Genesis Appreciation/Discussion

[jsbru]

Just listened to "Duke" for the second time today while going for a walk.  The first time I listened to it, it was a little much and I couldn't digest it all at once.  This time around, my mind was blown.  I really like this "in between" progressive/pop sound.  Invisible Touch is one of my favorite albums of all time despite its poppiness (the B-side is still pretty progressive though), but I feel like Duke could be right up there with a few more listens.  It's the best "new" album I've heard in a long time.

I think the Gabriel Genesis albums are a little over the top for me.  Too much farting around.  I'll have to check out the other albums post-Gabriel but pre-Invisible Touch.

[Orbert]

Duke is my favorite Genesis album.  I think overall, I like the five-piece band, but while I don't consider any of it "farting around", I think I know what you mean.  There was definitely a lot more experimentation, and with experimentation thiings can be hit or miss.  It's the misses the bring things down a bit overall.  The three-piece band, and even the four-piece, were very consistent IMO.  Duke for me is the best of both worlds.  Solid, concise, but also kinda proggy and not blatantly poppy either.

[jsbru]

Not to take away too much from the Gabriel-era Genesis, because there are some spectacular moments, but their early 70s stuff, more than any other prog band, seem to meander and have parts where you're just thinking..."where is this going?"

One of the reasons Yes is my second-favorite all-time band is that they are able to keep their focus and keep their songs from aimless musical wandering (Tales of Topographic Oceans notwithstanding), yet still write long and incredibly complex pieces.  Genesis seems to get better at this later on.  I really like Genesis's 80's sound a lot better than Yes, but if we're talking about the 70's I much prefer Yes.  But I haven't yet got a chance to listen to Wind & Wuthering, Trick of the Tail, or And Then There Were Three...

[snowdog]

Definitely check out W&W and TotT.  ATTWT is probably my least favorite of the 70s.  It has some good moments no doubt.  But there are several songs on there that are not that strong.  They were definitely trying to find their feet as a 3 piece I think.  I wouldn't say Duke is my favorite Genesis album but it is hands down better than anything that came after it (and I do like a lot of the 80s stuff too).  Off the top of my head I would rank Duke at #5 with the run of Selling England through W&W above it (not in that order).  They are all solid albums though.

[SoundscapeMN]

found a rare if not 1-of-a-kind Steve Keene interpretive painting of the cover of Trespass over the weekend at the local haven (store) Cheapo. Looks awesome hanging on a hook from my ceiling. I wonder if Steve has done many other Genesis covers (among others. Cheapo has a lot of his Beatles and Zeppelin interpretive covers on their wall for sale).

[rumborak]

Duke is my favorite Genesis album.  I think overall, I like the five-piece band, but while I don't consider any of it "farting around", I think I know what you mean.  There was definitely a lot more experimentation, and with experimentation thiings can be hit or miss.  It's the misses the bring things down a bit overall.  The three-piece band, and even the four-piece, were very consistent IMO.  Duke for me is the best of both worlds.  Solid, concise, but also kinda proggy and not blatantly poppy either.

Absolutely, Duke is a masterpiece in merging the two worlds of prog and pop. I think it's the first album of the second-generation Genesis (i.e. the "Phil Collins Genesis"), but the prog hadn't become as subdued as in later albums.

[jsbru]

The only complaint I have about Duke is that "Misunderstanding" doesn't really fit in with where it shows up in the album.  It's a good song, but sound-wise, it's kind of inconsistent where it is if you're listening to the whole album.  They should have stuck it either at the beginning or the end, and made the Duke suite more continuous.

[ddtonfire]

The only complaint I have about Duke is that "Misunderstanding" doesn't really fit in with where it shows up in the album.  It's a good song, but sound-wise, it's kind of inconsistent where it is if you're listening to the whole album.  They should have stuck it either at the beginning or the end, and made the Duke suite more continuous.

There must be some misunderstanding here.

[Orbert]

Originally, they had the Duke suite and the six other songs.  Since they'd already done the "epic" (Supper's Ready) and didn't want to invite direct comparisons, they decided to break it up.  So it opens and closes the album, and "Turn It On Again" originally opened Side Two.  They arranged the remaining songs so that they formed a rough narrative.  The album isn't really a concept album, but they knew that their fans would try to make it one (ha ha) so the track order was to create a story as best they could from the pieces they had.

