Author Topic: Kamelot  (Read 150501 times)

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Online Evermind

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Re: Kamelot
« Reply #1155 on: June 08, 2020, 08:38:54 AM »
What do people like about Silverthorn (favorite songs, etc.)? Genuinely curious. I don't hear anything quality on there except for Sacrimony. I think the concept really held that one back, and I even have the box edition with the hardback storybook and stuff.

Every song is good on this one IMO, minus the opening/closing tracks Silverthorn is probably my least favorite song and my favorites are My Confession, Veritas, Falling Like the Fahrenheit, and Sacrimony. 

I actually think the intro is great, but yeah, the album is consistently good. The two ballads (Song for Jolee and Fahrenheit) are miles ahead of two Haven ballads for me, the power metal tracks like Sacrimony and My Confession are really good, the closer's great if a bit disjointed, Torn / Veritas / title-track are all great. The only song I'm impartial to is Ashes to Ashes.

Then again, I think Poetry for the Poisoned is the worst record of Khan-era if you discard the first two albums by far, so I think Katt and I are just not a match.
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Offline The Walrus

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Re: Kamelot
« Reply #1156 on: June 08, 2020, 08:42:00 AM »
 :biggrin: :lol
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Offline MirrorMask

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Re: Kamelot
« Reply #1157 on: June 08, 2020, 08:53:04 AM »
Then again, I think Poetry for the Poisoned is the worst record of Khan-era if you discard the first two albums by far

You mean the first two Kamelot albums period? because the first two albums with Khan, Siege Perilous and especially The Fourth Legacy, are great and I rate them way above Poetry for the Poisoned (which I consider as well the worst with Khan).
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Re: Kamelot
« Reply #1158 on: June 08, 2020, 08:54:55 AM »
Then again, I think Poetry for the Poisoned is the worst record of Khan-era if you discard the first two albums by far

You mean the first two Kamelot albums period? because the first two albums with Khan, Siege Perilous and especially The Fourth Legacy, are great and I rate them way above Poetry for the Poisoned (which I consider as well the worst with Khan).

Right, yeah, I somehow forgot that Khan wasn't on the first two. I meant the very first two. I guess that means Poetry is just the worst of Khan-era and that's that, I also rate Siege and Fourth Legacy way above that one.
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Offline The Walrus

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Re: Kamelot
« Reply #1159 on: June 08, 2020, 08:56:44 AM »
:getoffmylawn:
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Offline MoraWintersoul

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Re: Kamelot
« Reply #1160 on: June 08, 2020, 08:58:38 AM »
What do people like about Silverthorn (favorite songs, etc.)? Genuinely curious. I don't hear anything quality on there except for Sacrimony. I think the concept really held that one back, and I even have the box edition with the hardback storybook and stuff.

Every song is good on this one IMO, minus the opening/closing tracks Silverthorn is probably my least favorite song and my favorites are My Confession, Veritas, Falling Like the Fahrenheit, and Sacrimony.
Same. The concept (which I know wasn't done by them, but it's one of the few "outside collab" elements I enjoy in the new era) added something to it from my point of view, but if we disregard that, Tommy's lyrics were pretty damn good, I liked the vibe, the songs were all very different from each other and a lot of them had a hint of old Kamelot. Even on Haven the songs just start sounding very samey and there's way fewer strong hooks.

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Offline Adami

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Re: Kamelot
« Reply #1161 on: June 08, 2020, 09:04:14 AM »
To be, subjectively, Silverthorn just felt like Kamelot trying to write a great album. After that, they noticed certain elements/types of songs got a much better live response and just started focusing on those because they wanted to please the fans. Which, to me, makes many of the songs on Haven and after fun and good sounding, but kind of empty and manufactured. I can't think of any songs from the last few albums that actually sound bad, they just sound kind of empty to me. Most of them anyway. Still fun.
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Offline The Walrus

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Re: Kamelot
« Reply #1162 on: June 08, 2020, 09:07:45 AM »
To be, subjectively, Silverthorn just felt like Kamelot trying to write a great album. After that, they noticed certain elements/types of songs got a much better live response and just started focusing on those because they wanted to please the fans. Which, to me, makes many of the songs on Haven and after fun and good sounding, but kind of empty and manufactured. I can't think of any songs from the last few albums that actually sound bad, they just sound kind of empty to me. Most of them anyway. Still fun.

