Doctor Who

[ariich]

Yep, I saw that, epic fail from BBC's US distribution! They're frantically asking everyone who received it not to post any leaks or spoilers, and have promised to post a special clip of Matt Smith and David Tenant together if it doesn't get out.

I've seen some people claiming that it's not actually true and that it's all a ruse from the BBC to build hype for the finale. Hmm...

[robwebster]

I'd like that, a bit. It does mean I'm being ultra-cautious with my internet usage. Part of me's tempted to seek the episode out and watch it early, just so I don't get accidentally spoiled. Saturday's a long way away. Doing all right for now, though.

Oh, also! Doctor Who series 3 round 3:
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=37009.0

Less exciting result this time. Still! Hurtling onwards.

[Jaq]

Finding a legit download is proving near impossible, since most of the torrents listed as being the episode turn out to be malware, viruses, or something else entirely (in one case, gay porn.) I haven't been looking, but a lot of people are saying that's going on. A friend of mine saw what claimed to be a summary of the episode online, so be careful!

[ariich]

I'm not even going to try, whether it's true that this is all just a BBC ruse to build hype or not, the hype that it's created means there's going to be loads of fake "leaks" out there, as well as loads of fake episode descriptions and other spoilers.

It's possible that there are real ones too, but I see no point in trying to find the leak, or work out which spoilers are real. We only have to wait a few more days anyway.

[robwebster]

That's true! In many ways, the storm it's created means even if you do stumble across spoilers, we won't be able to tell up from down. I like that.

Survivor! Round 4.

[Heretic]

The two recent pictures the Doctor Who facebook page put up are confirming my theory so hard. Bring it on Saturday!

[ariich]

I've heard so many different theories, a number of which could be true (and one of them probably is) so I'm making no assumptions and will let myself be carried along with the story!

By the way Rob, for the survivor, are you planning to do a finals once we've finished all the series (presumably including series 7?). That would be pretty cool, I guess including top two from each series or something.

[hefdaddy42]

I finally caught "Hide" last night.  Two more episodes to catch up on.

[robwebster]

I've heard so many different theories, a number of which could be true (and one of them probably is) so I'm making no assumptions and will let myself be carried along with the story!

By the way Rob, for the survivor, are you planning to do a finals once we've finished all the series (presumably including series 7?). That would be pretty cool, I guess including top two from each series or something.

I was considering it, yeah! I've only just decided I'm definitely going all the way to series seven - up 'til S3, I was just taking it one series at a time. But yeah, it's an option I've been leaving open, and it's the reason we've always had two green eps per series rather than just the one. So far it's The Girl in the Fireplace, The Impossible Planet, The Empty Child and Dalek. Nice mix.

Also! Wednesday, and not been spoiled. Not heard a peep. Constant vigilance still required... but so far, so good.

I finally caught "Hide" last night.  Two more episodes to catch up on.

Three! Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS, The Crimson Horror, and Nightmare in Silver. How was Hide?

[masterthes]

Yeah, I'm pretty much dismissing it as a hoax

[hefdaddy42]

I finally caught "Hide" last night.  Two more episodes to catch up on.

Three! Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS, The Crimson Horror, and Nightmare in Silver. How was Hide?

No, only two.  I've already seen Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS.  For some reason, they didn't put "Hide" up in order.

Oh, I loved it. 

[robwebster]

I entirely approve! I don't know if it's my favourite of the entiiiiire seventh series, but if it's not quite, it's certainly right up there. Really, properly superb. Doctor Who's always a show where anything can happen, but Hide feels like one of the few episodes that really delivered on that promise. Anything did happen, and it was ace.

[ariich]

Nice thread title change!

Tomorrow has come round fast! Unfortunately I'll probably be out so will need to catch up on Sunday morning.

[ariich]

By the way, has everyone seen the various clips and previews relating to the finale? They can be seen under the Doctor Who section at https://www.youtube.com/user/BBC?feature=watch

I think that's all of them!

[robwebster]

I watched "She Said, He Said," but I've been avoiding any clips from the actual episode. Been doing that all series - it's so long between Who, at the moment, that I'm saving all my viewing for the day.

She Said, He Said - it's never been more obvious that Doctor Who is written by the Coupling guy! I could practically hear the music over the captions.

So long between Who - and no sign of letting up...

"We come back and shoot the Christmas special over the summer, then we go on to the next series, which will either start filming at the end of this year or at the start of 2014."

I'll be Mr. Excitement tomorrow, but I am Mr. Grumpyface today. To start filming at the beginning of 2014 sounds beyond bonkers. That's another eighteen month gap, best case scenario. Two specials in between, yes, but this is becoming depressingly routine.

