losing control, to me it's more like total control.

BOMP! BOMP! BOMP! BOMP! BOMP!

Synth solo comes at you out of nowhere.  First of several tasty leads by Mike Rutherford on guitar.  Then back into the ethereal stuff that opened the song.  Perfection.

[ytserush]

I love Down and Out.  This was my first Genesis album, and that opening got me good, the way it stumbles into the 5/4 via a single bar of 6/4 that makes it sound like the record skipped.  Guitar leads and synth leads, Phil pounding those skins, the intro and outro, I love pretty much everything about the song.  I thought it was a hell of a statement.  "So there's only three of us now, but check this out."

isn't it that song where they tried to play it live a couple of times and got all confused  because they couldn't agree where the downbeat of « 1 » was?

Is there a live version of this song? I might enjoy it more.

It was played early on on the tour, but according to the legend, Chester could never quite get his arms around that time signature, and it was dropped about three months into the tour.  I don't know of any boots of those early shows.

That seems spurious.  Genesis had plenty of material in 5/4 (the predominant time signature in the song, with parts being in good old 4/4), and I doubt it would phase Chester much (although there is some odd syncopation).


Here's a live version:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4ieW-bXMwM

In my very limited experience with live Genesis during this period, that performance seemed tentative. Maybe they weren't comfortable playing it? 

Anyway, I'm going to get listen to the most recent mix of this a bit more and see what happens. I always liked the drumming on it.

[Trav]

Am I the only one who loves "...And Then There Were Three"?

[Fritzinger]

Am I the only one who loves "...And Then There Were Three"?

You are not. We literally just had a whole discussion about this album in the last 40 posts or so 

[Trav]

Am I the only one who loves "...And Then There Were Three"?

You are not. We literally just had a whole discussion about this album in the last 40 posts or so 

I just jumped in. Thanks, I'll go back and read it!

[DragonAttack]

In the 80's, I was in a band that opened with Squonk for a while, because we were all progheads playing in a bar band and we liked the song.  Opening song from Seconds Out seemed like a good choice, right?  The other two Genesis songs we did were Abacab and Turn It On Again just because we could.  We played some Alan Parsons Project, a bunch of The Police, some crazy shit.  Problem is, we were playing backwoods bars in Northern Michigan who had no idea what to make of it.  They tolerated it, but came alive when we played Born To Be Wild.  Okay.

We had fun, though.  We were practicing during the day in a bar in Manistee, and the bartender asked us if we knew any Emerson Lake & Palmer, and me, the bassist, and the drummer had just figured out the beginning of Tarkus like a week before for the hell of it, so we threw it at him.  Blew his mind.  He said he'd never, ever expected to hear Tarkus in a bar before, let alone this one.  We made his day, his whole weekend.

Ever bump into a band called 'Einstein'?  They played the 'west coast' at times, the Grand Rapids area mostly, and some times up near Mackinac.  At festivals, they opened for Mitch Ryder and Rare Earth.  I got to be onstage a few times when they would do 'Abacab', 'Turn It On', and 'Afterglow'.  'Lamb' was all of their favorite album. 

[Orbert]

I can't say that 'Einstein' sounds familiar, other than the obvious reference to the famous scientist, but we didn't actually run into many other bands back then.  Typically, everyone was off on their own gigs, so the only time you'd even see another band is if you were at a multi-band thing, or you weren't gigging that night and went and checked someone out.  Basically, if we weren't gigging, we didn't have money, so going out wasn't really an option.

We did end up in Grand Rapids a few times, mostly at the Coral Gables.  I seem to think there was more than one, although I may be confusing that with the Kalamazoo one.  There was one we called the "Space Gables", as the interior decor was all modern and spacey-looking.  We also hit places like Benton Harbor, Sandy Point, and other places on the coast.

[HOF]

It occurs to me that some people here might have interest in this. If you are the type to collect books about bands and need another Genesis book.

https://vimeo.com/415194237?fbclid=IwAR0Oqg4hTTilkE6G15Wx5FgPPhKEHoSuiG4WNa3gOJT8KI55SEDe3QDGqtM

Can order here:
https://burningshed.com/mario-giammetti_genesis-1967-to-1975_book

Curious to know if anyone gets/has this, and whether it adds anything interesting to other books/documentaries, etc. about Genesis. I have the Chapter and Verse book and there's a lot of stuff in the re-issue box sets so not sure I need another book but it looks interesting. 

