Systematic Chaos in 2025

[Progmaniac1988]

So, since MP's return, that has prompted me to really revisit those album with him on them. My opinions mostly stayed the same on all those albums, but Systematic Chaos really changed for me.

This album I used to feel was a weaker link out of the scenes thru black clouds albums. That has now changed and it's becoming just as much of a favorite as the other albums of that era. It now stands up almost equally.


Reasons,
The ITPOE epic book end song. This was never really done in any other DT album
 And it makes SC feel very unique. I think this epic is one of their most under appreciated. It has everything and musically is probably more similar to a change of seasons as far as epics so. Great melodies arrangements, love all the solos. Really stand out drum playing. The lyrics are a bit Hoakey but I'm not as harsh on them as I used to me. In this current state of my life I don't mind getting away from real life and floating off into the fantasy that DT creates on this album... the actual vocal arrangements are so good on this song too! James sounds fantastic and I love the gang vocals from Mike and JP. One of my fav epics now

Forsaken is incredibly catchy, and memorable. Another song I kinda forgot about and I don't know why? It's hooky and a good time start to finish. Again great James performance and great JR standout orchestration.

Constant motion - a banger! Hearing this live during the 40th tour is what made me really want to revisit this album specifically. Catchy, great riffs, super fun instrumental section. I love this song

The Dark Eternal night - a song I used to feel was meh. But saw it live during 40th and was a highlight! Started thinking "what was wrong with me in 2007??" lol love the riffs, absolutely insane instrumental section. The lyrics are corny as hell but I love it for that now lol. Just a great time start to finish.

Repentance - a really great chill moment that lets this album breathe. Very opeth damnation influenced. Again, I used to think this was a weak song. Now I love it, very meaningful lyrics, I resonate with. Great guitar solo from JP.

Prophets of war - again, another song I used to skip. I feel it's a nice different style to mix up the album as a whole

Ministry of lost souls - epic song thsts very different for them. I think the story is very good, and the emotion given with the songwriting and orchestrations all mesh so well. I like how it's a different kind of epic too, a ballad that turns more heavy with that awesome instrumental section. JP's outro solo is incredible as well. One of my all time favorite JP moments. It leads into the 2nd part of ITPOE perfectly.

Great well balanced album, that I feel is very underrated.

[dualpalmpilots]

I put SC in the same category that I put 8VM: some great tracks, some great moments, but some real misses. Prophets of War continues to be a tough listen for me. TMOLS isn't very dynamic, the verse and the chorus are uninteresting. No one listens to DT for the lyrics, but the "monster movie" lyrics from JP are off-putting.

On the other hand, ITPOE 1 and 2, TDEN, and Constant Motion are real bangers musically, and when the mood hits, Forsaken as well. But it's an inconsistent album for me, and probably led me to overlook BCSL when it released. I assumed it would be more of the same. And I'd say that now, BSCL is in the top half of all DT records.

SC was the album that caused me to lose some interest in DT, actually. I didn't fully come back to the band until ADTOE, and I haven't had a lapse in my fandom since.

[Misirlou]

It´s a good album. Wouldn´t say it´s among their best, but it´s enjoyable and I always appreciate heaviness from DT. The Dark Eternal Night in particular is a riff-fest.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Pretty deep low point in the band's history for me. I think one song is excellent and everything else is weak to mediocre.

[JediKnight1969]

At first, I didn't like it (like everyone else). But a few years ago, I started to appreciate it, and now I really like it.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

I think there's something special about the music these five guys make. I find very little of their output to be completely uninteresting. I say this as a preface because, in my opinion, Systematic Chaos is one of their weaker albums. It also signaled the start of several trends that I wasn't personally a fan of, which continued into BC&SL and kind of into Parasomnia as well. I always struggle to articulate what I mean but basically... It just felt like the prog rock side of their sound kind of died.

[Adami]

I feel like this is when that lineup built 4 walls around their sound and have yet to try much new.

[voncorn]

After listening to the CD all these years, I obtained the HD tracks version of this album that came out a year or two ago which uses less compression on the master and opens up the dynamic range quite a bit. It's definitely easier on the ears and I could hear new details such as JP guitar layers that I never noticed before on the CD on songs like PoW and TMoLS and all the guest spoken-word appearances on Repentance are a lot clearer to hear now. Highly recommended if you haven't heard the HD tracks edition yet.

