Genesis Appreciation/Discussion

[Stadler]

I'll bet I'm the only Genesis fan alive with this top 4:

1) And The. There Were Three
2) Wind And Wuthering
3) Abacab
4) A Trick Of The Tail

I think we've talked about this before, but Wind And Wuthering and Abacab are my number one and two.  I'll have to think about three and four (probably the Lamb and Duke). 

[jammindude]

I'll bet I'm the only Genesis fan alive with this top 4:

1) And The. There Were Three
2) Wind And Wuthering
3) Abacab
4) A Trick Of The Tail

2-4 aren't terribly unheard of.   But you're literally the only Genesis fan I've ever known to put ATTWT as a #1 all time favorite. 

[HOF]

I'll bet I'm the only Genesis fan alive with this top 4:

1) And The. There Were Three
2) Wind And Wuthering
3) Abacab
4) A Trick Of The Tail

You’re not the only Genesis fan who’s favorite period is the early Collins period at least. That middle box set from the 2007 reissues is my favorite of the three, even if I would probably still put Selling England and maybe Foxtrot in my top 5. Not totally sure what my top 5 would be, but I usually say Duke is my favorite.

I have recently (last 5 years or so) come to really enjoy And Then There Were Three. Listened to it the other day and it’s a great listen. Really love a couple of those tracks (Snowbound, Burning Rope, Deep in the Motherload, Follow You Follow Me). Have always been fond of Abacab. And I’d probably have one of Trick or Wind and Wuthering in consideration for a top 5 spot.

[DragonAttack]

I'll bet I'm the only Genesis fan alive with this top 4:

1) And The. There Were Three
2) Wind And Wuthering
3) Abacab
4) A Trick Of The Tail

2-4 aren't terribly unheard of.   But you're literally the only Genesis fan I've ever known to put ATTWT as a #1 all time favorite.

Add me to the list.  Abrams Planeterium at Michigan State would do laser light shows to albums for many years, and their sound system was to die for.  This album was my first visit, and I was slightly 'mood enhanced'   I do recall the 'stars' circling above, gradually building up speed, and then when the tempo changed, the stars would reverse direction.  The chairs didn't move, but some people actually fell off at those moments.

Purchased the vinyl the next day.

Duke, W&W, IT, and 'Selling England' are 2-5

[Stadler]

All of this is surprising to some degree; I have yet to see a Genesis album poll that didn't have Selling... as either one or two.   

[Orbert]

Abrams Planeterium at Michigan State would do laser light shows to albums for many years, and their sound system was to die for.  This album was my first visit, and I was slightly 'mood enhanced'   I do recall the 'stars' circling above, gradually building up speed, and then when the tempo changed, the stars would reverse direction.  The chairs didn't move, but some people actually fell off at those moments.

Purchased the vinyl the next day.

I went to a lot of the shows at Abrams, but I must have missed And Then There Were There.  Or maybe I did, but forgot.  Mood enhancement was always a factor in those days.  Anyway, that was my first Genesis album, and is still a fave.

[Silent Man]

I'll bet I'm the only Genesis fan alive with this top 4:

1) And The. There Were Three
2) Wind And Wuthering
3) Abacab
4) A Trick Of The Tail

I have a hard time with these rankings. One day I have a favorite, another day it has changed. That's why rankings will never work for me.

But one thing I agree about is that '..And Then There Were Three...' has gotten better and better with the years. And I especially enjoy Mike Rutherford's masterful playing. I call it discrete and elegant...even the 'pop' song 'Follow You Follow Me' gets inside me like never before. I'm not sure, but I think perhaps this is the first song where Mike introduced his signature 'tika-tok' playing style (sorry, can't describe it better, but I think you know what I mean). It might sound easy, but it's not.

[Zydar]

My ranking:

1. Selling England By The Pound
2. A Trick of The Tail
3. The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway
4. Foxtrot
5. Duke

I'm a sucker for the Peter Gabriel period in particular. Selling England will always be #1 for me.

[Stadler]

I'll bet I'm the only Genesis fan alive with this top 4:

1) And The. There Were Three
2) Wind And Wuthering
3) Abacab
4) A Trick Of The Tail

I have a hard time with these rankings. One day I have a favorite, another day it has changed. That's why rankings will never work for me.

