Doctor Who

[masterthes]

oh, and in a somewhat unrelated note, did anybody catch the promo for that new show with Ten and Rory?

[ariich]

Probably the best episode of the season.  Both halves. I was afraid it would be too much crammed into one episode, like "Let's Kill Hitler" or "The Wedding of River Song" but it wasn't.  It was brilliant.

Completely agree, and I think that the way it leads in to the 50th special helps a lot with that. I've said recently that my only real issue with series 7, which I otherwise love, has been pacing. Without any two-parters, it feels like there's been so many stories, and none have really had a chance to develop. That's kind been the case since series 6b really. But this finale was perfectly paced because it seems as though it's sort of the first half of the 50th celebration really.

[Jaq]

I'm having a lot of fun with fanboys railing against how it's horrible for Moffat to suggest there were more Doctors than we know about when it was something the old series did on more than one occasion-mostly because people are assuming, for some stupid reason, that this means the Ninth Doctor never existed, because of some anonymous source quoted in the Sun. And trusting a source from the Sun is patently silly 

[masterthes]

So, now that I'm all caught up with the current Doctor Who, I'm going to attempt to watch the old to tide me over until November. I just got done watching the first two episodes. I want to strangle Susan 

[Cedar redaC]

My brain felt like it was collapsing on itself when John Hurt showed up. I wonder what role he'll play in the over all series. Maybe he's an incarnation of the Doctor from the Time War that the Doctor can't accept as part of himself. That would mean that he would've had to existed between the eighth and ninth doctors. Some of what the Ninth Doctor said implies that he had just recently regenerated. Maybe from this mystery doctor?

[Nekov]

My brain felt like it was collapsing on itself when John Hurt showed up.

Exactly this, I just stood from the chair and didn't know what to do, my brain just wasn't functioning correctly. By far the best episode in Series 7, no other episode comes even close and to be honest I was expecting so when I saw Moffat was the writer. I hate having to wait till November for more awesome 

[Cedar redaC]

Last night I had this dream that I was watching the Doctor Who 50th special. All that I really saw was the Mystery Doctor talking to Rose Tyler.

[ariich]

Have to say, I did think that John Hurt's character might be some incarnation of the Doctor or related (like the Valeyard, Dream Lord, etc) based on some quite vague comments that he made in relation to the 50th special. But I was definitely not expecting that epic reveal at the end of the finale episode, just fantastic!

The more I think about that finale, the more I love it. I need to watch it again.

[ariich]

mostly because people are assuming, for some stupid reason, that this means the Ninth Doctor never existed, because of some anonymous source quoted in the Sun.

Really? I haven't heard that anywhere, but it's quite obviously not the case, because we saw Ecclestone regenerate into Tenant.

However, the most popular theory seems to be that Hurt is the real 9th incarnation, and therefore Ecclstone is tenth, Tenant elevent and Smith number twelve. They all still exist, just with different numbers. I think that's quite plausible.

I also like the idea of him being a pre-Hartnell Doctor.

[robwebster]

8th into 9th is the only regeneration we've not seen. Unless there was one pre-Hartnell, it's the only place John Hurt could fit. Course, JH hasn't earned the name of the Doctor - Matt Smith's still the eleventh Doctor, but it's his twelfth body.

I wonder how widely accepted he'll be as a Doctor. Like, on Wikipedia, there's the pictures of all eleven Doctors - wonder if John Hurt'll be added. I hope so. I really love the idea. It's really big, and exciting. Properly changes the man's history. I can't wait to see how this pans out.

Also - this. Second-to-last round, S3 survivor. Three big, big stories. I'm guessing most people will either find the choice ridiculously hard, or really quite easy, not much in between.

[masterthes]

Do you think he'll just be a one off for the anniversary special?

[robwebster]

I don't think we'll see him beyond the anniversary, no. At a guess. Would be cool, though!

[Sketchy]

Well, there is apparently one episode in the time of the second or third doctor where the thirteenth incarnation turns up and is eeeeeeevil. Note also that it was pretty much stated that JH is not a doctor who has yet existed (ie. he's not pre-smith in the regeneration cycle). I'm pretty sure it's implied that he is the thirteenth (as I doubt it'll be possible to get the original actor of The Valiard as he is known to do the same role).

[robwebster]

I don't know. Smith talks of Hurt's actions in the past-tense. They share a common knowledge of what went down - I figured they were definitely discussing something they'd both already done, at the end, there.

[Sketchy]

Technically, it's more than possible that the actions did take place (chronologically) in the past.

[Super Dude]

Wait. One of the early Doctors met his thirteenth self? Anyone know the episode?

