Black Sabbath Discussion Thread

[wolfking]

Cross Purposes is an awesome disc; hopefully one day it will be re-released, just like the rest of the TM albums.

Yeah, I'd wish they would do a re-release package for Headless and TYR.

[NotePad]

Jerusalem is fuckin awesome. The style of Tyr is so different for a Sabbath album. There are so many people who, if they heard HC or Tyr, probably wouldn't believe they're Sabbath albums if they weren't already aware. Iommi needs more credit as a guitarist and songwriter. He should be up there with Jimmy Page and co. From what i can tell, he's not usually put in the same category as those guys.

[gazinwales]

Notepad: after reading Mick Wall's recent Sabbath book 'Symptom of the Universe', your comments are not surprising.
Since day one Sabbath got no credit for anything from the critics, and have always been treated as 'second class' by the industry.
Iommi is an incredible guitarist, and those who know metal and know guitar, he is an icon, legend and unique.
He does things that most guitarist can only dream of, get sounds and has a heaviness that no one can match.

As you eluded to, during the Martin era was responsible for some incredible songwriting, bar one album with Geezer did it all on his own
with writing some of his best riffs and songs.

As for the 4 remaining Martin era albums that are long deleted, I'm sure it's in Iommi hands when these are released.
I know that Joe Seigler from black-sabbth.com is in Iommi's management ear about what should be on any re-issues.
I reckon they would be held back until the whole Sabbath 13 album, touring cycle, 13 album re-issue (with the 4 remaining 13 session unreleased tracks)
is done, as to avoid any confusion with the current line up.

[NotePad]

Now that I'v been digging really deep into Sabbath, I'm starting to see that the most impressive performer on any of their albums was Iommi. It's clear he's the heart and soul of the band. Ozzy is not the Prince of Darkness, Ton Iommi is.

[philmcson]

Dammit, show Iommi proper respect and call him the Creator of darkness! 

[JayOctavarium]

So I've done a little listening to Martin era songs on youtube.

Fucking A... this is awesome

[wolfking]

Jerusalem is fuckin awesome. The style of Tyr is so different for a Sabbath album. There are so many people who, if they heard HC or Tyr, probably wouldn't believe they're Sabbath albums if they weren't already aware. Iommi needs more credit as a guitarist and songwriter. He should be up there with Jimmy Page and co. From what i can tell, he's not usually put in the same category as those guys.

Iommi blows Page out of the water.

[bl5150]

If the Zepheads see that there'll be trouble 

Re Martin era ......my first Sabbs album was actually Tyr and (aside from the first couple of songs) there's not anything in their catalogue that I like much better tbh.    Very good album.

[wolfking]

If the Zepheads see that there'll be trouble 

I aint scared, it's true. 

[JayOctavarium]

Iommi blows Page out of the water.

I love Led Zeppelin more than I will probably ever love Sabbath and I kinda agree. Page is awesome... but in the studio setting. Live he just sounds so sloppy IMO

[Jaq]

In his prime, Iommi couldn't touch Page for soloing.  From 1969 to 1973 or so, Page played fantastic solos, especially live, then the heroin made his fingers sticky. If you heard Page in his later days, yeah, he's very sloppy and sticky fingered, but in the early days, he was awesome.

Page however couldn't touch Iommi for writing memorable riffs at any part of his career, though, and that's what Iommi is known for: he's a riff machine.

[NotePad]

Tony Iommi is the king of writing memorable riffs. For example, When he's with Dio and doing the Sabbath-dio/H&H thing, he makes it look so easy. I noticed while listening to TDYK that the songs are more of a tradional song structure then that on 13. It's seems so easy for Iommi  to come up with these awesome riffs that sound so dark and compile them into songs. I could see it being very easy for him to do another H&H album, or something like it. With 13 the riffing is more spread out. But just as awesome.

Am i wrong if i say i hear some Zepplin influence in some of the early Sabbath stuff with Ozzy?

[LudwigVan]

Oooh-kay.. Jimmy Page vs. Tony Iommi 

I'm a Zep-head for sure but I wouldn't be one to rage over those who favored Iommi.  Both are visionary guitarists in their own right.   I just think that Page embraced a wider scope of styles, which worked to bring Zep's music to a much broader audience.  Iommi focused on developing that very specific sound that has come to be known as heavy metal.  As someone already suggested, Iommi is the true Prince of Darkness when it comes to heavy music.  Page, on the other hand, had his philosophy of injecting 'light and shade' in Zep's overall sound.

[gazinwales]

Biggest difference for me is that Iommi is still writing killer riffs and playing live.
Page has really done nothing since LZ split.
Iommi is a living and practicing legend, while Page living off his past works.

[TAC]

Oooh-kay.. Jimmy Page vs. Tony Iommi 

I'm a Zep-head for sure but I wouldn't be one to rage over those who favored Iommi.  Both are visionary guitarists in their own right.   I just think that Page embraced a wider scope of styles, which worked to bring Zep's music to a much broader audience.  Iommi focused on developing that very specific sound that has come to be known as heavy metal.  As someone already suggested, Iommi is the true Prince of Darkness when it comes to heavy music.  Page, on the other hand, had his philosophy of injecting 'light and shade' in Zep's overall sound.

