Kamelot

[Zook]

I'm not sure I've ever listened to Ghost Opera all the way through. Usually after Love You To Death, I'm so bored, I turn it off. Kamelot played in my tiny little hometown of New Port Richey, Florida, which both baffled and excited me. I had the Ghost Opera tour shirt, and wore it all the time, but damn, that album is such a slog. It doesn't help either that there's an extra second pause between songs. Poetry is worse, and Khan checked out at that point. I like both Silverthorn and Haven, but Shadow Theory was another miss.

[The Walrus]

Khan sounds fantastic on Poetry

[cramx3]

Khan sounds fine, he was not the issue with that album (for me, as someone who thinks it's Khan's worst with the band).  I mean, So Long is so damn good thanks to Khan and Simone, but the problem is the song writing on that one. 

[The Walrus]

Poetry has more consistently good songwriting than TBH imo! AND a better interlude (Dear Editor)!  okay I'll give it a rest hahaha

[Zook]

Poetry has more consistently good songwriting than TBH imo! AND a better interlude (Dear Editor)!  okay I'll give it a rest hahaha

Did you eat paint chips as a kid?

[Adami]

Poetry has more consistently good songwriting than TBH imo! AND a better interlude (Dear Editor)!  okay I'll give it a rest hahaha

You okay? You can talk to me. I’m a professional.

[MoraWintersoul]

Everyone who just forced me to read half a page of Ghost Opera slander can go straight to hell.

Dear Editor

Okay but Dear Editor + The Zodiac is a section of the album that genuinely slaps.

[The Walrus]

Poetry has more consistently good songwriting than TBH imo! AND a better interlude (Dear Editor)!  okay I'll give it a rest hahaha

You okay? You can talk to me. I’m a professional.

Poetry has more consistently good songwriting than TBH imo! AND a better interlude (Dear Editor)!  okay I'll give it a rest hahaha

Did you eat paint chips as a kid?

[goo-goo]

This topic made me re-visit Kamelot's complete discography and I just finished it. While Tommy is a great vocalist and has a great voice, I think Khan's delivery is miles ahead compared to Tommy's delivery. Not sure how to describe it but Khan delivers a palette of tonalities with his voice. I think for me that's the main difference. I'm listening to Conception's newest album and Khan's delivery is just amazing. The last track, Feathered Moves...don't tell me that Tommy can sing that like Khan. While I agree that Kamelot's music has become formulaic (and many of you touched on great points), I think the vocal delivery is weak. Again, not saying that Tommy is a bad vocalist, but his delivery is a bit pale...stale...not sure how to describe it. But I just feel the music more with Khan singing that with Tommy.

[Adami]

This topic made me re-visit Kamelot's complete discography and I just finished it. While Tommy is a great vocalist and has a great voice, I think Khan's delivery is miles ahead compared to Tommy's delivery. Not sure how to describe it but Khan delivers a palette of tonalities with his voice. I think for me that's the main difference. I'm listening to Conception's newest album and Khan's delivery is just amazing. The last track, Feathered Moves...don't tell me that Tommy can sing that like Khan. While I agree that Kamelot's music has become formulaic (and many of you touched on great points), I think the vocal delivery is weak. Again, not saying that Tommy is a bad vocalist, but his delivery is a bit pale...stale...not sure how to describe it. But I just feel the music more with Khan singing that with Tommy.

I love Tommy but he has a much more...traditional? voice compared to Roy. Roy had just such a uniquely expressive voice.

[MirrorMask]

Roy Khan was unique and irreplaceable. And yet I think that with Tommy they managed the impossible, to replace an irreplaceable singer. I'm totally on board with him and while he can't replicate Khan, his voice fits perfectly the music and I'm 100% happy with him.

[cramx3]

Khan's just on another level with his vocal ability and style.  Even on the One Cold Winter's Night DVD, the emotion expressed in his face while singing is on another level.   Having said that, I pretty much agree with MirrorMask, he gets the job done regardless. 

goo, have you listened to Seventh Wonder?  Tommy's vocals are way more interesting there.

While I have not been able to really enjoy Concepcion, I was (and still am although 2021 is so far away) really looking forward to getting to see Khan perform in person.

