Doctor Who

[BlobVanDam]

Started this show a while back and just finished The Day of the Doctor. Holy shit this show has been one hell of a ride. Can't wait for the start of the next season.

Two things about TDotD though; I wish that the new Doctors would have gotten to see "Rose", or at least acknowledged the mention of Bad Wolf a bit more than that one line from Tennant. Also, I would have liked to have had more than one brief line from Eccleston, but that's just a minor nit-pick. Other than that it was fantastic.

EDIT: Wait.. I have "Time of the Doctor" left don't I? Went looking for something more, and found that title... I will be back when properly done..

Eccleston didn't want to come back for the 50th, so they just used old footage for him as they did with the other doctors, and thus the War Doctor's regeneration only starts to show a basic face, because Eccleston wasn't there to film anything new for a proper regeneration sequence. I didn't much like Eccleston, but I would have liked to see a proper regeneration for him.

Upon rewatching the newer series, the second half of S7 doesn't do much for me, but once it hits The Name/Night/Day/Time of the Doctor, it's amazing, so I'm excited for the new season.


I'm really hoping they eventually explain how Clara called the Doctor. In The Bells of St John, she says the woman in the shop gave her that number, but it's never revealed who that is, as far as I'm aware. It wasn't River Song, as Clara didn't recognize her in The Name of the Doctor, so the other option I see is that it was one of the other Claras, one that was born a few decades before original Clara, and existed to make sure original Clara meets the Doctor.

[robwebster]

Started this show a while back and just finished The Day of the Doctor. Holy shit this show has been one hell of a ride. Can't wait for the start of the next season.

Two things about TDotD though; I wish that the new Doctors would have gotten to see "Rose", or at least acknowledged the mention of Bad Wolf a bit more than that one line from Tennant. Also, I would have liked to have had more than one brief line from Eccleston, but that's just a minor nit-pick. Other than that it was fantastic.

EDIT: Wait.. I have "Time of the Doctor" left don't I? Went looking for something more, and found that title... I will be back when properly done..

Upon rewatching the newer series, the second half of S7 doesn't do much for me, but once it hits The Name/Night/Day/Time of the Doctor, it's amazing, so I'm excited for the new season.

S7B is ropey, yeah. It's all fairly inconsequential, very rarely daring or ambitious... a bit like they were holding anything earthshattering back for the anniversary proper. Monster of the week isn't necessarily bad, Hide was great, but there were a lot of episodes that just didn't quite gel.

That said, been rewatching a few eps lately, and my memory hadn't quite done it all credit. Always knew Hide was great, but The Rings of Akhaten is much better than I remembered (and I never hated it like everyone else did), and The Bells of Saint John is still Moffat's least good opener but that is very faint criticism - absolute blast, and still the cleverest title.

The others, though. Nightmare in Silver's still good, but I was a bit over-excited at the time. Likewise Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS - it's good, but not all that. I was just grateful Doctor Who was on when Cold War first broadcast, and I was excited to finally see Ice Warriors, but I think that blinded me to just how generic it is. So much stock genre dialogue - and the ending underwhelmed the crap out of me. S7B sort of coasted along at 70%. I'll miss Matt Smith, but something needed to change.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

I love Rings Of Akhaten.

[Heretic]

robwebster! It's been a while sir. Did you post your thoughts on the 50th and the Christmas special?

[Jamesman42]

The Long Song in TROA is the best song since I Am the Doctor.

[Jaq]

I actually liked the second half of 7 better than the first half, if only because the first half was basically the show walking in place while we got to the departure of the Ponds-their departure, in retrospect, was kind of overdue by then- while the second half had some pretty neat episodes in it (the only episode I'm really weak on is Cold War, and I do wish that Nightmare in Silver had been the two parter Gaiman envisioned when he wrote it) and of course led into the Name/Day/Time trilogy. In hindsight, also, I agree that this needed to be Smith's last series, because as much as I liked him, the show was feeling a little too comfortable again, and it was time to break it. 

[Jamesman42]

Season 7 overall was pretty weak, and I am fanboyish with NuWho. Besides the Of the Doctor trilogy and a few random episodes, it was disappointing to me.

[BlobVanDam]

S7B is ropey, yeah. It's all fairly inconsequential, very rarely daring or ambitious... a bit like they were holding anything earthshattering back for the anniversary proper. Monster of the week isn't necessarily bad, Hide was great, but there were a lot of episodes that just didn't quite gel.

That said, been rewatching a few eps lately, and my memory hadn't quite done it all credit. Always knew Hide was great, but The Rings of Akhaten is much better than I remembered (and I never hated it like everyone else did), and The Bells of Saint John is still Moffat's least good opener but that is very faint criticism - absolute blast, and still the cleverest title.

