Ayreon/Arjen Lucassen Thread (Star Three on the way)

[KevShmev]

The Theory Of Everything is absolutely amazing, regardless of what KevShmev thinks.

Let's hope my listen later this week demonstrates that you are correct and I was wrong all along. 

[KevShmev]

Meanwhile, an updated listen of Flight of the Migrator resulted in the same reaction I've always had to it: pretty good album, but not a whole lot on there is special.  He definitely used all of his best stuff for the Universal Migrator series on The Dream Sequencer.  The first half of To the Quasar is still totally bad ass (with the second half good), for sure though.

[ErHaO]

TTOE is my shared fave (with THE) and it was my fave a while before the THE liveshow. But I really get why some people just can't get into it, especially in terms of structure (a lot of small tracks and moments) and the (even) more dialouge-esque singing than most of his albums.



Also, out of curiosity I looked at some metrics beyond Spotify and on Deezer and Apple Music The Source dominates the popular track lists. Not that I want to make the argument that most listened=best or anything (it is not when you have my taste at least). But on most platforms (all?) it is the most listened to 4 years post release.

[Adami]

I guess I need to give TToE another shot. I don't usually listen to whole albums in a sitting, so this album was always hard for me since I never want to hear 1-2 minutes of a 24 minute song on shuffle, which is how I mostly listen to music. I don't remember loving many of the melodies or lyrics either, but I'll give it a full spin sometime soon to re-examine that.

[Kwyjibo]

Meanwhile, an updated listen of Flight of the Migrator resulted in the same reaction I've always had to it: pretty good album, but not a whole lot on there is special.  He definitely used all of his best stuff for the Universal Migrator series on The Dream Sequencer.  The first half of To the Quasar is still totally bad ass (with the second half good), for sure though.

Again I completely disagree 

Flight Of The Migrator has a lot of excellent songs, the best being Chaos, Dawn Of A Million Souls, To The Quasar, Into The Black Hole and a lot of good ones. Only Into The Wormhole is weaker imo.

The Dream Sequencer on the other hand is solid but has very few standout tracks.

In my ranking FOTM is near the top and TDS near the bottom.

[jingle.boy]

The Theory Of Everything is absolutely amazing, regardless of what KevShmev thinks.

Let's hope my listen later this week demonstrates that you are correct and I was wrong all along. 

I doubt it.

Kwiji, on the other hand, has it right with Flight of the Migrator - particularly on the rankings. 

I guess I need to give TToE another shot. I don't usually listen to whole albums in a sitting, so this album was always hard for me since I never want to hear 1-2 minutes of a 24 minute song on shuffle, which is how I mostly listen to music. I don't remember loving many of the melodies or lyrics either, but I'll give it a full spin sometime soon to re-examine that.

^This guy gets it.

[425]

I guess I need to give TToE another shot. I don't usually listen to whole albums in a sitting, so this album was always hard for me since I never want to hear 1-2 minutes of a 24 minute song on shuffle, which is how I mostly listen to music. I don't remember loving many of the melodies or lyrics either, but I'll give it a full spin sometime soon to re-examine that.

My challenge with Ayreon in generally is that I do not think Arjen is a particularly good lyricist. I think he does best when he's dealing with abstract topics, and worst when he tries to write realistic dialogue. And TToE has so much dialogue that is sung in a way that makes very clear the fact that it's dialogue, and the tracks are structured around being short sections of dialogue in a musical rather than being complete, individual songs with lyrics. I can't really ignore it when, oh, here's Marco Hietala singing "Oh no, I can't believe you're falling for this loser / Oh no, I thought you knew that I am so much cooler."

[kirksnosehair]

I guess I need to give TToE another shot. I don't usually listen to whole albums in a sitting, so this album was always hard for me since I never want to hear 1-2 minutes of a 24 minute song on shuffle, which is how I mostly listen to music. I don't remember loving many of the melodies or lyrics either, but I'll give it a full spin sometime soon to re-examine that.