[MoraWintersoul]

goo, have you listened to Seventh Wonder?  Tommy's vocals are way more interesting there.

Yeah, Seventh Wonder is to Tommy what Kam was to Khan, a place to just let everything out emotionally. He's very conscious of who he's replacing and it makes him sing things differently in Kam than in SW.

[Adami]

goo, have you listened to Seventh Wonder?  Tommy's vocals are way more interesting there.

Yeah, Seventh Wonder is to Tommy what Kam was to Khan, a place to just let everything out emotionally. He's very conscious of who he's replacing and it makes him sing things differently in Kam than in SW.

He’s also said he makes sure to only write vocal parts in Kamelot that he can do live without much issue.

[cramx3]

goo, have you listened to Seventh Wonder?  Tommy's vocals are way more interesting there.

Yeah, Seventh Wonder is to Tommy what Kam was to Khan, a place to just let everything out emotionally. He's very conscious of who he's replacing and it makes him sing things differently in Kam than in SW.

I always kind of figured it was Thomas keeping him a bit chained down, trying to keep him sounding like Khan and not letting him loose.  I do really hope they let Tommy show off more of his chops on the next album.  When I saw Seventh Wonder live last fall at ProgPower, the band wasn't the best live.  Some noticeable timing mistakes and whatnot.  No big deal, I know they aren't a full time touring band, but Tommy still sounded absolutely amazing doing all those vocal spots.  Makes me really feel he is underutilized in Kamelot.  Kind of reminds me of Floor in Nightwish as well.  They both perform the music that's called for well enough, but neither are really let loose to show off their greatest talents.

[ErHaO]

Honestly I think Tommy sounds great in Kamelot. As much as I enjoy his Seventh Wonder work, more vocal runs and constant switching is not something I necessarily want in Kamelot songs. I think his voice suits the Kamelot style very well. He sings with conviction/emotion and adds little details here and there that I love about his vocals. But, again, part of the problem for some is that too many songs are similar, including the vocal melodies.

I also have seen Tommy struggle with Seventh Wonder songs live and wonder how well sustainable those vocals are for long and intensive touring tbh. It is the type of top of the range singing that is be at your best or bust. (No dig btw, because there is plenty of footage that shows him being great).

[MoraWintersoul]

As much as I enjoy his Seventh Wonder work, more vocal runs and constant switching is not something I necessarily want in Kamelot songs.

Yeah, that's true. I was more thinking of what goes into the music, not necessarily the style of singing or the range. Kamelot is a band where he sings and writes vocal melodies/lyrics and has a role to play based on their extensive body of work that was in place before him. Seventh Wonder is where he sings and writes vocal melodies/lyrics and leaves a piece of his soul. Plus there is no "how am I going to pull this off for years on tour"-considerations, because they weren't really a touring band even before he joined Kamelot.

[MirrorMask]

Gave a spin to The Shadow Theory today... it's like I remembered it, it left me a bit meh with sparkles here and there of Kamelot brilliance.

Phantom Divine was one of my favorite but geez, hearing it now after some time the copycat syndrome is strong with this one. Nightwish have that Dark Chest of Wonders / Storytime / Noise thing, Kamelot have this Sacrimony / Veil of Elysium thing that doesn't certainly get better with Phantom Divine.

Burn to Embrace is probably the best song on the album.

I forgot how nice was In Twilight Hours.

Static and Kevlar Skin are quite good also. Not the strong songs to carry an album obviously, but I find them cool.

The rest I already forgot what it sounds like. Maybe Vespertine is okay-ish but starts better than how it evolves.

[Evermind]

I gave Poetry a spin today and couldn't finish it. There are good songs but overall yeah, not going to go back to this one.

I'm not even going to bother with The Shadow Theory again.

[Adami]

I think, for me, albums like Haven and Shadow Theory (terrible name by the way) are like enjoyable but disposable food.

If Haven or Shadow Theory happens to come on my rotation, I'll listen...I'll mostly enjoy....then I'll just move on and forget most of what just happened.

I'm never like "damn, I really want to listen to Shadow Theory" but if it's on, it's fun.