The others, though. Nightmare in Silver's still good, but I was a bit over-excited at the time. Likewise Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS - it's good, but not all that. I was just grateful Doctor Who was on when Cold War first broadcast, and I was excited to finally see Ice Warriors, but I think that blinded me to just how generic it is. So much stock genre dialogue - and the ending underwhelmed the crap out of me. S7B sort of coasted along at 70%. I'll miss Matt Smith, but something needed to change.

I really like The Bells of St John. I'd probably agree it's Moffat's least best opener, but his openers are always of a good standard, so that's not saying much.
I just rewatched The Rings of Akhaten, and it still doesn't do much for me. I like the Star Wars vibe going on, but the story of the singing girl is painful.
Cold War is a decent monster episode, but nothing amazing. As you said, kinda generic stuff going on there. I think RTD was probably a bit better at the monster of the week thing.
I didn't like Hide much. Far too sentimental even for Dr Who.
Journey to the Center of the TARDIS is good, but I felt it could have been more. Anything that delves further into the TARDIS itself interests me, but I don't think it went far enough. Missed potential.
The Crimson Horror has some good moments, but overall another average one.
Nightmare in Silver is another episode that I felt had a lot more potential than they achieved. How can that many Cybermen not be awesome?
I think my biggest gripe with the second half of the season is that The Doctor isn't standing out as much for the most part. I didn't find him to be as funny or wacky. He was mostly just there, and felt secondary a lot of the time.

I thought the first half of S7 was much stronger. Asylum, and Dinosaurs on a Spaceship were both great fun, and The Power of Three was probably one of my favourite episodes for The Doctor. The main problem there was that Rory and Amy were starting to feel they'd overstayed their welcome, and by Angels, I was just waiting for an Angel to off them both. River Song was also very out of place and redundant, and felt like she was only there because her parents were going down.

Given the interviews and spoilers so far, I have a feeling the first episode of S8 is going to be a doozy though.

[Heretic]

I love Series 7. Much better than 6, but not better than 5 unless you're counting the Doctor trilogy. With that added, S7 beats most of New Who for me.

[BlobVanDam]

I love Series 7. Much better than 6, but not better than 5 unless you're counting the Doctor trilogy. With that added, S7 beats most of New Who for me.

I think 5 is definitely the best of the Moffat seasons overall. S6 was good, and it had a great story arc, but River Song was a constant downer for me, which knocks it down a few notches.
I'm not sure which I'd choose out of 6 and 7, although the tail end of 7 (ie. the specials) really give it a huge boost.

[robwebster]

I thought the first half of S7 was much stronger. Asylum, and Dinosaurs on a Spaceship were both great fun, and The Power of Three was probably one of my favourite episodes for The Doctor. The main problem there was that Rory and Amy were starting to feel they'd overstayed their welcome, and by Angels, I was just waiting for an Angel to off them both. River Song was also very out of place and redundant, and felt like she was only there because her parents were going down.

Definitely! I really like A Town Called Mercy, too, which not a lot of people seem to. It does have a curious feel to it, though. I bloody love Amy and Rory, but they'd sort of said their goodbyes as long ago as The God Complex - their story ended, and they didn't officially "rejoin" until the end of The Power of Three, so their continued travels end up feeling a bit tacked on. "Oh, yeah, also, this happened." Like bonus tracks! Welcome, but the rhythm's slightly off. Some great eps, though.

There is a funny thing with those S7B episodes, where lots of people tend to agree that it's a mixed bag, but nobody can quite agree which those great episodes are. As you say, Blob, you don't much dig Hide, but for me it's the strongest story. There are a lot of people who really love The Crimson Horror, and regrettably I'm not one of them. It's weird. Something for everyone, probably - but only very rarely everything for everyone.

I love Series 7. Much better than 6, but not better than 5 unless you're counting the Doctor trilogy. With that added, S7 beats most of New Who for me.

I think I have it a tier down. Series 5 wins outright, and series 7 might beat series 6 only if you count the specials. Those specials are glorious. The Day of the Doctor, in particular, makes everything better.

Thinking about it, John Hurt is statistically the best Doctor. Every other Doctor's got a couple of squiffy episodes, but John Hurt is consistently brilliant. A+ performance, really great characterisation, in an incredibly strong episode. Finally, the question "Who's the best Doctor?" has a correct answer.

robwebster! It's been a while sir. Did you post your thoughts on the 50th and the Christmas special?

Never did - wasn't here! I'm sure they'll emerge on their own, probably already have to an extent, but I'm off in a minute so don't have the time for extended reviews just yet. In short - DotD, brilliant, possibly the best Doctor Who episode. TotD - also brilliant, but could have done with a few more minutes to breathe. The performance of Matt Smith's life, he absolutely gave the performance of his life, but the Doctor doubled his age overnight; the time he spent on Trenzalore was equal to the combined length of everything from the moment William Hartnell stole the TARDIS to the moment David Tennant didn't want to go, and I think they needed to do more with Clara to sell the way that feels.

