Doctor Who

[BlobVanDam]

One thing I'm wondering about Gallifrey and the Time Lords... What happened to "they turned into monsters at the end"? Tennant Doctor was absolutely terrified by the thought of the Time Lords re-entering the rest of the universe. But Smith is all like "they would return in peace". What changed?

Producer?
Even if he wasn't on the best terms with the Time Lord leaders, he's still going to take the opportunity to save all of those innocent people given the chance. They are still his people, after all.

And also, didn't we already know that Gallifrey was locked away in time somehow? Wasn't that the whole point of the Master story? So was that supposed to be a surprise when Hurt, Tennant, and Smith didn't burn it?

I'm no expert, but I believe the time war on Gallifrey was "time locked", meaning there'd been so much timey wimey stuff going on, that that he couldn't simply time travel back to Gallifrey (probably like how he apparently could never return to save Amy and Rory in The Angels Take Manhattan). But they had still all died at the conclusion of the time war.
The events of that episode with The Master took place during the time war before they all died, and they were able to break out from that point in history via whatever the link was. The difference after The Day of the Doctor is now they don't die at the end of the Time War, so once The Doctor finds and saves them from wherever he hid them, their history will continue on after the time war, and I suppose he'll be able to visit Gallifrey.

[ozzy554]

I just like to ignore The end of time. It's one of the few episodes new or old that i can say that I absolutely hate. Even Moffat seems to ignore it most of the time.

[robwebster]

One thing I'm wondering about Gallifrey and the Time Lords... What happened to "they turned into monsters at the end"? Tennant Doctor was absolutely terrified by the thought of the Time Lords re-entering the rest of the universe. But Smith is all like "they would return in peace". What changed?

The Doctor shot the diamond, and locked Rassilon et al in a room with the Master! It is paid brief lip-service in The Day of the Doctor, the Time Lords mention Rassilon's plan, so that all still happened.

[Jamesman42]

I just like to ignore The end of time. It's one of the few episodes new or old that i can say that I absolutely hate. Even Moffat seems to ignore it most of the time.

I don't get why people hate The End of Time. It's such a great send-off for Tennant and a great storyline.


One thing regarding Capaldi in TDOTD...when that one Gallifreyan says "All 12 are here...wait, all 13!" and they cut to Capaldi's beautiful eyes...any significance there?

[BlobVanDam]

One thing regarding Capaldi in TDOTD...when that one Gallifreyan says "All 12 are here...wait, all 13!" and they cut to Capaldi's beautiful eyes...any significance there?

I don't think there's anything to it other than the sneak peak of foreshadowing the upcoming new Doctor.

I didn't like The End of Time that much. I don't like The Master in the new series, and it was a silly storyline with all of the duplicates, and the Doctor jumping out from the sky so easily.
I did think the ending was a great send-off though, from the point he got hit with the radiation.

[robwebster]

I wonder if appreciation for The End of Time kind of hinges on your opinion of the Master. I think it's RTD's best finale. Most are at least a little flawed - usually a brilliant part one with a slightly weird part two. Last of the Time Lords was great but I don't like the way it resolves, plainly. Yes, the Archangel thing was seeded in, but not in a way that all the "Doctor! Doctor!" stuff seemed to fit. I generally Journey's End has wonderful moments, but was a bit of a clusterfuck, and frankly... a little boring! Everyone taking it in turns, all Osterhagen keys and speeches, then the ending just plain didn't sell, for me. It was a thrill on first watch, but it's become one of my least favourite episodes. (The Stolen Earth remains a blast, mind.)

TEoT, I thought, was all the best of Russell T Davies' writing with none of the drawbacks. Great villain, great companion, interesting plot, the Vinvocci were cool, I think it was John Simm's better performance of two killer appearances. The jump through the window, yes, ridiculous, considering we've seen Tom Baker die of the exact same injury from a much shorter height. But he isn't doing well for it. Maybe the window slowed his impact? The glass'll injure him, but also decelerate. Doesn't quite fit with physics, but I'm willing to give it a pass since I'm enjoying the rest so much. I think, on balance, it's probably my favourite regeneration episode. I prefer the Master as a tramp to a politician, and love that we've seen him as both. Decaying, mad, with nothing to lose and electric bolts for hands - the Saxon Master was sort of on his best behaviour and playing at leadership, whereas the Glitch Master is an exploding firework, with no reason to feign manners, and I think it suits him better. Properly unhinged. Love it. That scene, where he shows the Doctor the drumming - I never see anyone talk about that scene, but I think it's incredible. TEoT is both RTD's best Christmas special and his best finale, I reckon.

