Songs for Next Tour / What Can James Sing?

[crystalstars17]

Also, I think the difference for rock/pop singers is generally more pronounced than for more classically based singers like what you are referencing.  There might be a lot of factors that go into that, such as the type of singing required, the "rock & roll lifestyle," the type of tour and performance schedules rock/pop singers are subjected to, etc.  But I think there is a difference.

I'll give you all of that. It is a different situation. All the more does good training across the duration of their career insure prolonged optimal functioning and success. It's along the lines of the general advice that the more stressful your life is, the more self care is needed to counteract it. I think of a seasoned professional's voice teacher as being the equivalent of a personal trainer to an athlete. The more strenuous the demands are, the stronger the foundation needs to be.

[bosk1]

And I love your point about age also making the voice fully and warmer.  (again, assuming good habits and good training and technique)  I think Michael Sweet is a great example of that.  I liked and appreciated him in the '80s.  But at the same time, there was only so much of him that I could take.  His upper range could be spectacular.  But it could also just be grating.  To me, he really hit his stride vocally around the 2010 timeframe.  He still had great range, but there was also this richer, fuller quality to his voice that really sold his singing a lot more, IMO.  But lots of other great examples we could point to as well.

Are you saying he hit the Sweet spot?

Nice.

[bosk1]

Also, I think the difference for rock/pop singers is generally more pronounced than for more classically based singers like what you are referencing.  There might be a lot of factors that go into that, such as the type of singing required, the "rock & roll lifestyle," the type of tour and performance schedules rock/pop singers are subjected to, etc.  But I think there is a difference.

I'll give you all of that. It is a different situation. All the more does good training across the duration of their career insure prolonged optimal functioning and success. It's along the lines of the general advice that the more stressful your life is, the more self care is needed to counteract it. I think of a seasoned professional's voice teacher as being the equivalent of a personal trainer to an athlete. The more strenuous the demands are, the stronger the foundation needs to be.

Yeah, absolutely. 

[Samsara]

What does bother me is JLB's testimonial on his website...talking about how good his last tour was. And I'm not sure which tour JLB is referring to, but I saw the View tour, and...let's just say, I wasn't happy with the vocal performance in comparison to the show I saw in 2019, which was really good. Bad days happen, but there have been a lot of online complaints on this forum about the Dream Sonic tour and the View tour. And if this testimonial is referring to either of those tours... 

Just took a cursory look at his website and didn't see any quotes from him. Got a direct URL? Not doubting you, but I'm curious, because you can always use the Wayback machine to see how long that quote has been there to help determine if it's a recent quote or not. 

https://jaimevendera.com/

Scroll down. He's the second testimonial.

Edit. I see you all found it. Nevermind. Thanks to those who sleuthed out that it was probably 09-10-ish.

[Indiscipline]

Re: Age and the singer

Age means also an inevitable muscular tone weakening, someway complicating and compromising all the necessary work to correctly set the system, regardless of cords' conditions. Sure, the more you keep said muscular tone in shape, the more the decline is slowed and postponed, but - ironically - you need to begin such rigorous regimen when you are young and strong.

[crystalstars17]

Re: Age and the singer

Age means also an inevitable muscular tone weakening, someway complicating and compromising all the necessary work to correctly set the system, regardless of cords' conditions. Sure, the more you keep said muscular tone in shape, the more the decline is slowed and postponed, but - ironically - you need to begin such rigorous regimen when you are young and strong.

Agreeing, and this is really the final word.

But do you think he can save the Titanic, so to speak, at this point? What is your opinion?

Adding, would working with a prior teacher from a time when his voice was functioning more healthily, and/or going back to repertoire (oh, how timely) from such a time, possibly really help him out via muscle memory toward getting back to a better, more sustainable place?

[Indiscipline]

Re: Age and the singer

Age means also an inevitable muscular tone weakening, someway complicating and compromising all the necessary work to correctly set the system, regardless of cords' conditions. Sure, the more you keep said muscular tone in shape, the more the decline is slowed and postponed, but - ironically - you need to begin such rigorous regimen when you are young and strong.