But one thing I agree about is that '..And Then There Were Three...' has gotten better and better with the years. And I especially enjoy Mike Rutherford's masterful playing. I call it discrete and elegant...even the 'pop' song 'Follow You Follow Me' gets inside me like never before. I'm not sure, but I think perhaps this is the first song where Mike introduced his signature 'tika-tok' playing style (sorry, can't describe it better, but I think you know what I mean). It might sound easy, but it's not.

That's a good observation; whether you think it's No. 1 or not, I would think it's a less controversial statement to say that it's the "Mike Rutherford Guitar Album".    He's got moments on other records (Abacab, Genesis) but not as comprehensive.

[HOF]

Hmmm. I guess I think of Duke as a stronger Rutherford guitar effort (he shows up quite prominently in the first track). He has moments on ATTWT for sure, but for a while I think the absence of a strong lead guitarist was what held that album back for me. Follow You Follow Me does have a really great guitar part though, and burning rope has always gotten me.

[Orbert]

With ...and then there were three..., Mike had to step up.  He'd always played guitar in the band as well as bass, but this was the first album where he had to do both.  Also, as sole guitarist, he clearly wanted to show that he could fill the gap.  Maybe he's no Steve Hackett, but he takes some nice leads, and his sounds are very similar to Hackett's, and also to Anthony Phillips before him.  I like what he does here, as well as on the later albums.

What Genesis lost when they went three-piece was the acoustic side.  Those wonderful interludes with acoustic six- and 12-string guitars and Tony's piano.  And it's a bit confusing as well, because that was part of the Genesis sound before Hackett joined, so there was no real reason to lose it when he left.  Maybe it was a decision based more on the direction the band was going in at the time.

[Stadler]

With ...and then there were three..., Mike had to step up.  He'd always played guitar in the band as well as bass, but this was the first album where he had to do both.  Also, as sole guitarist, he clearly wanted to show that he could fill the gap.  Maybe he's no Steve Hackett, but he takes some nice leads, and his sounds are very similar to Hackett's, and also to Anthony Phillips before him.  I like what he does here, as well as on the later albums.

What Genesis lost when they went three-piece was the acoustic side.  Those wonderful interludes with acoustic six- and 12-string guitars and Tony's piano.  And it's a bit confusing as well, because that was part of the Genesis sound before Hackett joined, so there was no real reason to lose it when he left.  Maybe it was a decision based more on the direction the band was going in at the time.

I think you're right; it's the latter.  Between the increasing electronic presence of drums on the material, and the bigger venues they were playing, I think it just fell by the wayside.

The Musical Box, a popular Genesis "recreation", has a part* in their typical "Selling England By The Pound" setlist (the one they play most often) where "Steve", "Mike" and "Tony" are all playing acoustic guitar and watching that in a theater is just magical.    That's one of the few shows I go and just close my eyes and listen for about an hour and 45 minutes. 

* I can't remember if it's The Musical Box song, or Supper's Ready; I'm almost positive it's not The Cinema Show, though I'm not betting money on it.  All three songs feature Tony's guitar, and all three are in the set, so...

[emtee]

For me music has always been a conduit to memories. Some good, some awful. In the case of ATTWT, it was a first love situation and this album takes me there. The feelings and even, oddly enough, the smells. Her perfume is a direct tie to the album.

I just never connected with SEbtP or The Lamb in the same way, Although Fly On a Windsheild takes me somewhere every time.

[Madman Shepherd]

Their catalog is so vast and diverse, I don't know how anyone can rank their favorites. To me, when I listen to Invisible Touch, that's my favorite. When I listen to Trick of the Tail, that's my favorite. Foxtrot? Favorite. Shit, I even love Calling All Stations, although I guess I've never said it was my favorite, but there are times I feel like it gets close.

Basically, whatever I'm mood I'm in dictates what I listen to and love at that moment.

[HOF]

Their catalog is so vast and diverse, I don't know how anyone can rank their favorites. To me, when I listen to Invisible Touch, that's my favorite. When I listen to Trick of the Tail, that's my favorite. Foxtrot? Favorite. Shit, I even love Calling All Stations, although I guess I've never said it was my favorite, but there are times I feel like it gets close.

Basically, whatever I'm mood I'm in dictates what I listen to and love at that moment.

Yeah, I generally shy away from rankings for this reason. There are some albums or songs by certain bands that have had such an obvious impact on me that I consider them favorites, but trying to be objective about even my own subjective preferences is a seemingly impossible task.

