Doctor Who

[robwebster]

I don't think Moffat's ever written a bad script. Frankly, The Name of the Doctor's as close as he's got, and that's so loved by so many.

I don't think S8 should attempt to emulate that S5 magic, I think it should be its own new thing, and I'm sure it will. But I hope it's a similar quantity of great. From Human Nature right through to Day of the Moon, we were living in a golden age of Who, and I reckon S5 was the apex.

To these two points-- Name of the Doctor is one of the highest rated Doctor Who episodes ever. Like, it's pretty much acclaimed across the board. So I have no clue why you dislike it, but hey.

Oh, yeah, that's purely on personal taste. I find it a little dreary, all standing around and explaining the plot, but even from where I'm standing I'd agree there are some potent flashbangs mixed in there, and I am under no illusion that I'm in the majority on this front. It had the second highest AI of the series, the highest since Asylum of the Daleks - Name of the Doctor officially rocks. It just... rocks other people.

Day of the Doctor was incredible. Properly, earthshatteringly incredible. I feared it was an episode that had been built up so much it couldn't do anything but disappoint, but it didn't at all, and it's a serious contender for best episode ever. Time of the Doctor had a bit more of the Moffat clutter, but it was still a cracking story, and there's a lot to love there.  I'm not, yet, confident they'll be able to punch up to the levels of Smith's first series, I'm starting to think that was a one-off, but I think the show's proven it's in solid health. A change is as good as a break, and they've had both.

[GentlemanofDread]

Me and my Brother are both in agreement that our favourite episode of Doctor Who is Vincent and The Doctor. Just incredible from point A to point B.

[Dimitrius]

That episode brings the feels man!

[Jamesman42]

With season 8, I'm pretty sure Moff said to expect a shift in the show's nature. I'm hoping for some darker, more brooding tones in the show. I love Matt Smith and his presence, but Capaldi has a completely different feel to him already from the regen and eyebrows snapshot, that I want to see some maturity in the show.

[Super Dude]

I don't think Moffat's ever written a bad script. Frankly, The Name of the Doctor's as close as he's got, and that's so loved by so many.

I don't think S8 should attempt to emulate that S5 magic, I think it should be its own new thing, and I'm sure it will. But I hope it's a similar quantity of great. From Human Nature right through to Day of the Moon, we were living in a golden age of Who, and I reckon S5 was the apex.

To these two points-- Name of the Doctor is one of the highest rated Doctor Who episodes ever. Like, it's pretty much acclaimed across the board. So I have no clue why you dislike it, but hey.

Oh, yeah, that's purely on personal taste. I find it a little dreary, all standing around and explaining the plot, but even from where I'm standing I'd agree there are some potent flashbangs mixed in there, and I am under no illusion that I'm in the majority on this front. It had the second highest AI of the series, the highest since Asylum of the Daleks - Name of the Doctor officially rocks. It just... rocks other people.

Day of the Doctor was incredible. Properly, earthshatteringly incredible. I feared it was an episode that had been built up so much it couldn't do anything but disappoint, but it didn't at all, and it's a serious contender for best episode ever. Time of the Doctor had a bit more of the Moffat clutter, but it was still a cracking story, and there's a lot to love there.  I'm not, yet, confident they'll be able to punch up to the levels of Smith's first series, I'm starting to think that was a one-off, but I think the show's proven it's in solid health. A change is as good as a break, and they've had both.

You may be in the minority, but you're not alone. I really think that title belongs to Day of the Doctor rather than Name.

[ozzy554]

With season 8, I'm pretty sure Moff said to expect a shift in the show's nature. I'm hoping for some darker, more brooding tones in the show. I love Matt Smith and his presence, but Capaldi has a completely different feel to him already from the regen and eyebrows snapshot, that I want to see some maturity in the show.

I hope so too, I always like when doctor who gets dark. This for example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z32WpsHyJgw

[ariich]

On the whole I agree with the vibe of this discussion, I think series 5 was the peak of Doctor Who and one of the best individual seasons of any show ever. I also think the show is on another high at the moment, I've adored everything from Name onwards, and really loved a lot of s7 as well.

Oh and I would love to see Phillip Glennister is DW. Why has this not happened yet?!

[Onno]

The End of Time 

Seriously, that whole emotional rant after the four knocks and "I don't want to go" are pretty much my favourite Tennant moments now...

[Jamesman42]

Yeah...everything from him throwing Rassilon back onward is incredible to watch.

[BlobVanDam]

Yeah...everything from him throwing Rassilon back onward is incredible to watch.

I'm not a big fan of the episode, but definitely this. Tennant got a great send-off imo.