[Kotowboy]

8th into 9th is the only regeneration we've not seen. Unless there was one pre-Hartnell, it's the only place John Hurt could fit. Course, JH hasn't earned the name of the Doctor - Matt Smith's still the eleventh Doctor, but it's his twelfth body.

I wonder how widely accepted he'll be as a Doctor. Like, on Wikipedia, there's the pictures of all eleven Doctors - wonder if John Hurt'll be added. I hope so. I really love the idea. It's really big, and exciting. Properly changes the man's history. I can't wait to see how this pans out.

Also - this. Second-to-last round, S3 survivor. Three big, big stories. I'm guessing most people will either find the choice ridiculously hard, or really quite easy, not much in between.

WHo were the 8th and 9th doctors ?

1.Hartnell
2.Troughton
3.Pertwee
4.Tom
5.Davison
6.Colin
7.McCoy
8.McGann ?
9.Eccleston...  Did we never see McGann regenerate into Eccleston ?

[robwebster]

Yep, spot on - list 'n' all! McGann into Eccleston's the only regeneration that's not been shown on-screen. Just reappeared as Eccleston, fully formed. Would make sense for John Hurt to be playing the man McGann regenerated into.

[ariich]

Wait. One of the early Doctors met his thirteenth self? Anyone know the episode?

I haven't heard of it, but I haven't seen all of classic Who, I'm about 2/3 of the way through the Tom Baker years at the moment.

But I do think it's much more likely that he is an old Doctor than a future one, and I think the incarnation between 8 and 9 is the most likely one there as well.

Arguments against a future Doctor:
 - Smith knows a lot about whatever it was that Hurt did, but Doctors do not know about future incarnations. In Time Crash, Davison does not recognise Tenant. In The Next Doctor, at first Tenant believes that David Morrisey is a future Doctor.
 - If Hurt was a future Doctor, then they'd be screwing themselves over when they reach that number, unless they have a particular plan to do it very soon (e.g. Smith dies, and have a very brief 12th Doctor).
 - Moffat said that the finale would change Who forever. Introducing another old Doctor into the mix does that - simply seeing a future incarnation does not.

Assuming it is an old Doctor, arguments for it being between 8 and 9:
 - As Rob says, assuming Hartnell is the first, then the only regeneration we've not seen is here.
 - It could potentially be pre-Hartnell, but this is unlikely, as Smith refers to the name of the Doctor as being a promise, and Hurt broke that promise. Can hardly break a promise before it has been made.

So yeah, that's my analysis. Have to say though, although I've been loving the show, this is the most excited I've been about it since middle of series 6. Nice to have that feeling back!

[Kotowboy]

Yep, spot on - list 'n' all! McGann into Eccleston's the only regeneration that's not been shown on-screen. Just reappeared as Eccleston, fully formed. Would make sense for John Hurt to be playing the man McGann regenerated into.

I do know ny early who history ! Was mad on the original incarnation when I was a nipper !

My favourites were Tom Baker and Peter Davison...

I wasn't sure if the tv movie with Paul Mcgann was regarded as canon.

[Heretic]

Alright, guys, this is going to sound a bit out there but I'm proposing another theory that I think might actually be plausible that no one's really talked about.

Throughout series 5 and 6, there are very thinly veiled references to Omega. Omega is one of the founders of Time Lord society, and was thrown into a parallel universe after collapsing a star and inventing time travel. Whilst being stuck in this parallel universe (the antimatter universe), Omega went absolutely insane, and gained total control over this universe. This was the plot of the Three Doctors, the first multi-Doctor special, in which the three Doctors united to take on Omega in his antimatter universe. He was stopped, but it was left very vague.

Here's where my theory comes in. Omega had a sort of device that replicated DNA. In the classic series, he was trying to get the Doctor's DNA in order to have a body in which to exist in, as he was no longer anything but a body of armor. His biodata replicator worked later on in the serial Arc of Infinity, when he replicated himself as the Fifth Doctor. The body then began to dissolve, and once again he was defeated by the Doctor.

Moffat has stated before that he wanted to recreate or assume the feel of "The Three Doctors" again, and subsequently we see references to Omega throughout this entire Silence arc. The soldiers in "A Good Man Goes to War" bear the Omega symbol, and the Omega symbol is also used sparingly throughout other places, such as upon doors and on River Song's jacket at one point in series 5.

So, what could this all mean? I'm thinking perhaps John Hurt is playing the Doctor, but also playing Omega. Omega has perfected his biodata replicator and has replicated the Doctor's DNA perfectly to the point where the Doctor believes it is truly himself. So why is he inside the Doctor's timestream, then, Heretic? Well, that is a bit shaky but I'm thinking maybe a few things could explain it. If he had replicated himself as the Doctor and gone into the Doctor's past, perhaps even to the Time War, then the Doctor would have recognized him as a future version of himself, or something along those lines (I'm imagining the Doctor giving the JH Doctor a scan with his screwdriver and being like, "yep, he's me!") and then the JH Doctor doing something absolutely horrid and then disappearing.