Lots of very juicy stuff, though. The Doctor fighting alongside the Silence, all his clever schemes, his incredible old-acting - and, my favourite, him up on the clock tower swinging his ancient limbs about like he's a newborn lamb. So much to love, just comes with a few caveats. Things that didn't go anywhere. He lies in a truth field, and then they set up that holographic clothing overlay and didn't do anything with it. I thought they were doing something like this...


INT. TARDIS.

CLARA treads in, wary.

Along the floor – a trail of discarded clothes. Jacket, trousers, bow tie, leading up to the console, where a bowl of fish fingers and custard lies half-eaten.

A figure emerges from the corridor – the ELEVENTH DOCTOR. Young again.

      ELEVENTH DOCTOR
Hello again.

      CLARA
You're still you.

      ELEVENTH DOCTOR
I'm always me.

      CLARA
But you're you you. Young you. Is that it? Cos it's a new cycle? You get to keep your face?

      ELEVENTH DOCTOR
Oh, Clara.

He starts undoing his bow tie. Those big sad eyes.

      ELEVENTH DOCTOR
We're all different people, all through our lives, when you think about it. That's okay. That's good. You've got to keep moving. So long as you remember all the people you used to be.

The Eleventh Doctor removes his bow tie and drapes it around Clara's neck. Intense, eye to eye –

      ELEVENTH DOCTOR
I will always remember when the Doctor was... you know.
   (TWELFTH DOCTOR VOICE)
Old girl.

      CLARA
Old girl?

The Doctor places an arm on Clara's shoulder –

      ELEVENTH DOCTOR
Disengage projectors.

The Eleventh Doctor flickers, like a graphic, the bow tie flickers too, and both disappear!

Behind the hologram – new face, new clothes. Clara flinches back – those big, mad eyes!!

      TWELFTH DOCTOR
What? What's the issue?

      CLARA
Nothing. No issue.

      TWELFTH DOCTOR
Is it my kidneys?

      CLARA
Kidneys?

      TWELFTH DOCTOR
So I've got funny kidneys. Some people have weird kidneys. Get over it!

The room thumps, and the Doctor rushes to the console –

      CLARA
It's not your kidneys.

      TWELFTH DOCTOR
Good, that's fine, dandy, cos we've got more important stuff to worry about right now.

      CLARA
Like what?

      TWELFTH DOCTOR
Huge question. Big question. Would you happen to know how to fly this thing?


Not so! I'm glad, Moffat's is better, it's more emotionally satisfying when the Eleventh Doctor's last words actually come from the Eleventh Doctor, and the Capaldi Slam was a great choice, but the nudity thing sort of feels like... a build up with no punchline? It's funny, but it's distracting in a way that's strange for something that never becomes important, so I wonder if it was orphaned from a previous draft. There are a few bits like that, that don't quite coalesce. But it is a very good ep, and a strong regeneration.

[BlobVanDam]

Definitely! I really like A Town Called Mercy, too, which not a lot of people seem to. It does have a curious feel to it, though. I bloody love Amy and Rory, but they'd sort of said their goodbyes as long ago as The God Complex - their story ended, and they didn't officially "rejoin" until the end of The Power of Three, so their continued travels end up feeling a bit tacked on. "Oh, yeah, also, this happened." Like bonus tracks! Welcome, but the rhythm's slightly off. Some great eps, though.

There is a funny thing with those S7B episodes, where lots of people tend to agree that it's a mixed bag, but nobody can quite agree which those great episodes are. As you say, Blob, you don't much dig Hide, but for me it's the strongest story. There are a lot of people who really love The Crimson Horror, and regrettably I'm not one of them. It's weird. Something for everyone, probably - but only very rarely everything for everyone.

I liked A Town Called Mercy, but it's not a favourite. A Western version of The Terminator, basically. That appeals to me! The execution of it (no pun intended) was solid, but not a standout imo.

The God Complex felt like the nice send-off for Amy and Rory, giving them the house and the car, so everything after that started to feel like it was clinging. In Closing Time when the Doctor saw them, you feel that he made the sacrifice to keep them safe, and that it was possibly just as painful to him as losing them. I liked that ending.
But then in Asylum of the Daleks it was like "Oh but here they are again and they're having issues". I just didn't really care by that point, and I don't think it was all that believable. Then it sort of drags on through the next years of their life, and Rory and Amy couldn't even make up their mind as to whether they wanted to live their regular lives, or join the Doctor, so they felt like half-hearted companions in S7. Then they disappear into the past with some lame excuse that The Doctor can never visit that time and place again because of timey wimey stuff. Other than that, it was a decent send-off, but it felt like a second send off.



edit: I was also fully expecting that the young 11 was going to be a holographic projection too. I thought he was going to say he'd just put it on to make it easier for her, then BAM, Capaldi. As it was, I think his final send-off dragged just *slightly* too long. It was still good, but I think the holographic idea would have been a perfect bookend to the episode.
That said, the holographic clothing idea was so funny that it worked well on its own.