Agreeing, and this is really the final word.

But do you think he can save the Titanic, so to speak, at this point? What is your opinion?

I don't (and can't) know the shape he's in, therefore I really can't have an informed opinion.

Like many of us, I could only articulate my hopes and / or fears in the shape of speculations, but I'd rather not.

I trust the man's professionalism and pride, that I do.

Adding, would working with a prior teacher from a time when his voice was functioning more healthily, and/or going back to repertoire (oh, how timely) from such a time, possibly really help him out via muscle memory toward getting back to a better, more sustainable place?

This answer I can give even being in the dark, because it's quite general. I believe the choice of teacher is almost irrelevant at an advanced stage of maturity. What's really key is what you're asking said teacher, what specific goal you have him/her help you to attain. That's a very delicate and critical choice.

Another game-changer would be spacing the shows. Age means also (and above all) longer recovery times.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I also wonder how much of the criticism he is getting now is because of the increased prevalence of technology at these shows. Pretty much every show you do is going to get a half dozen different recordings thrown up on YT the next day. The scrutiny is unrelenting these days in a way that it was not back in the day. If people say he was great 20 years ago, maybe but also what kind of sample size do you think is available from 2006, a year after YT was created?

There is bound to be some biological change, but as crystalstars points out, many trained singers age gracefully though they do not sound *exactly* same as they did years ago. There is the rock and roll lifestyle aspect. I am not sure how much of a partier JLB is but I am just thinking out loud, was it really much rosier years ago based on what someone else pointed out is a touched-up DVD from 2006?

[bosk1]

There are bootlegs from the Score show (and others on that tour), and he sounds mostly great.  There was not much touching up for the official release. 

As far as his lifestyle, as I understand it, James has prioritized rest while on tour, drinks very little (if at all), and doesn't do other "rock & roll" things.  And that's been his M.O. for a long time.  But that said, that doesn't mean that other natural parts of touring don't take a toll, whether it's playing night after night, trying to get enough rest on a tour bus, smoky venues, and what have you. 

[Animal]

Another game-changer would be spacing the shows. Age means also (and above all) longer recovery times.

This is the elephant in the room no one has mentioned so far. DT's typical schedule of 5-6 shows a week combined with the length of the shows and difficulty of the repertoire (thought these two have been somewhat reduced lately) is bound to be a voice killer.

And I understand they are in a tough spot here since to make tours work for them financially, more shows in a shorter time-frame might be necessary. Being a lot smaller band than, say, Iron Maiden, they may not be able to afford such generous spacing while still making touring financially worthwhile. I also assume that in their age, they don't want to be on the road and away from their families too long. Giving James more time to rest his voice would certainly entail some compromises that might be tough to accept for the band.

[crystalstars17]

Giving James more time to rest his voice would certainly entail some compromises that might be tough to accept for the band.

And they may be forced to give a little if they still want to have their original singer in a couple of years.

The 'star singer' in a opera or musical often has at least one other singer they share the role with. Not so for James. He's it.

[WilliamMunny]

Giving James more time to rest his voice would certainly entail some compromises that might be tough to accept for the band.

And they may be forced to give a little if they still want to have their original singer in a couple of years.

The 'star singer' in a opera or musical often has at least one other singer they share the role with. Not so for James. He's it.

This is part of why I think having MP back will smooth over so many of the recent 'wrinkles' in the DT blanket.

For instance, the band could play "Take the Time" each night (I'd love to hear that as an encore), and as they did back in the day, MP and JP could take the first verse, JLB could come in for the second (and third, sung an octave lower), and the song would be a very sustainable choice for a 'night-in, night-out' closer.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Giving James more time to rest his voice would certainly entail some compromises that might be tough to accept for the band.

And they may be forced to give a little if they still want to have their original singer in a couple of years.

