Doctor Who

[Sigz]

AHHHH I STILL HAVE TO WAIT TILL TONIGHT

[adameastment]

Fucking hell, that was one of the single weirdest episodes of Doctor Who. Loved it.

Alex Kingston gets a regeneration scene!!

Well.. Technically it was Alex Kingston, it was the one before her who got the regeneration scene. Lol

[skydivingninja]

Not sure how I feel about it yet.  I mean, I loved (small text for Americans who haven't seen it yet)
Seeing Alex Kingston play River as the villain.  Would love to see more of that.
The "voice interface" scene where he goes through the recent companions.
The flashback to Amy/Rory/Mels as kids.  D'AWWWWWWWWW

But I had problems with:
Pacing.  It all seemed very fast.  I mean, we go from the Tessalecta killing Hitler to trying to kill River to the Doctor dying and River having the quickest heel-face turn in the universe because he whispers one thing in her ear.

Why does the Doctor bother hiding the fact that he knows about his death?  Amy should have realized what she did in "The Almost People" when she told the Doctor that she sees him die.  So the Doctor knows, why hide it?

At the end, are we just forgetting about finding Melody and thwarting the Church/The Silence's whole "kill the Doctor" scheme.  Seems odd that Rory and Amy were very active trying to find Melody for the first part and by the end they just forget about wanting to raise her?

That new coat the Doctor's wearing.  Needs more tweed.

I mean, what questions did the episode really answer?  We know now that the Silence is a religion rather than a species, meaning the "Silence" aliens may be in cahoots with Kovarian/the Church, we see the start of River Song's life as River Song, which is kind of cool, but we don't get any closer to learning the motivations of the main antagonists.  It didn't do all that much to advance the big mystery plot we have going.  This sort of "half super-heavy-important-plot" and "half monster of the week" thing for season 6 doesn't quite work with me as well.  If Moffat wants to turn Doctor Who into more of a serial, great!  I don't think this quiiiite works though.

I hate to sound so negative, especially when this episode was full of great stuff as well, but there's something that I'm not entirely "with."

[Super Dude]

OK, never mind.

[adameastment]

Not sure how I feel about it yet.  I mean, I loved (small text for Americans who haven't seen it yet)
Seeing Alex Kingston play River as the villain.  Would love to see more of that.
The "voice interface" scene where he goes through the recent companions.
The flashback to Amy/Rory/Mels as kids.  D'AWWWWWWWWW

But I had problems with:
Pacing.  It all seemed very fast.  I mean, we go from the Tessalecta killing Hitler to trying to kill River to the Doctor dying and River having the quickest heel-face turn in the universe because he whispers one thing in her ear.

Why does the Doctor bother hiding the fact that he knows about his death?  Amy should have realized what she did in "The Almost People" when she told the Doctor that she sees him die.  So the Doctor knows, why hide it?

At the end, are we just forgetting about finding Melody and thwarting the Church/The Silence's whole "kill the Doctor" scheme.  Seems odd that Rory and Amy were very active trying to find Melody for the first part and by the end they just forget about wanting to raise her?

That new coat the Doctor's wearing.  Needs more tweed.

I mean, what questions did the episode really answer?  We know now that the Silence is a religion rather than a species, meaning the "Silence" aliens may be in cahoots with Kovarian/the Church, we see the start of River Song's life as River Song, which is kind of cool, but we don't get any closer to learning the motivations of the main antagonists.  It didn't do all that much to advance the big mystery plot we have going.  This sort of "half super-heavy-important-plot" and "half monster of the week" thing for season 6 doesn't quite work with me as well.  If Moffat wants to turn Doctor Who into more of a serial, great!  I don't think this quiiiite works though.

I hate to sound so negative, especially when this episode was full of great stuff as well, but there's something that I'm not entirely "with."

I don't think he realised when he died, I liked how Hitler didn't really have anything to do with this episode, that was fantastic (in 9th doctor style ), we also know that this was where the doctor tells river something, I don't however, think it's his name, I think it was something to do with her life... I loved the robot thing, almost like Time Police (Time Cop!!).

