Black Sabbath Discussion Thread

[Mister Gold]

I'm a Tyr man, myself. Cozy Powell and Neil Murray, while not Geezer and Ward, were great, and Tony Martin had settled in nicely. Really, I think they're all great albums right up to the surprisingly dreadful Forbidden.

Yeah, the bass work isn't bad at all on Tyr. It just feels a bit 'off' for a Sabbath album to not hear Geezer on there alongside Tony, though it's by no means bad.

I was just watching a bootleg from the Tyr tour and that lineup was tight live. Tony Martin was at the top of his game and the rest of the group had a solid chemistry together. Cozy was especially great on the drums, as expected.

[MirrorMask]

And now, for that moment when a random dude praises a random obscure song: Crown of Thorns is a kickass song from Cross Purpouses 

I'd talk about a "deep cut", but come on, basically the entire Tony Martin era is a deep cut.

[Stadler]

Geezer Butler is pretty accomplished!


I might be all over some remasters. Except Forbidden.

Heh, yeah, he absolutely is. I meant to write 'most technical bassist,' but clearly I had a misstep along the way.

I'd definitely pick up Headless Cross and Tyr. I need to get a bit more used to Crossed Purposes before deciding whether I'd get it or not. Though if Tony were to release it in a deluxe edition with a CD version of one of the several live shows from the CP tour with Geezer as a bonus disk, I'd probably buy it in a heartbeat. I watched the CP lineup play Symptom of the Universe live on YouTube earlier and damn would that be nice to have to listen to at leisure.

Well, there was a CD/VHS release not long after the Cross Purposes album called "Cross Purposes Live" and it's pretty damn good.  I would hope that the deluxe version would have the Japanese-only track "What's The Use?" and the full VHS set list of the CP-Live set (the CD cuts three songs for space). 

[TAC]

I'm still pissed at myself for skipping those shows.

[Stadler]

For me, in the Martin era:

Cross Purposes
Tyr
Forbidden
The Eternal Idol
Headless Cross

I actually love a couple tunes on Forbidden; "Can't Get Close Enough" and "Rusty Angels" I think are excellent.  You can have "The Illusion of Power"; that's an embarrassment.

[bl5150]

I'm a Tyr man, myself. Cozy Powell and Neil Murray, while not Geezer and Ward, were great, and Tony Martin had settled in nicely. Really, I think they're all great albums right up to the surprisingly dreadful Forbidden.

Yep Tyr for me too.   I never managed to get into anything much on Cross Purposes.

[wolfking]

A lot of you know my thoughts on this era already.  My fav Sabbath era.  TYR for me too, closely followed by Headless Cross.

Eternal Idol seem to be the forgotten one out of all those records.  Forbidden is more remembered for the wrong reasons.  Born to Lose, The Shining, Ancient Warrior, Glory Ride, lots to like on that record.

[Mister Gold]

A lot of you know my thoughts on this era already.  My fav Sabbath era.  TYR for me too, closely followed by Headless Cross.

Eternal Idol seem to be the forgotten one out of all those records.  Forbidden is more remembered for the wrong reasons.  Born to Lose, The Shining, Ancient Warrior, Glory Ride, lots to like on that record.

I'm starting to see why! TYR and Headless Cross both have some ridiculously tight songwriting and musicianship. The Martin era definitely feels like the proggiest era of the band too, which I really like.

[jjrock88]

The Dio era of Sabbath is my favorite easily by miles and miles, but the Martin era is definitely underrated and great.  Headless Cross and Eternal Idol are the best of the five Martin albums IMO; Forbidden would be easily be fifth place.  With Forbidden , there are a handful of great songs but the rapping on the opening track is just something I'm not into.

I know Tony has had health issue, but I'm curious to see what these deluxe editions of Headless Cross, Tyr, Cross Purposes and Forbidden will actually contain, if they happen.  I would say that Moscow performance from 1989 was the peak of the Marin era, so that should be included if possible.  Would also be cool if Tony and Tony could get together for a new track or two.

[wolfking]

The Dio era of Sabbath is my favorite easily by miles and miles, but the Martin era is definitely underrated and great.  Headless Cross and Eternal Idol are the best of the five Martin albums IMO; Forbidden would be easily be fifth place.  With Forbidden , there are a handful of great songs but the rapping on the opening track is just something I'm not into.