[masterthes]

Should start filming now damnit lol

[abydos]

Yeah. Especially after such a long mid-season break, then continuing only for 6 weeks and then have a year+ break again? What? Well... hopefully Sherlock can make up for the long pause.

[Jaq]

I'm assuming the long gaps, at the moment, are to keep together the current team, allowing Moffat to stay on as well as keeping Matt Smith as the Doctor. It's still pretty damn painful to wait that long though!

[ariich]

I really don't mind it at all. They're filming the 50th at the moment (or have just finished actually I think) and then in the summer they're filming the Christmas special, so it's only really the autumn that they have off to do other things.

[Sketchy]

I have been watching this series, as I really like the combination of Moffat and Smith. It just feels more classic Who to me than the stuff Russell T Davies was involved in. It just feels more spontaneous.

[robwebster]

On the subject of the Russell T Davies stuff, here's the final five for series three. Good final five!

I really don't mind it at all. They're filming the 50th at the moment (or have just finished actually I think) and then in the summer they're filming the Christmas special, so it's only really the autumn that they have off to do other things.

50th wrapped two weeks ago, they're currently on a three month break before they begin the Christmas special, and it sounds like they're looking at anywhere from three months to six months as a break after that. Preparations for series seven were, likewise, put on hiatus for six months.

I don't expect full momentum all the time, and I don't doubt that there are brilliant reasons they're not producing more Doctor Who - if there weren't, they'd produce more Doctor Who! I don't doubt that Caro Skinner's departure has left Roath Lock in utter turmoil. I just find it a little painful, as a fan. The wait between S6 and S7 felt interminable, and it looks like we've got a longer one coming.

That's after today, though. Today, we party.

[robwebster]

Alright, I'm going to put this in super mega ultra small font so if you don't want any potential spoilers don't read it!

There's a section in the trailer where River says "don't do it!" and Clara proceeds to jump into this giant vortex in the center of the TARDIS console. Throughout the trailer, we see Clara dressed up as several of the Doctor's previous companions (Sarah Jane, Ray, etc.) Something is going to happen where the Doctor is in grave danger throughout his entire timeline, and Clara is going to enter the Doctor's timeline at every single point, becoming either a part of (or perhaps entirely) every companion in the instance where he needs saving. This is why he's met her before-- she's met him thousands of times, saving his life from, I'm guessing the Great Intelligence, as being a sort of electronic entity/being I'm willing to bet he sort of "infects" the Doctor's timeline and starts killing him throughout time and space, which is where Clara comes in to save him, thousands of times over. This would also go with the fact that Jenna hinted in an interview that "Clara hasn't just met the Doctor three times."

Moffat is just crazy enough to do this. Whether or not her being every companion ever will rewrite the history of the show or whether she'll just be a "part" of that companion I don't know. In the prequel for the finale, Clara also says that she finds out at Trenzalore who the Doctor is, what he was running from all those years ago, and what his deepest darkest secret is. THat part I'm not sure of.

Either way it'll be brilliant. It has the potential to be the best Doctor Who finale ever.

Crikey.

You're good!

[Kotowboy]

I watched "She Said, He Said," but I've been avoiding any clips from the actual episode. Been doing that all series - it's so long between Who, at the moment, that I'm saving all my viewing for the day.

She Said, He Said - it's never been more obvious that Doctor Who is written by the Coupling guy! I could practically hear the music over the captions.

So long between Who - and no sign of letting up...

"We come back and shoot the Christmas special over the summer, then we go on to the next series, which will either start filming at the end of this year or at the start of 2014."

I'll be Mr. Excitement tomorrow, but I am Mr. Grumpyface today. To start filming at the beginning of 2014 sounds beyond bonkers. That's another eighteen month gap, best case scenario. Two specials in between, yes, but this is becoming depressingly routine.

Another reason I'm glad I'm not a fan !

[robwebster]

I watched "She Said, He Said," but I've been avoiding any clips from the actual episode. Been doing that all series - it's so long between Who, at the moment, that I'm saving all my viewing for the day.

She Said, He Said - it's never been more obvious that Doctor Who is written by the Coupling guy! I could practically hear the music over the captions.

So long between Who - and no sign of letting up...

"We come back and shoot the Christmas special over the summer, then we go on to the next series, which will either start filming at the end of this year or at the start of 2014."

I'll be Mr. Excitement tomorrow, but I am Mr. Grumpyface today. To start filming at the beginning of 2014 sounds beyond bonkers. That's another eighteen month gap, best case scenario. Two specials in between, yes, but this is becoming depressingly routine.

Another reason I'm glad I'm not a fan !

No, you watch Star Trek, and wait four years for 120 minutes instead. q:

[Kotowboy]

4 years for a beginning, middle and an end !

Instead of apparently 18 months for ...a beginning and a middle and wait 18 months more for the end !