[robwebster]

And is the Trenzalore story finished? After Gallifrey interfered and gave The Doctor more regeneration energy, is he still buried there? Because the place looked far more completely devastated and destroyed when they visited in Name of the Doctor than it did at the end there. Is there still a massive event waiting for him on Trenzalore?

Naw, timeline aborted, the Time Lords intervened. The Eleventh Doctor was due to die the last Doctor, and to die on Trenzalore, but there'll be a new grave elsewhere, now. If Peter Capaldi returned to the space-time co-ordinates of The Name of the Doctor, he'd just find fields or something.

I don't see why this should be the case, and nothing in any of the episodes suggested as much. Firstly, the events on Trenzalore in TotD occur much earlier in history than those in NotD. Secondly, the Doctor has a new regeneration cycle, but he still (presumably) only has another 12 regenerations, and so in theory will still eventually die.

Plus, the way they set up Trenzalore in NotD (which is presumably a far-future era of its history, maybe towards the end of the universe) is that it is the resting place of all timelords. Why should it be fields just because the Doctor, one timelord, got a new regeneration cycle?

He will eventually die, but the point of The Time of the Doctor is that he was heading to the point where all his regenerations had been used up. It was his own personal future, it was set in stone, and we knew, cos we'd seen it. The tombs at Trenzalore were the remains of a great battle - the battle the Doctor died in, and the battle we saw snippets of in The Time of the Doctor. That battle no longer ends that way, and the Doctor is no longer among the casualties, nor among the graves - of warriors, not Time Lords. "The bigger the grave, the more important the warrior."

The idea is that Trenzalore is where he was always headed. The very first day he got that TARDIS, he could have gone to Trenzalore, at the exact co-ordinates Name of the Doctor takes place, and he'd find that grave, he'd find Matt Smith, and although the timeline we saw underground would be basically flexible, his death was already "history," and his death was at Trenzalore. The clock tower was where he was going to actually properly die and for real this time, and where he was always due to die.  The Time Lords didn't just give him the power to regenerate again, they were the only people powerful enough to extend his timeline past what the cosmos had expected. This is also why Clara doesn't encounter Capaldi when she enters his timeline - that thirteenth face wasn't due to happen, yet, the Doctor's timeline was due to end with Smith.

This isn't me trying to spin a fan theory, this isn't me trying to dot Is and cross Ts - I thought it was quite crucial to the concept of TotD! The prophecy said he was going to die, because he actually was, as far as the universe was concerned, and had always been concerned. But the Time Lords are more powerful:

"We saw the future, Clara. This is how it ends."
"Change it. Like Tasha said, change the future."
"I could have once, when there were Time Lords. Not any more."

Death on Trenzalore was his actual future - we saw it, that was how it ended. Thanks to the Time Lords... not any more! They changed it, they didn't delay it. His grave's somewhere else now - many faces and years away. (And if Capaldi goes into his timeline now, he'll see the twelfth Doctor, the thirteenth, the fourteenth, the fifteenth...)

Disregard all this, The Doctor says I'm wrong.

https://www.doctorwhotv.co.uk/moffat-explains-doctors-timey-tomb-62195.htm

“Changing time is tricky. It’s a bit like a detective story: so as long there isn’t an actual body, you’ve got a certain amount of wiggle room – for instance, if the body has, rather conveniently, been burned on a boat in Utah.

“Here’s the thing: I can change the future so long as the future has not already been established as part of my own past. I can’t rescue Amy and Rory because I already know that I didn’t.

“But what do I know about Trenzalore? There’s a big monument that looks very like my TARDIS. There’s a temporal fissure leading to my timeline. Maybe it’s my grave. Maybe, one day, it’s my burial ground. Maybe it is something else entirely, and we got it all wrong. Don’t know. Don’t plan to find out for as long as possible. The main thing is, Clara still jumped into my time stream, and ended up helping me through all of my life. All that is established, unchanged – but there’s wiggle room!”

Also suggests he wasn't the Teselecta all along, and The Doctor actually did die in Utah in the original, aborted timeline. Turns out me and Steven Moffat interpret time travel very differently! He's timey, I'm wimey.

[ariich]

I never interpreted series 6 as him being the Teselecta all along, I always interpreted that as finding a way to change history so that he doesn't die, so the one where he does is aborted. Same as in The Day of the Doctor - as far as I can tell, the original timeline is that the Doctor does destroy Gallifrey, but they change events in a huge way, but in a way that, to the universe, remains consistent.

[masterthes]

So, in spite of the crappy effects I thought Invasion of the Dinosaurs was a pretty decent story. I was surprised though with what happened to Yates. Did he want out of the show?