"Misunderstanding" appears where it does for that reason.  Duke's relationship issues more or less parallel some of the problems Phil Collins was having at the time.

[rumborak]

Well, part of the Genesis listening experience is to sit through Phil Collins' whiny songs I mean, the guy wrote sooo many whiny break-up/love songs, it's not even funny.

Misunderstanding
Your own special way
Taking It All Too Hard
Throwing It All Away
Since I Lost You
This Must Be Love
I Missed Again
I Cannot Believe It's True
You Can't Hurry Love
Don't Let Him Steal Your Heart Away
Why Can't It Wait Til Morning
I Don't Wanna Know
One More Night .....

.....

[Orbert]

Your Own Special Way was Mike Rutherford
Taking It All Too Hard is credited to Genesis, but was mostly Tony Banks
You Can't Hurry Love is an old Motown staple

The rest of those... yeah.

[rumborak]

Yeah, I was really just going through the albums and picking every love/whiny song

While he was actually alright in Genesis, once he did solo stuff, his whiny songs got out of control. Some albums are half just love songs.

[Orbert]

Yeah, I was really just going through the albums and picking every love/whiny song

That's what I figured.  For a long time, I thought Your Own Special Way was written by Phil, too.

While he was actually alright in Genesis, once he did solo stuff, his whiny songs got out of control. Some albums are half just love songs.

Also true.  Without the other guys to keep him in check, he went nuts.  But art reflects life, and his personal life has been shitty for quite a while, especially in the love department.  Also, whiny love songs sell.

[jsbru]

Also, whiny love songs sell.

Yeah.  For a lot of people, life is one whiny, dramatic love song after the other.  Validating these feelings is an incredibly good way to market music. 

[jsbru]

I've listened to this two more times since I posted.  I think Heathaze is my favorite.  It's like a musical orgasm at the end of "Side A."

And not to be outdone, right after, we get "turn it on again." 

Joking aside, there's some really cool key changes in Heathaze.  I tried soloing over it and was instantly perplexed.  You can't just bang away at the same scale like most rock songs.

B major/mixolydian to D major/mixolydian...and then the cool part, Eb minor.  Then back to B and then B minor.  It will keep you on your toes.  This song is so good, I wish there was like an extended solo section or something.  If I ever played it live, I'd try and add my own.  It would be a great opportunity for piano, too.

[Orbert]

"Heathaze" is one of my favorite Genesis songs, and probably my favorite from Duke.  This was the first CD I ever bought, and I was thinking of "Heathaze" when I chose it.

[ytserush]

Watching this concert right now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbNo14hMuU8

Just plain amazing.

Got this on DVD. 1976 to 1984 has always been my favorite era and this is but one example why.

[ytserush]

Yeah, I was really just going through the albums and picking every love/whiny song

That's what I figured.  For a long time, I thought Your Own Special Way was written by Phil, too.

While he was actually alright in Genesis, once he did solo stuff, his whiny songs got out of control. Some albums are half just love songs.

Also true.  Without the other guys to keep him in check, he went nuts.  But art reflects life, and his personal life has been shitty for quite a while, especially in the love department.  Also, whiny love songs sell.

I bailed after his first two solo albums. Though I'll admit to owning his 12 inch mix CD.

[Lolzeez]

Face Value is the only album I can listen to without skipping one song. And I rarely listen to that.

[ddtonfire]

I don't care how whiny some of his stuff may be, I love Phil's solo career.

[Orbert]

Face Value was sweet, and I still listen to it sometimes.  Hello, I Must Be Going also has some great stuff.  What was after that, No Jacket Required?  I think that's when I decided to move on.  Not horrible, but he was already starting to load them up with commercial crap, rather than stretching out and doing musically experimental stuff like "The West Side".

[rumborak]

The first two solo albums are brilliant. One aspect he lost over the years was that of creepy music. He was so good at it (In the air tonight, Thru these walls) but then just stopped.

[Unlegit]

I liked the majority of Phil's solo work, but then again, I also enjoyed Genesis' "pop" period.