THAT being said, it's still among the lowest-ranking DT albums for me personally. Constant Motion is my favorite song on it and ItPoE just doesn't do much for me.     

[Progmaniac1988]

After listening to the CD all these years, I obtained the HD tracks version of this album that came out a year or two ago which uses less compression on the master and opens up the dynamic range quite a bit. It's definitely easier on the ears and I could hear new details such as JP guitar layers that I never noticed before on the CD on songs like PoW and TMoLS and all the guest spoken-word appearances on Repentance are a lot clearer to hear now. Highly recommended if you haven't heard the HD tracks edition yet.

THAT being said, it's still among the lowest-ranking DT albums for me personally. Constant Motion is my favorite song on it and ItPoE just doesn't do much for me.     

I'm gunna have to check that out!

[Progmaniac1988]

I put SC in the same category that I put 8VM: some great tracks, some great moments, but some real misses. Prophets of War continues to be a tough listen for me. TMOLS isn't very dynamic, the verse and the chorus are uninteresting. No one listens to DT for the lyrics, but the "monster movie" lyrics from JP are off-putting.

On the other hand, ITPOE 1 and 2, TDEN, and Constant Motion are real bangers musically, and when the mood hits, Forsaken as well. But it's an inconsistent album for me, and probably led me to overlook BCSL when it released. I assumed it would be more of the same. And I'd say that now, BSCL is in the top half of all DT records.

SC was the album that caused me to lose some interest in DT, actually. I didn't fully come back to the band until ADTOE, and I haven't had a lapse in my fandom since.

I'd definitely agree that BCSL is a superior album. Best way to put it is I used to think this album was a miss in a string of 6 albums. Now I'd say it's at the bottom of the 6, but still an amazing album! Scenes, Six degrees, TOT, Octavarium, and BCSL just go a magical notch further! I don't view it as a weak album anymore at all now tho. Just the least amazing out of a string of amazing albums, if that makes sense.

[YngVai]

I personally look back on this one with nostalgia-tinted glasses as it came out as I was halfway through HS and at the peak of my DT fandom. Objectively ranks somewhere in the middle of the lower half of their discography, but I can appreciate that it doesn't seem to take itself too seriously.

Even when it veers into the cornball zone it never feels overwrought or saggy, which seems to magnify all the flaws I saw in the followup.

Also, everything from this album that I've seen them play live goes over super fucking well for some reason.

[voncorn]

I'm gunna have to check that out!

It really blew my mind how the mix was completely unchanged, yet because of modern day mastering practices where everything needs to be brick-walled to compete with the loudness of each other on radio and streaming services, it does almost sound like a new mix. Nope, just less compression being applied makes that much of a difference.

And don't just take my word for it, I gots the proof, top spectrograph is from the CD, bottom from HD tracks:



 

[TAC]

Objectively ranks somewhere in the middle of the lower half of their discography, but I can appreciate that it doesn't seem to take itself too seriously.

Even when it veers into the cornball zone it never feels overwrought or saggy, which seems to magnify all the flaws I saw in the followup.

Also, everything from this album that I've seen them play live goes over super fucking well for some reason.

I agree with all of this, especially the bolded.

[Cavalry of Despair]

It really blew my mind how the mix was completely unchanged, yet because of modern day mastering practices where everything needs to be brick-walled to compete with the loudness of each other on radio and streaming services, it does almost sound like a new mix. Nope, just less compression being applied makes that much of a difference.

And don't just take my word for it, I gots the proof, top spectrograph is from the CD, bottom from HD tracks:



 

Wow. Yeah the standard version is audibly brickwalled as fuck, so part of the listening experience has always been sullied a bit by how flat it is sonically. As for the actual music, it's pretty middle-of-the-pack IMO, I never got the outright hate for tracks like Prophets Of War (Portnoy rap notwithstanding).

A couple of "meta" notes:
I found it surprising to learn in the "making-of" documentary that ITPOE was originally intended to be one continuous song, like how they performed it live. To me, the transition between parts I and II is way too clunky, so it was totally the right call to circumvent that by breaking the song into two separate "bookends".

Another thing that struck me in the documentary was how much fun the guys seemed to be having making the album. LaBrie even comments that it was the most fun he's had in the studio since Awake. This surprised me because a lot of fans point to SC and BCSL as a period in which DT was growing stale, an idea that would be seemingly supported by MP stating essentially the same frustration with staleness and burnout in his farewell message, which always led me to believe that they should have taken a longer break after the Score show. However, the enthusiasm that MP and the other guys seem to have had making SC suggests that at least internally, the buronout only began around the time that the BCSL/Prog Nation '09 tour cycle strated.
 