[BlobVanDam]

And it was a Christmas episode to boot? No wonder I didn't like it. I pretty much hate all of the Christmas episodes (excluding the latest one obviously).
Maybe it does hinge on whether you like The Master, because I thought all of his stories were terrible. Tweety Bird Jesus Doctor episode is a definite low point for the show imo, so at least The End of Time was a marginal step up from that. Episodes like that make me say good riddance to the RTD era.

On a completely unrelated note, I realized just yesterday that during the 11th Doctor's final scene with Amy, it uses the music from The Rings of Akhaten "Infinite Potential". This isn't anything new, but I hadn't noticed it the first time.
Such a beautiful piece of music, and very fitting for that scene. So now I've had The Long Song stuck in my head for the past day. I don't like The Rings of Akhaten much, but the music is always a standout.

[Jamesman42]

Yeah dude, when they played that song from TROA that made the scene right before his regen very powerful.

I like John Simm as the master, but Utopia was such an AWESOME intro to the master.

[BlackInk]

On a completely unrelated note, I realized just yesterday that during the 11th Doctor's final scene with Amy, it uses the music from The Rings of Akhaten "Infinite Potential". This isn't anything new, but I hadn't noticed it the first time.
Such a beautiful piece of music, and very fitting for that scene. So now I've had The Long Song stuck in my head for the past day. I don't like The Rings of Akhaten much, but the music is always a standout.

I have been playing The Long Song at least twice a day for about a week now, awesome music.

[ozzy554]

I love the master. I just don't really like RTD's version of the master, especially the high flying, lightning shooting one from the end of time.

[lonestar]

OK, finally getting into Dr. Who. Watched four seasons in the last month and am thoroughly enjoying it. The Waters of Mars might be some of the best sci fi I have seen, just brilliant writing.



And as hot as Amy Pond is, my heart still belongs to Rose.

[El JoNNo]

Part of me wishes they had a small story arc with the Timelord Victorious!

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Waters Of Mars is awesome. Rose is significantly less awesome, I never understood her appeal.

[robwebster]

OK, finally getting into Dr. Who. Watched four seasons in the last month and am thoroughly enjoying it. The Waters of Mars might be some of the best sci fi I have seen, just brilliant writing.

And as hot as Amy Pond is, my heart still belongs to Rose.

The Waters of Mars - I agree, it's one of the very best episodes! I think it's probably my favourite David Tennant episode. Great idea, strong monsters, incredible performances all round, the ending's incredible. This thread was created in the build-up, actually, so if you go to the first page you can see me posting a trailer and getting excited! I do like Rose, but I don't love her like I love Amy - and Rory, at that. Incredible companions. I was watching the "Eggs" scene from Asylum of the Daleks, earlier, and thought, "That's perfect." That's a masterclass in companionning.

Just realised, this thread's lasted an entire era. That's nice. I'm happy for it.

[BlobVanDam]

The Waters of Mars isn't one of my favourites, but thinking about it, it was very good. I always liked the way the 10th Doctor went a little off the rails without a companion to keep him grounded, and that episode was a prime example of that. That ending was well done.
The only thing about that episode that puts me slightly off is that the premise reminds me of a Hollywood scifi movie (except this was better).

[lonestar]

What got me was that madness of not having a companion actually, and how it made him go against pretty much all of his main principles. And they portrayed that so well through the one ladies future history, and how one person can effect a universe. Just a brilliant job of writing.

[wasteland]

Waters is a stunning episode! It's great to know that the guy who wrote it along with RTD is set to pen an episode for seaosn 8!

[robwebster]

Waters is a stunning episode! It's great to know that the guy who wrote it along with RTD is set to pen an episode for seaosn 8!