I agree with a lot of that.
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Offline MoraWintersoul

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Re: Kamelot
« Reply #1163 on: June 08, 2020, 11:26:21 AM »
I think that "manufactured", "polished", trendy element has always been there for them (or at least Thomas, Sascha and Oliver), but we notice it more now because a) they've gotten more successful in pulling it off - actually being polished, actually hitting the vibe they are surgically aiming for, and b) we're not as blue-eyed and uncynical as we were in 2005ish (for me, say, 2007-09ish but I know we have some folks who arrived even earlier). Can anyone honestly put their hand on their heart and swear The Black Halo wasn't dead on trend and carefully executed for maximum fanbase expansion back then? The only difference is that that vibe appealed to me more, and I wish some band (not Kam, they don't want it) would bring it back.

Many more bands are like that up to some extent, that's what it takes to have a career in music. But they're the first ones I noticed and so it kind of just affects how I feel about the new albums. I almost prefer to have my fave bands and artists flounder a little bit for a cycle or two because they're following some weird impulse that only they like or get. I respect John Petrucci about 10000x more for The Astonishing than for ADTOE, to use the forum home turf example.

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Offline Adami

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Re: Kamelot
« Reply #1164 on: June 08, 2020, 11:31:19 AM »
I agree but there's levels of degree. Black Halo was a pretty big shift from Fourth Legacy, you know?

And I think obviously every band wants to maximize their fan base. But even in interviews for the last few albums, they'll say things like "the sound you expect from us" which is where I think it tends to cross the line to manufactured. If what they want to do is inline with fan wishes...awesome. But I feel at some point they realized "fans like XYZ elements the most" and decided to make that the driving force of their writing. Might just be me. I dunno.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: Kamelot
« Reply #1165 on: June 08, 2020, 11:37:27 AM »
After losing Khan, I think it was a no brainer to try and please fans similar to DT's ADTOE IMO

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Re: Kamelot
« Reply #1166 on: June 08, 2020, 11:39:07 AM »
I think that "manufactured", "polished", trendy element has always been there for them (or at least Thomas, Sascha and Oliver), but we notice it more now because a) they've gotten more successful in pulling it off - actually being polished, actually hitting the vibe they are surgically aiming for, and b) we're not as blue-eyed and uncynical as we were in 2005ish (for me, say, 2007-09ish but I know we have some folks who arrived even earlier). Can anyone honestly put their hand on their heart and swear The Black Halo wasn't dead on trend and carefully executed for maximum fanbase expansion back then? The only difference is that that vibe appealed to me more, and I wish some band (not Kam, they don't want it) would bring it back.

Well, I can't speak for others, but for me - yes! And even if was, as we say, manufactured for that, it has the musical beef to stand up to those criticisms; there is an adventure and inspiration in most of that record that I just don't hear in the newer stuff. Even in 2005, The Black Halo was head and shoulders above many other bands playing power metal or trying to do concept albums. The Black Halo is what elevated the band to a higher level. I'm not even a big fan of that record compared to most Kamelot fans and I can see why it has the legacy it does. I honestly don't believe the 'manufactured, polished' criticisms apply to Kamelot prior to Khan leaving the band. There was a fundamental shift in approach from the band - to its music, to its audience, to the glossiness of their videos - that wasn't present before then. It's not Tommy's fault; I'd say it's more Thomas and Oliver, as they're the two main songwriters. But they found a formula that works. Every lead single for the last 3 albums has followed an identical template, the meter, the melodic contours, the string patterns, it's all formulaic. Whereas Karma, Epica, TBH, Ghost Opera, Poetry all had variety in their singles and aesthetics. There was diversity, something that is lacking from this new era of the band, for whatever reasons that might be.

