How Popular Was Dream Theater in 1989?

[Setlist Scotty]

Terry Brown mixing those tunes from WDADU is interesting, although I wonder if he had been the producer for IandW, it may not have helped them have the massive exposure they got with Prater. I guess we'll never know, but you look at how well Fates Warning did around the same time with Terry Brown, etc. Maybe the record label has more to do with it (Atco vs Metal Blade), but it makes me wonder if DT would have found the same success with Terry. Although sonically and even maybe arrangement wise i would have been awfully curious to hear IandW produced by Terry Brown. Who knows, songs like Don't Look Past Me and even A Change of Seasons might have found their way onto IandW with Terry.

It's hard to say about the level of success DT would've had without Prater, but I think both his producing and Atco's push were key to DT's success...besides of course PMU ending up being a surprise hit.

As for DLPM and ACoS being recorded if Broon had been producer, I'm pretty certain the answer is no. Derek Oliver was the one who encouraged the band to continue writing more material while they waited to get into the studio, and it was from those additional writing sessions that AD, Surrounded, WFS and PMU were written. The band deemed AD and Surrounded superior to TLF and DLPM so the latter two were replaced by the former two. Likewise, it was a combination of Derek Oliver and Atco that put a stop to the band recording ACoS, not Prater.

[ytserush]

Kerrang 229 – March 11, 1989 (later photocopied in an issue of Spirit of Rush fanzine)

That's how I found out about them - through A Spirit Of Rush #8 I think it was. The rest is history. I doubt they were well known too much outside of the New York metro area. WSOU played a few tracks and I requested them a few other times after I read the fanzine and bought the CD. Still can't believe my luck in finding them opening for my first ever Hogarth Marillion show in November '89. Before that I didn't hear word one about them since I bought the album from the time of the show. Didn't know then that the label folded and they were in limbo with no industry support. Listened to that album practically non-stop for almost three years thinking there wouldn't be another.

Other than those few magazine reviews and some tracks on the Foundations Forum discs, they didn't get much exposure back then. Only through a massive Images and Words Tour and the Pull Me Under Video blowing up were they about to increase their profile.

[ytserush]

Kerrang 229 – March 11, 1989 (later photocopied in an issue of Spirit of Rush fanzine)

Thanks Scott. I don't think I've ever read that. Even if I did back then, I wouldn't have remembered it. There's nothing in that review that jumps out at 20 y/o TAC.



Scott Ian on the cover!

There was no Fish, Marillion or Rush anywhere on the cover so I didn't buy that issue either at the time. Don't think I ever picked that one up later.

[ytserush]

I'm not sure when I first heard the term progressive metal. I remember knowing about progressive rock growing up hearing stuff like Kansas and Rush on the radio, but not knowing a lot else about it. I also vaguely remember thinking Queensryche were a progressive band, even though they were also metal, but I don't know if I heard that term before I heard about Dream Theater, who I kind of instantly associated with Queensryche. This would have all been in the early-mid 90s. I wouldn't really start getting into DT until late '97, but I feel like I knew they were progressive metal at that point.

Dream Theater popularized it but before that there was Queensryche, Fates Waning, Watchtower, Psychotic Waltz (another WSOU favorite along with Queensryche and Kings X,)

[devieira73]

Derek Sherinian was in Wayne's World.



How well did Fates Warning really do?

I don't know what Soundscape meant, but I guess he didn't think commercially but in quality. FW's Parallels production is really stellar. I will make a heresy here, but I think I prefer it a bit more than Empire's. The guitars are more in the right place.
But, like Scott said, maybe Pratter's more 80's feel in the sound had a lot to do with IaW sucess. And, most of all, PMU. From the last demos, I guess PMU's final arrangement was already there, made only by the band.
All this discussion is really cool, but I think the most amazing thing was to watch that Alex Lifeson's interview mentioning DT in 1990!

[Stadler]

As someone who likes metal, but doesn't really like a lot of progressive metal beyond DT and QR, I had heard of Fates Warning back then, but probably only because they were, to me, a "local band".   They weren't popular in the same sense that Queensryche was, at least not to me.

[TAC]

As someone who likes metal, but doesn't really like a lot of progressive metal beyond DT and QR, I had heard of Fates Warning back then, but probably only because they were, to me, a "local band".   They weren't popular in the same sense that Queensryche was, at least not to me.

I had friends that were in on early Fates Warning (Arch Era). I just couldn't get into it because I thought the vocals were awful, even if the music was intriguing.
I was aware that they changed singers, and I bought a Kerrang that had a floppy 45 of Anarchy Divine, and I immediately bought No Exit. Somehow I slept on Perfect Symmetry, but did get Parallels in a BMG music haul.