The "& Russell T Davies" credits don't actually signify increased involvement - he was just complaining about how he never gets credit for all the rewrites he does, and someone suggested he add himself as a credit in the last year. Which is fairer than it sounds: Human Nature and The Satan Pit, in particular, had a lot of Russell T Davies in them, and everyone used to go on about how Paul Cornell was a genius and Russell wasn't qualified to lick his boots.

Planet of the Dead, notably, ended up having more Gareth Roberts in than either of the other scripts he'd penned up to that point.

[Jaq]

RTD did a lot of re-writing during his time on the show-in fact he said once that the only writer who he didn't re-write for was, of course, Moffat.  Head writers re-write constantly-Neil Gaiman credited Moffat with some of the best lines in The Doctor's Wife when Gaiman was on about his eighth re-write and just basically gave up. Kind of odd that RTD would complain like that, given that it was commonly known back then how much re-writing he did.

[robwebster]

RTD did a lot of re-writing during his time on the show-in fact he said once that the only writer who he didn't re-write for was, of course, Moffat. 

Yeah, he's well known for it! I think there were a couple more on the list, by the end - it was anyone who'd been a showrunner, possibly? Stephen Greenhorn, he didn't touch a word. I feel like there were another two, but can't remember who they were. Chibbers and someone else? I don't know.

Human Nature was a stick fans - not casuals, but proper messageboard twats who should have known better - would beat RTD over the head with. "Oh, he's so disposable and lightweight, he could never write such an incredible and nuanced script as Human Nature," whereas in reality, he halfway did. He didn't spend a lot of time listening to fans - you'd go crazy - but it did bug him, by the end.

Probably for the best. The Waters of Mars is generally considered one of the best episodes of David Tennant's era, and TEoT was polarising. Imagine the moronic outrage if, right at the end, Phil Ford's episode was seen to beat the RTD one.

[Jamesman42]

The Waters of Mars was posted in the OP I think by Rob. I remember I watched it and then a year later I watched from "Rose" onward.

TWOM is still one of my favorite episodes. In fact, season 4 is by far my favorite season of DW. Midnight is probably my favorite episode.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Midnight is also great.

I think RTD had a lot of great moments, but he had a few really poor ones as well. Moffat seems to me to be more consistent, and generally I'd say his best stuff is better than Davies', though I still enjoy both.

[BlackInk]

Moffat's episodes were the best episodes during RTD's time. But I was a bit worried at first when Moffat took over as show runner, because all through season 5, there were many cool ideas, but it rarely made any sense if you thought about it. But then season 6 was fanstastic so it's all okay now.

[ariich]

there were many cool ideas, but it rarely made any sense if you thought about it.

That's pretty much the definition of Doctor Who, and has been the case since the first Doctor. In a way, that's part of what's loveable about the show.

[BlobVanDam]

I agree. None of the Doctor Who I've seen makes a whole lot of sense if you apply logic to it, and that's fine by me. It doesn't present itself under that pretense, and never has. I personally think S6 made much less sense than S5 once it got to the business end, but that has no bearing on my enjoyment of either one.

[masterthes]

So, they added the Doctor Who Legacy game for the Kindle Fire. I am loving it so far

[Jaq]

Midnight is also great.

I think RTD had a lot of great moments, but he had a few really poor ones as well. Moffat seems to me to be more consistent, and generally I'd say his best stuff is better than Davies', though I still enjoy both.

Midnight made me want to walk up to RTD and yell "WRITE LIKE THAT MORE OFTEN DAMMIT!" RTD seemed more comfortable writing small scale, done in one things than he was writing huge arc things-which is why none of his arc resolutions work well to me, they always felt like "modern sci fi is arc based, I have to do it!" He should have stuck to more intimate stories like Midnight, that was amazing.

[BlackInk]

there were many cool ideas, but it rarely made any sense if you thought about it.

That's pretty much the definition of Doctor Who, and has been the case since the first Doctor. In a way, that's part of what's loveable about the show.

I agree. None of the Doctor Who I've seen makes a whole lot of sense if you apply logic to it, and that's fine by me. It doesn't present itself under that pretense, and never has. I personally think S6 made much less sense than S5 once it got to the business end, but that has no bearing on my enjoyment of either one.