And it's hard to blame them, because they're at a level of success where although they're not doing arenas, they tend to sell out or do very well every time they roll through the country, which is a lot. They're a well-oiled machine and they have to keep it going, but for me, it's come at the cost of inventive, compelling art, especially since Oliver hasn't done anything with Sons of Seasons since Henning left, and I'll take Magnisphyricon over the last 3 Kamelot albums in a heartbeat (and it sounds very Kamelot-y at times, too).

Sorry, I just had my first coffee in several weeks, and my mind is racing.  :lol :lol
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Offline cramx3

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Re: Kamelot
« Reply #1167 on: June 08, 2020, 11:45:10 AM »
They're a well-oiled machine and they have to keep it going, but for me, it's come at the cost of inventive, compelling art

Totally agree.  I think this goes back to Khan leaving.  Poetry had it's own style and sound to it, and while I rank it my least favorite Khan record, it still shows they were expanding their sound and trying new things.  Since Khan left, it shook the band.  I mean, this is Thomas' main job and I think he probably felt his future was not looking so bright so to save it, you find someone who can do the Khan stuff justice and go back to your core sound that you know will make your fan base happy and it worked.  I think Kamelot are more popular today than when Khan was in the band and it may be because they are catering to the mass crowd of followers.

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Re: Kamelot
« Reply #1168 on: June 08, 2020, 12:21:38 PM »
I honestly don't believe the 'manufactured, polished' criticisms apply to Kamelot prior to Khan leaving the band. There was a fundamental shift in approach from the band - to its music, to its audience, to the glossiness of their videos - that wasn't present before then.
Really, you don't think the video of The Haunting is a '05 version of Sacrimony?  :) then again, I do agree that the music back then brought a lot that I am now lacking.

Adami, you're really not the only one. Bands do say that a lot in interviews, they reach full circle moments and "refocus on who they are" and after album six or seven it makes sense to just start saying "well, we wanted to give the fans a really good Iron Maiden album and give them what they want". But the difference is that a lot of them still surprise you with some changes that aren't advertised and with Kamelot, it really is exactly what it says on the tin.

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Offline cramx3

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Re: Kamelot
« Reply #1169 on: June 08, 2020, 12:27:59 PM »
While we all chat about this, I do believe they are working on new music.  Maybe they will be more inspired this time to do something a bit more out of their shell.

I also think Seventh Wonder is working on a new album.  I'd love to see Tommy get used a bit more in Kamelot like he is in Seventh Wonder.  Maybe working on both in a similar time frame will bring out new ideas. 

Offline ErHaO

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Re: Kamelot
« Reply #1170 on: June 08, 2020, 12:28:10 PM »
I think many artists would love being able to play mostly new(er) songs and have their most succesful tours doing that, with good crowd reception, 25 years into their career. I think that definitely plays a part in their approach. They have caught a new, relatively young fanbase in recent years (at least in Europe) and they are building up a repetoire that aligns with that crowd, as well in maintaining a selection of old school classics. And I don't blame them for that approach. Their day to day job mostly is touring, not making albums, after all.

That said, while they are going for a similar direction, they most definitely put effort into their works and I also think they enjoy making this music and especially enjoy playing it live. They are great musicians and it shows in my opinion.

In general I do agree with Adami here:

To be, subjectively, Silverthorn just felt like Kamelot trying to write a great album. After that, they noticed certain elements/types of songs got a much better live response and just started focusing on those because they wanted to please the fans. Which, to me, makes many of the songs on Haven and after fun and good sounding, but kind of empty and manufactured. I can't think of any songs from the last few albums that actually sound bad, they just sound kind of empty to me. Most of them anyway. Still fun.

I guess am a bit more positive in the sense that I do really enjoy the last two albums, but I also would love fresher sounding material in their upcoming album.