It’s generally easier to identify the albums I don’t care for (The Lamb and Trespass), or which ones I think of less fondly than others (We Can’t Dance and Calling All Stations, which I still do like), than it is to say “I definitively like Wind & Wuthering better than Abacab or Nursery Cryme.”

[Silent Man]

Their catalog is so vast and diverse, I don't know how anyone can rank their favorites. To me, when I listen to Invisible Touch, that's my favorite. When I listen to Trick of the Tail, that's my favorite. Foxtrot? Favorite. Shit, I even love Calling All Stations, although I guess I've never said it was my favorite, but there are times I feel like it gets close.

Basically, whatever I'm mood I'm in dictates what I listen to and love at that moment.

I so much agree!

And Calling All Stations (what a dumb title) is a weird record. It's an example of a group losing their DNA when replacing a key member - in this case Phil Collins. They sound like another band, far from the Genesis I knew and loved. They got some excellent session drummers in it as well, but they can't catch the spirit of Genesis IMO. The singer tries to copy Peter Gabriel, but fails. What still makes me play it is Mike's guitar work and of course, Tony. When I heard it the first time, my immediate thought was that it sounded like one of Tony's solo efforts, which never did much for me, it was like he went from prog to pop, and not pop in the 'Genesis style', if it makes sense. Oh, whatever...

[HOF]

Their catalog is so vast and diverse, I don't know how anyone can rank their favorites. To me, when I listen to Invisible Touch, that's my favorite. When I listen to Trick of the Tail, that's my favorite. Foxtrot? Favorite. Shit, I even love Calling All Stations, although I guess I've never said it was my favorite, but there are times I feel like it gets close.

Basically, whatever I'm mood I'm in dictates what I listen to and love at that moment.

I so much agree!

And Calling All Stations (what a dumb title) is a weird record. It's an example of a group losing their DNA when replacing a key member - in this case Phil Collins. They sound like another band, far from the Genesis I knew and loved. They got some excellent session drummers in it as well, but they can't catch the spirit of Genesis IMO. The singer tries to copy Peter Gabriel, but fails. What still makes me play it is Mike's guitar work and of course, Tony. When I heard it the first time, my immediate thought was that it sounded like one of Tony's solo efforts, which never did much for me, it was like he went from prog to pop, and not pop in the 'Genesis style', if it makes sense. Oh, whatever...

There are some real high points on CAS: Uncertain Weather, The Dividing Line, There Must Be Some Other Way, One Man’s Fool. I also like the title track and Congo just fine for what they are. I don’t hate Shipwrecked or Not About Us even, though they don’t seem like Genesis songs. It does seem like a new project though more than a continuation of Genesis if that makes sense. Like Tony Banks and Rutherfords solo/side projects mixed.

There are also several strong tracks that didn’t make the album that would have really improved the final project, and they definitely missed an opportunity in picking Ray Wilson over David Longdon (Big Big Train) as the singer. I like Wilson to an extent, but Longdon would have given them a more charismatic voice who could pull off both the Collins and Gabriel material.

[Lupton]

Their catalog is so vast and diverse, I don't know how anyone can rank their favorites. To me, when I listen to Invisible Touch, that's my favorite. When I listen to Trick of the Tail, that's my favorite. Foxtrot? Favorite. Shit, I even love Calling All Stations, although I guess I've never said it was my favorite, but there are times I feel like it gets close.

Basically, whatever I'm mood I'm in dictates what I listen to and love at that moment.

I so much agree!

And Calling All Stations (what a dumb title) is a weird record. It's an example of a group losing their DNA when replacing a key member - in this case Phil Collins. They sound like another band, far from the Genesis I knew and loved. They got some excellent session drummers in it as well, but they can't catch the spirit of Genesis IMO. The singer tries to copy Peter Gabriel, but fails. What still makes me play it is Mike's guitar work and of course, Tony. When I heard it the first time, my immediate thought was that it sounded like one of Tony's solo efforts, which never did much for me, it was like he went from prog to pop, and not pop in the 'Genesis style', if it makes sense. Oh, whatever...

