Doctor Who

[Super Dude]

Personally I would pick Smith over Tennant. I LOVED the Tenth Doctor, and he was my first Doctor after all, but I think Smith really does a lot more for the role in general. In the same way that I don't hate the Ninth Doctor like most seem to, but there was a definite upscale in quality with Tennant.

[ACID_FOX]

Wait. One of the early Doctors met his thirteenth self? Anyone know the episode?

This one (written by Moffat actually): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_Who_and_the_Curse_of_Fatal_Death

It was a Red Nose Day special.

That's pretty obviously a piss take and not canon . I think the episode with the 13th regeneration is Trial of a/the Time Lord? Can't remember the exact title.

[ariich]

I can find no reference to that, so I don't think it's the case. In particular the TARDIS Data Core (best online Wiki for Doctor Who stuff) says nothing about it, not even from non-canon stuff like the books or comics (apart from the Comic Relief special that Sigz linked to).

[hefdaddy42]

It seems like I remember the Tom Baker version meeting Spider-Man in a comic when I was a kid.  I know that Marvel published Dr. Who comics back then.

[robwebster]

By ariich's appointment, here is round four of the Doctor Who survivor, series four: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=37209.0

We're building a very funny list here. But I like a weird list.

[Jaq]

The Doctor's never met his last incarnation. The closest he's come is the Valeyard, which formed from his darker side sometime between before his last regeneration (the exact words used, because by then they were looking for a get out of jail clause over the stated 13 lives. By the way, if you think that's going to stand..) There are no meetings with future Doctors in any of the novels, and while future Doctors have been shown, just not meeting the Doctor) they notably haven't been described or given a number. The obvious reason why the Doctor hasn't met a future self is that people say it locks them into casting that person as the Doctor, though, seriously, writing their way out of that wouldn't be that hard.

As for the Omega theory...god I hope not. The one constant, thus far, with the multi-Doctor stories is that they've all sucked. Yes, all of them. Except for Time Crash, which had the benefit of only being 10 minutes long and a Moffat story from before his tendency to solve plots with ontological paradoxes became the show's MO. The one constant with all the stories involving Omega and his creators, the guys who wrote the Three Doctors, is...they sucked. Omega has also been beaten to death in the non-canon stories as well (I think he came back to our universe and then wound up in a black hole AGAIN in the audios.) People have been theorizing that Omega was going to return for ages, but I hope not. Give me something new, Moffat.

[Super Dude]

I think it was stated recently that he's got like 500 more regenerations.

[hefdaddy42]

There are no meetings with future Doctors in any of the novels

Are the novels considered canon?

[ariich]

There are no meetings with future Doctors in any of the novels

Are the novels considered canon?

Not really, no. Some people would consider them as such, but the TV writers would generally speaking never refer to events in the extended media (novels, audio plays, comics) like they would refer to previous events in the TV series.

I think it was stated recently that he's got like 500 more regenerations.

In the Sarah Jane Adventures, the 11th Doctor made an appearance and said that he could in theory regenerate infinitely, so they sort of covered that outside of Doctor Who itself, but it's been addressed.

[Jaq]

There are no meetings with future Doctors in any of the novels

Are the novels considered canon?

No, they're not, I'm just pointing them out because some things that people SAY are from the show are actually from non-canon secondary sources, so even in the non-canon stuff, he's never met a 13th Doctor. Kind of ruling everything out 

The series actually has spent a lot of time making the novels non-canon. The novels blew Gallifrey up under different  circumstances, which meant that as the Eighth Doctor range came to a close, the novels had to suggest that Gallifrey could return...only for RTD to promptly obliterate it again.  The novels gave Sarah Jane Smith a long history where she met multiple Doctors, only for the series to come along and completely wipe that out. Given a lot of the nature of the novel lines, I think that's a good thing.

[robwebster]

Round 5.

I like how well-regarded The Doctor's Daughter is. Gone, yes, but won the four-way tiebreak comfortably. A lot of the hardcore Doctor Who fans hate that one, and I can't work out why. David Tennant is brilliant in it.

[masterthes]

Wonder if we'll ever see her again? Maybe for the anniversary?

[robwebster]

Possibly! I wouldn't put money on it, but... possibly! I'm sure we'll see her again one day, but I think it'll be a few production teams down the line. Call it a hunch.


Right! The Name of the Doctor. Rewatched it. What a funny episode.

To clarify, I did love it. So much of it. Geeky glee. Every little fanboy moment - I was actually laughing. Big grin, properly, edge of my seat for so much of the run time. They're not metaphors, either, I was really grinning, and really perching.