[The Walrus]

Come day, come night, my Evermind
Is hating on Poetry~

[ErHaO]

Gave a spin to The Shadow Theory today... it's like I remembered it, it left me a bit meh with sparkles here and there of Kamelot brilliance.

Phantom Divine was one of my favorite but geez, hearing it now after some time the copycat syndrome is strong with this one. Nightwish have that Dark Chest of Wonders / Storytime / Noise thing, Kamelot have this Sacrimony / Veil of Elysium thing that doesn't certainly get better with Phantom Divine.

Burn to Embrace is probably the best song on the album.

I forgot how nice was In Twilight Hours.

Static and Kevlar Skin are quite good also. Not the strong songs to carry an album obviously, but I find them cool.

The rest I already forgot what it sounds like. Maybe Vespertine is okay-ish but starts better than how it evolves.

I actually think Kevlar Skin is the best song of the album., followed by Burns to Embrace.

And yes, that Nightwish comparison is apt.

[cramx3]

I'm a fan of Burns to Embrace. 

Honestly still think The Proud and The Broken is maybe the best song on the album.  I feel like it's the most interesting and only time they tried something a bit different than the last couple albums.  It doesn't immediately catch you like Sacrimony :cough: I mean Phantom Divine but it's a real solid closer to the album that gives the album a little more depth.

Vespertine has grown on me.  I didn't love it initially, but seeing it live made me enjoy it more and I find it to be a fun song now.  I happened to be there when they live debut it in the Netherlands and I wanted to record it but dropped my camera  I did capture a few other songs though, but thought them playing that for the first time was not only shocking in the moment, but a cool first live performance to capture.  Oh well, someone else got it 

[MirrorMask]

I've heard also Haven for the first time in forever.

There were no "eh, now that I have some distance I can see why these songs are meh". It's still an album I love start to finish  my favorite by far with Tommy, and I don't expect an eventual relistening of Sliverthorn to change my mind.

[soupytwist]

My ranking, because ranking is phun.

1. The Black Halo.
The Classic.  One of my favorite albums of all time.

2. Silverthorn.
3. Epica.
4. Karma.
5. Haven.
All these albums are great.

6. Poetry
7. Shadow Theory
8. Forth Legacy
9. Ghost Opera.
These albums are pretty good, but generally are patchy.

10. Siege.
Listenable.

11  & 12. Eternity & Dominion.
Not listenable.

[MirrorMask]

I can't really order them, but I'll divide them like this:

ORIGINAL SINGER, SORRY GUY FOR NOT REMEMBERING YOUR NAME... MARK VANDERBILT MAYBE?

Meh, both are expendable.

KHAN: A synusoid. From Seige Perilous to Epica, each album was better than the previous; from The Black Halo to Poetry to the Poisoned, each album was worse than the previous. "Worse" does not mean "it sucks", it means I liked the previous one little better.

TOMMY: Haven >> Silverthorn and The Shadow Theory.

[ErHaO]

My ranking, because ranking is phun.

1. The Black Halo.
The Classic.  One of my favorite albums of all time.

2. Silverthorn.
3. Epica.
4. Karma.
5. Haven.
All these albums are great.

6. Poetry
7. Shadow Theory
8. Forth Legacy
9. Ghost Opera.
These albums are pretty good, but generally are patchy.

10. Siege.
Listenable.

11  & 12. Eternity & Dominion.
Not listenable.

Same top 5. And 6-9 I'd swap Ghost Opera with Poetry (and then make a "boring but somehow a bit interesting as well"  subcategory for number 9, Poetry). First Kahn record is fine but nothing more for me. Their first two albums are unpleasant to listen to indeed.

[MirrorMask]

I've heard also Haven for the first time in forever.

There were no "eh, now that I have some distance I can see why these songs are meh". It's still an album I love start to finish  my favorite by far with Tommy, and I don't expect an eventual relistening of Sliverthorn to change my mind.

I confirm it, I finished my Tommy-era recollection and Silverthorn is middle of the road for me.

Sacrimony and Veritas stand a notch above everything else, top of the top and big classics (even if everyone seem to have forgotten about Veritas).

The rest ranges from just good / okayish (Fahreneit, Jolee) to "I heard it 2 hours ago and I can't remember the songs already". But the chorus of Prodigal Son is cool at least.