My challenge with Ayreon in generally is that I do not think Arjen is a particularly good lyricist. I think he does best when he's dealing with abstract topics, and worst when he tries to write realistic dialogue. And TToE has so much dialogue that is sung in a way that makes very clear the fact that it's dialogue, and the tracks are structured around being short sections of dialogue in a musical rather than being complete, individual songs with lyrics. I can't really ignore it when, oh, here's Marco Hietala singing "Oh no, I can't believe you're falling for this loser / Oh no, I thought you knew that I am so much cooler."

Yeah, if you're listening to Ayreon and expecting poetry I think you're going to disappointed 11 times out of 10.   To me the absolute worst offender here is "The Human Equation" because of the relative seriousness of the topic.  I can put up with the dumb lyrics when the album is about an Electric Castle or some Science Experiment Gone Wrong or any of the other sort of fantasy/sci-fi oriented stuff, but juxtaposed with a serious topic like on THE, as I've written elsewhere most of the lyrics on that album come across to me like something written by a 15-year-old during study hall. 


I think if you're listening to Ayreon for thought-provoking, soul-searching, socially conscious and poetic lyrical prose, you're doing it wrong 


These are the lyrics to The Human Equation:
http://www.darklyrics.com/lyrics/ayreon/thehumanequation.html

[Adami]

I’m a big ayreon fan. I know what kind of lyrics he writes. I’m not expecting anything resembling deep poetry. I still remember being mostly put off by TToE lyrics.

[425]

Yeah, if you're listening to Ayreon and expecting poetry I think you're going to disappointed 11 times out of 10.   To me the absolute worst offender here is "The Human Equation" because of the relative seriousness of the topic.  I can put up with the dumb lyrics when the album is about an Electric Castle or some Science Experiment Gone Wrong or any of the other sort of fantasy/sci-fi oriented stuff, but juxtaposed with a serious topic like on THE, as I've written elsewhere most of the lyrics on that album come across to me like something written by a 15-year-old during study hall. 

THE has some truly awful moments; I'd call it one of the weakest lyrically on the whole. And I absolutely see your point about the seriousness of the topic making it worse; I'd say that applies to TToE, too, which I agree with Adami is probably the most offputting, since a big part of the story is about multiple people manipulating a developmentally disabled person into serving their purposes, which ultimately results in his death. And out of that we get "No, you won't deceive me / You're nothing but a fake / A sad pretender / A total waste of space" and "Eureka! We solved it, we did it."

Incidentally, I've seen the lyrics to THE get a lot of praise, so I'm glad I'm not alone in thinking that they are often pretty bad! The one that kills me every time, for some reason, is "We were showing off our brand-new flashy bikes" / "You looked so fine / Until you both fell over and then started to cry."

[ZirconBlue]

I guess I need to give TToE another shot. I don't usually listen to whole albums in a sitting, so this album was always hard for me since I never want to hear 1-2 minutes of a 24 minute song on shuffle, which is how I mostly listen to music. I don't remember loving many of the melodies or lyrics either, but I'll give it a full spin sometime soon to re-examine that.

My challenge with Ayreon in generally is that I do not think Arjen is a particularly good lyricist. I think he does best when he's dealing with abstract topics, and worst when he tries to write realistic dialogue. And TToE has so much dialogue that is sung in a way that makes very clear the fact that it's dialogue, and the tracks are structured around being short sections of dialogue in a musical rather than being complete, individual songs with lyrics. I can't really ignore it when, oh, here's Marco Hietala singing "Oh no, I can't believe you're falling for this loser / Oh no, I thought you knew that I am so much cooler."

To be fair, Marco IS much cooler.

[425]

Than Tommy Karevik? Can't say I agree. I think they're both pretty cool.

[Ben_Jamin]

I don't judge Arjens lyrics at all. And they're not really a concern to me when I listen to Ayreon. Actually, the subjective of good lyrics, is one I don't have a concern about when listening to music with words. In turn, it allows me to appreciate lyrics that sound cheesy and lame in English.