Fates Warning seemed to be doing something different. I never really felt that way with Queensryche. Personally, I still kind of have a problem with grouping Queensryche in with the progressive metal movement, but acknowledge that they helped influence it parts of it.

[Stadler]

That works for me; as I said, I generally don't like progressive metal, but I dig QR, at least the early stuff.  And of course I dig DT.

[TAC]

I'm not always fair when it comes to QR though. I don't refer to them as progressive, but I do think they were ...thoughtful.

[Stadler]

I can see the argument both ways. I mean, and this is coming from a real prog fan (Genesis, Yes, ELP, Crimson), the only REAL progressive angle to QR was the concept album.  They are clearly fans of Pink Floyd (Empire has some great Pink Floyd moments for sure) but I'm not really playing QR to my prog friends and saying "you've got to check this out!!!". 

[Zydar]

I'm not always fair when it comes to QR though. I don't refer to them as progressive, but I do think they were ...thoughtful.

I remember (now) them being described as "thinking man's metal". Whatever that means. That the rest of metal are for knuckleheads? 

[Orbert]

Metal, at least early metal, seemed to lean more into the more primal side of rock and roll.  Louder, heavier, faster.  I mean, it's called metal because it's harder than rock.  You didn't listen to metal for inspiring philosophical lyrics, you listened to metal to bang your head until you had a concussion.  Then Queensrhyche came along and said "Well, why not?"

[gzarruk]

Count me in, I never understood QR being labeled as prog, all I hear is a (sometimes) fancy heavy metal band.

[HOF]

Art Metal maybe?

If O:M isn't prog I don't know what is. But even outside of that they have some longer tunes that lean progressive (Anybody Listening, Promised Land) or pieces that go beyond traditional metal instrumentation and arrangements (Silent Lucidity, Real World, I'm Gonna Get Close To You - LOL). I think it's one of those things where labels are always going to be imperfect, but as hard rock and metal bands go they were more than just a straight hard rock and metal act. 

[TAC]

Art Metal maybe?

If O:M isn't prog I don't know what is. But even outside of that they have some longer tunes that lean progressive (Anybody Listening, Promised Land) or pieces that go beyond traditional metal instrumentation and arrangements (Silent Lucidity, Real World, I'm Gonna Get Close To You - LOL). I think it's one of those things where labels are always going to be imperfect, but as hard rock and metal bands go they were more than just a straight hard rock and metal act. 

I've never considered O:M prog in any way.

[HOF]

I've never considered O:M prog in any way.

The definition of prog is fluid and different for different people, but just the conceptual nature of it, the use of an overture, an orchestra, choirs, etc., it's full of prog hallmarks.

[TAC]

The definition of prog is fluid and different for different people, but just the conceptual nature of it, the use of an overture, an orchestra, choirs, etc., it's full of prog hallmarks.

Oh, I definitely understand. I've just never considered it.

[cygnusaz]

I am one of the few souls that saw them back then, I was 18 and friend was very into Marillion. We went to see them at the Ritz in NYC, sometime in the fall of 1989, my freshman year of college. Took the train down from White Plains, NY got lost trying to find The Ritz, but made it.

Opening act was some metal band called...Dream Theater. I'd never heard of them, and was blown away...until the singer came on.  We all were laughing at him, at this 'old guy' (sorry RIP Charlie) But the musicians were amazing and we dug their sound, kind if a Queensryche / Rush mix. After they finished I remember not thinking much about them, and completely forgot about them for years...

Until, my senior year of college, winter 1993, was driving home and heard 'Pull Me Under' on the radio and had to stop the car and just listen. Immediately bought I & W, and thought I think this is the band we saw years ago.. but singer is younger. For those of you who weren't around, we just didn't have information like you do now; no internet, no texts, no social media. Only thing I knew about DT in 1993 was what was in the linear notes in the I & W cassette lol...

So, that's my story, in 1989 they were a local NY 'metal' band opening for various acts. Now, I consider it a privilege to have seen that version, and what would be Charlies last performance with that band until 2004.

And now I'm the 'old man', decades older than Charlie was at that show lol...

[Orbert]

That's a great story.  I always love the idea of seeing a band before they become well known.  Not because it makes you cooler or anything (although some would think so) but just because they were still "pure".  They were still doing their damnedest to prove themselves, they were still getting off on the thrill of playing their music for decent-sized audiences, and they were still making mistakes.  Dream Theater, probably not many, but probably a few.  That's what makes the early shows so special.