[Evermind]

Torn / Veritas / title-track are all great

[soupytwist]

I confirm it, I finished my Tommy-era recollection and Silverthorn is middle of the road for me.

Sacrimony and Veritas stand a notch above everything else, top of the top and big classics (even if everyone seem to have forgotten about Veritas).

The rest ranges from just good / okayish (Fahreneit, Jolee) to "I heard it 2 hours ago and I can't remember the songs already". But the chorus of Prodigal Son is cool at least.

Silverthorn and Haven are full of 7&8/10 songs, and it's that consistancy that makes the albums so enjoyable for me.  I give the edge to Silverthorn because 2 of the 3 standout tracks across those two albums come from Silverthorn (Sacrimony and Veritas) I also think Jolee is slightly better than both ballads on Haven and my final reason is Revolution is the weakest track (weakest Tommy era track i'd go as far to say) not outright bad or anything, just one I sometimes skip. 

[cramx3]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUf6_L8Wyt0

Phantom Divine from the live album 

I placed my preorder for the cd/dvd/blu-ray.  One thing that kind of stinks about this live video though... Alestorm released a live video from the same venue with a much more wild crowd.  Kind of makes this crowd look way too tame for a power metal show, especially for the opening song of the show and the packed venue is just standing there until Tommy has to say raise your hands 

[ErHaO]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUf6_L8Wyt0

Phantom Divine from the live album 

I placed my preorder for the cd/dvd/blu-ray.  One thing that kind of stinks about this live video though... Alestorm released a live video from the same venue with a much more wild crowd.  Kind of makes this crowd look way too tame for a power metal show, especially for the opening song of the show and the packed venue is just standing there until Tommy has to say raise your hands 

Honestly, having seen both there, Alestorm is much more of a party band with people running around, dressed as pirates and all. The second time I saw them in 013 I could barely hear the music Alestorm was playing (unfortunately), but a party it was nonetheless.

Kamelot is a different experience, but I can say the crowd was very much into it, as I was at this concert recording. Can't say I think the crowd is dead here (I was in the back, so it isn't on me if they are!).

And I will say it is suuuuper common for vocalists to shout "scream/jump/clap/put your hand in the air" etc.

[cramx3]

Oh I understand all that, doesn't mean it's still a bland crowd for a concert DVD.  I recall the band asking people not to use their phones for this, which looks like the crowd followed with, but I thought that might mean a more energetic crowd and not ONLY when the singer asks for it.  I actually recall this from my Kamelot concert in Nijmegan.  Everyone just standing there until Tommy said put your hands up and then EVERYONE did.  I always thought that was kind of funny how you can tell everyone is into it because they listen, but also aren't very actively displaying that interest.  I have no doubt the crowd was enjoying the performance, it's just a bit harder to read especially when you compare it to the party band. 

[Ben_Jamin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUf6_L8Wyt0

Phantom Divine from the live album 

I placed my preorder for the cd/dvd/blu-ray.  One thing that kind of stinks about this live video though... Alestorm released a live video from the same venue with a much more wild crowd.  Kind of makes this crowd look way too tame for a power metal show, especially for the opening song of the show and the packed venue is just standing there until Tommy has to say raise your hands 

Is Veil of Elysium gonna be released next. 

All I can say is Alestorm put out some fun as hell energy in their shows. It's the Pirate Metal that gives it this vibe of being on a party boat with pirates. It's a way different type of show experience I have yet to be seen replicated, meaning the vibe and energy of the music and crowd intertwined.

[cramx3]

Yea, its not a direct comparison, but both fall into the power metal genre.  Alestorm definitely brings a bigger pit and more energetic show, but Kamelot can do that too.  Their music is definitely pit worthy IMO, but even at my own local shows, I don't typically see them for Kamelot, but in NYC I feel like the crowd is more into it than the Netherlands.  Also, I only used the comparison because it's the same venue released in the same year so I found some similarities.  It's not totally an apples to apples comparison so I admit it's a bit flawed, but I just like to see a wild crowd with a live release and on the intro track, it seems a bit lacking so that's just my opinion on how I feel about it.