I listen to music with different languages, and found some with both English and their language of choice, and most times, the non-english version I find to be much more appealing. It's usually due to the way their language flows within the melodies they wrote. And it sounds more beautiful because of those accents, and how their words flow within the melodies of the music.


And now that I think about it more, English not being a persons primary written and spoken language, can affect how the lyrics are written and conveyed. I do wonder, if Arjen were to write in his language, if it would sound more "pretty" and less "lame and cheesy". Sometimes, lyricists do not know any other words that they can use to interpret what they could easily describe in their primary language.


Also, Arjen has a hardcore Sci-fi obsession so it's pretty much guaranteed the lyrics will be cheesy.

Yeah, if you're listening to Ayreon and expecting poetry I think you're going to disappointed 11 times out of 10.   To me the absolute worst offender here is "The Human Equation" because of the relative seriousness of the topic.  I can put up with the dumb lyrics when the album is about an Electric Castle or some Science Experiment Gone Wrong or any of the other sort of fantasy/sci-fi oriented stuff, but juxtaposed with a serious topic like on THE, as I've written elsewhere most of the lyrics on that album come across to me like something written by a 15-year-old during study hall. 

THE has some truly awful moments; I'd call it one of the weakest lyrically on the whole. And I absolutely see your point about the seriousness of the topic making it worse; I'd say that applies to TToE, too, which I agree with Adami is probably the most offputting, since a big part of the story is about multiple people manipulating a developmentally disabled person into serving their purposes, which ultimately results in his death. And out of that we get "No, you won't deceive me / You're nothing but a fake / A sad pretender / A total waste of space" and "Eureka! We solved it, we did it."

Incidentally, I've seen the lyrics to THE get a lot of praise, so I'm glad I'm not alone in thinking that they are often pretty bad! The one that kills me every time, for some reason, is "We were showing off our brand-new flashy bikes" / "You looked so fine / Until you both fell over and then started to cry."

Well, in the context of TTOE, Marco's character is in fact, likely, a 15-year-old getting jealous and causing shit during study hall...

And in that example of THE, those lyrics are to show the memories all Human characters shared together. These are heartfelt and joyous memories that the Wife, and The Friend, were telling 'ME' in order to see if recalling them can bring him out of his Coma. And Passion goes on to show Him, there's a light in the darkness and it's the sound of your Wife, why are you resisting, all the while Reason is also telling him to let her in and let those memories flood your mind. Which he does and he remembers the memory of when he fell in Love with his wife.

[TAC]

OK, just finished up..   



Chaos- Reminds me a bit of Steve Vai era Alcatrazz. Kind of Blackmoreish in some bits and Malmsteenish in others.. I'm liking this. We are off to a good start!

Dawn Of A Million Souls- I am on record that I find Russell Allen a bit cold, and I'm not a huge fan. But here he sounds amazing. I love this style of his singing. I am not on board with his more gruff style. This was an unexpected surprise. Thankfully Damian Wilson isn't singing leads though. He blows! This song is excellent. Even the keyboardy thing four minutes in is nicely orchestrated. Such tasteful vocals by Allen and playing by Romeo. I'd like Symphony X a lot more if they did it like this.

Journey On The Waves Of Time- I'm also on record of not being a huge Ralf Scheepers guy either. But WTF, he sounds amazing here. I don't even mind the extended keyboard solo though. I like the unison with the guitar coming out of it.

To The Quasar-What a nice surprise seeing Andi Deris involved. Takes a while to get going. Deris is pretty clean and very pleasant in the in the intro. I'm glad the song picks up though. While I appreciated the understated Russel Allen, I was hoping to get a little more from Andi. He is also quite understated here. What does that mean for Bruce Dickinson? The song is ok. Seems like a transitional piece.

Into The Black Hole-Bruce is amazing here! And I'm not even 3 minutes in. Interesting song. Bruce kills the entire time. Great performance. But honestly, I'd need a vocalist that I'm fond of the get me through a ten and a half minute mid tempo track. Still he rescues it and makes it fantastic. The song ends quite powerfully.