[HOF]

Since I'm currently obsessing over prog bass players, listening now to The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway (song), and man does Rutherford have the most snarly and aggressive bass line going on under there.

Another great one now: The Fountain of Salmacis. Some great contrast between the softer groove during the verse and the more aggressive playing during the chorus and instrumental section.

Underrated Rutherford moment: A Trick of the Tale (song). This one sounds a lot like something Pete Trewavas might have channeled in places.

One of Rutherford's strongest efforts of the trio era: Driving the Last Spike. Lots of space for him to fill on this track that takes its time building up as it moved through different sections and tempos.

[Orbert]

Great coincidence!  I was just listening to And Then There Were Three earlier and thinking about how much Mike was all over the bass there, as well as taking up lead guitar duties.  He was never a really gifted lead guitarist, but he was tasty, so I tend to focus on that on the later albums and temporarily forgot what a great bassist he is.

[HOF]

Great coincidence!  I was just listening to And Then There Were Three earlier and thinking about how much Mike was all over the bass there, as well as taking up lead guitar duties.  He was never a really gifted lead guitarist, but he was tasty, so I tend to focus on that on the later albums and temporarily forgot what a great bassist he is.

I didn't get to anything off ATTWT earlier, but The Lady Lies has to be way up there in terms of the top Rutherford bass tracks, especially the choruses and middle section!

[HOF]

There's also a number of great Rutherford parts that are more of a soul/R&B type feel like Misunderstanding, Please Don't Ask, or You Might Recall. One of my very favorite Rutherford parts is from No Reply at All. That video in particular is fun to watch because it gives a good view of him going to town at several points. All videos should just be the band sitting around jamming in one room IMO.

[pg1067]

There's also a number of great Rutherford parts that are more of a soul/R&B type feel like Misunderstanding, Please Don't Ask, or You Might Recall. One of my very favorite Rutherford parts is from No Reply at All. That video in particular is fun to watch because it gives a good view of him going to town at several points. All videos should just be the band sitting around jamming in one room IMO.

That No Reply at All video was one of the things that made me think the bass would be a really cool instrument to learn!  His line and tone right before and during the "I get the feeling you're trying to tell me" section are so great!

[Stadler]

Music moves me in various ways... the lyrics inspire, the music is of a tempo and volume that invigorates... but with some bands the SOUNDS are warm and soothing.  That is Genesis to me, and there are three main components to that: I love the heft and thickness of Phil's drums, I love that sound of the electric piano that Tony has - think "Turn It On Again" or "Cul-de-sac" or "Heathaze"; and I love the sound of Mike's bass - think "Duke's Travel's/Duke's End".   

I've said this before, but the Medley section of "In The Cage" is my favorite piece of recorded music, and Mike plays a role in that.

[HOF]

There's also a number of great Rutherford parts that are more of a soul/R&B type feel like Misunderstanding, Please Don't Ask, or You Might Recall. One of my very favorite Rutherford parts is from No Reply at All. That video in particular is fun to watch because it gives a good view of him going to town at several points. All videos should just be the band sitting around jamming in one room IMO.

That No Reply at All video was one of the things that made me think the bass would be a really cool instrument to learn!  His line and tone right before and during the "I get the feeling you're trying to tell me" section are so great!

That part is so great!

Music moves me in various ways... the lyrics inspire, the music is of a tempo and volume that invigorates... but with some bands the SOUNDS are warm and soothing.  That is Genesis to me, and there are three main components to that: I love the heft and thickness of Phil's drums, I love that sound of the electric piano that Tony has - think "Turn It On Again" or "Cul-de-sac" or "Heathaze"; and I love the sound of Mike's bass - think "Duke's Travel's/Duke's End".   

I've said this before, but the Medley section of "In The Cage" is my favorite piece of recorded music, and Mike plays a role in that.