[Jamesman42]

It just felt like the prog rock side of their sound kind of died.

This is a great way to say what I have always thought as well, though I think the prog rock side crept back in a bit with ADTOE (though probably because of the drummer change).

I have seen people on this forum in the past claim SC is just a continuation of 8VM, and I don't understand that part at all (maybe that was a minority opinion, but I remember reading it and how jarring it was to me). They are completely different, and the sound, the mix, the style, the goals...SC felt like a big shift in their direction as a band after the run from SFAM through 8VM.

I remember being excited for SC and initially I was a fanboy but it fell hard in the rankings for me. Over time, it has aged better. ITPOE is a great epic minus the Dark Master bit, Part 1 is especially excellent. Constant Motion is a fun and relatively simple song, and The Dark Eternal Night is DT just having a blast and getting heavy.

I used to love Repentance but it's kinda bland to me now. Forsaken has aged a bit better, and Prophets of War, while being pretty unique for DT, is about as forgettable as it gets for me.

Unfortunately, the album contains one of, if not their worst song, The Ministry of Lost Souls, that has the audacity to be near 15 minutes long. I get what they are going for, but it's beyond bland and just goes on forever.

Overall though, SC is a cool album that I didn't appreciate as much at the time, following on the heels on one of DT's best crafted and thoughtful albums, but in retrospect, that was a big step in direction for the band (and a step in which they would improve with BCSL).

[TAC]

I have seen people on this forum in the past claim SC is just a continuation of 8VM, and I don't understand that part at all (maybe that was a minority opinion, but I remember reading it and how jarring it was to me).

Not saying you didn't, but I honestly don't remember ever reading that.

[Jamesman42]

Not saying you didn't, but I honestly don't remember ever reading that.

I feel like those days were a lot busier on the forums, so maybe it was only one or two times I saw it among thousands of comments at that time. It stuck out to me and it seems like a weird thing to say.

[TAC]

I feel like those days were a lot busier on the forums, so maybe it was only one or two times I saw it among thousands of comments at that time. It stuck out to me and it seems like a weird thing to say.

It is a weird thing to say!
I can see why you'd remember that.

[Progmaniac1988]

Yeah, SC sounds NOTHING like Octavarium lol. No idea why anyone would say that. I love both those albums for completely different reasons.

Edit - SC I go to when I want a heavier, shreddier more playful DT

Octavarium on the other hand I go to if I'm in a more prog rock epic mood, or more chill mood. Sure they have a 1 or 2 songs that have similar vibes, but are mostly polar opposites.

[Kyo]

Honestly, one of the big realizations for me after hearing the far superior HDtracks version was that their sound in the studio while writing SC *hadn't* really changed a whole lot compared to earlier albums. It was really mostly the brickwalled mastering job of the regular CD that made it sound like they had gone way more metal, robbing the music of its dynamics and nuances, turning the heavier bits and guitar leads up to 11 volume-wise. And you have to realize that this was applied as the very last step in the production process. So while they were writing the songs, I'm pretty sure it didn't seem like a stylistic departure at all to them.

I felt the same about DT12. That, too, seemed like they were trying too hard to sound metal at the time. Get rid of the horrendous CD mastering and not only is it a much more listenable album, it's also not that heavy at all. The Looking Glass now actually sounds like Rush and not like a Roadrunner metal band aping Rush. Enigma Machine's guitar leads don't make your ears bleed. And so on.

[voncorn]

Honestly, one of the big realizations for me after hearing the far superior HDtracks version was that their sound in the studio while writing SC *hadn't* really changed a whole lot compared to earlier albums. It was really mostly the brickwalled mastering job of the regular CD that made it sound like they had gone way more metal, robbing the music of its dynamics and nuances, turning the heavier bits and guitar leads up to 11 volume-wise. And you have to realize that this was applied as the very last step in the production process. So while they were writing the songs, I'm pretty sure it didn't seem like a stylistic departure at all to them.

I felt the same about DT12. That, too, seemed like they were trying too hard to sound metal at the time. Get rid of the horrendous CD mastering and not only is it a much more listenable album, it's also not that heavy at all. The Looking Glass now actually sounds like Rush and not like a Roadrunner metal band aping Rush. Enigma Machine's guitar leads don't make your ears bleed. And so on.