Through The Wormhole-Ooh Fabio Lione..I like him. Uptempo. I need something uptempo after the last two songs. Gary Wehrkamp is awesome here.

Out Of The White Hole- Somehow Arjen got Timo to not sound so annoying. Cool Deep Purple vibe.
But it develops into so much more in the middle section.

To The Solar System-Who the hell is Robert Soeterboek? This track takes a while to get going. But it brightens up halfway through and salvages itself. But hopefully it's just setting up a strong closer.

The New Migrator-The slow spacey intro actually seems fitting. The song kicks in, but the verse is a bit underwhelming. The prechorus is promising, but this song needs an epic chorus, and it never really gets close. The guitar solo is cool though. Kind of a disappointing ender, honestly. KInd of an odd way to end a "double" album.




Wow, the first three songs were outstanding. But then musically, it starts to do downhill after that. I mean not in a wicked bad way, but it just never keeps the tempo or excitement that the beginning of the album brings. The Deris song is a missed opportunity IMO. He's fearless.

The Bruce track is excellent, and doesn't at all feel like ten minutes. But let's be honest..Bruce carries it.

I like how Arjen got both Allen and Timo to sound really pleasant.

But those final two songs were really disappointing.

I would like to add that Ed Warby's drumming is excellent here. I've never heard of him before.

All in all, I had an awesome listen. I'm going to drop the needle on the first Migrator album.

Thanks!

[Ben_Jamin]

I feel the same way about this album as you do.

I actually got into Ralf Scheepers because of Journey On The Waves of Time. And was quite disappointed when I never really heard that kind of performance on a Primal Fear song. 

I also agree with you about Into The Black Hole. It's just too broody, and spacey, and atmospheric for me. Bruce does carry the song, and it's where the song shines. It does fit in the context of the song. It's like floating in space being slowly sucked into a black hole, and the music just creating the atmosphere as the vocals carry the song, signifies that isolation feeling.


Your review makes me want to listen to this album again...I think it's better than Dream Sequencer. And would've been a great album if he were to have combined both albums.

[KevShmev]

Dickinson and Into the Black Hole is like seeing a great acting performance in a film that is merely pretty good: a great performance can only elevate it so much if the writing isn't great.  That is not to say that Into the Black Hole is a poorly written song, but it's nothing special.  And Dickinson's performance, while great, can only elevate it so much.

[TAC]

I actually got into Ralf Scheepers because of Journey On The Waves of Time. And was quite disappointed when I never really heard that kind of performance on a Primal Fear song. 

Yeah, I find it hard to get into Primal Fear because of him.

Dickinson and Into the Black Hole is like seeing a great acting performance in a film that is merely pretty good: a great performance can only elevate it so much if the writing isn't great.  That is not to say that Into the Black Hole is a poorly written song, but it's nothing special.  And Dickinson's performance, while great, can only elevate it so much.

I'm going to listen to the song again tonight. I have a feeling it's probably not as bad as I portrayed it. But man, Bruce was great.

[KevShmev]

To the Quasar has some bad ass production on the choruses in the opening section.  It's like he is hitting that wah wah pedal on the electric guitar hard, but it is produced to where it sounds like it is under water and thus serves as a really cool layer underneath the vocals, keys and acoustic.  That is a great example of a mix and production coming together perfectly.

[TAC]

I just listened to Into The Black Hole again. I feel like it'll get better with repeated listens. It is a great vehicle for Bruce.

[Ben_Jamin]

Dickinson and Into the Black Hole is like seeing a great acting performance in a film that is merely pretty good: a great performance can only elevate it so much if the writing isn't great.  That is not to say that Into the Black Hole is a poorly written song, but it's nothing special.  And Dickinson's performance, while great, can only elevate it so much.

Yup, it's a song that requires a strong vocalist to pull it off. Tommy was great, he did it justice. He even talked about how nervous he was to be having to put on those shoes, and follow in the bar Bruce set.