I know Tony has had health issue, but I'm curious to see what these deluxe editions of Headless Cross, Tyr, Cross Purposes and Forbidden will actually contain, if they happen.  I would say that Moscow performance from 1989 was the peak of the Marin era, so that should be included if possible.  Would also be cool if Tony and Tony could get together for a new track or two.

I've got that on DVD, great show.  I've also got Cross Purposes live on DVD but it only contains half the songs.  Tony was sick on that tour but I also had an old copy on VHS which had the whole set and I loved it.  I really would like the full set released on DVD.  Including those shows on these reissues would awesome.

[Mister Gold]

The Dio era of Sabbath is my favorite easily by miles and miles, but the Martin era is definitely underrated and great.  Headless Cross and Eternal Idol are the best of the five Martin albums IMO; Forbidden would be easily be fifth place.  With Forbidden , there are a handful of great songs but the rapping on the opening track is just something I'm not into.

I know Tony has had health issue, but I'm curious to see what these deluxe editions of Headless Cross, Tyr, Cross Purposes and Forbidden will actually contain, if they happen.  I would say that Moscow performance from 1989 was the peak of the Marin era, so that should be included if possible.  Would also be cool if Tony and Tony could get together for a new track or two.

I know I'm just splitting hairs here, but I'd argue the Martin era's peak in live shows might actually be the Tyr tour one year later in 1990. It's hard to say for sure, since there's no professional level recordings of that period as far as I know, but the couple of bootlegs I've heard were pretty terrific performances. Either way, that live lineup would have been one hell of a show to see in person in 1989/1990. Tony Martin in his prime, Iommi working with a solid lineup and Cozy Powell on drums? Divine stuff right there.

That said, I think the Cross Purposes tour probably had the best setlist. I never understood why the band never brought out songs like Sabbath Bloody Sabbath or Symptom of the Universe in the Dio era or waited so long to play those tracks with Tony Martin. The vocal melodies on those songs (especially SBS) seem far better suited to Dio or Martin than Ozzy and could have made for dynamite performances live.

[El Barto]

That said, I think the Cross Purposes tour probably had the best setlist. I never understood why the band never brought out songs like Sabbath Bloody Sabbath or Symptom of the Universe in the Dio era or waited so long to play those tracks with Tony Martin. The vocal melodies on those songs (especially SBS) seem far better suited to Dio or Martin than Ozzy and could have made for dynamite performances live.

Strangely, the Sabbath singer that could sing every one of the songs best is the one that nobody remembers. Ray Gillen sang Ozzy's stuff, Dio's stuff, and even Gillan's and Hughes's stuff perfectly. None of them, despite being better singers, could ever really capture what Ozzy did, except Ray. The Montreal show really covered all the ground and he nailed every bit of it.

[MirrorMask]

All of Ray's history with Sabbath was weird as hell, and he came just at the wrong time.

Sabbath was basically - and unofficially - done, Tony Iommi wanted to do a solo album and so he got Glenn Hughes, but he was forced to call it a Sabbath album and Glenn - in a not so excellent moment of his life - wasn't up for that.

He had to fire Glenn Huges in the middle of a tour, he hired Ray Gillen who just happened to pass by basically, ended the tour with him, and then the Eternal Idol album got stuck in the musical equivalent of development hell, with a lot of band members coming and going, to the point that Ray got fed up and left as well.

Definitively being in the right place, but at the wrong time.

[pg1067]

That said, I think the Cross Purposes tour probably had the best setlist. I never understood why the band never brought out songs like Sabbath Bloody Sabbath or Symptom of the Universe in the Dio era or waited so long to play those tracks with Tony Martin. The vocal melodies on those songs (especially SBS) seem far better suited to Dio or Martin than Ozzy and could have made for dynamite performances live.

Strangely, the Sabbath singer that could sing every one of the songs best is the one that nobody remembers. Ray Gillen sang Ozzy's stuff, Dio's stuff, and even Gillan's and Hughes's stuff perfectly. None of them, despite being better singers, could ever really capture what Ozzy did, except Ray. The Montreal show really covered all the ground and he nailed every bit of it.

I'm trying to figure out why that video refers to Montreal when it was actually recorded in London (England, not London, Ontario, Canada).