Yes, of course  But I was more refering to the actions and reasoning of characters and stuff like that rather than science and timey-wimey stuff. I can't really remember any of them now, so I guess they weren't so bad, but I remember thinking that more during season 5 than during any of the other seasons.

[BlobVanDam]

That makes sense, as I was only referring to the timey wimey stuff. When I'm watching scifi, I'm all about the science!
But Amy and Rory seemed to get more unpredictable and random to me as time went on.

[robwebster]

I think the Amy-Rory thing was at its best when it was simple. Series 5 was a rollercoaster, incredibly well-executed, but I could write the plot on the back of a napkin. It was the most ambitious series arc of its time, but probably the simplest and most coherent of Steven Moffat's. The Big Bang was a little more complicated, but it's complicated in the way a Penn & Teller trick is complicated. A self-contained puzzlebox that rewards people who've been watching for twelve weeks, but also makes sense if you've been watching for the last twelve minutes.

My pet theory is that time pressures undermined the following series. In Steven Moffat's own words, "Complex is probably what I do when I’m in a hurry. It’s my default setting and my biggest weakness." A lot of his scripts were very late in S6, but I wish he hadn't compensated quite so hard in S7.

I don't think Moffat's ever written a bad script. Frankly, The Name of the Doctor's as close as he's got, and that's so loved by so many. But I'm rewatching select episodes from S5, at the moment, and my god - it's something else. Breathtaking. I've just been watching the Vampires of Venice, and dashed here to sing its praises. Not a Moffat episode, just a silly little monster of the week story, but it bristles with colour and texture. The Calvierris are incredible one-shot villains, beautifully sketched and full of life. Francesco makes your skin crawl in the way a real (fish)person might, Rosanna wants to conquer Venice not out of spite but out of love and fear - the Doctor attempts to reason with her, and she attempts to reason with the Doctor. It looks beautiful, it tells the story clearly and efficiently, exposition is subtly woven in, under a veil of wit and humour, which is omni-present, but it's not all glibness and one-liners, it comes organically from the characters, who they are, how they clash. Rory, in particular, isn't just a passenger - he's a new companion, and essential. "And you kissed her back?" "No, I kissed her mouth." The Doctor's not being a prick, he just doesn't think of it in those terms. The whole series is magical.

I don't think S8 should attempt to emulate that S5 magic, I think it should be its own new thing, and I'm sure it will. But I hope it's a similar quantity of great. From Human Nature right through to Day of the Moon, we were living in a golden age of Who, and I reckon S5 was the apex.



Incidentally, Doctor Who news - Keeley Hawes cast. As Ms. Delphox.

I'm not sure why Doctor Who hasn't recruited the entire cast of Life on Mars and Ashes to Ashes, yet. They're getting through them - John Simm, Marshall Lancaster, Danny Mays, and now Keeley - but they were all so superb, they should all have recurring roles. I really want Phil Glenister as the Corsair. (And Jaime Murray! Ideal casting.)

[masterthes]

She looks like a young Madame Kovarian sans eyepatch of course

[Jamesman42]

I have Delphox in my Pokemon Y lineup right now

[Onno]

I watched Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead yesterday evening. Holy shit those were good, probably my favourite Dr. Who episodes so far

[Heretic]

I don't think Moffat's ever written a bad script. Frankly, The Name of the Doctor's as close as he's got, and that's so loved by so many.

I don't think S8 should attempt to emulate that S5 magic, I think it should be its own new thing, and I'm sure it will. But I hope it's a similar quantity of great. From Human Nature right through to Day of the Moon, we were living in a golden age of Who, and I reckon S5 was the apex.

To these two points-- Name of the Doctor is one of the highest rated Doctor Who episodes ever. Like, it's pretty much acclaimed across the board. So I have no clue why you dislike it, but hey.

The other point-- Season 5 was definitely a golden age, but the past three episodes of Who have been so good (Day perhaps being the best episode yet) that I'm thinking we're about to enter another.

[BlobVanDam]

The other point-- Season 5 was definitely a golden age, but the past three episodes of Who have been so good (Day perhaps being the best episode yet) that I'm thinking we're about to enter another.

I get the same feeling. The first episodes of a season are always big, so I can't wait to see how the S8 opener sets the tone for both the new season, and the new Doctor.