The 'star singer' in a opera or musical often has at least one other singer they share the role with. Not so for James. He's it.

The amount and intensity of singing required from the lead opera singer in nearly any opera is a very different workload when compared against DT. Opera is really not a good comparable to DT. It's a totally different ask in virtually every way.

There isn't really much more external forces can do to help JLB. The band is playing instrumental heavy music for a what 30 shows (?) every couple of years. If a member of the band can't handle that I don't think there is anything JP or JR can do to help him realistically. I think another posted suggested other band members could step in at certain point while he rests. I am not sure that is a solution. It would provide relief for 15 seconds of music, while probably not doing anything to address the underlying problem and drawing even more scrutiny to the issue.

[Animal]

Giving James more time to rest his voice would certainly entail some compromises that might be tough to accept for the band.

And they may be forced to give a little if they still want to have their original singer in a couple of years.

The 'star singer' in a opera or musical often has at least one other singer they share the role with. Not so for James. He's it.

The amount and intensity of singing required from the lead opera singer in nearly any opera is a very different workload when compared against DT. Opera is really not a good comparable to DT. It's a totally different ask in virtually every way.

There isn't really much more external forces can do to help JLB. The band is playing instrumental heavy music for a what 30 shows (?) every couple of years. If a member of the band can't handle that I don't think there is anything JP or JR can do to help him realistically. I think another posted suggested other band members could step in at certain point while he rests. I am not sure that is a solution. It would provide relief for 15 seconds of music, while probably not doing anything to address the underlying problem and drawing even more scrutiny to the issue.

Quite a few misconceptions and factual errors in such a short post.

1)DT certainly play a lot more shows than what you suggest. Typically anywhere between 60 to 100 in the years when they tour. You do not get 1800+ shows under your belt by playing 30 show every couple of years.

2)Even if they did play as little as you suggest, it would be irrelevant. The problem is not primarily in the total number of shows, but the fact that you have 5-6 of them in a single week, or 25 within one tour leg (a little over a month).

3)You claim opera is different and should not be compared to DT. Yet you use it to imply that singing DT show is much easier than opera performance. You can't have it both ways. I don't think you can make any definite claim either way. True, opera is acoustically very demanding, but even lead singers spend most of their singing on recitatives and have few arias. And the great majority of their role lies in their comfortable range, with relatively few really high notes. And they use the most sustainable technique invented, they don't need to sound edgy, raspy or screamy (which are all stylistic choices that reduce singing sustainability). And while a singer in DT style band has instrumental breaks to recover, opera singers share stage with many other singers. They do get a lot of breaks too.

4)Honestly, I don't understand how anyone can watch a show like Live Scenes from N.Y (or even something more recent, as Breaking the Fourth Wall) and come to the conclusion that singing like this 5-6 times a week for a couple of weeks in a row is not going to be maior factor in performance sustainability.

[crystalstars17]

True, opera is acoustically very demanding, but even lead singers spend most of their singing on recitatives and have few arias. And the great majority of their role lies in their comfortable range, with relatively few really high notes. And they use the most sustainable technique invented, they don't need to sound edgy, raspy or screamy (which are all stylistic choices that reduce singing sustainability). And while a singer in DT style band has instrumental breaks to recover, opera singers share stage with many other singers. They do get a lot of breaks too.

Spot on. And what James is doing is (roughly) the equivalent of singing 18 arias per night. And in the case of The Astonishing, James WAS the cast! To pull an example from musical theater, that's the equivalent of having one guy stand there and sing all the way through Les Miserables. That's crazy!

I still say that tour did him no favors. A lot of his recent issues began after that tour, and it's no wonder.

[WilliamMunny]

True, opera is acoustically very demanding, but even lead singers spend most of their singing on recitatives and have few arias. And the great majority of their role lies in their comfortable range, with relatively few really high notes. And they use the most sustainable technique invented, they don't need to sound edgy, raspy or screamy (which are all stylistic choices that reduce singing sustainability). And while a singer in DT style band has instrumental breaks to recover, opera singers share stage with many other singers. They do get a lot of breaks too.