I'm glad you found this conversation. I meant to bring it to your attention the other day.

[ThatOneGuy2112]

Oooh-kay.. Jimmy Page vs. Tony Iommi 

I'm a Zep-head for sure but I wouldn't be one to rage over those who favored Iommi.  Both are visionary guitarists in their own right.   I just think that Page embraced a wider scope of styles, which worked to bring Zep's music to a much broader audience.  Iommi focused on developing that very specific sound that has come to be known as heavy metal.  As someone already suggested, Iommi is the true Prince of Darkness when it comes to heavy music.  Page, on the other hand, had his philosophy of injecting 'light and shade' in Zep's overall sound.

Wow. Pretty much this.

And I've always seen it as:

Ozzy is Ozzy. Iommi is Black Sabbath.

[Kotowboy]

Also - Iommi pretty much spearheaded a new genre whilst Page arguably stole a load of blues songs and turned them up.

And I *like* Led Zep !

[ozzy554]

new footage from 1970 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6l0Co3EE6k

[El Barto]

I guess they were opening for the touring company of The Wiz. Good footage, though.

[TAC]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6-Z0gKTpCM

[Lowdz]

Just listened to Tyr and Cross Purposes for the first time, and Headless Cross for the first time in nearly 2 decades. Surprised to find I really enjoyed them. Tony Martin was awesome.
When do these albums get the Deluxe treatment? Will be a definite buy for me.

[ozzy554]

Just listened to Tyr and Cross Purposes for the first time, and Headless Cross for the first time in nearly 2 decades. Surprised to find I really enjoyed them. Tony Martin was awesome.
When do these albums get the Deluxe treatment? Will be a definite buy for me.

Same here, i've always found that entire era to be severely underrated.

There is a deluxe edition of the eternal idol which comes with the alternate version with Ray Gillen on vocals.

[Lowdz]

Yeah I've got that. Gillen was a great singer.

[TAC]

Lots of good material in the Martin era. I cmpletely disregarded it as it was happening. Thought it was a joke that they were out as "Black Sabbath". Passed on seeing them with Martin a number of times. I remember reading a lot of positive reviews on the albums, but I just couldnt give it the time of day. I really wish I had.while I did see Cozy Powell live a couple of times, it wouldve been awesome to see him with Iommi.

[bl5150]

Cross Purposes doesn't do much for me but I'm a fan of Tyr , especially the last 2/3rds.......

[wolfking]

Martin era = Best Sabbath.

[jjrock88]

Martin era = Best Sabbath.

A close second behind Dio for me!

[ThatOneGuy2112]

Nothing will ever beat the first four albums with Ozzy (with the possible exception of Heaven and Hell), but the Martin era is underrated for sure.

[TAC]

Martin era = Best Sabbath.

A close second behind Dio for me!

Over the Ozzy era? Wow!

[Lowdz]

Martin era = Best Sabbath.

A close second behind Dio for me!

Over the Ozzy era? Wow!

DIO for me, never a huge BS fan with Ozzy, though there best tracks are awesome there's lots of stuff I don't like.

[CrimsonSunrise]

Martin era = Best Sabbath.

A close second behind Dio for me!

Over the Ozzy era? Wow!

+1  Dio era over Ozzy.  Not to say I don't love early Sab, cause I do, but Dio's Sab is a whole different beast.  As far as the Page remarks earlier.... Jay covered it well.  In the studio Page is the master, and sloppy live a good percentage of the time.  That being said, weighing everything out... Page is much better than Tony IMO.

[gazinwales]

Easy to sum up for me, Iommi still creating new music.
Page, since the demise of Zep has done buggar all, a couple of albums with The Firm, Coverdale and little else.

Iommi = Innovator
Page = Imitator

[CrimsonSunrise]

Iommi = Innovator
Page = Imitator

What??  One... everyone imitates to an extent.  It's called influence yes? Page's innovations have influenced musicians overall more than Tony's.   Bottom line, while I didn't know it was a question of longevity, Page's studio accolades simply are in a different league than Iommi's.  If you go by longevity, then I guess Keith Richards is better than Tony yeah?

[BlobVanDam]

Tony Iommi shits all over Page.

[gazinwales]

Iommi = Innovator
Page = Imitator

What??  One... everyone imitates to an extent.  It's called influence yes? Page's innovations have influenced musicians overall more than Tony's.   Bottom line, while I didn't know it was a question of longevity, Page's studio accolades simply are in a different league than Iommi's.  If you go by longevity, then I guess Keith Richards is better than Tony yeah?

Just how do you know for anything resembling an actual fact that Page is more of an influence than Iommi?
Fact is that Iommi invented the heavy metal riff and sound, which influence is genre defining and without, metal would/may not be the same as we know it today.
The blues that Page plays, was around long before him and long after his creative output dried up.
What has Page done, of any great note since LZ split, besides rehashing the Zep back catalogue numerous times?
While Iommi is still cranking out those unique sounding riffs and playing live.