NFL 2024 season - v. Greatest Pats...and 31 other cool teams

[El Barto]

Well, if Tom doesn't buy in like he did, the rest probably wouldn't. He allowed Belichick to treat him at a level with all others.  I read so many times that other player were like, "Damn, if Brady can take it, so can I."
But the Guerrero thing, not backing him on deflategate, and the stress of his mom's cancer changed his outlook.

Add that he hD to fight to get 2 year deals and to have incentives on it, made him push away from playing for Bill.

Respect, but you keep on harping on this and I'm not sure why.  This is not Bill's legacy.  Nothing goes forever; Brady is not the first player that was allowed to sow wild oats at the end of their career only to sign a one-day contract at retirement for the glory.   I don't get this line at all; no one on the planet except for Brady, Giselle and maybe Guererro could have called him winning a SB in Tampa like that.  And El Barto is 100% correct; had Brady not morphed into BBB he would have done like Montana, or Favre, let the Pats keep Garappolo (or whomever) and we wouldn't be here. That's not on Bill: EVERY SINGLE OTHER player left gracefully or not so gracefully ahead of the curve.  Not Brady, though, and I'm not sure why that tarnishes everything that Belichick built.

For me it doesn't tarnish his legacy. He has 8 rings. I just think the relationship soured.  Like any marriage  you compromise and ever e love and I feel like Belichick didn't.

He's still the greatest coach, ever.

But you recognize the attempt to tarnish his legacy, right? Perhaps you follow enough to not let is sway you, but a whole lot of people won't. We're talking about what Kraft and the Patriots are doing here.

[TAC]

Some ex players, even ones that sat for interviews are taking notice..

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/ex-patriots-captains-devin-mccourty-rodney-harrison-criticize-the-dynasty-documentary/ar-BB1kbfFP?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=938fbd34b0c84b349c5551f6fad46a55&ei=30

[Stadler]

I don't know; I don't mind being critical of Bill, several of the positions stated above are legitimate, even if I disagree with the magnitude of some of them.  I feel: a) that none of them are legitimate grounds for moving on from THE GREATEST COACH OF ALL TIME, and b) that some of this becoming an issue now that he's gone and can't really defend or remedy the situation, is part of my complaint. I don't mind saying bad things about Bill - I'm not a starstruck teenager here - but the door is closed, and it seems to be ALL bad, and some of it very nit-picky and personal.   It's like breaking up with a girl and then making fun of her clothing choices and the music she listens to.  Have a little class.

So, with regards to A, if you feel there are not legitimate grounds from moving on from Bill, that's fine. You're entitled to your opinion.

But it's more than simply moving on from the GREATEST COACH IN HISTORY. Bill is more than a coach. He's head of....EVERYTHING. Every function related to the team passes Bill's desk. The entire program has deteriorated in the last 6-8 years. If this was JUST about THE coach, this would be a different conversation.

And as far as B...NONE of this is new news. The only one piling on Bill is Bob Kraft. And he's rightly been getting pushback from it. The deterioration of the relationships between Belichick, Brady, and Kraft has been very well documented. We may or may not ever hear from Bill. Mike Lombardi seemed to hint at the SB that there will be a public reckoning at some point from Bill's POV.
Bill can defend himself at any time. There's nothing stopping him from doing so.

Six to eight years? In the last eight years they made the playoffs five times, the Super Bowl three times and won two.  Wow, that sucks. Haha.  I know, I know...

Like Bart said, though, this isn't about whether criticism is warranted or not.  Bill's not perfect, not even close.  But he does, IMO, deserve.a measure of respect and benefit of the doubt that he's simply not getting.   Again, other coaches have endured far more adversity than that and emerged with their legacies intact and without having to stoop to respond to tabloid level assaults from their former team.  Maybe it's beause I'm NOT seeing the pushback against Kraft that I'm taking this so hard.  All I see is the latest tabloid headline pushing him even further under the Greyhound.   

[King Postwhore]

El Barto. I definitely do. I found out that the interviews for this foc started as early as 2018 so hot damn.  The venom was here before Tom left.

[TAC]

Six to eight years? In the last eight years they made the playoffs five times, the Super Bowl three times and won two.  Wow, that sucks. Haha.  I know, I know...