Spot on. And what James is doing is (roughly) the equivalent of singing 18 arias per night. And in the case of The Astonishing, James WAS the cast! To pull an example from musical theater, that's the equivalent of having one guy stand there and sing all the way through Les Miserables. That's crazy!

I still say that tour did him no favors. A lot of his recent issues began after that tour, and it's no wonder.

Crystal, once again I am curious about something and would like your educated opinion–what do you make of James' pitch issues?

As many have pointed out, the lack of range or control on the recent tour was one thing, but his inability to stay 'on key' (hate that term, but you know what I mean) was fairly pronounced.

Me, personally, I have no issues with a singer adjusting their range–my suggestion to sing everything lower speaks to my desire to hear James deliver something sustainable (I love his voice, regardless of what register he's singing in). That said, singing an entire stanza 30-50 cents flat speaks to perhaps an issue with his hearing/monitors???

What are your thoughts on this?

[crystalstars17]

Pitch is not something I've dealt with personally nor during student teaching (we had a girl with a lovely coloratura voice but with bad pitch issues - she worked only with the resident vocal therapy teacher), so I can't speak to this with any authority (paging Indiscipline?). But IME singers with this issue need specialized ear training and are also typically sent straight to an ENT.

As far as I know, James doesn't have this issue in the studio (correct me here pls anyone) nor live earlier in his career (and again), so I would wonder the same things - monitors/can he hear himself, hearing loss due to years on stage in a rock band, etc. All the more should he be seeking out medical advice and vocal therapists, not celebrity coaches with gimmicky tricks.

[Indiscipline]

I have been paged, but please never on grounds of "authority"; I feel more comfortable with "expertise", which probably prevents me from being full of crap, but perfectly allows me to be dead wrong.

Generally speaking ( I am not talking about James), and excluding (because already mentioned and / or hypotesised) ear-loss or gear difficulties, intonation issues at an advanced age are often a consequence of muscular decline and relative unsound technical reactions to the problem. I'll try to break it into categories and examples, but please be aware I'm horribly simplifying and zooming on physical zones, while in reality the whole system goes literally from toes to forehead and it's inevitably connected. We are ever so often thinking digitally, but homo sapiens is an analogic being and singing is definitely an analogic technique.

1) Going over the note's centre (sounding sharp):

A) at a young age it's often due to incorrect abdominal technique; instead of syphoning air by hooking frontal and lateral abs (the muscles impeding the diaphragm's ascent), the singer "pushes" the air with the muscles around the throat. Such activity doesn't allow for a controlled flux and clashes with the oral cavity's "forecast" position for the desired frequence, almost always exceeding it.     

B) At an advanced age, such "push" may very well be a sort of compensation for a decline of the cricoid cartilage, setting the larynx lower. The singer more or less instinctively feels the need to "help" the air flux that now has to deal with an augmented resonance space (the"room" where sound is built, where the soft palate is the roof and the larynx is the floor). A not technique-savvy singer may "push" just because he just feels weakened by age or low energy.

2) Going under the note's centre (sounding flat): at a young age it's almost always a technical shortcoming*, while at an advanced age it's often due to a decline of the palatine muscles (the roof I was rambling about above). The singers doesn't raise the palatine veil and he instantly loses the high harmonics in his frequencies (while, and here's the trap, sounding perfectly fine inside his/her head). The cricoid issue may still apply: a lowered "floor" makes it difficult for the air flux to reach the "roof" without adjustements. My wife (middle-age) is currently dealing with this, and it's a bitch of a problem.

*Worth mentioning, because an experienced singer may have structural technical shortcomings. The singer (and his/her ear) is supposed to set up the resonance space while breathing the air in, and when they get said air out (singing) they only have to keep the set position in place and let the flux run the course in reverse. Sometimes singers just inhale and presume to set space and intonation position "on the way out". It's a steep gamble when you're young, a lost battle when you're old. 

