The Savatage Thread

[jjrock88]

Savatage, it's time to cut the shit and make a decision

[Nick]

I only casually follow this band, and I know it can be really tough, but at this point I REALLY think fans need to just assume it's all over.

Just go full out with that, and if anything ever does happen, it'll just be a nice turn of events.

[wolfking]

I only casually follow this band, and I know it can be really tough, but at this point I REALLY think fans need to just assume it's all over.

Just go full out with that, and if anything ever does happen, it'll just be a nice turn of events.

While you are 100% correct, when TSO, Jon Oliva's Pain/solo, CIIC, Chris Caffery solo are all still very very active, I think that's where the frustration and hope from the fans come.

I personally don't think we'll see a full blown reunion and album, and am not expecting it, it certainly is a bit of a waste IMO.

[The Dark Master]

Yeah, when they just played their first show in 13 years, it seems like an odd time to assume it's over, especially when the band members are still saying there may be more concerts similar to what ahppened at Wacken.  If there was a time to give up on a Savatage reunion, it would have been back in 2007-2010, when Jon Oliva was saying it would never happen.

I honestly am not expecting a new album or anything like that.  If it happens, great, but given how much time and effort those guys already have committed to recording TSO records, I highly doubt it would ever happen.  And I am not expecting Savatage to go out on a tour full of club dates like they did back in the old days.

But a TSO non-holiday tour with a Savatage set, featuring members of Savatage?  That I think is definitely in the cards.  They've been talking about such a thing since the 2011 Beethoven's Last Night tour, and they have increasingly been bringing more Savatage songs into their sets over the last few years.  So i can certainly see them doing something like that.

[abydos]

If they won't release a DVD out of Wacken, I have absolutely no hope of anything coming out of them other than some best of-s. It seemed like a good way to put Savatage to rest with this show.

[The Dark Master]

I kind of get the feeling that Jon and Paul are excessively perfectionist when it comes to live albums.  I mean, in the entire 20 years Savatage was active, there were only two live albums (Japan Live '94 and Final Bell/Ghost in the Ruins), the first of which had a corresponding live video.  There was another live album (Live Devastation) from the GB tour that was fully completed, but never got released, save for a few promo copies (which were then heavily bootlegged).  Consider the fact that the band also records pretty much everything TSO has ever done, and yet, TSO are going on 20 years themselves and there has not been a single TSO live album/video. 

For whatever reason, they seem to have incredibly high standards for their live releases to the point that almost nothing ever get released.   They probably only let  Final Bell/Ghost in the Ruins out because they felt they needed to do some kind of tribute to Criss.  I honestly don't know how Japan Live '94 saw the light of day though.  It's a great live album/video to be sure, but I can't see what makes it so much better then the plethora of bootlegged Savatage vids I've seen over the years from other tours.  Maybe because it was the final show for the HOR tour, so it was sort of like the end of an era?  I dunno, but that's the best reason I can come up with...

BTW, I edited the setlist from Wacken on the last page.  All the songs were correct, but a few of them were out of order.

[Deathless]

I've been listening to Streets today, and I've always wondered why this band didn't get bigger than they did. They were on Atlantic Records, even without selling a Platinum or Gold album. Did they headline most of their own tours, or ever support a bigger band? I think it would have been awesome to see a band like Savatage in the early 90's with Queensryche, for example.

[Cyclopssss]

Yeah, coincidentally, I lucked out and bought Streets for 5 euro´s a couple of weeks ago. What a great album. Streets was huge in my opinion. I used to see a clip of one of the songs on MTV Headbanger´s Ball all the time. Wonder why they didn´t make it bigger than they did. 

[The Dark Master]

I'm going to do an in depth analysis of why Savatage was never able to break big throughout their careers in the Savatage Discography thread, but as far as the Streets era specifically goes, I think part of it was just bad timing, seeing as the album came out right before the gunge explosion.  The record was very heavy on power ballads at a time when power ballads became passé.  Beyond that, though, Jon also blew his voice out on that tour, so the promotion for that album was cut somewhat short due to Jon having to step down as lead singer.  Between the rise of grunge and Jon losing his voice, the band wasn't really in a position to give the album the big push it needed. 