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Re: Kamelot
« Reply #1171 on: June 08, 2020, 01:58:54 PM »
I'll join Katt in Team Haven. Definitely my favourite of the Tommy era, quite comfortably.

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Offline soupytwist

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Re: Kamelot
« Reply #1172 on: June 09, 2020, 10:00:27 AM »
I think the band perhaps understandably played it too safe on 'Shadow Theory'.  When Khan left the others must have wondered how things would be.  'Silverthorn' proved the fan base remained loyal and 'Haven' went on to be their biggest seller yet.  'Shadow Theory' feels like they wanted to try a replicate that success again basically by making Haven Part 2, but it didn't work out like that critics and fans have generally said it's a lazy album and the sales didn't reach Haven levels.  Maybe on the next album they'll be hungry again.

On saying all that I actually don't mind Shadow Theory - yeah it's deriative, and not one of their stronger releases, but it's still the Kamalot sound I enjoy, and Vespertine as a stellar tune!  The band Serenity (who sound a lot like Kamalot) recently released 'The Last Knight' album which is very similar to Shadow Theory in that it's a very by the numbers Power Metal album, a quite enjoy that too.

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Re: Kamelot
« Reply #1173 on: June 09, 2020, 10:18:17 AM »
I saw Serenity opening for Rage last February, one of the two concerts I've seen this year (the other was DT). The singer is more than awesome live, he's nailing all the songs, and in an alternate universe where Tommy doesn't exist, he could have been Khan's replacement.

I'm not overly familiar with Serenity's output, but the songs they played live were good. I assume it's one of those bands where if you pull the three-four best songs of the last three-four albums, you have a completely stellar album.

My Kingdom Come, a song from the last album, seems definitively in the Veil of Elysium / Sacrimony territory.
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Offline ErHaO

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Re: Kamelot
« Reply #1174 on: June 09, 2020, 10:25:43 AM »
Saw Serenity as a special guest opener for Kamelot, and that was a great night to have them as a combo.

Offline Adami

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Re: Kamelot
« Reply #1175 on: June 09, 2020, 10:26:55 AM »
I think the band perhaps understandably played it too safe on 'Shadow Theory'.  When Khan left the others must have wondered how things would be.  'Silverthorn' proved the fan base remained loyal and 'Haven' went on to be their biggest seller yet.  'Shadow Theory' feels like they wanted to try a replicate that success again basically by making Haven Part 2, but it didn't work out like that critics and fans have generally said it's a lazy album and the sales didn't reach Haven levels.  Maybe on the next album they'll be hungry again.

On saying all that I actually don't mind Shadow Theory - yeah it's deriative, and not one of their stronger releases, but it's still the Kamalot sound I enjoy, and Vespertine as a stellar tune!  The band Serenity (who sound a lot like Kamalot) recently released 'The Last Knight' album which is very similar to Shadow Theory in that it's a very by the numbers Power Metal album, a quite enjoy that too.

Your Star Trek opinions make so much more sense now.  :rollin
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Offline soupytwist

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Re: Kamelot
« Reply #1176 on: June 09, 2020, 11:13:56 AM »
I'm not overly familiar with Serenity's output, but the songs they played live were good. I assume it's one of those bands where if you pull the three-four best songs of the last three-four albums, you have a completely stellar album.

I'd personally say they are better than that.  Their second album (Fallen Sanctuary) though to their sixth (Lionheart) are all very strong choc full of great tunes.  As I said the most recent release is a little derivative but still decent - if you enjoy Kamelot they are well worth checking out.

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Re: Kamelot
« Reply #1177 on: June 09, 2020, 11:18:14 AM »


Your Star Trek opinions make so much more sense now.  :rollin

Haha!
We appear to be fans of the same things - for completely different reasons.

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Offline Adami

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Re: Kamelot
« Reply #1178 on: June 09, 2020, 11:21:30 AM »


Your Star Trek opinions make so much more sense now.  :rollin

Haha!
We appear to be fans of the same things - for completely different reasons.