[BlackInk]

I really liked the Rings of Akhaten too. Grandfather was a cool "monster" and there were some really cool scenes. The Doctor's monologue to the planet about the things he has seen and how long he has lived is one of my favorite moments of the show.

Series 6 is probably my favorite. A Good Man Goes to War is a fantastic episode. And I love the Silence, and the Silent ones (?) are probably my favorite alien of the entire show.

And I do not like the Cybermen, I always get equally disappointed when I see that they're going to be in the episode. Luckily they did something different with it in Nightmare in Silver, and it was cool to see The Doctor and the Cyberplanner talk to each other.

And is the Trenzalore story finished? After Gallifrey interfered and gave The Doctor more regeneration energy, is he still buried there? Because the place looked far more completely devastated and destroyed when they visited in Name of the Doctor than it did at the end there. Is there still a massive event waiting for him on Trenzalore?

[Lynxo]

I thought about that though. Maybe they didn't prevent his death, only prolonged it (Terminator style!). I mean, it was never actually shown to be the eleventh doctor's grave, was it?

Other than that, I just have to comment I have never have so much fun in front on the TV as when I was watching Name/Day/Time. My friend went to visit Day at the cinemas in 3D - how I envy her!

EDIT: Oh, and about the holographic clothes thing - I was sorely disappointed to never get so much as a glimpse of Clara without clothes.

[robwebster]

And is the Trenzalore story finished? After Gallifrey interfered and gave The Doctor more regeneration energy, is he still buried there? Because the place looked far more completely devastated and destroyed when they visited in Name of the Doctor than it did at the end there. Is there still a massive event waiting for him on Trenzalore?

Naw, timeline aborted, the Time Lords intervened. The Eleventh Doctor was due to die the last Doctor, and to die on Trenzalore, but there'll be a new grave elsewhere, now. If Peter Capaldi returned to the space-time co-ordinates of The Name of the Doctor, he'd just find fields or something.

[BlackInk]

Naw, timeline aborted, the Time Lords intervened. The Eleventh Doctor was due to die the last Doctor, and to die on Trenzalore, but there'll be a new grave elsewhere, now. If Peter Capaldi returned to the space-time co-ordinates of The Name of the Doctor, he'd just find fields or something.

That is a bit disappointing, it was such a dark and eeriely unsettling place. The battle there seemed to be worse than the one we saw (since the whole planet seemed to be cracked).

My friend went to visit Day at the cinemas in 3D - how I envy her!

Same here. And since you're from Stockholm, (relying on a monstrous coincidence here) what is her name?

[BlobVanDam]

And is the Trenzalore story finished? After Gallifrey interfered and gave The Doctor more regeneration energy, is he still buried there? Because the place looked far more completely devastated and destroyed when they visited in Name of the Doctor than it did at the end there. Is there still a massive event waiting for him on Trenzalore?

Naw, timeline aborted, the Time Lords intervened. The Eleventh Doctor was due to die the last Doctor, and to die on Trenzalore, but there'll be a new grave elsewhere, now. If Peter Capaldi returned to the space-time co-ordinates of The Name of the Doctor, he'd just find fields or something.

Yep. We saw The Doctor's tomb on Trenzalore in The Name of the Doctor, then in Day of the Doctor he saves the Time Lords, who then give him a new regeneration cycle in The Time of the Doctor during those same events on Trenzalore to avert that timeline altogether, which hadn't happened yet during The Name of the Doctor.
There are a few potential time paradoxes in there, but it's Dr Who, so it's usually best to ignore that.

[Lynxo]

Naw, timeline aborted, the Time Lords intervened. The Eleventh Doctor was due to die the last Doctor, and to die on Trenzalore, but there'll be a new grave elsewhere, now. If Peter Capaldi returned to the space-time co-ordinates of The Name of the Doctor, he'd just find fields or something.

That is a bit disappointing, it was such a dark and eeriely unsettling place. The battle there seemed to be worse than the one we saw (since the whole planet seemed to be cracked).

My friend went to visit Day at the cinemas in 3D - how I envy her!

Same here. And since you're from Stockholm, (relying on a monstrous coincidence here) what is her name?

Haha, she was there with a group of female friends and her name is Mia. Ring any bells?

[Super Dude]

I read somewhere (I can't remember, sorry) that Capaldi could be a one-season Doctor. How likely is this really?

[BlobVanDam]

I read somewhere (I can't remember, sorry) that Capaldi could be a one-season Doctor. How likely is this really?