Another theory is perhaps he also entered into the Doctor's timestream a la the GI and Clara, but being the Doctor replicate, wasn't split into millions of pieces and is attempting to claim the Doctor's life for himself. Omega was always very angry and jealous and wanted to become the Doctor so he could remain in this universe due to needing Gallifreyan DNA, so I have a feeling that Omega has been behind the scenes this entire time manipulating the Doctor and drawing him towards a terrible fate which he will have to overcome with the help of Tennant in the 50th. I can see the JH Doctor teaming up with Tennant and Smith (further proved by Tennant and Smith in a clip where they said a third party watched the two's interactions with bemusement and the fact that JH revealed he was partaking in a "trinity" with the Doctors) and then 10 and 11 discovering that this Doctor is not truly the Doctor, and having to stop his grand scheme.

Omega could have engineered the Silence to stop the Doctor or to kill him, and could have been leading behind the scenes the entire time.

In an even crazier theory, maybe the Doctor was split into two regenerations during the Time War-- as he regenerated into 9, his use of The Moment or whatever else he did to Time Lock Gallifrey split him into two incarnations. After committing his unspeakable horror, maybe the Doctor locked him inside his own timestream, and Omega engineered the entire events of The Name of the Doctor in order to cause the timestream to be opened, allowing the JH Doctor to escape.

I don't know. Just some interesting speculation, and I know Moffat has some sort of grand arc behind all of this, and the fact that Omega is a classic anniversary special Big Bad. The signs from earlier hint to it, and while I am almost positive that Omega will be the antagonist, how is still where I'm speculating-- either he's Doctor Hurt, or he's using Doctor Hurt for something terrible.

Whaddya think, Who fans?

[Nekov]

I think I need to watch all the classic doctor who to even begin to fathom what the hell you just said 

[Sigz]

Wait. One of the early Doctors met his thirteenth self? Anyone know the episode?

This one (written by Moffat actually): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_Who_and_the_Curse_of_Fatal_Death

It was a Red Nose Day special.

[Super Dude]

Jim Broadbent as the Eleventh Doctor? Good Heavens.

[Kotowboy]

My memory of watching Dr. Who when I was a kid was being a bit gutted when Tom Baker became Peter Davison and not quite understanding the regeneration thing and hoping that Tom baker would come back.

I soon learned to appreciate Peter Davison when Colin Baker arrived ! :

I can't remember how I felt about McCoy but I was glad that C. Baker was no longer the doctor and I didn't really enjoy the TV Movie but thought McGann was ok as the doctor.

[ariich]

Interesting theories Heretic, and pretty plausible. It still brings me back to Moffat's comments about changing Doctor Who forever though, as I don't see how bringing Omega back would really do that. It does seem like the sort of trick that Moffat would pull though!

Curse of Fatal Death was brilliant and hilarious, anyone who hasn't seen it should definitely watch it, especially if you know much about the classic series!

[robwebster]

YARRRRG!

Final round. Enjoy! Series four starts... Thursday afternoon, probably?

[masterthes]

How are you going to handle the specials? Make them part of series four?

[ariich]

Ooooh good question. That would seem a little unfair though. Could have a separate specials survivor I suppose, but then would 2 out of 4 go through, as that then seems a little too generous? Or just one maybe? Hmm...

[hefdaddy42]

Finally caught up on everything.

Wow.  Can't wait until November.

[abydos]

So, heff, Tennant or Smith? Choose wisely.

[ariich]

I believe he's only been watching again from the current series, so he'll only have seen Smith from New Who.

[abydos]

BLASPHEMY! The Waters of Mars is so good, though.  (Voyage of the Damned as well!)

[robwebster]

Ooooh good question. That would seem a little unfair though. Could have a separate specials survivor I suppose, but then would 2 out of 4 go through, as that then seems a little too generous? Or just one maybe? Hmm...

Lumped in with series four, and three eps go through. 2/10, 3/15, proportion's right!

And actually, just occurred to me - I don't have to wait 'til the Series 3 survivor's done, do I? Big survivor, let's get cracking...

ETA: POW! Look at that! HUGE! Vote on, kids!

[hefdaddy42]

I believe he's only been watching again from the current series, so he'll only have seen Smith from New Who.

True, only Smith.

Well, and Tom Baker, but that was a loooooooooooooong time ago.