[skydivingninja]

Not sure how I feel about it yet.  I mean, I loved (small text for Americans who haven't seen it yet)
Seeing Alex Kingston play River as the villain.  Would love to see more of that.
The "voice interface" scene where he goes through the recent companions.
The flashback to Amy/Rory/Mels as kids.  D'AWWWWWWWWW

But I had problems with:
Pacing.  It all seemed very fast.  I mean, we go from the Tessalecta killing Hitler to trying to kill River to the Doctor dying and River having the quickest heel-face turn in the universe because he whispers one thing in her ear.

Why does the Doctor bother hiding the fact that he knows about his death?  Amy should have realized what she did in "The Almost People" when she told the Doctor that she sees him die.  So the Doctor knows, why hide it?

At the end, are we just forgetting about finding Melody and thwarting the Church/The Silence's whole "kill the Doctor" scheme.  Seems odd that Rory and Amy were very active trying to find Melody for the first part and by the end they just forget about wanting to raise her?

That new coat the Doctor's wearing.  Needs more tweed.

I mean, what questions did the episode really answer?  We know now that the Silence is a religion rather than a species, meaning the "Silence" aliens may be in cahoots with Kovarian/the Church, we see the start of River Song's life as River Song, which is kind of cool, but we don't get any closer to learning the motivations of the main antagonists.  It didn't do all that much to advance the big mystery plot we have going.  This sort of "half super-heavy-important-plot" and "half monster of the week" thing for season 6 doesn't quite work with me as well.  If Moffat wants to turn Doctor Who into more of a serial, great!  I don't think this quiiiite works though.

I hate to sound so negative, especially when this episode was full of great stuff as well, but there's something that I'm not entirely "with."

I don't think he realised when he died, I liked how Hitler didn't really have anything to do with this episode, that was fantastic (in 9th doctor style ), we also know that this was where the doctor tells river something, I don't however, think it's his name, I think it was something to do with her life... I loved the robot thing, almost like Time Police (Time Cop!!).

Oh I loved the Tessalecta too!  Very MIB-ish with a bit of scary Steven Moffat thrown in.  The octopus robots were great.  "You feel a tingling sensation and then death"    And if their goal was to punish war criminals right before they die and they were so intent on making River go through hell because she kills the doctor, it could be that the Doctor inspired them to punish evildoers in the first place, playing more on the morally grey "is the Doctor really such a great thing for the universe" thing that I love.

[Sigz]

That was fantastic.

[tri.ad]

Seems odd that Rory and Amy were very active trying to find Melody for the first part and by the end they just forget about wanting to raise her?

Well, by "raising", I'm sure that Amy and Rory also meant "watch her grow up to be an adult", which they eventually did, even if they didn't know that at the time (and Amy really somehow is in the role of the mother when Mels is saying/doing silly things - she's the one who's always there - isn't that basically what a mother does?). I mean, Mels/Melody/River was Amy's best friend throughout school, and Rory came in the picture pretty quickly as well. Even Mels herself said that the two "raised [her] after all". I think that Steven Moffat, while not conveying it in a 100% satisfying way, did a decent job at displaying Amy (and to a lesser extent, Rory) in the role of a parent of their own child of whose nature she/they had no idea.

[ariich]

Seems odd that Rory and Amy were very active trying to find Melody for the first part and by the end they just forget about wanting to raise her?

Well, by "raising", I'm sure that Amy and Rory also meant "watch her grow up to be an adult", which they eventually did, even if they didn't know that at the time (and Amy really somehow is in the role of the mother when Mels saying/doing silly things - she's the one who's always there - isn't that basically what a mother does?). I mean, Mels/Melody/River was Amy's best friend throughout school, and Rory came in the picture pretty quickly as well. Even Mels herself said that the two "raised [her] after all". I think that Steven Moffat, while not conveying it in a 100% satisfying way, did a decent job at displaying Amy (and to a lesser extent, Rory) in the role of a parent of their own child of whose nature she/they had no idea.