I haven't heard that, but I prefer a Doctor to have a good run (assuming he's good). I would think they'd want to cast someone with a commitment to several seasons.

edit: A quick Google search found several sites repeating the rumour that he might be a transitional doctor, although it doesn't seem to have much backing. We'll see what happens.

[BlackInk]

Haha, she was there with a group of female friends and her name is Mia. Ring any bells?

Nope, wrong one. Worth a try  Although the one I'm thinking of was also there with a group, but I doubt it was the same.

[ariich]

edit: A quick Google search found several sites repeating the rumour that he might be a transitional doctor, although it doesn't seem to have much backing. We'll see what happens.

Well yeah, but this is one of them now. That's how rumour works.

And is the Trenzalore story finished? After Gallifrey interfered and gave The Doctor more regeneration energy, is he still buried there? Because the place looked far more completely devastated and destroyed when they visited in Name of the Doctor than it did at the end there. Is there still a massive event waiting for him on Trenzalore?

Naw, timeline aborted, the Time Lords intervened. The Eleventh Doctor was due to die the last Doctor, and to die on Trenzalore, but there'll be a new grave elsewhere, now. If Peter Capaldi returned to the space-time co-ordinates of The Name of the Doctor, he'd just find fields or something.

I don't see why this should be the case, and nothing in any of the episodes suggested as much. Firstly, the events on Trenzalore in TotD occur much earlier in history than those in NotD. Secondly, the Doctor has a new regeneration cycle, but he still (presumably) only has another 12 regenerations, and so in theory will still eventually die.

Plus, the way they set up Trenzalore in NotD (which is presumably a far-future era of its history, maybe towards the end of the universe) is that it is the resting place of all timelords. Why should it be fields just because the Doctor, one timelord, got a new regeneration cycle?

[BlackInk]

Plus, the way they set up Trenzalore in NotD (which is presumably a far-future era of its history, maybe towards the end of the universe) is that it is the resting place of all timelords. Why should it be fields just because the Doctor, one timelord, got a new regeneration cycle?

That haven't even occured to me, is there something I missed that makes you think that?

[robwebster]

And is the Trenzalore story finished? After Gallifrey interfered and gave The Doctor more regeneration energy, is he still buried there? Because the place looked far more completely devastated and destroyed when they visited in Name of the Doctor than it did at the end there. Is there still a massive event waiting for him on Trenzalore?

Naw, timeline aborted, the Time Lords intervened. The Eleventh Doctor was due to die the last Doctor, and to die on Trenzalore, but there'll be a new grave elsewhere, now. If Peter Capaldi returned to the space-time co-ordinates of The Name of the Doctor, he'd just find fields or something.

I don't see why this should be the case, and nothing in any of the episodes suggested as much. Firstly, the events on Trenzalore in TotD occur much earlier in history than those in NotD. Secondly, the Doctor has a new regeneration cycle, but he still (presumably) only has another 12 regenerations, and so in theory will still eventually die.

Plus, the way they set up Trenzalore in NotD (which is presumably a far-future era of its history, maybe towards the end of the universe) is that it is the resting place of all timelords. Why should it be fields just because the Doctor, one timelord, got a new regeneration cycle?

He will eventually die, but the point of The Time of the Doctor is that he was heading to the point where all his regenerations had been used up. It was his own personal future, it was set in stone, and we knew, cos we'd seen it. The tombs at Trenzalore were the remains of a great battle - the battle the Doctor died in, and the battle we saw snippets of in The Time of the Doctor. That battle no longer ends that way, and the Doctor is no longer among the casualties, nor among the graves - of warriors, not Time Lords. "The bigger the grave, the more important the warrior."

The idea is that Trenzalore is where he was always headed. The very first day he got that TARDIS, he could have gone to Trenzalore, at the exact co-ordinates Name of the Doctor takes place, and he'd find that grave, he'd find Matt Smith, and although the timeline we saw underground would be basically flexible, his death was already "history," and his death was at Trenzalore. The clock tower was where he was going to actually properly die and for real this time, and where he was always due to die.  The Time Lords didn't just give him the power to regenerate again, they were the only people powerful enough to extend his timeline past what the cosmos had expected. This is also why Clara doesn't encounter Capaldi when she enters his timeline - that thirteenth face wasn't due to happen, yet, the Doctor's timeline was due to end with Smith.

This isn't me trying to spin a fan theory, this isn't me trying to dot Is and cross Ts - I thought it was quite crucial to the concept of TotD! The prophecy said he was going to die, because he actually was, as far as the universe was concerned, and had always been concerned. But the Time Lords are more powerful:

"We saw the future, Clara. This is how it ends."
"Change it. Like Tasha said, change the future."
"I could have once, when there were Time Lords. Not any more."

Death on Trenzalore was his actual future - we saw it, that was how it ended. Thanks to the Time Lords... not any more! They changed it, they didn't delay it. His grave's somewhere else now - many faces and years away. (And if Capaldi goes into his timeline now, he'll see the twelfth Doctor, the thirteenth, the fourteenth, the fifteenth...)