That aside, Gillen's pitch control was ridiculous!  I listened to about 30 minutes and don't think I heard a single note out of tune or that even sounded strained.  Very impressive.

[Mister Gold]

That said, I think the Cross Purposes tour probably had the best setlist. I never understood why the band never brought out songs like Sabbath Bloody Sabbath or Symptom of the Universe in the Dio era or waited so long to play those tracks with Tony Martin. The vocal melodies on those songs (especially SBS) seem far better suited to Dio or Martin than Ozzy and could have made for dynamite performances live.

Strangely, the Sabbath singer that could sing every one of the songs best is the one that nobody remembers. Ray Gillen sang Ozzy's stuff, Dio's stuff, and even Gillan's and Hughes's stuff perfectly. None of them, despite being better singers, could ever really capture what Ozzy did, except Ray. The Montreal show really covered all the ground and he nailed every bit of it.

Oh for sure. Ray Gillen is actually the reason I ever started to slowly branch out and check out the non-Dio/Ozzy/Ian Gillan Sabbath material after I heard a bootleg of his take on Heaven & Hell years back. On a technical level, I think it's fair to say Ray was probably the best singer the band ever had. It's a shame he didn't stick around long.

That said, I'd say that Ian Gillan typically did a great job with Ozzy-era songs live, even if I'm not too fond of his takes on Neon Knights or Heaven & Hell. Gillan had a similar nasal-y quality to his voice, but with far more range to make theatrical changes that helped add to the song. Gillan's take on "Black Sabbath," for instance, is almost certainly my favorite of the whole lot.

[wolfking]

The Dio era of Sabbath is my favorite easily by miles and miles, but the Martin era is definitely underrated and great.  Headless Cross and Eternal Idol are the best of the five Martin albums IMO; Forbidden would be easily be fifth place.  With Forbidden , there are a handful of great songs but the rapping on the opening track is just something I'm not into.

I know Tony has had health issue, but I'm curious to see what these deluxe editions of Headless Cross, Tyr, Cross Purposes and Forbidden will actually contain, if they happen.  I would say that Moscow performance from 1989 was the peak of the Marin era, so that should be included if possible.  Would also be cool if Tony and Tony could get together for a new track or two.

I know I'm just splitting hairs here, but I'd argue the Martin era's peak in live shows might actually be the Tyr tour one year later in 1990. It's hard to say for sure, since there's no professional level recordings of that period as far as I know, but the couple of bootlegs I've heard were pretty terrific performances. Either way, that live lineup would have been one hell of a show to see in person in 1989/1990. Tony Martin in his prime, Iommi working with a solid lineup and Cozy Powell on drums? Divine stuff right there.

That said, I think the Cross Purposes tour probably had the best setlist. I never understood why the band never brought out songs like Sabbath Bloody Sabbath or Symptom of the Universe in the Dio era or waited so long to play those tracks with Tony Martin. The vocal melodies on those songs (especially SBS) seem far better suited to Dio or Martin than Ozzy and could have made for dynamite performances live.

I've never heard anything from the TYR tour.  Will definitely have to try and track something down.

[Mister Gold]

The Dio era of Sabbath is my favorite easily by miles and miles, but the Martin era is definitely underrated and great.  Headless Cross and Eternal Idol are the best of the five Martin albums IMO; Forbidden would be easily be fifth place.  With Forbidden , there are a handful of great songs but the rapping on the opening track is just something I'm not into.

I know Tony has had health issue, but I'm curious to see what these deluxe editions of Headless Cross, Tyr, Cross Purposes and Forbidden will actually contain, if they happen.  I would say that Moscow performance from 1989 was the peak of the Marin era, so that should be included if possible.  Would also be cool if Tony and Tony could get together for a new track or two.

I know I'm just splitting hairs here, but I'd argue the Martin era's peak in live shows might actually be the Tyr tour one year later in 1990. It's hard to say for sure, since there's no professional level recordings of that period as far as I know, but the couple of bootlegs I've heard were pretty terrific performances. Either way, that live lineup would have been one hell of a show to see in person in 1989/1990. Tony Martin in his prime, Iommi working with a solid lineup and Cozy Powell on drums? Divine stuff right there.