That was exactly the way I saw it as well, and I thought it was really clever and very nicely done!

As for the fact that it's a mish-mash of story-arc serial and standalone stories, I love that about Doctor Who. It's been kind of the case since Series 1 but very prominently since Series 3, and it's one of my favourite things about the show because it's quite unique (Firefly did it pretty well as well, but I can't think of many other shows).

Anyway yesterday's episode was fantastic, very excited about the rest of the series.

EDIT: Also, we can probably stop with the small text now, it's been shown in the US.

[Implode]

So River meets the Doctor for the first time. We're still going to see River more...right?

[Silver Tears]

Just watched it earlier today, what a great episode! Next one looks creepy though :S

[ariich]

So River meets the Doctor for the first time. We're still going to see River more...right?

It has been suggested in this thread that she will be the main companion in the next series, with Rory and Amy having a more supporting role as the parents, which could well be the case. It would work, it would make sense, and it would also fit with Moffat's intention to make series 7 less arc-intensive and a little more standalone from episode to episode.

[Super Dude]

I know it makes sense, but I don't think River would be a great permanent companion, if only because her timeline with the Smith Doctor is so messed up, to say nothing of other past and future incarnations of the Doctor.

[Silver Tears]

Aww I really like Amy as the companion, I don't want her taking a side role! Oh well, I'm sure Mr Moffat knows what he's doing.

[ariich]

Aww I really like Amy as the companion, I don't want her taking a side role! Oh well, I'm sure Mr Moffat knows what he's doing.

Well, she's already been companion as long as any other New Who companion. To have her in the show at all for another season will be a nice treat for us!

[Implode]

So then River doesn't always travel backwards to the Doctor. Okay.

[Sigz]

Yeah, I'm not sure how that makes sense, but whatever. Time, wibbly wobbly, etc.

[ariich]

Nobody ever said they were always going in completely opposite directions. That's just what's been happening so far. If she's going to travel with him then obviously it can't really go opposite then, as it wouldn't make any sense.

[Sigz]

River specifically said that every time they met she would know him more and he would know her less (and thus from the doctor's POV the reverse would be true)...

[ariich]

Just because a character says something (from their POV) it doesn't make it cold hard fact. Rule 1: The Doctor lies.

But yeah, you're right that she said that. Guess we'll have to see how this pans out!

[Implode]

Though it could be like Homestuck. That's true, but then after River meets him for the first time, she's part that the Doctor's timeline and helps him out there. So there's a bit of both specific time travel and opposite direction time travel.

[ClairvoyantCat]

River specifically said that every time they met she would know him more and he would know her less (and thus from the doctor's POV the reverse would be true)...

Well isn't that the case here?  The Doctor know her more than ever in the episode (excluding the part in which he is 200 years older, which is at a later point in his life) and she knows him less.  We've just been following the Doctor as he learns more about her up until this point, but now it's the other way around. 

I might be wrong and missing something here or it might be wibbly wobbly time stuff, of course. 

[Sigz]

River specifically said that every time they met she would know him more and he would know her less (and thus from the doctor's POV the reverse would be true)...

Well isn't that the case here?  The Doctor know her more than ever in the episode (excluding the part in which he is 200 years older, which is at a later point in his life) and she knows him less.  We've just been following the Doctor as he learns more about her up until this point, but now it's the other way around. 

I might be wrong and missing something here or it might be wibbly wobbly time stuff, of course. 

That's the point. We're really not clear on how their timestreams are related, but based on what River has said I always assumed that the last time the Doctor met her would be the first time she met him. Thus, this should be the last time she's in the show. But yeah, wibbly wobbly timey wimey.

[robwebster]

River specifically said that every time they met she would know him more and he would know her less (and thus from the doctor's POV the reverse would be true)...