[Heretic]

Agreed with everything you just posted-- on your previous point though, that Matt Smith's Doctor lived longer than the entirety of the other Doctors combined: here's my argument for that.

1. Being the last incarnation, you would most certainly live to your last day-- which is precisely what the 11th was doing. He had no more regeneration energy left, so he lived out what time he had left. This certainly fits, and it doesn't lessen the time spent by the other Doctors for me. But, then we have another point that stands out...

2. The Doctor's age. He CONSTANTLY lies about it in the classic series, saying he's over 3000 at one point and then another saying 900+. Then we have the War Doctor, who states he is only 800 in TDOTD, which I believe is the War Doctor's actual age, and not just the entire age of the Doctor. We see Hurt as a young man after he regenerates from McGann, and given the amount of aging, he would have to have lived a really long life, a la Smith's Doctor. Which leads me to the last point...

3. We shouldn't take into account the age the Doctor says. There's no way for him to actually count his age overall, and being a time traveler, that kind of thing would be obscured in any case. Plus-- there's the "promise" of the Doctor-- perhaps he had lived a long time before he adopted the name of the Doctor, anyways. We'll never know, so we can't really take into account the Doctor's age, and this helps me come to terms with the long run on Trenzalore.

Also, 11's regeneration is my favorite of them all. Perfect last words, poignant appearance from Amy, and the hilarious regeneration. The Time of the Doctor was flawed in many areas, yes, but the amazing parts outweigh the not-so-good ones, at least in my opinion.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

I believe the point was made before that "age" probably has very little meaning for the Doctor. With all his back and forth, how would he even try to gauge his age? So he compensates by just making things up.

[robwebster]

Agreed with everything you just posted-- on your previous point though, that Matt Smith's Doctor lived longer than the entirety of the other Doctors combined: here's my argument for that.

1. Being the last incarnation, you would most certainly live to your last day-- which is precisely what the 11th was doing. He had no more regeneration energy left, so he lived out what time he had left. This certainly fits, and it doesn't lessen the time spent by the other Doctors for me. But, then we have another point that stands out...

2. The Doctor's age. He CONSTANTLY lies about it in the classic series, saying he's over 3000 at one point and then another saying 900+. Then we have the War Doctor, who states he is only 800 in TDOTD, which I believe is the War Doctor's actual age, and not just the entire age of the Doctor. We see Hurt as a young man after he regenerates from McGann, and given the amount of aging, he would have to have lived a really long life, a la Smith's Doctor. Which leads me to the last point...

3. We shouldn't take into account the age the Doctor says. There's no way for him to actually count his age overall, and being a time traveler, that kind of thing would be obscured in any case. Plus-- there's the "promise" of the Doctor-- perhaps he had lived a long time before he adopted the name of the Doctor, anyways. We'll never know, so we can't really take into account the Doctor's age, and this helps me come to terms with the long run on Trenzalore.

Also, 11's regeneration is my favorite of them all. Perfect last words, poignant appearance from Amy, and the hilarious regeneration. The Time of the Doctor was flawed in many areas, yes, but the amazing parts outweigh the not-so-good ones, at least in my opinion.

I've got a bit of a theory about the Doctor's age, which I think basically works. This is me making stuff up to fit, but I think it works cos it's simple. Basically, I think when Gallifrey lived, he counted in Gallifreyan years, and when it disappeared, he switched to Earth years.

I think it's actually pretty easy to count his age - he's about whatever age the TARDIS is, all it takes is a stopwatch in the library, but as he travels and travels he spends time away from the TARDIS and begins to lose track. He'll keep a note at first, "Oh, yeah, the TARDIS jumped forwards twenty days, so I've lived twenty days more than the TARDIS," but as the regenerations wear on, the rounding errors stack up and counting becomes ever more pointless.

When Gallifrey went, it'd be mad to keep using its calendar, so he rounded his approximate age in Gallifreyan years to the nearest whole Earth number - "that's pretty much 900, let's call this my birthday" - and started counting again. This is why Eccleston knew what age he was, Tennant knew what age he was, and Matt Smith knew what age he was at first... but after a couple of centuries, it's fallen out of whack again, and he's back to his approximations. All in my head, but that's how I've made the maths add up, and it's why I'm sort of in the "Trenzalore doubled the Doctor's life" camp. There are people who've worked it out properly, though, incorporating all the audios and that, and got some wildly different statistics. Very cool, in the only way proper geekiness can be.

[ariich]

And is the Trenzalore story finished? After Gallifrey interfered and gave The Doctor more regeneration energy, is he still buried there? Because the place looked far more completely devastated and destroyed when they visited in Name of the Doctor than it did at the end there. Is there still a massive event waiting for him on Trenzalore?