My friend was living in Tennessee back in the early 90's, and the local radio station was doing a promotion for some local music festival.  On the main stage was some band no one had heard of called Dream Theater.  This would've been either right before or right after Images and Words because they had a "new singer" who was still learning the songs or something like that.  It was a long time ago.

[bosk1]

That's a great story.  I always love the idea of seeing a band before they become well known.  Not because it makes you cooler or anything (although some would think so) but just because they were still "pure".  They were still doing their damnedest to prove themselves, they were still getting off on the thrill of playing their music for decent-sized audiences, and they were still making mistakes.  Dream Theater, probably not many, but probably a few.  That's what makes the early shows so special.

My friend was living in Tennessee back in the early 90's, and the local radio station was doing a promotion for some local music festival.  On the main stage was some band no one had heard of called Dream Theater.  This would've been either right before or right after Images and Words because they had a "new singer" who was still learning the songs or something like that.  It was a long time ago.

The only band that really made it big that I can think of where I had that experience was Warrant.  Saw them as an opener before their first album dropped.  I dug them and they put on a great live show, so I was on the lookout for their album release.  I picked it up right away, and I remember playing it at first and people going, "Haha, who are those guys?"  A few months later, EVERYBODY knew.

I kinda had that happen with Tesla as well, seeing them open for Def Leppard on the Hysteria tour when Tesla were touring for Mechanical Resonance.  They weren't completely unknown, as Modern Day Cowboy had already started getting some play on MTV.  But they hadn't really picked up a lot of steam yet.

I can only wish I had a similar experience with DT.

[hefdaddy42]

I had a similar experience with the band Firehouse.  Similar to Dream Theater, they had a "change your name at the last moment" issue.  I saw them at a club in my hometown under their original moniker, White Heat, just a couple of months before their first album release.  Good show.

[Setlist Scotty]

My friend was living in Tennessee back in the early 90's, and the local radio station was doing a promotion for some local music festival.  On the main stage was some band no one had heard of called Dream Theater.  This would've been either right before or right after Images and Words because they had a "new singer" who was still learning the songs or something like that.  It was a long time ago.

Was that the show in Antioch with Every Mother's Nightmare opening?

[Stadler]

Cinderella is probably closest. I don't think they had any album out yet when I saw them open for David Lee Roth. I loved them from the jump. 

I saw Bon Jovi, Def Leppard, Queensryche, Iron Maiden and Radiohead all as opening acts, but they all had albums out (Leppard had just released Pyromania, and Maiden had released Number and was already headlining over in the UK).

[Orbert]

Was that the show in Antioch with Every Mother's Nightmare opening?

I will have to ask him.

[TAC]

Cinderella is probably closest. I don't think they had any album out yet when I saw them open for David Lee Roth. I loved them from the jump. 

When was that?

I saw DLR in Jan of '87, and Tesla opened, and then on May 1st, '87, I saw Cinderella open for Bon Jovi.

I did see Cinderella open for DLR, but that was the summer of '91.




Oh, and Bosk mentioned Warrant. I've said this before that although I wasn't into them, I did see them twice and they were a GREAT opening band. I saw them both in a club (opening for Paul Stanley in Feb '89) and in an arena (opening for Motley Crue in Dec '89) and they OWNED both stages.

[Orbert]

Was that the show in Antioch with Every Mother's Nightmare opening?

Wow, apparently it was!  This is the link my buddy sent me.  What a great early set list!

[TAC]

Wow, apparently it was!  This is the link my buddy sent me.  What a great early set list!

The spring '93 setlists were inferior to the fall '92 ones though, IMO. That's when To Live Forever and Status Seeker, and before that, Afterlife, replaced The Killing Hand and Ytse Jam, and before that, Only A Matter Of Time.

All tastes though. Still was a great time to see Dream Theater.

[pg1067]

I don't believe any member of Fates Warning was in any of the Bill & Ted's movies.

Jim Martin of Faith No More was in Bogus Journey..as was Les Claypool of Primus was as well.

I think Orbert mistook me for a member of Fates Warning.   

I was in the battle of the bands crowd.

[pg1067]

The spring '93 setlists were inferior to the fall '92 ones though, IMO. That's when To Live Forever and Status Seeker, and before that, Afterlife, replaced The Killing Hand and Ytse Jam, and before that, Only A Matter Of Time.

All tastes though. Still was a great time to see Dream Theater.

Absolutely...the '92 and '93 set lists were basically all of I&W plus a few other songs depending on how much time they had.  The additional songs at the two '92 shows I saw:

- Only a Matter of Time
- The Ytse Jam (including MP playing Neil Peart's Exit...Stage Left drum solo)
- Moon Bubbles
- Another Hand/The Killing Hand

The first '93 show I saw ditched all of those except TYJ and only added A Fortune in Lies.  The second '93 show I saw ditched all of the prior material and added Status Seeker, Puppies on Acid, To Live Forever, and Eve.

