Black Sabbath Discussion Thread

[wolfking]

Tony Iommi shits all over Page.

No question.

[TAC]

I think the Page vs Iommi debate is fascinating.

[CrimsonSunrise]

Iommi = Innovator
Page = Imitator

What??  One... everyone imitates to an extent.  It's called influence yes? Page's innovations have influenced musicians overall more than Tony's.   Bottom line, while I didn't know it was a question of longevity, Page's studio accolades simply are in a different league than Iommi's.  If you go by longevity, then I guess Keith Richards is better than Tony yeah?

Just how do you know for anything resembling an actual fact that Page is more of an influence than Iommi?
Fact is that Iommi invented the heavy metal riff and sound, which influence is genre defining and without, metal would/may not be the same as we know it today.
The blues that Page plays, was around long before him and long after his creative output dried up.
What has Page done, of any great note since LZ split, besides rehashing the Zep back catalogue numerous times?
While Iommi is still cranking out those unique sounding riffs and playing live.

My quantifier is what I've heard bands say over the decades as to who influenced them.  I've heard many more say Page than Iommi.  Is that absolute?  Of course not, just what I've heard.  Back to the longevity thing.  Doesn't matter a bit.  Like I said, going by your logic, Richards is more creative and relevant than Iommi.  Do you believe that?  I sure don't.  Also, I never said Page was the "Father of Metal"  You're correct, he's more blues based.  That doesn't mean he was not unique.  As far as Tony being the father of the metal riff?  Probably so ... but... there are others who played some pretty heavy riffs back in the  60's, and even earlier.  I love Tony and Sabbath, just don't see the necessity of trashing Page, a legendary guitarist.

[gazinwales]

I've heard many things over the years too, but it does not make them true.
I never insinuated that you stated anything about Page being the father of metal.
Page has never been anything related to metal, that is common knowledge.

No Iommi is widely regarded as the father of metal, and if there are 'others who played heavy riffs in the 1960's'', then please name them?

My intention was never to trash Page, but he has been accused many times of plagiarism, while Iommi never has (except maybe his own riffs).

Once again I'll state that Iommi has been prolific over the past 30 years, while Page has done next to nothing.
Why you are adding Keith Richards to the equation is baffling to say the least.

[CrimsonSunrise]

I named 2, 60's guitarists who are considered by some to be fore fathers of Metal.  Well...I guess we're just not listening to each other...   pointless to continue ... 

[KevShmev]

No Iommi is widely regarded as the father of metal, and if there are 'others who played heavy riffs in the 1960's'', then please name them?
 

Pete Townshend.

[TAC]

No Iommi is widely regarded as the father of metal, and if there are 'others who played heavy riffs in the 1960's'', then please name them?
 

Pete Townshend.

Who?





 

[Podaar]

I accidentally tripped into listening to Technical Ecstasy for the first time in 25 or more years. I've forgotten how much I enjoyed this album and still to this day can't figure out why it is so universally panned.

 

[TAC]

I accidentally tripped into listening to Technical Ecstasy for the first time in 25 or more years. I've forgotten how much I enjoyed this album and still to this day can't figure out why it is so universally panned.

 

So you haven't listened to it in 25 years and even then it was by accident.

Hmm..

 

[Orbert]

Hey, he said he was tripping.  You do all kinds of crazy stuff when you're tripping.

 

[Orbert]

Oh yeah, I like Technical Ecstasy, too.  I remember when it came out, I thought the cover was so, so cool.  Now... not so much, although I guess it's still kinda cool.

[jjrock88]

TE is a good release.  I would say "Dirty Women" is my favorite Ozzy era Sabbath song.

[LudwigVan]

Interesting how some of the music on Techical Ecstacy and Never Say Die foreshadows Ozzy's solo stuff. Some of those songs would fit right into Bark at the Moon or Ultimate Sin.