Naw, timeline aborted, the Time Lords intervened. The Eleventh Doctor was due to die the last Doctor, and to die on Trenzalore, but there'll be a new grave elsewhere, now. If Peter Capaldi returned to the space-time co-ordinates of The Name of the Doctor, he'd just find fields or something.

I don't see why this should be the case, and nothing in any of the episodes suggested as much. Firstly, the events on Trenzalore in TotD occur much earlier in history than those in NotD. Secondly, the Doctor has a new regeneration cycle, but he still (presumably) only has another 12 regenerations, and so in theory will still eventually die.

Plus, the way they set up Trenzalore in NotD (which is presumably a far-future era of its history, maybe towards the end of the universe) is that it is the resting place of all timelords. Why should it be fields just because the Doctor, one timelord, got a new regeneration cycle?

He will eventually die, but the point of The Time of the Doctor is that he was heading to the point where all his regenerations had been used up. It was his own personal future, it was set in stone, and we knew, cos we'd seen it. The tombs at Trenzalore were the remains of a great battle - the battle the Doctor died in, and the battle we saw snippets of in The Time of the Doctor. That battle no longer ends that way, and the Doctor is no longer among the casualties, nor among the graves - of warriors, not Time Lords. "The bigger the grave, the more important the warrior."

The idea is that Trenzalore is where he was always headed. The very first day he got that TARDIS, he could have gone to Trenzalore, at the exact co-ordinates Name of the Doctor takes place, and he'd find that grave, he'd find Matt Smith, and although the timeline we saw underground would be basically flexible, his death was already "history," and his death was at Trenzalore. The clock tower was where he was going to actually properly die and for real this time, and where he was always due to die.  The Time Lords didn't just give him the power to regenerate again, they were the only people powerful enough to extend his timeline past what the cosmos had expected. This is also why Clara doesn't encounter Capaldi when she enters his timeline - that thirteenth face wasn't due to happen, yet, the Doctor's timeline was due to end with Smith.

This isn't me trying to spin a fan theory, this isn't me trying to dot Is and cross Ts - I thought it was quite crucial to the concept of TotD! The prophecy said he was going to die, because he actually was, as far as the universe was concerned, and had always been concerned. But the Time Lords are more powerful:

"We saw the future, Clara. This is how it ends."
"Change it. Like Tasha said, change the future."
"I could have once, when there were Time Lords. Not any more."

Death on Trenzalore was his actual future - we saw it, that was how it ended. Thanks to the Time Lords... not any more! They changed it, they didn't delay it. His grave's somewhere else now - many faces and years away. (And if Capaldi goes into his timeline now, he'll see the twelfth Doctor, the thirteenth, the fourteenth, the fifteenth...)

As much as I like all that, it doesn't fit with the 12th Doctor's brief appearance in DotD.

I'll admit that I must have made an assumption that Trenzalore was where all Time Lords were buried, but I thought something stated or implied that in NotD. If that's not the case, and indeed it is only the Doctor who was buried there, then your post makes a lot of sense and does indeed add to the impact of the whole story.

However, it still doesn't fit in with Capaldi's sneaky appearance in DotD. I know that was more for fun and bombast than anything else, but technically, it's canon.

[robwebster]

Yeah, absolutely, the Capaldi throw forward doesn't fit at all - nor the Curator, at that! I mean, you can twist it a bit; Capaldi hadn't happened at Matt Smith's time, but after the Time Lords' intervention Capaldi would, totally, be free to go back and meddle with his predecessors in minor ways. So if we're seeing that scene, and that scene alone, from Capaldi's perspective? Who knows!

I'm keen not to write the Time Lords thing off entirely, I've not seen Name since... Nov 23rd, actually! So it's not fresh in my mind, you might be right. But surely there'd be loads of giant TARDISes in all different shapes? I don't know! It's possible I've missed something. Or maybe it's just one of those things - I spent ages upon ages thinking it was Porridge who'd pulled the trigger on that galaxy, and when he said he felt sorry for the poor blighter who had to blow it up he was talking about himself, and that's what he'd been running from... but that's not actually in the episode. Anywhere. And it says Cybermen hadn't been seen for millennia. But other than that!

[Heretic]

Theory I read on reddit: Capaldi wasn't there in DOTD to help save Gallifrey, but rather he's gone looking for it-- in the last place he saw it.

[BlobVanDam]

The Name of the Doctor makes no mention of other Time Lords that I can find. There are mentions of other graves of soldiers, and the Doctor's.
The guy says "It was a minor skirmish by the Doctor's blood-soaked standards. Not exactly the time war, but enough to finish him. In the end, it was too much for the old man."
Then he names a bunch of races such as Daleks, Cybermen etc, which in context is likely related to the same battle. No mention of the Time Lords.
That seems perfectly consistent with what we saw in The Day of the Doctor. A bunch of those races coming after the Doctor, not a relatively big battle for The Doctor, but enough to finish him off as an old man.