Like Bart said, though, this isn't about whether criticism is warranted or not.  Bill's not perfect, not even close.  But he does, IMO, deserve.a measure of respect and benefit of the doubt that he's simply not getting.   Again, other coaches have endured far more adversity than that and emerged with their legacies intact and without having to stoop to respond to tabloid level assaults from their former team.  Maybe it's beause I'm NOT seeing the pushback against Kraft that I'm taking this so hard.  All I see is the latest tabloid headline pushing him even further under the Greyhound.

In the last 6-8 years, they only went to two SBs. 
And most players felt betrayed by Bill benching Butler. To me, that was the final straw for Brady as well. It was after that loss that he filmed the final segment of Tom vs Time where he sat and asked "What are we doing this for?".


I say 6-8 years as this was a long time coming in that between drafting and then having to trade Jimmy G, the introduction of Alex Guererro, the relationships really started to erode. By Brady's final year in 2019, the team was already trending downward despite starting out 8-0.



As far as pushback vs Kraft, you simply may not be seeing it. I just posted a Herald article with quotes from Rodney and McCourty. Me, I've pushed back against Kraft in this thread.

[El Barto]

I say 6-8 years as this was a long time coming in that between drafting and then having to trade Jimmy G, the introduction of Alex Guererro, the relationships really started to erode. By Brady's final year in 2019, the team was already trending downward despite starting out 8-0.

At least one of those examples, and probably both are on BBB, not BB.

[TAC]

I say 6-8 years as this was a long time coming in that between drafting and then having to trade Jimmy G, the introduction of Alex Guererro, the relationships really started to erode. By Brady's final year in 2019, the team was already trending downward despite starting out 8-0.

At least one of those examples, and probably both are on BBB, not BB.

Well...it's not 100% on either. BB is probably lucky that BBB was so cooperative for so long. Yes, I think Brady ended up reaching a point, probably with Giselle in his ear, where he felt like he should've gotten some form of special treatment. And he pushed it for sure.
Could Brady and Bill coexsted or found some sort of compromise? Seemed like Bill was ready to move on. Personally, I put the breakdown at 50/50. I also credit the winning at pretty much 50/50 as well.

[El Barto]

I say 6-8 years as this was a long time coming in that between drafting and then having to trade Jimmy G, the introduction of Alex Guererro, the relationships really started to erode. By Brady's final year in 2019, the team was already trending downward despite starting out 8-0.

At least one of those examples, and probably both are on BBB, not BB.

Well...it's not 100% on either. BB is probably lucky that BBB was so cooperative for so long. Yes, I think Brady ended up reaching a point, probably with Giselle in his ear, where he felt like he should've gotten some form of special treatment. And he pushed it for sure.
Could Brady and Bill coexsted or found some sort of compromise? Seemed like Bill was ready to move on. Personally, I put the breakdown at 50/50. I also credit the winning at pretty much 50/50 as well.

Dumping Jimmy G was absolutely on Brady and Kraft. No getting around that. As for Guererro, that was probably a joint fuckup. I can see how Bill might have not wanted that added distraction around, but it was TB12 trying to get the rest of the team on his program. Bill was probably right, but it might have been handled more tactfully. As for Deflategate (which you haven't mentioned but Joe will), that was entirely on TB12 (to the extent that there was even anything there, which there wasn't). Being pissed off because the team wouldn't back him was, as I've said before, Brady failing to understand what was happening there.

[King Postwhore]

Sure but after you do that, you give Brady the 2 year extension. BB did not driving a bigger wedge between them.

[TAC]

I say 6-8 years as this was a long time coming in that between drafting and then having to trade Jimmy G, the introduction of Alex Guererro, the relationships really started to erode. By Brady's final year in 2019, the team was already trending downward despite starting out 8-0.

At least one of those examples, and probably both are on BBB, not BB.

Well...it's not 100% on either. BB is probably lucky that BBB was so cooperative for so long. Yes, I think Brady ended up reaching a point, probably with Giselle in his ear, where he felt like he should've gotten some form of special treatment. And he pushed it for sure.
Could Brady and Bill coexsted or found some sort of compromise? Seemed like Bill was ready to move on. Personally, I put the breakdown at 50/50. I also credit the winning at pretty much 50/50 as well.