AGAIN, this is very general and very superficial.   

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Giving James more time to rest his voice would certainly entail some compromises that might be tough to accept for the band.

And they may be forced to give a little if they still want to have their original singer in a couple of years.

The 'star singer' in a opera or musical often has at least one other singer they share the role with. Not so for James. He's it.

The amount and intensity of singing required from the lead opera singer in nearly any opera is a very different workload when compared against DT. Opera is really not a good comparable to DT. It's a totally different ask in virtually every way.

There isn't really much more external forces can do to help JLB. The band is playing instrumental heavy music for a what 30 shows (?) every couple of years. If a member of the band can't handle that I don't think there is anything JP or JR can do to help him realistically. I think another posted suggested other band members could step in at certain point while he rests. I am not sure that is a solution. It would provide relief for 15 seconds of music, while probably not doing anything to address the underlying problem and drawing even more scrutiny to the issue.

Quite a few misconceptions and factual errors in such a short post.

1)DT certainly play a lot more shows than what you suggest. Typically anywhere between 60 to 100 in the years when they tour. You do not get 1800+ shows under your belt by playing 30 show every couple of years.

2)Even if they did play as little as you suggest, it would be irrelevant. The problem is not primarily in the total number of shows, but the fact that you have 5-6 of them in a single week, or 25 within one tour leg (a little over a month).

3)You claim opera is different and should not be compared to DT. Yet you use it to imply that singing DT show is much easier than opera performance. You can't have it both ways. I don't think you can make any definite claim either way. True, opera is acoustically very demanding, but even lead singers spend most of their singing on recitatives and have few arias. And the great majority of their role lies in their comfortable range, with relatively few really high notes. And they use the most sustainable technique invented, they don't need to sound edgy, raspy or screamy (which are all stylistic choices that reduce singing sustainability). And while a singer in DT style band has instrumental breaks to recover, opera singers share stage with many other singers. They do get a lot of breaks too.

4)Honestly, I don't understand how anyone can watch a show like Live Scenes from N.Y (or even something more recent, as Breaking the Fourth Wall) and come to the conclusion that singing like this 5-6 times a week for a couple of weeks in a row is not going to be maior factor in performance sustainability.

Sorry for the confusion. I meant around 30 per leg of the tour, and that does indeed ad up to more shows per tour every couple of years. As you say, it doesn't matter. Onto the more interesting part of the discussion...

Using opera singers as a goal post or example of what JLB can realistically achieve doesn't make a whole lot of sense for a few reasons that have been explained ad nauseum already. That was my point. It doesn't mean that no comparison can ever be made between what opera singers do vs. what rock singers do. Some styles of music are simply harder and more complicated to perform; not better or superior, just more taxing. Just like playing Progressive Metal is more physically demanding and complicated than playing the Blues despite the fact that the two styles couldn't be more different. What BB King played in his mid 50s was just less technically and physically involved vs. what John Petrucci is playing now. His practice routine - if there was one and that is in no way an insult - differed accordingly. That is just the reality and it is the reason why it makes no sense to use the demands of one tradition to set expectations around a performer in another. You correctly pointed out a couple key differences yourself. I think those are good examples that show how different JLB's job is quite different from the Opera stars of today or even yesteryear.

One thing we didn't talk about is the audience expectations. I am going to try my best to discuss this without offending anyone or the rules here. Let's just say that what happened on the View tour would never *EVER* happen in a professional opera performance. The Metropolitan Opera would never allow - for their own sake - one of their singers to get up in front of that audience and have the kind of nights that JLB had...over and over again. As a former opera junkie I can say that with complete certitude. Again, just a totally different ask and a different amount of work required.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

True, opera is acoustically very demanding, but even lead singers spend most of their singing on recitatives and have few arias. And the great majority of their role lies in their comfortable range, with relatively few really high notes. And they use the most sustainable technique invented, they don't need to sound edgy, raspy or screamy (which are all stylistic choices that reduce singing sustainability). And while a singer in DT style band has instrumental breaks to recover, opera singers share stage with many other singers. They do get a lot of breaks too.