Well isn't that the case here?  The Doctor know her more than ever in the episode (excluding the part in which he is 200 years older, which is at a later point in his life) and she knows him less.  We've just been following the Doctor as he learns more about her up until this point, but now it's the other way around. 

I might be wrong and missing something here or it might be wibbly wobbly time stuff, of course. 

That's the point. We're really not clear on how their timestreams are related, but based on what River has said I always assumed that the last time the Doctor met her would be the first time she met him. Thus, this should be the last time she's in the show. But yeah, wibbly wobbly timey wimey.

If it were that straightforward, they wouldn't need diaries. If it were the case, neither would have ever done anything the other had done.

Presumably, the next time they meet won't be set before the first time they ever properly met. And he's already met young Melody long before. River was speaking in very general terms - I don't think it was ever meant to be taken literally.

[ariich]

Good point Rob, and actually it was something I'd thought before as well, but forgot about it this time. If it was simply a straight line in opposite directions, they wouldn't really need to do the whole "comparing diaries thing" because it would be simple.

And we've already seen something outside of that, which is him 200 years in the future, where they do indeed compare diaries like it's something they regularly do.

[skydivingninja]

So then River doesn't always travel backwards to the Doctor. Okay.

This was pretty much established by the fact that, in "Forest of the Dead" that the last time the Doctor meets River is when he gives her his screwdriver right before she leaves for the library.  I doubt Moffat wouldn't not film that moment for either Matt Smith or whoever the 12th or 13th doctors may be.  So what River said in "The Impossible Astronaut" was never really true.  Plus, the name of the last episode for Season 6 is named "the Wedding of River Song."    So yeah.  We'll see more of her.

I loved Alex Kingston in this episode.  Still River Song as we know her and yet...crazy.

[adameastment]

I know it makes sense, but I don't think River would be a great permanent companion, if only because her timeline with the Smith Doctor is so messed up, to say nothing of other past and future incarnations of the Doctor.

But so far, he has met her almost in reverse (or almost as good as). It's not really "messed up" at the moment she is Melody, this is when the Doctor will get to know her, when he will find her. From then she will be getting to know him from scratch, how he works etc etc. River knew him like noone ever has in the Library episodes, which means she does spend a massive amount of time together. I can see it being the 12th Doctor + River for a while, or Melody maybe (depending on how she wants to be known)?

However, the 12th doctor can't come along for a long time surely? We've all seen the 11th Doctor die at 1104 years old, being killed by what we believe is River. Or it could mean either it was Flesh, Tessalecta or something. I believe that the Doctor has a plan that will make it seem like he's won against the Silence, I think that because he got River, Rory and Amy together it means he's going to be trying to spread the word on earth that he died or something like that. Does anyone remember the advert for the second half of the series? With the bones and the sonic in the hand of it? Might be hinting...

My ramblings

[Sigz]

I can't imagine he's actually going to die at the lake, because that would presumably mean there could be no 12th doctor, as he was killed killed, right?

[adameastment]

I can't imagine he's actually going to die at the lake, because that would presumably mean there could be no 12th doctor, as he was killed killed, right?

Yes, but like it's been mentioned before the Master was resurrected or whatever you wanna call it by the Time Lords because he was the "perfect soldier" for a war, so the technology is there to bring a Time Lord back and give him all 13 lives back. The Doctor should know this and might have told River, I think there will be more stuff in America to come

[Super Dude]

Wait a tick, they only get 13 lives?  Christ, where was I when they said this?

[tri.ad]

Wait a tick, they only get 13 lives?  Christ, where was I when they said this?

I think this has been stated first when the Doctor was in his fourth incarnation, and again in the 1996 film.

[ariich]

There's no reason to assume that it is the case though.  Canon has a way of glossing over things that are inconvenient.

[robwebster]

The only number they've ever actually given in the revived series or any of its spin-offs... is 507.

[tri.ad]

The only number they've ever actually given in the revived series or any of its spin-offs... is 507.

In what context?

[robwebster]

In Sarah Jane Adventures', the kids' spinoff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9D-2HJMD9s