Calling All Stations is not as bad a record as many people make out. I agree that Mike and Tony definitely shine on this. Problem is, like you say, the missing DNA. A lot of the songs sound like over-produced demos. Like they really needed more thoughtful arranging with solid beginnings, middles, and ends. Instead they just seem to loop through the ideas presented until the obligatory fade out. Makes it sound like they couldn't figure out how to properly end any of the songs. 'The Dividing Line' has an actual ending, and it's one of the better tunes on the album. FWIW I like it more as a whole than We Can't Dance, even though there's a couple of songs on that album that are better than anything on CAS. Though I do consider 'Uncertain Weather' to be a solid tune worthy of anything Genesis ever did (IMHO of course).

However, I disagree with the notion that Ray Wilson is merely copying Gabriel. There are certainly some spots when his voice becomes more gravelly which evokes Gabriel, but for the most part to my ears he brings his own unique voice to the table. Though I did have to listen to the album a handful of times to arrive at that conclusion; as my 1st impression was he was aping Gabriel.

[Madman Shepherd]

Their catalog is so vast and diverse, I don't know how anyone can rank their favorites. To me, when I listen to Invisible Touch, that's my favorite. When I listen to Trick of the Tail, that's my favorite. Foxtrot? Favorite. Shit, I even love Calling All Stations, although I guess I've never said it was my favorite, but there are times I feel like it gets close.

Basically, whatever I'm mood I'm in dictates what I listen to and love at that moment.

Yeah, I generally shy away from rankings for this reason. There are some albums or songs by certain bands that have had such an obvious impact on me that I consider them favorites, but trying to be objective about even my own subjective preferences is a seemingly impossible task.

It’s generally easier to identify the albums I don’t care for (The Lamb and Trespass), or which ones I think of less fondly than others (We Can’t Dance and Calling All Stations, which I still do like), than it is to say “I definitively like Wind & Wuthering better than Abacab or Nursery Cryme.”

Yes, I agree. I can point to the ones I don't like either, Lamb being one of them, yet I saw the tribute band Musical Box perform 1/3 of their show with Lamb material and all of the sudden it clicked. So as my wife and I set out on a road trip we vowed to listen to the whole album. Halfway through we were pretty bored. We pulled out some live tracks and thought "This is what we were missing" and went back to the studio album and again got bored. Probably one of the weirdest albums ever made, and I listen to some weird stuff.

Their catalog is so vast and diverse, I don't know how anyone can rank their favorites. To me, when I listen to Invisible Touch, that's my favorite. When I listen to Trick of the Tail, that's my favorite. Foxtrot? Favorite. Shit, I even love Calling All Stations, although I guess I've never said it was my favorite, but there are times I feel like it gets close.

Basically, whatever I'm mood I'm in dictates what I listen to and love at that moment.

I so much agree!

And Calling All Stations (what a dumb title) is a weird record. It's an example of a group losing their DNA when replacing a key member - in this case Phil Collins.

That is an excellent way to put it and they have admitted as much. Phil was an excellent mediator even though he contributed the least musically for the majority of their career.

About this time Chester Thompson asked to become a full member and they turned him down. I often wonder what that would have looked like. He was eager to be a part of it and Ray Wilson was keen to sit back (as any young musician plucked for relative obscurity would have). I bet Chester could have played a somewhat important role in reining them in. Ah, the "what ifs" in life.

Also, there is a decent half-pro mix bootleg of their Poland show with Ray Wilson. It's pretty badass. I'm going to go on a limb here and say that Wilson actually does a better version of Carpet Crawlers than Collins or Gabriel. The rest he does a respectable job on too, although he can't match the other vocalist on any other songs.

Calling All Stations is not as bad a record as many people make out. I agree that Mike and Tony definitely shine on this. Problem is, like you say, the missing DNA. A lot of the songs sound like over-produced demos. Like they really needed more thoughtful arranging with solid beginnings, middles, and ends. Instead they just seem to loop through the ideas presented until the obligatory fade out. Makes it sound like they couldn't figure out how to properly end any of the songs.

Yes, the fade outs are the worst and very awkwardly placed!

[Lupton]

Their catalog is so vast and diverse, I don't know how anyone can rank their favorites. To me, when I listen to Invisible Touch, that's my favorite. When I listen to Trick of the Tail, that's my favorite. Foxtrot? Favorite. Shit, I even love Calling All Stations, although I guess I've never said it was my favorite, but there are times I feel like it gets close.

Basically, whatever I'm mood I'm in dictates what I listen to and love at that moment.

I so much agree!