But... the plot wasn't up to much, was it? It answered a lot of unsolved questions, but didn't do much besides. Lots of explanations, thankless exposition-speak. "Where are we?" "Where's this?" "What happens here?" Whispermen nicely designed but underused. Jenny's death genuinely harrowing - but fixed painlessly a few minutes later. Peril in short supply. Especially later, with Clara putting herself in the timestream, which did work dramatically, but it was a hell of a foregone conclusion. As soon as the Great Intelligence did its thang, we knew that it was going to be thwarted, how it was going to be defeated, and by whom. Any consequences of the Great Intelligence's actions were sort of fangless, because we knew, due to the nature of the predestination paradox, that they were absolutely going to be undone. Strax's disintegration, the stars going out - entertaining, nice ideas, but I didn't buy them. But then, it might be different if you're eight - and I don't mean that as a slur at all, even though it does sound like one. I'm trying to think of a better way to put it. DW speaks to kids in a different way to adults, and I can completely imagine kids yelling at Clara, willing her to, "Step into the timeline!!" I may not quite be the episode's target audience.

I don't know. I liked the episode, often loved it, but I'm not convinced it was good? It feels like a very pleasant bridge. "That's what was going on there, this is what's coming up next. Any questions?" Rather, it was a quality product, but not in the same way Hide was a quality product. I think it had emphasis on thrills above plot. When the thrills are that good, I think the plot can take a back seat and still produce a cracking episode, but I don't know that it doesn't still feel like there's something missing.

I don't know. This is the strangest reaction I've yet had to an episode of Doctor Who! Still a little punchdrunk. Any thoughts?

[Heretic]

Well I strongly disagree. The episode was near perfect in my opinion, and I had guessed the plot weeks in advance. The episode created one of the greatest atmospheres DW has ever created, IMO, and the tension was great. Despite knowing how Clara was going to save the Doctor, the tension for me wasn't in her reveal but rather in how worried and horrified the Doctor was and the revelation of his secret. That ending was perhaps the best ending/cliffhanger to the show yet, even more so than the fake death in series six. The GI was a fantastic enemy and I wish we'd have more time with him, as Richard Grant is amazing. I think what truly carried the episode was how relatively simple the plot was, allowing the other elements to be explored even further.

The thrills certainly were heightened, but in a great way. The episode was so brooding and worked so well in its facets I can't fathom how you'd ever not call it a good episode, when in reality I'd say it was the best of Moffat's run.

[ariich]

Well I strongly disagree. The episode was near perfect in my opinion, and I had guessed the plot weeks in advance. The episode created one of the greatest atmospheres DW has ever created, IMO, and the tension was great. Despite knowing how Clara was going to save the Doctor, the tension for me wasn't in her reveal but rather in how worried and horrified the Doctor was and the revelation of his secret. That ending was perhaps the best ending/cliffhanger to the show yet, even more so than the fake death in series six. The GI was a fantastic enemy and I wish we'd have more time with him, as Richard Grant is amazing. I think what truly carried the episode was how relatively simple the plot was, allowing the other elements to be explored even further.

The thrills certainly were heightened, but in a great way. The episode was so brooding and worked so well in its facets I can't fathom how you'd ever not call it a good episode, when in reality I'd say it was the best of Moffat's run.

I completely agree with this. Especially about the plot being simple. With anything more complex, I think the pacing would have been off as it was at the end of series 6!

And once the GI had entered the Doctor's vortex, for me the tension was not because we didn't know how the GI would be thwarted, because as you say Rob, that became instantly obvious, but because I did not know what would happen to Clara. The Doctor isn't the only character in peril.

[robwebster]

That's fair! I think the presence of set reports from the anniversary special (which I hadn't gone seeking - just found!) undermined that one for me - but, that's outside the text, doesn't count. Can count against my experience, but not really fair against the episode itself.

[ariich]

Yeah and that's always a problem with keeping up with news outside of the show itself - one of the ultimate downfalls of being a big fan. I'm the same - I just rather put that stuff to one side when I'm watching - otherwise I'd never think that the Doctor is in any peril, as I know that the show will be continuing for the foreseeable future!

[robwebster]

Yeah! That's one place Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS really worked for me. The second I heard Clara was going to die, heard the melted monster was her, I believed it - and as she learnt more and more about the Doctor, I believed it was truly, properly inevitable, and we'd have a new Clara for the rest of the series. Mid-season standalone episodes usually can't aim for those kind of stakes, but Journey nailed them. Finales usually can, but Name of the Doctor didn't quite sell it to me. I'm so glad it worked for other people, though. Quite superbly, by the sounds of things.

[El JoNNo]

Should have been a two parter. I wish it showed her interacting with all the Doctor's in some way. Not necessarily talking to all but affecting something around them or something. I also thought the Doctor's grave site was hurried to much.