[Setlist Scotty]

The spring '93 setlists were inferior to the fall '92 ones though, IMO. That's when To Live Forever and Status Seeker, and before that, Afterlife, replaced The Killing Hand and Ytse Jam, and before that, Only A Matter Of Time.

All tastes though. Still was a great time to see Dream Theater.

Personally, I liked the last setlist they did for that album cycle as well, even though I personally am not a fan of Afterlife. They were doing the Mission: Impossible theme, Barfbag and Only a Matter of Time along with the second half of March of the Tyrant, besides all of Images and Words and Ytsejam. That said, the shows they were doing in Europe the first time around were great too, including A Fortune in Lies, Another Hand/The Killing Hand and various instrumentals that were somewhat improvised (Bombay Vindaloo being the most well known).

[Stadler]

When was that?

I saw DLR in Jan of '87, and Tesla opened, and then on May 1st, '87, I saw Cinderella open for Bon Jovi.

I did see Cinderella open for DLR, but that was the summer of '91.




Oh, and Bosk mentioned Warrant. I've said this before that although I wasn't into them, I did see them twice and they were a GREAT opening band. I saw them both in a club (opening for Paul Stanley in Feb '89) and in an arena (opening for Motley Crue in Dec '89) and they OWNED both stages.

October 3, 1986.   Night Songs was released in June and the first single Shake Me was released in August, so I had that wrong, but Nobody's Fool was released in October (after the show) and that was the song that took off a bit (it's their second biggest single to this day). 

I have a real soft spot for Cinderella. Those first two records are gold, no pun intended, and I've seen them twice and they were great both times.

[hefdaddy42]

I have a real soft spot for Cinderella. Those first two records are gold, no pun intended, and I've seen them twice and they were great both times.

You and me both.  I never felt they got their due, even when they were big.  Other than their look, they were always separate from the other bands of their time, IMO.

[bosk1]

You and me both.  I never felt they got their due, even when they were big.  Other than their look, they were always separate from the other bands of their time, IMO.

It didn't help that their album release schedule coincided directly with Poison's, and Poison were MTV/industry darlings that were seen as a huge cash cow.  Cinderella always seemed to suffer by comparison, despite releasing better product (IMO). 

[ZirconBlue]

Oh, and Bosk mentioned Warrant. I've said this before that although I wasn't into them, I did see them twice and they were a GREAT opening band. I saw them both in a club (opening for Paul Stanley in Feb '89) and in an arena (opening for Motley Crue in Dec '89) and they OWNED both stages.

I saw Warrant opening for Poison in 1990.  They had the best live mix I have ever heard.  Even in a noisy arena the vocals and each instrument were clearly audible.  Loud enough, but not so loud it turned into total distortion.

[ytserush]

I am one of the few souls that saw them back then, I was 18 and friend was very into Marillion. We went to see them at the Ritz in NYC, sometime in the fall of 1989, my freshman year of college. Took the train down from White Plains, NY got lost trying to find The Ritz, but made it.

Opening act was some metal band called...Dream Theater. I'd never heard of them, and was blown away...until the singer came on.  We all were laughing at him, at this 'old guy' (sorry RIP Charlie) But the musicians were amazing and we dug their sound, kind if a Queensryche / Rush mix. After they finished I remember not thinking much about them, and completely forgot about them for years...

Until, my senior year of college, winter 1993, was driving home and heard 'Pull Me Under' on the radio and had to stop the car and just listen. Immediately bought I & W, and thought I think this is the band we saw years ago.. but singer is younger. For those of you who weren't around, we just didn't have information like you do now; no internet, no texts, no social media. Only thing I knew about DT in 1993 was what was in the linear notes in the I & W cassette lol...

So, that's my story, in 1989 they were a local NY 'metal' band opening for various acts. Now, I consider it a privilege to have seen that version, and what would be Charlies last performance with that band until 2004.

And now I'm the 'old man', decades older than Charlie was at that show lol...

I went to that show for Marillion. NEVER thought I'd ever see Dream Theater live.(Bought the album based on The Spirit Of Rush Fanzine #8.) Thought they were done so imagine my excitement when we turn the corner and see "Dream Theatre"below Marillion on the Ritz marquee. Only had enough money for one shirt so I got the When Dream And Day Unite shirt because I didn't know if I'd ever see them again. Saw Marillion two more times on the Seasons End tour in 1990 and got a Marillion shirt then.

Didn't find out about another Dream Theater album until I was at a record show the summer of '92 and found CD promo copies of the album.