I know what you mean. I was listening to Duke last night actually and thinking how odd it was that this particular music moves me as much as it does. But those sounds in themselves are so unique and meaningful to me.

[ytserush]

Great coincidence!  I was just listening to And Then There Were Three earlier and thinking about how much Mike was all over the bass there, as well as taking up lead guitar duties.  He was never a really gifted lead guitarist, but he was tasty, so I tend to focus on that on the later albums and temporarily forgot what a great bassist he is.

I was always surprised by his bass and guitar on that album.

[ytserush]

There's also a number of great Rutherford parts that are more of a soul/R&B type feel like Misunderstanding, Please Don't Ask, or You Might Recall. One of my very favorite Rutherford parts is from No Reply at All. That video in particular is fun to watch because it gives a good view of him going to town at several points. All videos should just be the band sitting around jamming in one room IMO.

That No Reply at All video was one of the things that made me think the bass would be a really cool instrument to learn!  His line and tone right before and during the "I get the feeling you're trying to tell me" section are so great!

I really love his tone on that one.

[Silent Man]

Since I'm currently obsessing over prog bass players, listening now to The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway (song), and man does Rutherford have the most snarly and aggressive bass line going on under there.

Another great one now: The Fountain of Salmacis. Some great contrast between the softer groove during the verse and the more aggressive playing during the chorus and instrumental section.

Underrated Rutherford moment: A Trick of the Tale (song). This one sounds a lot like something Pete Trewavas might have channeled in places.

One of Rutherford's strongest efforts of the trio era: Driving the Last Spike. Lots of space for him to fill on this track that takes its time building up as it moved through different sections and tempos.

You're absolutely right, MR spread those marvellous basslines all over the place. But at the time of The Lamb, Genesis was still a 100% prog band IMO. That means, if you asked the average listener about if he noticed those basslines, he would probably answer: 'What bass?' And I really miss these days, where he still used that sound on the bass and used his creative ideas in the way he did. Another example would be, maybe long time forgotten, 'Inside and Out' from the EP 'Spot the Pigeon':

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyeUizLp1rk

Again if you asked the average Joe about the incredible fast bassruns at 5:20, he would probably answer that he didn't listen to that part, because there were 'too many nodes' or that he found the song 'just boring'...

That song is just a prime example how unique Genesis was, how they were all committed to their ideas about how a song should be performed, especially these 'crazy parts' where all of them went berserk - but still followed each other like one unit.

Another example could be 'One for the Vine' out of 'Wind and Wuthering' - a wonderful composed song with a lot of sections put together, but you get the feeling that this just has to be like that, the song fits 100% together like it is. And again, how many notice the deep and well controlled bass during the quiet beginning, and how well structured it is? I once played in a band where I played the song for the other guitarist, and asked him how he thought about the bass. He said he didn't hear it, and the song was 'utter crap'...

Then the band changed towards their more 'pop oriented' style, and the 'crazy' pieces seemed to to be put to the background, more or less. But if you followed the band from their early days, it's easy to recognize their playing habits, even though they are more like 'under the surface'.

A completely different thing is Mike's other band, 'Mike + Mechanics'. Appearently, his idea was to create a more mainstream oriented band, which I have found rather boring. No crazy parts, and I didn't like his choice of singers. It was like they didn't really fit in, something about the same as with Tony's solo efforts. An exception was 'Smallcreep's Day', his first solo album (not labeled as a Mechanics album). That one had a very special mood and some interesting work, also as a guitarist.

[Silent Man]

Ha...I'm not the only one who think 'Smallcreep's Day' is marvellous. Look at the comments on YT:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lg6FYXVFdI

[HOF]

Since I'm currently obsessing over prog bass players, listening now to The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway (song), and man does Rutherford have the most snarly and aggressive bass line going on under there.

Another great one now: The Fountain of Salmacis. Some great contrast between the softer groove during the verse and the more aggressive playing during the chorus and instrumental section.

Underrated Rutherford moment: A Trick of the Tale (song). This one sounds a lot like something Pete Trewavas might have channeled in places.

One of Rutherford's strongest efforts of the trio era: Driving the Last Spike. Lots of space for him to fill on this track that takes its time building up as it moved through different sections and tempos.