[robwebster]

All about the tie-breaks with you lot!

[ariich]

All about the tie-breaks with you lot!

That is the downside of your approach, but the upside is that it still ends up being fewer rounds this way than the traditional way, AND a lot more fun!

So little update from me, I've been getting back into watching classic Who these past couple of weeks. Continuing on with the 4th Doctor (Tom Baker), onto season 16 now, also known as the Key to Time. It really is good fun, if incredibly dated! Some of the stories in season 15 I really enjoyed.

[Heretic]

Yeah! That's one place Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS really worked for me. The second I heard Clara was going to die, heard the melted monster was her, I believed it - and as she learnt more and more about the Doctor, I believed it was truly, properly inevitable, and we'd have a new Clara for the rest of the series. Mid-season standalone episodes usually can't aim for those kind of stakes, but Journey nailed them. Finales usually can, but Name of the Doctor didn't quite sell it to me. I'm so glad it worked for other people, though. Quite superbly, by the sounds of things.

See now, I feel the exact opposite. I knew that no matter what, this Clara wasn't going to die, because she still hadn't pulled off her stunt to spread her throughout time. The half season was done to introduce us to the real Clara, and having her die again wouldn't have made sense, as we would have had to get used to another Clara a few episodes before the finale. I knew everything would be reversed or fixed in some way-- it is Doctor Who, after all.

Then, in the finale,  I wasn't sure what would happen. I knew Clara would be in the 50th anniversary and series 8, but there was no guarantee it would be the original Clara. Thus, when she stepped into the timeline, for all we knew, she was dead, and the Doctor would have to find another Clara from his timeline to continue on journeying with. I assumed that wouldn't happen, though, because after all the times she had saved the Doctor, I knew it would be time for him to save her, (which they actually put into a line in the show! why aren't I writing for Doctor Who, eh?) so like I said the tension was most in the reveal of Doctor Hurt for me.

[robwebster]

Ha! There we go, then!

I'm beginning to think I'm just a rubbish Doctor Who fan. I've got my top favourites list upside down. Still - something for everyone! Rarely everyone at the same time, but that's true of anything.

[ariich]

I'm beginning to think I'm just a rubbish Doctor Who fan. I've got my top favourites list upside down. Still - something for everyone! Rarely everyone at the same time, but that's true of anything.

Exactly, just because different people have different preferences, doesn't make anyone a less good fan!

[robwebster]

Series four, round seven. Getting through these at a hell of a pace.

[ariich]

Yeah definitely. Interesting to see how the results are panning out as well, the first 3 series were pretty close to my own opinions (though not quite the same) but this series is totally off!

[robwebster]

Word. There's always been at least one ep in each round where I've gone, "Really? That one? But it's brilliant!" and others that I've thought slightly outstayed their welcome.

This round? Spot on.

[robwebster]

Not only will we have our next three finalists in under 24 hours...

...but I just made the banners for series five. God, I love that series. It's really, truly, the best thing Doctor Who's ever done. I might just not vote.

[ariich]

Hell yeah. I've been watching Doctor Who with my girlfriend to get her all caught up, and we've picked up the pace a lot since moving in together a month ago. We've just started on series 5 now, so I'm very excited to watch it again!

It is crazy that I've been watching 3 different time streams for Doctor Who recently: (i) the new episodes as they air, (ii) catching up on the David Tennant series with my girlfriend, and (iii) gradually getting through the classic series in the Tom Baker era.

[GuineaPig]

SPOILERS for the 50th anniversary special

(seriously don't click this link if you don't want spoilers)

Here.

[Sigz]

Saw that. I have immensely mixed and conflicting emotions, but am excited none the less.

[ariich]

Yeah same Ian, shame in many ways but kind of exciting as well! And now the fact that they won't be shooting series 8 until the new year makes sense, I had wondered at the time that was announced whether it was because they wanted to hold off on any spoilers - looks like I was right!

And I shouldn't worry about spoilers GP, it's all over every news site (at least here in the UK it is) so there's no way people could possibly miss it.

[skydivingninja]

Wow.  I'm really really sad about this, especially since there was a report saying he was confirmed for season 8 :/  I was hoping for at least another season before he left us.  Any word on whether Moffat's leaving too?  I remember he said he was close to leaving.

[Sigz]

And I shouldn't worry about spoilers GP, it's all over every news site (at least here in the UK it is) so there's no way people could possibly miss it.

Yeah, I don't see how it's possible to avoid news like this even if you tried, it's fucking everywhere.

[GuineaPig]

Yeah.  Figured I might as well.

Ok then.  10 bucks says the next Doctor is a woman.