Bingo. My thoughts exactly.

It always bothered me how the spoken-word voices on Repentance sounded so muffled and buried, like how did the band think that was acceptable? It makes a ton of sense to me now that when they were hearing the mixes back on the studio monitors, it probably sounded much clearer and balanced and just like or much closer to how it is on the HDtracks version.

Now we know that "dark master" is really referring to the brick-walled CD.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

This is a great way to say what I have always thought as well, though I think the prog rock side crept back in a bit with ADTOE (though probably because of the drummer change).

I distinctly remember hearing ADTOE for the first time and being like... "Wait! I can actually breathe again!"   Having softer songs like This Is the Life, Far from Heaven, and Beneath the Surface, alongside On the Backs of Angels and Breaking All Illusions, which have their metal moments but feel extremely proggy to me, was a welcome change of pace.

[Misirlou]

I think Black Clouds has some absurdly goofy moments (DAY AFTER DAY, the lyrics of Count of Tuscany), but it has some of the meanest riffs in their whole catalogue. I particularly love the inversions of the Glass Prison/Dying Soul and Root of All Evil riffs on The Shattered Fortress, with the added notes in the first one and the slower, groovier beat on the second one.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

TDEN is simultaneously the best and worst of DT.

[YngVai]

Too true, haha. I will be rocking the fuck out while still thinking "God, this is dumb" lol.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

TDEN is simultaneously the best and worst of DT.

Of all their songs I've heard live, this may be the one that is elevated most. Couldn't care less about it on the album, but at a concert, it completely slays.

[three__days]

Of all their songs I've heard live, this may be the one that is elevated most. Couldn't care less about it on the album, but at a concert, it completely slays.

hate to say i felt the opposite way here! was hoping to find the live version elevated it, but it was kind of a low point for me at the toronto show.

i've never really loved this album, it's paced strangely and i don't find any of the tracks to really be top tier - i'd call it the weakest of the '99-'10 lineup.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Of all their songs I've heard live, this may be the one that is elevated most. Couldn't care less about it on the album, but at a concert, it completely slays.

I wonder if AI can show me what it would be like if the singer from Cannibal Corpse did the vocal for TDEN...

[Misirlou]

Of all their songs I've heard live, this may be the one that is elevated most. Couldn't care less about it on the album, but at a concert, it completely slays.

That final riff is nasty. Stank face inducing, and then the fucking keyboard solo over it. Killer.

[brakkum]

This was the first DT album I was a fan for, and I had gotten very into them by the time it came out (actually by the time it leaked  )

I remember it kind of throwing me for a loop, and it not fitting my expectations after Octavarium, and having become very into their past discography. ITPOE and TDEN stood out as great, but still lacked something I was looking for. Most everything else felt flat or not DT to me. I still basically feel this way. It has some great moments, but it's probably my least favorite pre-MM album.

[DoctorAction]

It's nearly my favourite album cover by DT. I like the idea and the overall composition.

I only dig ITPOE, CM and TDEN (which is super dumb fun) but that makes a really tight, enjoyable 41 minutes of light hearted DT metal.

[Progmaniac1988]

Looking forward to my vol 2 boxset even more now lol

[efx]

It's the album that I have the most "complex" relationship with in the DT catalogue.
When it was recorded I was living in NYC and I was one of the 50 or so fan chanters on the album which for me marked the peak of an incredible decade of cool DT related stuff I got to be part of living in the area, the other highlight being front row for the Live Scenes show.

It marked one of the last few things I did in the states before moving back home to Sweden and I cherish that moment a lot.

But there's nothing on the album that tickles me from the compositions to the mix. I have tried over the years to get into it but apart from a few bits and pieces here and there it does nothing for me.

[WilliamMunny]

Complicated relationship here as well...

At this point, there is nothing on SC I have any desire to revisit, save for ITPOE, which I listen to quite often. That song, to me, is the band at their peak during this era. I actually have days where I think it's my favorite epic...certainly a top-3 (along with 8VM and ACOS)

[Cool Chris]

I revisit the first 2 and last 2 songs on the album quite often. Loved them then and that love hasn't diminished one bit. I never liked CM/TDEN/R and never will. PoW is the oddball. I used to enjoy it, and still think it is fine, but I'm just going to go straight to TMoLS at this point.