[TAC]

Interesting how some of the music on Techical Ecstacy and Never Say Die foreshadows Ozzy's solo stuff. Some of those songs would fit right into Bark at the Moon or Ultimate Sin.

Maybe Ultimate Sin, but I don't hear anything on those albums that would fit on Bark At The moon.

[LudwigVan]

Interesting how some of the music on Techical Ecstacy and Never Say Die foreshadows Ozzy's solo stuff. Some of those songs would fit right into Bark at the Moon or Ultimate Sin.

Maybe Ultimate Sin, but I don't hear anything on those albums that would fit on Bark At The moon.

Okay I'll give you that Mr. Picayune .

[Podaar]

Saturday was a gorgeous, sunny, Autumn day and while driving home from the locally brewery with a growler full of Pilsner for the football game, Fairies Wear Boots came on the shuffle.

Man, what a great intro to a song. It perfectly builds and still kicks my ass after all these years. 

[Orbert]

[Podaar]

Due to a conversation with Stadler in the "7 songs in 7 days" thread, I listened to Technical Ecstasy a couple of times today. It has been a while.

"She's Gone" blew me away. Damn... Ozzie's voice gives this song a twisted vibe that slays me.

[Zydar]

They'll be releasing an EP in two days, only to be sold at their final tour.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_End_(EP)

[jjrock88]

I'll be seeing them live on the 27th.

Interested to see what the set list will be.  The usual supects will be played, but it sounds like a few obscure tracks that havent been played since the 70's may make an appearance.

[Stadler]

Due to a conversation with Stadler in the "7 songs in 7 days" thread, I listened to Technical Ecstasy a couple of times today. It has been a while.

"She's Gone" blew me away. Damn... Ozzie's voice gives this song a twisted vibe that slays me.

I know it's a much maligned album, and I know the band doesn't think too highly of it (though having said that, they do play songs from it on occasion. usually Dirty Women) but I love that album.  It's brighter than the sludge-fests that came later, and I absolutely consider Geezer to be one of my top three favorite lyricists.   I think "Gypsy" is a top ten Sabbath song.   

[TAC]

Due to a conversation with Stadler in the "7 songs in 7 days" thread, I listened to Technical Ecstasy a couple of times today. It has been a while.

"She's Gone" blew me away. Damn... Ozzie's voice gives this song a twisted vibe that slays me.

Yeah I just gave it a spin as well. I cannot even remember the last time I played it. In fact, I've never bothered to even get it on CD. But I will now.

I really enjoyed my listen, except for It's Alright.

  I think "Gypsy" is a top ten Sabbath song.   

Damn, it really is pretty awesome. What a hidden jewel. Like I said, maybe 25 years since I listened.

Gypsy musically reminds me a lot of the original Alice Cooper band, a band that was really ahead of its time and severely underrated.

[Kotowboy]

Iommi : " it'll be great to finish with all the same guys we started with..."




Umm.......

[jjrock88]

Iommi : " it'll be great to finish with all the same guys we started with..."




Umm.......

yeah seems to be missing an important part lol

[El Barto]

I honestly prefer Never Say Die to TE, mostly on the basis of Junior's Eye's, and to a lesser extent the title track and Johnny Blade. Aside from Dirty Women there's nothing on TE that really grabs me, and that's mostly limited to seeing Iommi play it live.

Pretty sure I have a ticket to see the final tour somewhere, but since they went on sail a year before the show I've forgotten about it. I probably wouldn't have bothered, honestly, as I have a real beef with Sharon Osbourne's entire existence (God damned shame her father's dogs didn't get her, but at least he tried) and I'm pretty annoyed about the Bill Ward thing. But, tickets were reasonable and it's important to see Geezer and Iommi again before they croak. My preference would have been to buy scalper tickets so as not to support that filthy whore, but I wasn't in charge of the ticket procurement.


edit:

It's brighter than the sludge-fests that came later, and I absolutely consider Geezer to be one of my top three favorite lyricists.