And Calling All Stations (what a dumb title) is a weird record. It's an example of a group losing their DNA when replacing a key member - in this case Phil Collins. They sound like another band, far from the Genesis I knew and loved. They got some excellent session drummers in it as well, but they can't catch the spirit of Genesis IMO. The singer tries to copy Peter Gabriel, but fails. What still makes me play it is Mike's guitar work and of course, Tony. When I heard it the first time, my immediate thought was that it sounded like one of Tony's solo efforts, which never did much for me, it was like he went from prog to pop, and not pop in the 'Genesis style', if it makes sense. Oh, whatever...

There are some real high points on CAS: Uncertain Weather, The Dividing Line, There Must Be Some Other Way, One Man’s Fool. I also like the title track and Congo just fine for what they are. I don’t hate Shipwrecked or Not About Us even, though they don’t seem like Genesis songs. It does seem like a new project though more than a continuation of Genesis if that makes sense. Like Tony Banks and Rutherfords solo/side projects mixed.

There are also several strong tracks that didn’t make the album that would have really improved the final project, and they definitely missed an opportunity in picking Ray Wilson over David Longdon (Big Big Train) as the singer. I like Wilson to an extent, but Longdon would have given them a more charismatic voice who could pull off both the Collins and Gabriel material.

Sorry. Missed your post. Probably posted while I was typing mine.

I'm not as much a fan of the b-sides as many who like this album seem to be. I mean...there's a lot of them! Like 8 or 9? I can only think of one which I really like and felt it should have been on the album. I think it was 'Run Out of Time'. There may have been another one. I'll have to go back and revisit them at some point.

Cheers!

[HOF]

I'm not as much a fan of the b-sides as many who like this album seem to be. I mean...there's a lot of them! Like 8 or 9? I can only think of one which I really like and felt it should have been on the album. I think it was 'Run Out of Time'. There may have been another one. I'll have to go back and revisit them at some point.

Cheers!

The ones I like are the ones on the 2007 box set extra disc: Anything Now, Sign Your Life Away, and Run Out of Time.

[Madman Shepherd]

Those extra songs are hard as hell to find. I have the Congo single and those unreleased tracks don't do much for me. Shipwrecked and Not About Us singles are insanely expensive.

[HOF]

Listening to this ordering of CAS right now:

1. Calling All Stations
2. Congo
3. Shipwrecked
4. Anything Now*
5. Not About Us
6. The Dividing Line
7. Uncertain Weather
8. Sign Your Life Away*
9. Run Out of Time*
10. There Must Be Some Other Way
11. One Man’s Fool

I genuinely like all of these tracks, and I probably enjoy this collection of songs as much or more than We Can’t Dance.

[Orbert]

The Musical Box, a popular Genesis "recreation", has a part* in their typical "Selling England By The Pound" setlist (the one they play most often) where "Steve", "Mike" and "Tony" are all playing acoustic guitar and watching that in a theater is just magical.    That's one of the few shows I go and just close my eyes and listen for about an hour and 45 minutes. 

* I can't remember if it's The Musical Box song, or Supper's Ready; I'm almost positive it's not The Cinema Show, though I'm not betting money on it.  All three songs feature Tony's guitar, and all three are in the set, so...

The opening section of Supper's Ready has Steve and Mike on 12-strings, and Tony on 6-string (I'm pretty sure).  It's one of the few times they had three acoustic guitars in a song.  I'm not sure about The Musical Box (the song).  It sounds to me like guitar and keyboards doubled.

The 7/8 jam in Cinema Show is/was always performed as a trio (no vocals or guitar, so Peter and Steve left the stage) and the intro has guitar and electric piano, so it's not The Cinema Show.

[pg1067]

Anyone have knowledge of what Rutherford is playing in this video?  The top (shorter) neck is pretty clearly a 12-string guitar, but the bottom neck is longer, which suggests a bass, but it seems to have six machine heads.  I did a bit of googling but couldn't find anything.

[ytserush]

Watching Three Sides Live online for like the 5th of 6th time. Probably like the CD more because there is more music but I forgot about the incidental vignettes sprinkled throughout so that was cool to watch too, but I wish there was a version without that when I just want the music.  They were totally on fire.  Great balance of old and new. (I keep playing Abacab over and over again!)

Those cuts drive me crazy.  This is one of my favorite videos because of the music, but the editing makes me want to hurt someone.  Nowadays, they'd probably include the interviews and other stuff as "bonus material" on the DVD or Blu-ray, but back in the VHS era, this was how they did it.  I bought the Blu-ray, hoping that there was some kind of option to just watch the concert footage, but nope.  At least you can skip to the next segment.