Dumping Jimmy G was absolutely on Brady and Kraft. No getting around that. As for Guererro, that was probably a joint fuckup. I can see how Bill might have not wanted that added distraction around, but it was TB12 trying to get the rest of the team on his program. Bill was probably right, but it might have been handled more tactfully. As for Deflategate (which you haven't mentioned but Joe will), that was entirely on TB12 (to the extent that there was even anything there, which there wasn't). Being pissed off because the team wouldn't back him was, as I've said before, Brady failing to understand what was happening there.

To the bolded, yeah, I think we as fans would like to think there was some middle ground to be reached there, but I guess in reality, there couldn't. Bill was thinking Guererro/Brady was undermining his own training staff, the most notorious example was Gronk and him refusing to do the squats the trainers wanted him to do. Plus, receivers were thinking they needed to go to TB 12 to get in Tom's good graces, and of course, the door being locked for Jimmy G (which I'm not sure if it's urban legend or not).

I can see how Bill was resistant to all of this. And like you say, he was right....but...was he...

[King Postwhore]

Urban legend.

[TAC]

Yeah, that story never smelled right.

[axeman90210]

Jets signed Mike Williams on a one year deal for up to 15 million (and a breakfast sandwich ). After a slow start to free agency, Joe Douglas has done well in adding him, Tyron Smith, and Morgan Moses. Our big two needs were solidified ahead of the draft and now we have a little flexibility with the #10 pick.

[El Barto]

Urban legend.

What else was he going to say???   

[King Postwhore]

The truth.  I've read multiple interviews where he said this.

[faizoff]

That dynasty documentary by the end just became a tabloid mouthpiece for Kraft. In episode 9 they had all players whiny bitch about BB apart from TB who funnily enough said I'll keep that to myself. I figured at the time they took the one slightly off comment the players made about BB and turned that whole episode as a bad look on BB and his awful "winning" ways. Kraft was the real star of this doc, he threw BB under the bus every chance he got. After watching that show you'd never think BB was the genius coach just a droning sith lord mofo who was sooo lucky Kraft was there to save the franchise at every moment. The only positive thing they showed during the end was the strategy to switch to zone when playing the Goffsauce Rams and how it threw genius McVay completely off.

I hate how they made the week preceeding the 18-1 superbowl as a tumultuous time for the whole team because of some report about BB stealing the Rams signs during their first superbowl that turned out to be nothing. Like that was the reason the patriots were not lost to the giants.

Made all the players sound whiny and dejected.

I think the Man in the arena doc was a lot more balanced even if it leaned more on TB.

[El Barto]

That dynasty documentary by the end just became a tabloid mouthpiece for Kraft. In episode 9 they had all players whiny bitch about BB apart from TB who funnily enough said I'll keep that to myself. I figured at the time they took the one slightly off comment the players made about BB and turned that whole episode as a bad look on BB and his awful "winning" ways. Kraft was the real star of this doc, he threw BB under the bus every chance he got. After watching that show you'd never think BB was the genius coach just a droning sith lord mofo who was sooo lucky Kraft was there to save the franchise at every moment. The only positive thing they showed during the end was the strategy to switch to zone when playing the Goffsauce Rams and how it threw genius McVay completely off.

I hate how they made the week preceeding the 18-1 superbowl as a tumultuous time for the whole team because of some report about BB stealing the Rams signs during their first superbowl that turned out to be nothing. Like that was the reason the patriots were not lost to the giants.

Made all the players sound whiny and dejected.

I think the Man in the arena doc was a lot more balanced even if it leaned more on TB.

If zone coverage was the only thing they mentioned there then even that was a huge disservice. That gameplan should be the second one Bill crafted to be framed in Canton. Not only did they completely shut down a Rams offense better than the one they had in 2001, they showed the entire league how to do it the following year (where the Rams went 9-7 and finished 3rd in the NFCW). Between the 6-1 defensive front, and the disguising of their coverages, McVey and Goff never stood a chance. It was masterful and a total destruction.

[King Postwhore]

El Barto

[Indiscipline]

John Mellencamp DARES to vocally criticise Toto?

Fock him and the cougar he rode in on.

[Stadler]

John Mellencamp DARES to vocally criticise Toto?

Fock him and the cougar he rode in on.

Yeah, no shit; that's the real takeaway there.   Mellencamp criticizing Toto is like... well... Kraft criticizing Belichick. 