At least the video for "Jesus Saves" actually did surprisingly well on MTV, given the circumstances.  A second video was shot for "NYC Don't Mean Nothing", but was subsequently lost and never aired.  Thanks to Jesus Saves, the band managed to remain at least successful enough to keep going, but the timing just wasn't there for them in that moment to break big.  A damn shame, too, since that record is one of the finest ever made.

[jjrock88]

Streets is an amazing album but I just don't see much mainstream appeal with it

[Big Hath]

Streets is an amazing album but I just don't see much mainstream appeal with it

ditto

[abydos]

I think part of the reason Savatage didn't enjoy the success Queensryche did is Jon's voice. While I love it to bits, it can be a turn off for a lot of people I"ve recommended the band to over the years. Some eventually grow to like it, some don't.

[SoundscapeMN]

I've always preferred Zak's voice to Jon's.

[erwinrafael]

I've always preferred Zak's voice to Jon's.

Imagine Jon singing All That I Bleed. 

[The Dark Master]

He sings on the acoustic version, and I've heard him sing the song live.  It actually comes across pretty well, and it really helps to illustrate the stylistic continuity from Streets to Edge of Thorns that I think is sometimes overlooked due to the change of singers.  I think it's worth noting that pretty much all the songs on Edge of Thorns and Handful of Rain were originally written for Jon's voice, so those songs still sound pretty natural with him on vocals, and he plays them live with JOP regularly.  I do still prefer Zaks voice on a lot of those songs, but I think Jon can to them justice.

As for Jon's voice being one of reasons Savatage was not able to break big, yeah, I think there is a bit of that, too.  In a few months, after I do my write-up for Poets and Madmen in the discography thread, I'm going to explore in depth why I think Savatage failed to attain mainstream success, so I will discuss that a bit more thoroughly when the time comes.  For now, I will simply agree that during the Gutter Ballet and Streets era, Jon's vocal style was one factor (among others) that probably did hold the band back a bit from getting bigger then they were.

[Deathless]

We'll keep it short, but based on the comments here would the band have been bigger if Zak joined before HOTMK or GB?

[The Dark Master]

We'll keep it short, but based on the comments here would the band have been bigger if Zak joined before HOTMK or GB?

To be honest, I don't think Zak's voice would have help much on the pre-HOTMK materiel, or even on HOTMK itself.  A lot of the music on those records was really not suited to his voice (I've commented before on how the band cut back considerably on pre-EoT songs during the EoT and HoR tours most likely for that reason).

Now on Gutter Ballet and Streets, I do think his voice could have helped somewhat with the commercial appeal of those records.  I've always loved his rendition of "Jesus Saves" ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTr-tgzcWaI ) and he sings the ballads from that era very well ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKqBNvKJLK8 ).  A lot of those songs were pure magic songwriting wise, and given how much airplay "Edge of Thorns" got (and this was in 93, after grunge hit), it does indeed make me wonder if the band could have gotten bigger during the 89-92 period with Zak at the helm.

That being said, though, there are some songs from that era that are quintessentially Jon's.  I have a very hard time hearing "Believe" sung by anyone but him.  Even the TSO version from Night Castle just sounds a bit off to my ears without Jon on the mic.

[Calvin6s]

Jon Oliva has so much more character and depth to his singing.  I shudder in horror thinking about if the all time classics Gutter Ballet and Streets were recorded with Zak.  And I clicked on the '94 live version and it only confirmed it.  Also confirmed that while Skolnick did a great job on Handful of Rain, Criss was the guitar of Savatage.  Criss and Jon had so much depth to their respective parts of the Savatage sound.