[robwebster]

I never interpreted series 6 as him being the Teselecta all along, I always interpreted that as finding a way to change history so that he doesn't die, so the one where he does is aborted. Same as in The Day of the Doctor - as far as I can tell, the original timeline is that the Doctor does destroy Gallifrey, but they change events in a huge way, but in a way that, to the universe, remains consistent.

I'm the opposite on both - but I suspect, in light of The Doctor's comments, you're probably closer to the intended message!

As far as I could tell The Wedding of River Song was just The Impossible Astronaut from the perspective of the Doctor. We see the trick as it appears to outsiders, and then we follow The Doctor on the slow path, going behind the scenes as he develops the trick. Happy to go with the other one, but I'm not sure what caused him to think of the Teselecta the second time round but not the first. Always felt mine was the neatest interpretation - of course I did, that's why it was my interpretation! But I'm happy to take the Doctor's word for what actually happened. I'm a mere human, and he has time eyes.

Likewise, with Gallifrey, the Moment would always have opened time portals on the War Doctor's future as far as I could gather, and would therefore always have guided the Tenth and Eleventh Doctors through the time lock, who would always have had the brainwave that they did. I think Moffat's is more beautiful, though. I love the idea of the sad, tired warrior burning his planet alone in shame, then doing it with his own blessing, and finally being guided to a better solution by his future selves. I think that one's a bit clearer in the text, too - when the Eleventh Doctor says "I've changed my mind," he seriously is breaking history, and it feels like it. So that one works both ways for me. The Day of the Doctor really is stupendously good.

[BlobVanDam]

I don't think either interpretation is inherently invalid given that the "timey wimey" stuff in Dr Who really doesn't hold up to scrutiny. It never has in the episodes I've seen. And that's ok. I still haven't figured out for certain how the Trenzalore timeline managed to divert from its original fate in Name of the Doctor.

And the more I think about it lately, the more it nags at me that we were never told who the lady in the shop was who gave Clara the Doctor's phone number, so that better be answered at some point!

[Onno]

Just finished Series 5. I seemed to recall some people mentioning that S5 was the best series so far, or am I mistaken? Anyway, I love Matt Smith as the Doctor, but for me this series was a bit weird. There were some episodes that were not very good (Victory of the Daleks, Vampires of Venice) and some episodes which were okay (The Hungry Earth/Cold Blood) but the rest was absolutely amazing. It seems like every Moffat episode I've seen so far has been amazing.

[masterthes]

I agree that Daleks was poor, but I really liked Vampires

[Jamesman42]

Series 5 is good, but not the best IMO. I may like series 6 better, and definitely series 4 the best.

[robwebster]

I love Victory and Vampires - but I do see Victory's flaws. Not Vampires, though, that episode's crackalacking.

Moffat is an incredibly reliable writer. He does occasionally bite off a bit more than he can chew, but even his worst episodes are supremely entertaining. Russell T Davies is brilliant, too, but I think he wrote Doctor Who that didn't always emphasise all the bits I saw as important. I think Davies' solutions were often more emotionally smart than witty, so his eps didn't always satisfy me on every level, but he's still the second best writer to ever pen an episode of Doctor Who, in my book.

[ariich]

I agree with everything you just said, Rob.

[Super Dude]

Bit of fridge logic here: if the Doctor regenerates whenever he dies, what the hell is he "dying" from at the end of The Day of the Doctor that he regenerates from War to Nine?

[BlobVanDam]

Bit of fridge logic here: if the Doctor regenerates whenever he dies, what the hell is he "dying" from at the end of The Day of the Doctor that he regenerates from War to Nine?

He said he was wearing a bit thin, referencing the first doctor's death, so I assume basically old age, having finished his job in the time war. His body might have been holding on while he still had work to do, but having done that, basically "let go".
It's possible it could also have been influenced by the fact it was a forced regeneration, or by the wibbly wobbly time lines correcting themselves.

[ariich]

Yeah, he still ages, so when his body starts to give up, he'll regenerate then. As Blob says, that's what happened when the first Doctor regenerated into the Second - nothing happened to him to "kill" him.

[robwebster]

It's also what killed Eleven when he regenerated into Twelve. "Yes, I'm dying - you've been trying to kill me for centuries, and here I am, dying of old age! If you want something done, do it yourself." Very like Moffat that all his Doctors age to death! I don't think he wrote a single on-screen death for the whole of his first five series - some grisly ones in S5, but they'd always cut around it or bring the character back.

Incidentally, when I went to look for that transcription of The Time of the Doctor just now, I typed 'the time of the daleks lyrics'. Some geek at Google thinks I'm a right nob, now - It's been a long week.

(I would totally listen to that song, though.)

[ariich]

The Time of the Daleks is one of the Big Finish audio dramas, featuring the Eighth Doctor. I'm actually on that one right now!