Not sure what constitutes the sludgefest, although Born Again is certainly pretty dark. Personally, I consider the first few Tony Martin albums, TYR in particular, to be among the best they've done. Not on a par with SBS and Sabotage, but as good as or better than everything else.

[jjrock88]

I honestly prefer Never Say Die to TE, mostly on the basis of Junior's Eye's, and to a lesser extent the title track and Johnny Blade. Aside from Dirty Women there's nothing on TE that really grabs me, and that's mostly limited to seeing Iommi play it live.

Pretty sure I have a ticket to see the final tour somewhere, but since they went on sail a year before the show I've forgotten about it. I probably wouldn't have bothered, honestly, as I have a real beef with Sharon Osbourne's entire existence (God damned shame her father's dogs didn't get her, but at least he tried) and I'm pretty annoyed about the Bill Ward thing. But, tickets were reasonable and it's important to see Geezer and Iommi again before they croak. My preference would have been to buy scalper tickets so as not to support that filthy whore, but I wasn't in charge of the ticket procurement.

"Dirty Women" is not only the standout for me from TE, but one of, if not my favorite, song from the Ozzy era.

[Zydar]

Never Say Die is such an underrated Sabbath album, lots of great tracks there.

[Stadler]

edit:

It's brighter than the sludge-fests that came later, and I absolutely consider Geezer to be one of my top three favorite lyricists.

Not sure what constitutes the sludgefest, although Born Again is certainly pretty dark. Personally, I consider the first few Tony Martin albums, TYR in particular, to be among the best they've done. Not on a par with SBS and Sabotage, but as good as or better than everything else.

I love the martin era as well; I was referring to much of Dehumanizer and the Heaven And Hell record.  It seemed like when they reunited with Dio it just became "how heavy can it be?".   Sabbath is not known for it's subtlety, but it is the subtle moments I like best.  The intro to Spiral Architect.  Over To You.   Gypsy.   Tomorrow's Dream. 

[El Barto]

Dehumanizer is one of my very favorites, but you're right that it's not subtle. There seems to be some genuine anger going on there. Still, I remains one of the standouts from Dio's entire catalog, IMO. The only problem I have with Dehumanizer is that it prevented a followup to TYR with Cozy/Niel Murray. Those two were awesome together, but five years later they cranked out some real crap with Forbidden. 

[Podaar]

"I" is completely awesome. Good call there, El Barto.

[TAC]

My favorite tune from Dehumanizer is Buried Alive.

[jjrock88]

"I" is a major standout for me. Love the version from H&H Neon Knights live album!

[TAC]

"I" is a major standout for me. Love the version from H&H Neon Knights live album!

That album is a tour de force for both Dio and Iommi.

[chaossystem]

Dehumanizer is one of my very favorites, but you're right that it's not subtle. There seems to be some genuine anger going on there. Still, I remains one of the standouts from Dio's entire catalog, IMO. The only problem I have with Dehumanizer is that it prevented a followup to TYR with Cozy/Niel Murray. Those two were awesome together, but five years later they cranked out some real crap with Forbidden.

You know it's funny you mentioned the lack of subtlety and presence of anger. I've often thought that Dio's next album, Strange Highways was less subtle and a lot angrier than what he had done before, and I've often thought that it was a reflection of the Black Sabbath thing not working out at that time.

[TAC]

Dehumanizer is one of my very favorites, but you're right that it's not subtle. There seems to be some genuine anger going on there. Still, I remains one of the standouts from Dio's entire catalog, IMO. The only problem I have with Dehumanizer is that it prevented a followup to TYR with Cozy/Niel Murray. Those two were awesome together, but five years later they cranked out some real crap with Forbidden.

You know it's funny you mentioned the lack of subtlety and presence of anger. I've often thought that Dio's next album, Strange Highways was less subtle and a lot angrier than what he had done before, and I've often thought that it was a reflection of the Black Sabbath thing not working out at that time.

Well they have a similar vibe.