[TAC]

John Mellencamp DARES to vocally criticise Toto?

Fock him and the cougar he rode in on.

Yeah, no shit; that's the real takeaway there.   Mellencamp criticizing Toto is like... well... Kraft criticizing Belichick. 

Geez, talk about having a fundamental disagreement..

[King Postwhore]

 

[bosk1]

Maybe we should start a separate Patriots thread for the four of you, and then keep this thread to actual NFL discussion that other people care about.

[TAC]

I guess we’re all Brock Purdy’d out.

[El Barto]

Maybe we should start a separate Patriots thread for the four of you, and then keep this thread to actual NFL discussion that other people care about.

It's not really any different from you, Nick, and RJ discussing the Niners. We can't help it if New England is simply more interesting.

[Stadler]

I guess we’re all Brock Purdy’d out.

He got married, though.   Does that count?

[Nick]

Maybe we should start a separate Patriots thread for the four of you, and then keep this thread to actual NFL discussion that other people care about.

It's not really any different from you, Nick, and RJ discussing the Niners. We can't help it if New England is simply more interesting.

I mean, the trainwrecks tend to be more interesting.

I say that as someone who has a ton of respect for TB, BB, and the Patriots dynasty. But they have a lot more space to be "interesting" right now.

[El Barto]

Maybe we should start a separate Patriots thread for the four of you, and then keep this thread to actual NFL discussion that other people care about.

It's not really any different from you, Nick, and RJ discussing the Niners. We can't help it if New England is simply more interesting.

I mean, the trainwrecks tend to be more interesting.

I say that as someone who has a ton of respect for TB, BB, and the Patriots dynasty. But they have a lot more space to be "interesting" right now.

I think I can safely speak for the other Patriots fans when I say we agree with that. I was going for a fair amount of snark, but I was definitely referring to the trainwreck angle, too.

[bosk1]

Your brand of snark is often well executed, for what it's worth.

[King Postwhore]

It majes for an interestingnext 3 years.

Can this coaching staff actually coach?
Can the Pats aquire talent?
Will Kraft spend more than what he did with BB.
So many holes to fill?

[axeman90210]

Maybe we should start a separate Patriots thread for the four of you, and then keep this thread to actual NFL discussion that other people care about.

OK, glad it's not just me, I almost started a separate NFL thread for the other 31 teams yesterday

[El Barto]

Maybe we should start a separate Patriots thread for the four of you, and then keep this thread to actual NFL discussion that other people care about.

OK, glad it's not just me, I almost started a separate NFL thread for the other 31 teams yesterday

Hey, I have an interest in the Jets, too. Granted, it's mostly built of loathing and disgust, but if you post something about them I might well have something to contribute to the discussion. 

[King Postwhore]

Maybe we should start a separate Patriots thread for the four of you, and then keep this thread to actual NFL discussion that other people care about.

OK, glad it's not just me, I almost started a separate NFL thread for the other 31 teams yesterday

Only if you post a picture of you in nylons like Joe Namath.

[hefdaddy42]

Maybe we should start a separate Patriots thread for the four of you, and then keep this thread to actual NFL discussion that other people care about.

OK, glad it's not just me, I almost started a separate NFL thread for the other 31 teams yesterday

To be fair, the only thing to discuss about my alleged team is their continued downward spiral.  So, not worth talking about at all.

[faizoff]

Maybe we should start a separate Patriots thread for the four of you, and then keep this thread to actual NFL discussion that other people care about.

OK, glad it's not just me, I almost started a separate NFL thread for the other 31 teams yesterday

To be fair, the only thing to discuss about my alleged team is their continued downward spiral.  So, not worth talking about at all.

Very curious how Canales does in a head coaching capacity. He did pretty good as a one year first time offensive coordinator with the Bucs. Players loved his personality and super positive attitude. Rashad White the Bucs RB tweeted 'NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO' when news came out of Canales hire to Carolina.

I was looking forward to seeing him again this year and see how he progressed, the one thing really positive that he did during the last season was adjusting the playbook to the players strength. when they were in a slump mid season losing 6 of 7 games, they somewhat retooled the offense to finish much stronger in the end. I was really hoping to see how much further he'd take it this year. I don't blame him for taking the head coach job though.