[jsbru]

Not to sound like a broken record, but my god do I like Duke.  I'm on close to my 10th listen.  I can't get enough...gets better every time.

I also kind of dig Trick of the Tail, but it's merely above average compared to the other prog masterpieces I like.  ATTWT and W&W were decent, but didn't grab me yet.  The rest of Genesis (the Gabriel era, and post-Duke (minus Invisible Touch) I just don't get into as much.  IOW, Duke and IT really stand out to me, but most of their other stuff is just okay by prog standards.

Wish they could get back together, but that doesn't seem like it will ever happen.  No chance of me ever seeing them live... 

[Lolzeez]

Just watched a concert with Ray Wilson.



Bloody hell, that was awful.

[ytserush]

Just watched a concert with Ray Wilson.



Bloody hell, that was awful.

Haven't seen a gig, but I really didn't think the album was that bad. I still listen to it a few times a year.

[Cable]

Well shoot. That did not last long

"Phil Collins considering a return to music?"

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2013/nov/28/phil-collins-making-return-to-music-genesis

This may deserve its own thread, or go in Phil's thread. But considering I'm guessing *most* of care more about the Genesis factor. I will just say it, on the super slim chance it happens; the primary five or bust. The chemistry between the three is great and all, but we had a lot of that including the last reunion.

[SomeoneLikeHim]

  I'm not sure what to think about this. As you say it probably isn't going to happen. I would totally go if it did happen though and they came here!

[Cable]

I'm not sure what to think about this. As you say it probably isn't going to happen. I would totally go if it did happen though and they came here!

I honestly think it is all on Peter, like last time. Frankly I'm kind of bitter still about it. I mean just do three-four concerts of the Lamb and other songs, record them all and call it a day. If one was in the US, I would attempt to travel there, cuz it would be that cool.

[KevShmev]

Musicians retire and unretire all the time, so this doesn't surprise me.

But as much as I love the music of Genesis, especially classic Genesis with the classic lineup of five, I have little to no interest in them getting together.  I remember seeing footage of the reunion tour from years ago, and Phil Collins' voice struggled to sing most of the material, and he is older now.  And Peter Gabriel is up there, too, and wouldn't have a prayer of doing justice to most of that material he originally sang in the early 70s. 

[Orbert]

The one thing that might get him up on stage again is his kids.  That actually makes perfect sense.  It doesn't matter what you do, if you get tired of it, or feel you can't do it, or don't see the point anymore, then money won't get you to do it again, and your manager or other people won't get you to do it.  But yours kids asking you to do it very well could.

[Cable]

Well, if cows fly and Peter gives it a go, they would tune down and what not like they did in 2007... just the nature of aging vocalists.

I know the performance wouldn't be true to the original and whatever. I think the Lamb could have been much better with instrumentation, mainly Hackett really being a fifth wheel. I prefer the archives performances/studio doctoring compared to the studio Lamb. I enjoy CC 99' because Hackett had more presence, and with how he has reimagined a fair amount of the songs since, I'm curious how all would sound together. I think CC 99' was lower anyway, and I still enjoyed it.

[sneakyblueberry]

Peter's voice has aged considerably better than Phil's though, right?  It doesn't say anything about Phil being able to play drums again so that adds even more doubt to a Gabriel-led Genesis reunion.

[SoundscapeMN]

Trey Anastasio has approached Peter Gabriel to perform The Lamb on more than 1 occasion, for 1 of Phish's special Halloween shows. He's decided that Phish won't perform The Lamb unless it's with Gabriel, but Gabriel has said a lot of the music on The Lamb he's not able to sing now (mainly since he was barely able to when they recorded it and on the subsequent tour, but the other guys in the band insisted his vocals be how they ended up. Namely, the higher-pitched stuff).

So, a reunion with Gabriel to do The Lamb seems even that much more unlikely.

[CrimsonE]

I consider myself fortunate to have seen the 2007 reunion tour in Columbus, OH--and I drove six miles from Knoxville, TN to see that show.  Thus, the news of another reunion doesn't excite me as much--unless perhaps PG were involved.  The big question would be whether Phil's back could handle a tour.  I'm in my 40's with back problems, so I can only dread what being in your 60's with back problems will do to you.