It is also why I'd probably get excited about a new Savatage album, I'd more than likely be disappointed.

[The Dark Master]

For what it's worth, I personally would not change a thing as far as who sang on what album in Savatage (except for Poets and Madmen, cause I really wanted to hear an album that was split 50/50 between Jon and Zak).  Jon was the original voice, and he was perfect for what the band was doing in the 80's and into the early 90's.  That being said, I do feel that the band had gone about as far as they could have with only his voice on Streets.  While they hypothetically could have just continued on with a more metal sound once Jon got his voice back, Jon, Criss and Paul had grander ambitions for where they wanted to the band to go musically.  Part of that vision necessitated bringing in a new voice, at first to fill in for Jon while his voice healed, and then later to work in tandem with his own to expand their sound.  Jon was, and still is, a damn versatile singer, but even he has his limits.  Bringing in a singer like Zak, who was about as different from Jon as could be, added a whole new element to their music, and set the stage for what they would later do with multiple singers in TSO,

[jjrock88]

I think P&M would have benefited with a 50/50 split as well

[abydos]

I don't know, I absolutely love Poets and Madmen. I'd put it on the same level as Gutter Ballet, personally. Jon is amazing in it and as much as I like Zak as well, I just can't imagine it being better with 50% less Jon in it.

[wolfking]

P&M is perfect the way it is.  I personally am happy Zak isn't on that one.

I just can't imagine it being better with 50% less Jon in it.

No way, it wouldn't be, it's made for Jon, the whole damn thing.

[The Dark Master]

Technically speaking, only a little over half the album was written for Jon, since the whole thing was supposed to be split between Jon and Zak.  The songs that made it to the final album were basically the songs that Jon felt still sounded good with just his voice.  Consequently, one or two songs (including the title track) were cut, and "Stay With Me Awhile"  was added at the last minute.  (Almost literally; a mere month before the album was released, the official track-listing contained only 10 tracks, before "Stay With Me Awhile" was added.)  The song "The Nonsensical Ravings of a Lunatic Mind" from the first JOP record was actually one of the lost tracks from P&M, possibly the title track, presumably drastically re-written.  Even a lot of the songs to make the album proper were allegedly rearranged for Jon's voice.  To what extent, though, I'm not sure, although I believe "Morphine Child", "The Rumor", and "Back to a Reason" were supposed to be, primarily Zak songs, while some of the other tracks, like "Drive", were supposed to have dual lead vocals.

I have mixed feelings about the whole thing.  On the one hand, Jon does sing the whole record very well, and I do greatly enjoy the final track-list.  I cannot imagine the record without "Stay With Me Awhile".  On the other hand though, I would be very interested to have heard those lost tracks, and based on the live performances that were done with Damon Jiniya, many of those songs would have sounded very good with split vocals.  At the very least, I wish they had at least recorded some of Zak's vocal parts, since they ended up using dual vocals on the tour anyways.  And I do think that moving forward with the album without Zak was a huge mistake, although my reasons for that have less to do with quality of the record itself and more to do with how I feel Zak's departure and a new round of line-up changes might have lead to Jon's disillusionment with Savatage.  But I will go into that in a few months in the Discography thread...

[wolfking]

I didn't know that info about P&M.  Your sure know your Savatage DM.

[erwinrafael]

He sings on the acoustic version, and I've heard him sing the song live.  It actually comes across pretty well, and it really helps to illustrate the stylistic continuity from Streets to Edge of Thorns that I think is sometimes overlooked due to the change of singers.  I think it's worth noting that pretty much all the songs on Edge of Thorns and Handful of Rain were originally written for Jon's voice, so those songs still sound pretty natural with him on vocals, and he plays them live with JOP regularly.  I do still prefer Zaks voice on a lot of those songs, but I think Jon can to them justice.