[Jaq]

About that episode.

I think "Wow" qualifies.

[ariich]

That was absolutely wonderful. I think that's the most engrossed I've been by a Doctor Who episode, ever.

And Heretic, I hadn't read your small-text theory before, but I just checked it and Rob is right, HOLY SHIT you're good.

Cannot wait for the 50th!

[masterthes]

Well, that was awesome

[Heretic]

Eh, it wasn't exactly all my theory, there were a decent bit of us on Reddit speculating and trying to tie clues together, haha.

However-- so glad the theory was correct... IT WAS DONE SO FANTASTICALLY. Literally the best episode this season and one of the best episodes in the series overall, if not THE best. Like, the feeling of the episode was so foreboding, the sacrifices were absolutely crushing and the how everything tied together is just amazing.

SPOILERS below if you haven't seen the episode...













John Hurt. Time for some random theorizing. Here's my ideas:

-The most obvious solution is that he's the Doctor from the Time War as it is mentioned that what he did was horrid and despicable, and that he did it "without choice...in the name of peace and sanity..." ...but not in the name of the Doctor." (clever title-reference, Moffat!). However, before this, everyone assumed that the Eighth Doctor had been the one to deal with the Time War, and we'd never really seen the Doctor react this way. Saying what was done was not done "in the name of Doctor" perhaps contradicts what had been said before (things said by Ten and Nine, as those were usually from their perspective ("I killed my entire race..." "The Doctor has the Moment...")) so perhaps...

-It's an entirely different situation. Something so "horrible" that actually brought about peace and sanity sounds about par for the Time War, but perhaps it's something Moffat has engineered as an entirely new plot thread.

-It's the Valeyard. The Valeyard was specifically mentioned in this episode, which lends credence, maybe, but we all know Moffat and how he likes to lead us in the wrong direction. For those not in the know, the Valeyard was in the 6th Doctor's term, in the Trial of a Time Lord series, and he was referred to as "an incarnation formed sometime between The Doctor's 12th and 13th regeneration..." He was a dark, evil manifestation of the Doctor, something we've seen referenced with the Dream Lord, so perhaps this is his return.

-Perhaps he's not the Doctor at all, and is a Doctor impostor.

HOWEVER, theories one and three could potentially tie into each other. During the Time War, time lords from throughout all time streams were pulled from wherever they were in order to fight in the war. It could be entirely plausible that the Valeyard was pulled into the Time War as well, and his bloodthirsty, dark nature was perfect for what happened, and absolutely needed to be the one who killed all of the Time Lords and the Daleks. The Doctor could have witnessed this, and recognized that what went down was essentially still by his own hands, as the Valeyard is a subsidiary of the Doctor, thus referring to himself when speaking of the Time War and the destruction he caused.

Other speculation: River's whole "we had a connection, and she's dead, so how am I still here? SPOILERS LOL" will definitely be a plot thread. I'm guessing it was a callback to Hide, as the psychic had a connection with a future relative time traveler, so does that mean Clara and River are related? Perhaps. Perhaps not. Maybe they are related in a way that isn't blood, but something much stronger.

More thoughts:

-The ending with the leaf was brilliant and absolutely a fantastic way to tie that all together. I love you, Steven Moffat.
- River's goodbye was essentially the saddest thing ever, especially with the whole "goodbye, sweetie..." that totally broke my heart. I suppose we won't be seeing Alex Kingston from now on....
-Clara and the Doctor are starting to seem even more romantic now... his whole "you're my impossible girl" embrace at the end seemed like a moment that every fangirl will proclaim as the pinnacle beginning of a Doctor/Clara relationship, lmao. It was really sad seeing River's face realizing who the Doctor's new companion was. However, it was a bit odd-- at the beginning, it seems as though River does not recognize Clara, but her knowing something about her and Clara's connection would hint that she has met Clara before.
-The footage of all eleven Doctors was so lovely. Having Clara be in all that old footage (and the scene with the first Doctor choosing a TARDIS HOLY CRAP) was absolutely outstanding and definitely a huge throwback for classic fans.

Overall, probably the best finale in the history of Doctor Who. Series 7 just shot up the list to either my second favorite series, or potentially my favorite entirely. Brilliant work.

[abydos]

Well, that was enjoyably disappointing because it didn't really make any sense to me. Can someone link me to a blog or something going in-depth on wtf happened? I feel like I've missed on a lot of things by not having the slightest idea about old Who. Or that I've missed crucial episodes from before.

DON'T READ IF YOU HAVEN'T WATCHED THE EPISODE...or something like that at least:

 lso, when did River die I seem to have forgotten?