"On the fields of Trenzalore on the fall of the 11th, when no living creature can speak falsely or fail to answer, a question will be asked. A question that must never ever be answered. Silent will fall when the question is asked."

All mention of Trenzalore is to that one event as far as I'm concerned.

The question is, can the timey wimey stuff make sense? Not sure. Let me think it through.
By the 11th Doctor's POV, he should always have saved Gallifrey, but it only happened that way once he'd lived that moment as the 11th Doctor. And the 12th (and any future) Doctor would not have existed had the 11th (and prior) Doctor not saved Gallifrey, so therefore we can conclude that the 12th Doctor was not needed to save Gallifrey at all. So it's perfectly possible he was there for other reasons, and that theory might make sense. Am I overlooking anything there?
The battle on Trenzalore was always about the message from the Time Lords as far as we know, and the prophecy of the oldest question in the universe. I conclude that the Time Lords were always saved by that point.
But that raises the question of what went differently this time? The Doctor died in Trenzalore because he had no more regenerations. But the Time Lords should always have been there able to grant it. The only variable I see here is Clara's intervention, which would make perfect sense if it was one of the ghost Claras from the events of The Name of the Doctor, because that would only occur once the Doctor is dead at Trenzalore, and not beforehand, but it's not. It's original Clara. The other possible change is Tasha Lem, since she's the one who retrieves Clara so he wouldn't die alone, which I thought was a pretty flimsy reason to go to the trouble.

Or it's all just explained by bad handling of how time travel works, which is always a strong possibility with Dr Who.
Given the leaked footage of shooting with Capaldi's Doctor, I think it's plausible that he revisits his own timeline, and that they will show his part in those events. That could be a great season arc.

Any thoughts of my ramblings are most welcome!

[robwebster]

But that raises the question of what went differently this time? The Doctor died in Trenzalore because he had no more regenerations. But the Time Lords should always have been there able to grant it. The only variable I see here is Clara's intervention, which would make perfect sense if it was one of the ghost Claras from the events of The Name of the Doctor, because that would only occur once the Doctor is dead at Trenzalore, and not beforehand, but it's not. It's original Clara. The other possible change is Tasha Lem, since she's the one who retrieves Clara so he wouldn't die alone, which I thought was a pretty flimsy reason to go to the trouble.

In my head, the universe's timeline is self-contained. Gallifrey was "outside" the universe, so all bets were off, and it was unpredictable. But the mechanics are never explored too much in the show.

[BlobVanDam]

But that raises the question of what went differently this time? The Doctor died in Trenzalore because he had no more regenerations. But the Time Lords should always have been there able to grant it. The only variable I see here is Clara's intervention, which would make perfect sense if it was one of the ghost Claras from the events of The Name of the Doctor, because that would only occur once the Doctor is dead at Trenzalore, and not beforehand, but it's not. It's original Clara. The other possible change is Tasha Lem, since she's the one who retrieves Clara so he wouldn't die alone, which I thought was a pretty flimsy reason to go to the trouble.

In my head, the universe's timeline is self-contained. Gallifrey was "outside" the universe, so all bets were off, and it was unpredictable. But the mechanics are never explored too much in the show.

The mechanics are basically whatever suits the particular episode, so it doesn't make sense for them to try and define them too narrowly, because it doesn't work. This is why they have such contrivances as "fixed points in time", selectively not being able to go back on your own timeline etc, and in the past have made a point of just dismissing time issues humorously. It's not that kind of show, so you just roll with it.

So that said, I'm fine to just accept it as is, but being the scifi/time travel fan I am, it is nice when you can make sense of the flow of events. Applying logic to it, that's what I came up with. Either way, I've hugely enjoyed those episodes, which is what counts in the end!

[ariich]

Same Blob. It's a show that's been running for 50 years, under dozens of producers and show runners, and hundreds of writers, about time travel. Pretty much nothing is consistent.

The BBC puts in a fair bit of effort to be as consistent as possible, which I really appreciate. For example, the author Nick Harkaway said of his recent DW book Keeping Up With The Jones that the BBC editor asked him to make a small number of changes for better fit with DW canon. But they don't do it obsessively at the cost of good storytelling and having a blast. I think the balance is pretty good on the whole.

[BlackInk]

One thing I'm wondering about Gallifrey and the Time Lords... What happened to "they turned into monsters at the end"? Tennant Doctor was absolutely terrified by the thought of the Time Lords re-entering the rest of the universe. But Smith is all like "they would return in peace". What changed?

And also, didn't we already know that Gallifrey was locked away in time somehow? Wasn't that the whole point of the Master story? So was that supposed to be a surprise when Hurt, Tennant, and Smith didn't burn it?