You know what, I am taking back what I said. Jon Oliva could sing All That I Bleed well, and it's my fault that I did not look for this version.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyyHhpYsX8g

I always mention All That I Bleed because that song just really resonates with me. It's one of the songs that genuinely makes me sad when I hear it. Especially as they used to play it to give tribute to Criss.

[abydos]

Morphine Child and The Rumor are one of my favourite Jon performances on this album, so I'm glad that turned out the way it did. And yeah, Stay With Me  Awhile is fucking amazing.

[Calvin6s]

You know what, I am taking back what I said. Jon Oliva could sing All That I Bleed well, and it's my fault that I did not look for this version.

I honestly thought you were fully aware of the version and were being snarky.

Criss is one of those deaths that still don't feel real to me even after a couple of decades.  He was something very special.  When you pick up a guitar and play his stuff it just feels so on.  The musicality is off the charts.

[bl5150]

You know what, I am taking back what I said. Jon Oliva could sing All That I Bleed well, and it's my fault that I did not look for this version.

I honestly thought you were fully aware of the version and were being snarky.

Criss is one of those deaths that still don't feel real to me even after a couple of decades.  He was something very special.  When you pick up a guitar and play his stuff it just feels so on.  The musicality is off the charts.

I agree...............I still have the Gutter Ballet tab book around somewhere which I have seen go for hundreds on Ebay

One of the many things I loved about his playing was the sudden rhythm changes taking a song somewhere else entirely like at the end of songs like Hounds and Follow Me.

As far as vocalists go ..........I will always love Edge of Thorns and select songs off the rest but Jon will always be the  voice of Savatage to me.  He has a polarising tone but the ability to convincingly do the softer stuff and the maniacal metal is not something many can pull off.  And that's why I love Gutter Ballet so much as it's such a great mix of the two.

[Deathless]

There is something really unique about Criss's playing that I just can't put my finger on. On so many songs he had the amazing ability to drive the music without being overpowering. It was really tasteful. I don't know how to explain it fully but I thought about while listening to EOT in the car today.

[erwinrafael]

You know what, I am taking back what I said. Jon Oliva could sing All That I Bleed well, and it's my fault that I did not look for this version.

I honestly thought you were fully aware of the version and were being snarky.

No, I just imagined Gutter Ballet Jon singing All That I Bleed. My bad. 

[wolfking]

There is something really unique about Criss's playing that I just can't put my finger on. On so many songs he had the amazing ability to drive the music without being overpowering. It was really tasteful. I don't know how to explain it fully but I thought about while listening to EOT in the car today.

Every bit of lead work he did had it's place in the song.  He had such a creative flow with his soloing but nothing ever sounded overstated or left the listener thinking that it was uneccesary.  His work always complimented the song, and his note choices and phrasing really made his solos sing and memorable.

His shred moments always went with the song too, like Follow Me or He Carves His Stone, his leads reach climax just like the songs themselves do, always at the perfect times.  Then in songs like Tonight He Grins Again, such a mellow moody piece, where he'll just do a couple of fills here and there to build the atmosphere, but for some reason, it's perfect and doesn't need any extra noodling whatsoever. 

He was just a brilliant and underrated guitarist.

[abydos]

Jon's lower register is one of the best. It sounds so deep and powerful, even when sung in a mellow way. It's like feeling a loud bass at a concert rocking your insides up.  And on the other hand you got those demonic shrieks and him utilizing his voice so well and fitting.

It's always been a dream of mine to hear him on an Ayreon album.

[The Dark Master]

Some pro-shot footage from the Wacken show made it's way to youtube:

Dead Winter Dead: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVMQkpdip8o

24 Hours Ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLxF6Fl-h9w

[wolfking]

Amazing performances, wow.  Jon sounds fucking incredible too.  Caffery always does Criss' work proud too.

[bl5150]

Yeah it does sound good........although I wonder how long Jon would last singing like that on a tour.  And the amount of smoke etc....would make it hard to produce a quality DVD it seems to me.  That footage looks good but I am not sure it is "release quality".   We'd buy it though