You're absolutely right, MR spread those marvellous basslines all over the place. But at the time of The Lamb, Genesis was still a 100% prog band IMO. That means, if you asked the average listener about if he noticed those basslines, he would probably answer: 'What bass?' And I really miss these days, where he still used that sound on the bass and used his creative ideas in the way he did. Another example would be, maybe long time forgotten, 'Inside and Out' from the EP 'Spot the Pigeon':

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyeUizLp1rk

Again if you asked the average Joe about the incredible fast bassruns at 5:20, he would probably answer that he didn't listen to that part, because there were 'too many nodes' or that he found the song 'just boring'...

That song is just a prime example how unique Genesis was, how they were all committed to their ideas about how a song should be performed, especially these 'crazy parts' where all of them went berserk - but still followed each other like one unit.

Another example could be 'One for the Vine' out of 'Wind and Wuthering' - a wonderful composed song with a lot of sections put together, but you get the feeling that this just has to be like that, the song fits 100% together like it is. And again, how many notice the deep and well controlled bass during the quiet beginning, and how well structured it is? I once played in a band where I played the song for the other guitarist, and asked him how he thought about the bass. He said he didn't hear it, and the song was 'utter crap'...

Then the band changed towards their more 'pop oriented' style, and the 'crazy' pieces seemed to to be put to the background, more or less. But if you followed the band from their early days, it's easy to recognize their playing habits, even though they are more like 'under the surface'.

A completely different thing is Mike's other band, 'Mike + Mechanics'. Appearently, his idea was to create a more mainstream oriented band, which I have found rather boring. No crazy parts, and I didn't like his choice of singers. It was like they didn't really fit in, something about the same as with Tony's solo efforts. An exception was 'Smallcreep's Day', his first solo album (not labeled as a Mechanics album). That one had a very special mood and some interesting work, also as a guitarist.

I do think Rutherford's style of bass playing is pretty unusual in the broader rock world. Not that there aren't lots of great, creative bass players throughout rock, but the idea of being sort of aggressively melodic and not just rounding out chords and keeping the rhythm is probably lost on a lot of rock fans.

With Mike + The Mechanics and even later Genesis (not altogether of course), I do wonder if Rutherford just decided from a commercial/airplay standpoint that underplaying would be better received by the broader listening public and gave up on more complex bass lines? M+M was clearly engineered for radio success. Yet I've wondered why later in life after that style was no longer popular why he hasn't felt the need to stretch himself out again playing wise. Not that I've heard a lot of later say Mike + The Mechanics, but what I have heard has been pretty vanilla adult contemporary stuff.

I will say I do really like the Living Years album. It's not totally just a pop fest, though it is all pretty mainstream sounding (for that time). His playing is pretty tame on that one though.

[Madman Shepherd]

I agree about Mike + The Mechanics. I wanted so bad to like them since I'm a huge fan of Rutherford's work in Genesis. I would still see them live in a heartbeat. They usually do Land of Confusion so that alone would be worth it.

Smallcreep's Day though, man....an absolute masterpiece if you ask me. Odd that Acting Very Strange was his followup which I like about as much as his other side projects.

[Silent Man]

I agree about Mike + The Mechanics. I wanted so bad to like them since I'm a huge fan of Rutherford's work in Genesis. I would still see them live in a heartbeat. They usually do Land of Confusion so that alone would be worth it.

Smallcreep's Day though, man....an absolute masterpiece if you ask me. Odd that Acting Very Strange was his followup which I like about as much as his other side projects.

I have Acting Very Strange on vinyl, think I'll play it again one of these days. But what I remember is that (unfortunately) he did all the singing himself. And he really doesn't have a voice. I had huge expectations after Smallcreep, and I must admit that Acting... was a bit of a letdown...

[HOF]

Ha...I'm not the only one who think 'Smallcreep's Day' is marvellous. Look at the comments on YT:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lg6FYXVFdI

I still need to track down a copy of this. Have heard good things about it.

[Lupton]

Just want to say that I'm very happy to see many posts of people praising Mike Rutherford's bass work.  That is all.