That said, I think the Cross Purposes tour probably had the best setlist. I never understood why the band never brought out songs like Sabbath Bloody Sabbath or Symptom of the Universe in the Dio era or waited so long to play those tracks with Tony Martin. The vocal melodies on those songs (especially SBS) seem far better suited to Dio or Martin than Ozzy and could have made for dynamite performances live.

I've never heard anything from the TYR tour.  Will definitely have to try and track something down.

Here's the bootlegs that I've been listening to from that tour!

Wolverhampton 1990: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ep8E7o77TEM
Hammersmith 1990: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q239HhcsTIM
Amsterdam 1990 (with video): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLqF4ROxJIc

[wolfking]

Watched quite a few songs from that Amsterdam one.  Jeez, I didn't know Tony ever had those pipes live at any time with the band.  He's ripping it up.  Still a few melody variatikns to avoid the highs but a lot of mrlodies replicating originals.  The Dio stuff sounded great and, Sabbath Stones and Headless Cross especially were amazing.

[Mister Gold]

Watched quite a few songs from that Amsterdam one.  Jeez, I didn't know Tony ever had those pipes live at any time with the band.  He's ripping it up.  Still a few melody variatikns to avoid the highs but a lot of mrlodies replicating originals.  The Dio stuff sounded great and, Sabbath Stones and Headless Cross especially were amazing.

Yep! It's a little hard to go from Tony Martin 1990 nailing it live like that to the improved setlists of 1994 with a sadly noticeable step down in live performance from Tony. Obviously he doesn't sound horrible in 1994, but it'd be amazing to hear 1990!Tony singing SBS and Symptom of the Universe right alongside those epic Dio era performances and Sabbath Stones and Headless Cross.

[Stadler]

I get it, he's a singer and should take care of himself, but I know for the two shows I saw, it was February in the north east, and they weren't exactly playing cozy arenas (the place I saw them in, The Sting in New Britain, I think shared a bar with a strip club).  For one of the shows, I went with a friend and we got a foot of snow that night and his car was towed (snow ban!).   So in the typical "Murphy's Law Sabbath Way", I think Martin was under the gun from the get go.  He struggled a bit both shows, but he was visibly sick in the second show. 

[Mister Gold]

I get it, he's a singer and should take care of himself, but I know for the two shows I saw, it was February in the north east, and they weren't exactly playing cozy arenas (the place I saw them in, The Sting in New Britain, I think shared a bar with a strip club).  For one of the shows, I went with a friend and we got a foot of snow that night and his car was towed (snow ban!).   So in the typical "Murphy's Law Sabbath Way", I think Martin was under the gun from the get go.  He struggled a bit both shows, but he was visibly sick in the second show.

Yeah, I'm not blaming Tony or anything! He had a rough time during the 1994 tour from what I've heard. It's more that I just wish we could hear him singing certain Sabbath classics when he was at his peak. Nothing against him or the rest of the band.

[Podaar]

Amsterdam 1990 (with video): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLqF4ROxJIc

I just watched this concert.   

[wolfking]

I read he was sick for the majority of that 94 tour.

[TAC]

Hasn't Tony Martin pretty much done jack shit since his stint in Sabbath ended? Why is that?

[wolfking]

Hasn't Tony Martin pretty much done jack shit since his stint in Sabbath ended? Why is that?

Did a solo album in 2005 which was rubbish.  He also sang with Aldo Giuntini. I have one of those albums, number 3 I think which is pretty damn good actually.  He also did the Cage albums with Dario Mollo.  Again I have one album which wasn't bad also.

The Rondinelli album was quite good too.  I think Brent brought my attention to that one.

The song he did with Magnus was great too and he does 2 songs on the upcoming one.

Dunno why he hasn't been more prolific than he has post Sabbath though.

[Mister Gold]

Amsterdam 1990 (with video): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLqF4ROxJIc

I just watched this concert.   

It's so great! Love when part of the roof collapses behind the band near the end of the show. Very visibly one heck of a show!

[MirrorMask]

One of the suggestions of YT for that Amsterdam concert is this performance of Headless Cross by Tony in 2014, excellent sound and good performance from him:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbVToMjGu5o

[Mister Gold]

One of the suggestions of YT for that Amsterdam concert is this performance of Headless Cross by Tony in 2014, excellent sound and good performance from him:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbVToMjGu5o

Yeah, Tony's tone is perfect here, though it's clear he can't hit the insane high notes anymore and seems to play it a bit safe how long he holds a lot of notes. Still, he's making great use of what he's still got here and sounds great.