Didn't recall it being that bad, but it was a very long time since I saw it. I thought there was more music. Those performances are great though. Duke,  Abacab, and Three Sides Live are probably my favorite tours.

[ytserush]

Yep, all of that sounds pretty familiar, and I agree with the complaints regarding The Song Remains the Same.  I happen to like the original CD version, but there's an obvious audio flaw during the keyboard solo in "No Quarter".  I assumed that they ("they" probably meaning Jimmy Page) would fix that, but instead they just used a different performance from a different night.  Crap.  I really like that solo; I just wanted to hear it fixed.

My two favorite Genesis periods are 1976 (the four-piece era) and early 80's (Three Sides Live).  And those are the two era almost devoid of decent video releases.

I really don't mind the way The Song Remains The Same was done because it fit in with the mystique of the band so they could get away with it.  The Genesis stuff while cool just broke up the flow of the music. With Zeppelin I really don't mind that as much and Genesis is probably the more consistent live band anyway.

[ytserush]

I'm not suggesting you read all of this (though I did when I ripped my Zeppelin to hard drive; I now have three versions to listen to!), but just the fact that it exists is fascinating to me. 

The Garden Tapes
www.thegardentapes.co.uk

Page clearly took a lot of time and effort to assemble all four versions of TSRTS (as well as the MSG material that made it onto the Led Zeppelin DVD) but with all that, it's STILL maddening that so many instances of seemingly "poor choices" exist.  I have to believe there's a reason for what was done - and we just don't know what it is - but some of those songs were utterly butchered if you believe this.   Black Dog, Heartbreaker, Dazed And Confused, Whole Lotta Love and Moby Dick are the obvious examples.

I remember reading that way back when. Probably goes to state of mind. What else could it be? Always thought he knew what he was doing with the Zep legacy. It makes me wonder.

[ytserush]

Someone turned me on to The Garden Tapes a few years back, and I read a bunch of it, including a lot of the ridiculous editing done to The Song Remains the Same.

I would always prefer a live album to be an actual, unedited recording of a live performance.  I used to think that it must be because I myself am a musician who lives for live performance.  I want to hear what they played, every note both good and bad.  But obviously Jimmy Page and many others are also musicians, and there are those who want to hear the "ideal" live performance.  If you could hear the song played live, perfectly, capturing all the excitement of a live performance, the sponaneity, the one-time moments of musical brilliance, wouldn't you want to hear that?  Well, sure.  That's what Jimmy seems to be striving for by editing two notes out of one performance and replacing them with those from another.  Completely removing a measure here or there that didn't work, and simply splicing the results together.  And so on.  I used to think that minor edits are probably okay, but at that point we're on the slippery slope.  If some edits are okay, why not others?  What is "minor"?  So okay, now I'm pretty much against any editing.  Give me the raw tapes.  Maybe that's part of what I liked about the original TSRTS recordings; that flaw in the keyboard solo reminded me that it's live and no one has messed with the recording.  Then I found out that that was edited to hell and back also.  So now I don't know what to think.  Live recordings aren't live.  Time, space, and life itself no longer have meaning.

I don't remember now what my point was going to be.

Maybe he was trying to play mad scientist with the tapes....

[ytserush]

Someone turned me on to The Garden Tapes a few years back, and I read a bunch of it, including a lot of the ridiculous editing done to The Song Remains the Same.

I would always prefer a live album to be an actual, unedited recording of a live performance.  I used to think that it must be because I myself am a musician who lives for live performance.  I want to hear what they played, every note both good and bad.  But obviously Jimmy Page and many others are also musicians, and there are those who want to hear the "ideal" live performance.  If you could hear the song played live, perfectly, capturing all the excitement of a live performance, the sponaneity, the one-time moments of musical brilliance, wouldn't you want to hear that?  Well, sure.  That's what Jimmy seems to be striving for by editing two notes out of one performance and replacing them with those from another.  Completely removing a measure here or there that didn't work, and simply splicing the results together.  And so on.  I used to think that minor edits are probably okay, but at that point we're on the slippery slope.  If some edits are okay, why not others?  What is "minor"?  So okay, now I'm pretty much against any editing.  Give me the raw tapes.  Maybe that's part of what I liked about the original TSRTS recordings; that flaw in the keyboard solo reminded me that it's live and no one has messed with the recording.  Then I found out that that was edited to hell and back also.  So now I don't know what to think.  Live recordings aren't live.  Time, space, and life itself no longer have meaning.