[jingle.boy]

Glad it clicked (for the most part) for you.  Soeterbrock fronted a band called Wicked Sensation for a period, and a handful of other unknown acts.  He’s also filled in a few times during Arjen’s live shows.

[TAC]

Glad it clicked (for the most part) for you.  Soeterbrock fronted a band called Wicked Sensation for a period, and a handful of other unknown acts.  He’s also filled in a few times during Arjen’s live shows.

Yeah I enjoyed it. I've already relistened to the first 5 tracks. It really does end with a whimper though.

[Cool Chris]

TAC, thanks for the honest review and write-up.

Man, one of these days I want to sit down with all the Ayreon albums and the lyrics, and listen to each album straight through with no interruptions, and just enjoy the music and immerse myself in that world. I haven't ever done that with any of them.

[Ben_Jamin]

Glad it clicked (for the most part) for you.  Soeterbrock fronted a band called Wicked Sensation for a period, and a handful of other unknown acts.  He’s also filled in a few times during Arjen’s live shows.

Yeah I enjoyed it. I've already relistened to the first 5 tracks. It really does end with a whimper though.

I tend to lose interest when Into The Black Hole comes on. 

[jingle.boy]

Glad it clicked (for the most part) for you.  Soeterbrock fronted a band called Wicked Sensation for a period, and a handful of other unknown acts.  He’s also filled in a few times during Arjen’s live shows.

Yeah I enjoyed it. I've already relistened to the first 5 tracks. It really does end with a whimper though.

Indeed, the best tracks are on the front end of this disc, but I still do enjoy the tracks with Soeterbrock and Ian Parry on the mic.

Fun fact... Ian Parry was in Arjen's first band, Vengeance, in the early 90s, and sung lead on one album.  I do have 4 of the albums that Arjen played on before he ventured out on his own.  Pretty decent stuff.

[Zydar]

I'm curious to check his music out. But since I have a problem with The Astonishing, will I struggle with his music? Sounds like they have the same kind of 'style' - from your descriptions anyway.

[Nick]

The worst Ayreon albums are still 10x better than The Astonishing, and stylistically they are not the same.

[Zydar]

Awesome, thanks!

[The Letter M]

The worst Ayreon albums are still 10x better than The Astonishing, and stylistically they are not the same.

Agree, wholeheartedly. I would take any of my least favorite Ayreon albums over The Astonishing any day. And Ayreon albums tend to branch out in style and genre more than DT does, especially with the use of real strings and woodwinds on the albums.

-Marc.

[KevShmev]

The worst Ayreon albums are still 10x better than The Astonishing, and stylistically they are not the same.

What did the five fingers say to the face?

[jingle.boy]

The worst Ayreon albums are still 10x better than The Astonishing, and stylistically they are not the same.

What did the five fingers say to the face?

They said "THE ASTONISHING FUCKING SUCKS".

Nick and Marc are spot on.

Incidentally, I just listened to The Astonishing a few days ago for the first time since the months after it was released.  Yup, it's still a steaming turd.

[Ben_Jamin]

I'm curious to check his music out. But since I have a problem with The Astonishing, will I struggle with his music? Sounds like they have the same kind of 'style' - from your descriptions anyway.

The Astonishing wishes it could Ayreon. Lets put it that way. 

[LudwigVan]

Well... TAC loves The Astonishing.   

[TAC]

Well... TAC loves The Astonishing. 

[425]

I'm curious to check his music out. But since I have a problem with The Astonishing, will I struggle with his music? Sounds like they have the same kind of 'style' - from your descriptions anyway.

I think it depends on what you dislike about The Astonishing. Is it the cheesy lyrics and heavy emphasis on story? If so, you'll probably have trouble with a lot of Ayreon. Is it the heavy reliance on piano-driven pieces? Then no, Ayreon is a totally different sound. Is it just the fact that it's a long album that has a lot of short tracks? Then probably not, since most Ayreon albums have a variety of track lengths.