[jjrock88]

Agree, he sounds really good on that one!

[Madman Shepherd]

He had put together a band called Headless Cross that did some shows in England with Geoff Nichols in the band along with Tony's son on guitar. They played tiny clubs. He even tried to put together a US tour that was canceled about 3 weeks after it was announced.

He can still do the high notes in the studio, except not with as much power.

Iommi and him have talked about getting together and doing a side project. Wish it would happen.

[ProfessorPeart]

Hasn't Tony Martin pretty much done jack shit since his stint in Sabbath ended? Why is that?

Did a solo album in 2005 which was rubbish.  He also sang with Aldo Giuntini. I have one of those albums, number 3 I think which is pretty damn good actually.  He also did the Cage albums with Dario Mollo.  Again I have one album which wasn't bad also.

The Rondinelli album was quite good too.  I think Brent brought my attention to that one.

The song he did with Magnus was great too and he does 2 songs on the upcoming one.

Dunno why he hasn't been more prolific than he has post Sabbath though.

Yeah, he does a lot of guest spots and I have sought out most of those tracks. The first song I ever heard Tony on was the track he did on the second Star One record in 2010. Loved his vocals on that. The majority of the output has been with Giuntini and Mollo. Mollo also produced all 3 Giuntini albums that Tony sang on.

These are all of the albums that I have that Tony handles all lead vocals on:

Giuntini (sometimes also called Giuntini Project, have seen it both ways)
Giuntini Project II (1999)
Giuntini Project III (2006)
Giuntini Project IV (2013) - https://youtu.be/yB1IXjDDwCQ

Dario Mollo / Tony Martin
The Cage (1999)
The Cage 2 (2002)
The Third Cage (2012) - https://youtu.be/4y83C_DX81E

Silver Horses
Silver Horses (2012)

Silver Horses is a 70's kind of rock with a heavy Zeppelin vibe.

[wolfking]

He had put together a band called Headless Cross that did some shows in England with Geoff Nichols in the band along with Tony's son on guitar. They played tiny clubs. He even tried to put together a US tour that was canceled about 3 weeks after it was announced.

He can still do the high notes in the studio, except not with as much power.

Iommi and him have talked about getting together and doing a side project. Wish it would happen.

I really wished the 'black' project with Andy LaRocque and Magnus Rosen eventuated.  That would have been special.

[Madman Shepherd]

Oh man. I forgot all about that. Yeah, that would have been great.

After listening to the Amsterdam bootleg and hearing how great Tony Martin sounded, I realize he was blessed with a great voice and amazing range but I doubt he was ever trained properly. From the Cross Purposes tour onward, he could never hit the high notes again. Aging has something to do with it but I also wouldn't doubt if he prematurely screwed up his voice.

I'm still a fan though.

[Mister Gold]

Oh man. I forgot all about that. Yeah, that would have been great.

After listening to the Amsterdam bootleg and hearing how great Tony Martin sounded, I realize he was blessed with a great voice and amazing range but I doubt he was ever trained properly. From the Cross Purposes tour onward, he could never hit the high notes again. Aging has something to do with it but I also wouldn't doubt if he prematurely screwed up his voice.

I'm still a fan though.

Yeah, it's hard to tell what exactly happened. Hell, for all we know, Tony might have had a similar run in with food poisoning or something of that ilk in his time out of Sabbath during the Dehumanizer era like James LaBrie did after Awake and never quite recovered from it.

Speaking of Dehumanizer... god, I love that album. The OG Martin era was terrific and listening to Tyr makes me wonder where the band might've gone had the reunion not happened, but Dehumanizer might be my favorite of the Dio era. The band's never been heavier and I love Dio's work on that album, both vocally and lyrically. Which in turn makes me wonder where those guys might've gone had Tony and Geezer not fallen hook, line and sinker for Ozzy and Sharon's "Original Lineup Reunion Tour" bait at the end of 1992...

[wolfking]

I think Computer God might hsve been the first Sabbath song I heard.  My guitar teacher put it on a mix tape for me.  Blew me away, that voice.