I don't remember now what my point was going to be.

I don't mean to hammer this point, but you're a musician, so maybe this will matter to you:   one of the things I love about Zeppelin was the chemistry, and particularly how certain songs breathed in time.   They were always in synch with each other, but the songs moved, breathed and had a sort of fluidity (to absolute time).  In my opinion, all that editing, taking out certain sections, bits and pieces, compromised that.  There are still moments (the original album, especially, is a much better album than it gets credit for) but I would love to have the full document of all three nights to enjoy, warts and all.   In many cases, it's the mistakes that make a performance, and it's important to know that.

Even in the best of times they were maddeningly inconsistent which I suppose is why I don't have too many of their live recordings.

They were just as likely to be amazing as they were to be very much off.

[ytserush]

I'll bet I'm the only Genesis fan alive with this top 4:

1) And The. There Were Three
2) Wind And Wuthering
3) Abacab
4) A Trick Of The Tail

2-4 aren't terribly unheard of.   But you're literally the only Genesis fan I've ever known to put ATTWT as a #1 all time favorite.

Probably rank it higher than anything with Gabriel, but for me that's not saying very much.

[Orbert]

Someone turned me on to The Garden Tapes a few years back, and I read a bunch of it, including a lot of the ridiculous editing done to The Song Remains the Same.

I would always prefer a live album to be an actual, unedited recording of a live performance.  I used to think that it must be because I myself am a musician who lives for live performance.  I want to hear what they played, every note both good and bad.  But obviously Jimmy Page and many others are also musicians, and there are those who want to hear the "ideal" live performance.  If you could hear the song played live, perfectly, capturing all the excitement of a live performance, the sponaneity, the one-time moments of musical brilliance, wouldn't you want to hear that?  Well, sure.  That's what Jimmy seems to be striving for by editing two notes out of one performance and replacing them with those from another.  Completely removing a measure here or there that didn't work, and simply splicing the results together.  And so on.  I used to think that minor edits are probably okay, but at that point we're on the slippery slope.  If some edits are okay, why not others?  What is "minor"?  So okay, now I'm pretty much against any editing.  Give me the raw tapes.  Maybe that's part of what I liked about the original TSRTS recordings; that flaw in the keyboard solo reminded me that it's live and no one has messed with the recording.  Then I found out that that was edited to hell and back also.  So now I don't know what to think.  Live recordings aren't live.  Time, space, and life itself no longer have meaning.

I don't remember now what my point was going to be.

Maybe he was trying to play mad scientist with the tapes....

It really sounds like it.  I think there's editing, and then there's obsessing, and Jimmy dove into the deep end.  After tweaking it a bit, he found other stuff he could fix.  So he fixed those things, listened again, found some more things.  He knew he could fix all these things, but he didn't stop to think if he should.

[ytserush]

Their catalog is so vast and diverse, I don't know how anyone can rank their favorites. To me, when I listen to Invisible Touch, that's my favorite. When I listen to Trick of the Tail, that's my favorite. Foxtrot? Favorite. Shit, I even love Calling All Stations, although I guess I've never said it was my favorite, but there are times I feel like it gets close.

Basically, whatever I'm mood I'm in dictates what I listen to and love at that moment.

It's might be easier for me to rank when it comes to Genesis (I like Calling All Stations as well.), but what you describe is how I feel about Rush. It's a totally useless exercise for me to rank them.  Ranking things really doesn't do a lot. As you said, you just enjoy them.

[KevShmev]

It doesn't have anything as awesome as The Cinema Show or Firth of Fifth, but I honestly think that A Trick of the Tail is their best and most consistent album at this point in time.  None of the songs would be in my Genesis top 5, but probably 5-6 of them would be in that 6-20 range. 

[HOF]

It doesn't have anything as awesome as The Cinema Show or Firth of Fifth, but I honestly think that A Trick of the Tail is their best and most consistent album at this point in time.  None of the songs would be in my Genesis top 5, but probably 5-6 of them would be in that 6-20 range.

I tend to think of Los Endos as one of those signature Genesis moments up there with stuff like Cinema Show or Firth of Fifth. It’s one of my favorite instrumental tracks (by anyone).