[Onno]

I just watched the first two episodes of S6 (The Impossible Astronaut/Day of the Moon). Holy shit, that was incredibly amazing. Now I've got to keep on watching, really wanna find out the rest of the story!

[robwebster]

I agree. The Impossible Astronaut and Day of the Moon are incredible. Despite being the first shard of a story that crashes on for the following year or so, it still somehow feels very whole and self-contained. The arc stuff is brilliant, with the regeneration and the astronaut and the Doctor's death - those scenes still chill my spine now - but you get the sense it could still be incredible without any of that. Because there's an absolute corker of a story at its heart, this devilishly smart whirligig of genuinely terrifying monsters across umpteen different locations, and although Day of the Moon stomps along without pausing for breath it never rushes so fast as to outpace the story - it's pitch-perfect. A properly spellbinding slab of Doctor Who.

Coincidentally, I just rewatched The Curse of the Black Spot, a couple of hours ago, which is the next episode on from Day of the Moon. For the first time, I found myself a little impatient with it. It's actually the first few scenes that set the tone - the Doctor's humour feels contrived, a little misjudged. It's the Doctor the Dream Lord hates for all his tawdry quirks. I don't think it's a problem with Matt Smith's performance, I think he performs those lines as well as possible, but I found my attention wavering. Which is a shame! Still, some nice stuff.

[masterthes]

The only reason to like the Black Spot I can sum up in two words: Lily Cole

[robwebster]

It's not the only reason... but I do think the moment where Amy is lusting after the Siren is slightly my favourite. I barely notice the other two are there.

It's genuinely a good performance! Not that much to work with, but she made a lot of it. She nailed the serene disaffection of a computer interface. Which sounds patronising at best, but it's not meant to be - that could've been so corny, gone so badly wrong, but she completely inhabits the part. The location's beautiful, there are some great scares (the Siren's screams, her hand lurching out of the water), but I didn't buy the mirror universe thing and I don't give a crap about Henry Avery's son. It's usually "come for the monsters, stay for the people," with Doctor Who, but the interpersonal stuff hasn't held up as well for me. Still entertaining, but I'm starting to understand why people don't rate it that much in the grand scheme of things.

[Super Dude]

Ugh, I'm dying for an update.

[masterthes]

They're currently shooting an episode featuring Robin Hood

[jonny108]

They're currently shooting an episode featuring Robin Hood

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n42SVe2mWTU Filming video here. Tom Riley is playing Robin and Ben Miller is the baddie.

[Onno]

I just watched The Curse of the Black Spot. While I have to agree with Rob about the Doctor's contrived humour, and I think overall the Doctor wasn't so fantastic in this episode (not Matt Smith's fault), I really liked the episode and the idea behind it. I thought it was really clever; the only thing that bothered me was that the mirrored universe thing was a bit farsought and not worked out really well. But Rob, what do you mean with "come for the monsters, stay for the people"?

[robwebster]

I think it's one of those shows where if there's a cool monster plot, that's entertaining, but the thing that makes an episode last is the characters. The best episodes end up being stuff like The Waters of Mars, The Pandorica Opens, Vincent and the Doctor, where yes, you've got stellar A-plots, but there's so much bubbling beneath. For all its twisty time-iness, the one thing I most remember about The Big Bang is the Doctor sat by Amelia's bed side, with Matt Smith acting his socks off.

That's a massive oversimplification - The Waters of Mars would be nothing without the genuinely creepy monsters, the gradual fraying of the Doctor's nerves - but I think the best stories have more than just the monster element. With Curse of the Black Spot, I didn't care much for the supporting characters, and even the regular characters, despite great performances, were written a little off-model. "I suppose that laughing like that is in the job description. Can you do the laugh? Check. Grab yourself a parrot. Welcome aboard!"

ETA: Onno - do not read this article! Spoilers..!!

https://www.denofgeek.com/tv/doctor-who/30145/matt-smith-on-doctor-who-the-best-storytelling-was-in-series-5

Matt Smith's favourite series was my favourite series! Excellent.

[Onno]

Ah, I see what you mean now, thanks. I have to agree with you; if you look at it that way, I can see why one would dislike Curse of the Black Spot. Still, I like it better than Victory of the Daleks and Vampires of Venice. Regarding Vampires, I thought Rory's role in that episode was just written badly; I thought he was only there for the comedy factor. And while the idea of aliens 'disguised' as vampires is good, I don't think the idea was worked out very well. It all seemed just a bit silly to me.

And don't worry about the article Until I've completely finished watching all episodes up to S7 (including specials), then I'll start clicking links the Doctor Who FB page shares  and people share here