 Picard > Ent  :loser:

Had to go and ruin that at the end didn't ya!
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Offline soupytwist

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Re: Kamelot
« Reply #1179 on: June 09, 2020, 12:30:22 PM »


Your Star Trek opinions make so much more sense now.  :rollin

Haha!
We appear to be fans of the same things - for completely different reasons.

 Picard > Ent  :loser:

Had to go and ruin that at the end didn't ya!

Whoa!  Just been reading some of this thread from the start - and what's this, we have some common ground! (providing your opinion hasn't changed in nearly 10 years).  Neither of us hold Ghost Opera in high regard - for me it's the weakest Kamelot album outside of the pre Khan ones.  With this and your views on Disco season 2, we could yet become friends!

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Re: Kamelot
« Reply #1180 on: June 09, 2020, 01:06:20 PM »
But Ghost Opera rules!

From a Mega Man Legends island jamming power metal to a Walrus listening to black metal, I like your story arc.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Kamelot
« Reply #1181 on: June 09, 2020, 01:36:20 PM »
But Ghost Opera rules!



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Re: Kamelot
« Reply #1182 on: June 09, 2020, 01:40:07 PM »
oh ok
From a Mega Man Legends island jamming power metal to a Walrus listening to black metal, I like your story arc.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Kamelot
« Reply #1183 on: June 09, 2020, 01:44:14 PM »
oh ok

Come back when you like Silverthorn!
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Re: Kamelot
« Reply #1184 on: June 09, 2020, 01:48:28 PM »
oh ok

Come back when you like Silverthorn!

well everyone it was nice knowing you but I am off to the Undying Lands, never to return
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Offline soupytwist

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Re: Kamelot
« Reply #1185 on: June 09, 2020, 02:46:51 PM »
But Ghost Opera rules!



:)

First the album pisses me right off by putting it's best song as a Japanese bonus track.  'Season's End' is not only the best song of the session it's one of my fav Kamelot songs period.  The other issue is for me of the songs that made the album there are no great ones - no Tier A Kamelot material.  Rule The World, Human Stain, Ghost Opera and Love You To Death are all good songs, solid Tier B, but (without Season's End) the album lacks a real standout song.   Then there are 3 songs in a row on the second half of the album that are just bland - Ashes, Mourning Star and Silence of the Darkness - totally forgettable songs,  even the other bonus song 'Pendulous Fall' is better than those.   And as a personal aside I know it's quite a popular song with the fans but 'Anthem' is one of the few Kamelot songs I actively dislike.

So yeah it's the weakest one for me.  Replace Anthem and one of those bland songs with Season's End and Pendulous and it would probably move above  Fourth, Poetry and Shadow Theory.  In hindsight I think it's actually better than Seige already, I forgot about that album when I said it's the worst pre Khan one.

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Re: Kamelot
« Reply #1186 on: June 09, 2020, 02:51:25 PM »


Is this what it feels like when I tell people Poetry is actually factually the #1 best Kamelot album?  :lol
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Offline soupytwist

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Re: Kamelot
« Reply #1187 on: June 09, 2020, 03:06:03 PM »
Is this what it feels like when I tell people Poetry is actually factually the #1 best Kamelot album?  :lol

It's an interesting claim, and much like the gif I can't help but admire the boldness!

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Re: Kamelot
« Reply #1188 on: June 09, 2020, 03:50:53 PM »
Yea, I really like the bonus tracks Seasons End and Pendulous Fall, those being on Ghost Opera would have really elevated it.  I think it's a solid album, but not their best.  I'd love for them to have Tommy sing Seasons End and EdenEcho (again?  I feel like he might have sung them before but ive never seen either)

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Re: Kamelot
« Reply #1189 on: June 09, 2020, 04:04:30 PM »
My fav song off ghost opera? The weird electronic remix of rule the world.
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