Not a fan of the Clara mystery revelation either. I have no way of explaining her better, just not liking this much. And River didn't do it for me as well for some reason, that whole end scene felt a bit... off. Convincing performances, don't get me wrong, but it felt quite cheesy. I loved how they added a small comic relief moment in the middle of what is a really sad scene, though, very well paced.

[robwebster]

Well, that was enjoyably disappointing because it didn't really make any sense to me. Can someone link me to a blog or something going in-depth on wtf happened? I feel like I've missed on a lot of things by not having the slightest idea about old Who. Or that I've missed crucial episodes from before.

DON'T READ IF YOU HAVEN'T WATCHED THE EPISODE...or something like that at least:

 lso, when did River die I seem to have forgotten?

Not a fan of the Clara mystery revelation either. I have no way of explaining her better, just not liking this much. And River didn't do it for me as well for some reason, that whole end scene felt a bit... off. Convincing performances, don't get me wrong, but it felt quite cheesy. I loved how they added a small comic relief moment in the middle of what is a really sad scene, though, very well paced.

First bit - library! First appearance!

Second bit - I can't entirely disagree, but on the other hand... it worked! My inner critic, though stunned into submission by the giddy brilliance of the opening sequence, was starting to stir, scrawl fuggy notes on my pre-frontal cortex... but despite that, I had a lump in my throat and a little something in my eye.

It's weird. Constantly full of the fanboy fuzzies, but I'm not yet 100% sure it was a great episode of Doctor Who. That might just mean I need to rewatch it. Whatever it was, it was also exhilarating, nailbiting, gamechanging, with some stupendous lines. I can't think of a better way to spend 45 minutes. Paternoster Gang proving their value, too. Jenny's murder, and everything Strax ever did, were exhilarating in very different ways.

"It's beautiful."
"Shall I destroy it?"


To join in with Heretic, John Hurt's character:

My guess, and it's not much of a guess since it's just what's hinted in the episode, is that he's a past regeneration, between classic and modern Who, that he never, ever talks about, and doesn't acknowledge as a Doctor, because he's done some terrible, terrible things. Which we will see in the next episode. Don't think he's the Valeyard - I think very few people would care, slightly uninteresting revelation. In-story, Valeyard is recognised as an alternative name for the Doctor, and John Hurt didn't earn the latter identity, so I don't think that connection would've been made. He might've been the one that ended the Time War, but I think he'll have done something worse than that.


DWS3 Survivor, round eight. Final four!

[ariich]

Well, that was enjoyably disappointing because it didn't really make any sense to me. Can someone link me to a blog or something going in-depth on wtf happened? I feel like I've missed on a lot of things by not having the slightest idea about old Who. Or that I've missed crucial episodes from before.

DON'T READ IF YOU HAVEN'T WATCHED THE EPISODE...or something like that at least:

 lso, when did River die I seem to have forgotten?

Not a fan of the Clara mystery revelation either. I have no way of explaining her better, just not liking this much. And River didn't do it for me as well for some reason, that whole end scene felt a bit... off. Convincing performances, don't get me wrong, but it felt quite cheesy. I loved how they added a small comic relief moment in the middle of what is a really sad scene, though, very well paced.

Not sure you really need to have watched old Who to be honest, other than to recognise the old incarnations of the Doctor, which they've included enough times in the modern series (The Next Doctor, The Eleventh Hour, Vincent and the Doctor, to name but a few times). They've also mentioned a number of times in new Who the fact that the Doctor stole the TARDIS, and other references like the stuff with River is all from new Who, so as long as you remember Silence in the Library and everything since then that should be fine.

I think the only thing that you'd need a bit more knowledge of old Who for is the old companions.

I would say though that to a more casual viewer who hasn't necessarily seen all of new Who (not sure if this applies to you), there might be some confusing things, but that's the case with pretty much all TV stories that have strong story arcs. I've seen a couple of reviews saying it wasn't particularly accessible to Joe Public, but then why would it be? One of the reasons Doctor Who has such a huge following is that it rewards the people who pay attention and follow it closely, like most "cult" shows.

[masterthes]

I don't think we'll be seeing the last of River. Future River, maybe, but not River overall

[Super Dude]

WHAT

Welp, good episode. But my God, that John Hurt bit. Looking forward to learning what that was all about.

[skydivingninja]

Probably the best episode of the season.  Both halves. I was afraid it would be too much crammed into one episode, like "Let's Kill Hitler" or "The Wedding of River Song" but it wasn't.  It was brilliant. 

Regarding John Hurt, based on a set photo that was either released/leaked, it looked like his costume was a weird combination fo 8 and 9's, lending more credence to the "John Hurt is an incarnation between 8 and 9, but could not be considered 'the Doctor' theory."  I guess the 50th has to deal with him and the Time War, which kinda sucks because I feel like 8 and 9 would be necessary for that.