Spot on. And what James is doing is (roughly) the equivalent of singing 18 arias per night. And in the case of The Astonishing, James WAS the cast! To pull an example from musical theater, that's the equivalent of having one guy stand there and sing all the way through Les Miserables. That's crazy!

I still say that tour did him no favors. A lot of his recent issues began after that tour, and it's no wonder.

What he does in one night is the same as singing 18 arias per night?

We could try an experiment. I could find the sheet music for a couple of DT songs and I could put them side by side some standard arias and we can see how even 1 DT song compares to 1 aria. It might give us all some perspective on the similarities (if any) and differences between the two styles.

[The Paddies]

There are bootlegs from the Score show (and others on that tour), and he sounds mostly great.  There was not much touching up for the official release. 

As far as his lifestyle, as I understand it, James has prioritized rest while on tour, drinks very little (if at all), and doesn't do other "rock & roll" things.  And that's been his M.O. for a long time.  But that said, that doesn't mean that other natural parts of touring don't take a toll, whether it's playing night after night, trying to get enough rest on a tour bus, smoky venues, and what have you.

Not while on tour perhaps, but James drinks alcohol. I've done an interview with him and JP with whiskeys floating around (this was during the Distance Over Time promo day in Berlin). And IIRC I've seen photos of James with wine.

[MoraWintersoul]

I think bosk meant "while on tour" as well. I've heard him and MM talk about enjoying some red wine every now and again.

[crystalstars17]

I have been paged, but please never on grounds of "authority"; I feel more comfortable with "expertise", which probably prevents me from being full of crap, but perfectly allows me to be dead wrong.

Lol, ok!  But still I defer to your level of knowledge, which is greater than my own.

Generally speaking ( I am not talking about James), and excluding (because already mentioned and / or hypotesised) ear-loss or gear difficulties, intonation issues at an advanced age are often a consequence of muscular decline and relative unsound technical reactions to the problem.

1) Going over the note's centre (sounding sharp):

A) at a young age it's often due to incorrect abdominal technique; instead of syphoning air by hooking frontal and lateral abs (the muscles impeding the diaphragm's ascent), the singer "pushes" the air with the muscles around the throat. Such activity doesn't allow for a controlled flux and clashes with the oral cavity's "forecast" position for the desired frequence, almost always exceeding it.

B) At an advanced age, such "push" may very well be a sort of compensation for a decline of the cricoid cartilage, setting the larynx lower. The singer more or less instinctively feels the need to "help" the air flux that now has to deal with an augmented resonance space (the"room" where sound is built, where the soft palate is the roof and the larynx is the floor). A not technique-savvy singer may "push" just because he just feels weakened by age or low energy.

I definitely feel as if James has been pushing. But the phrases in bold are interesting to me because I would've thought he was dealing with the opposite - not overcompensating for having more space, but less? It's as if I often hear a colllapse of the soft palate, which in turn makes him push, the larynx rises, and he goes sharp because this perfect storm is happening which not only creates that strident, nasal sound as well as limited, ok truncated, access to his upper register?

2) Going under the note's centre (sounding flat): at a young age it's almost always a technical shortcoming*, while at an advanced age it's often due to a decline of the palatine muscles (the roof I was rambling about above). The singers doesn't raise the palatine veil and he instantly loses the high harmonics in his frequencies (while, and here's the trap, sounding perfectly fine inside his/her head). The cricoid issue may still apply: a lowered "floor" makes it difficult for the air flux to reach the "roof" without adjustements.

Haha, yes I'm sure he sounds great inside his own head(!), which tells me he's not working (either at all or just not often enough) with a trustworthy second set of ears.

Often it does sound like he's not allowing enough space for the note before going for it. Or at different times, that his palate is collapsing due to lazy technique (or, is this the age issue?), then he literally falls flat, gets strident, cueing the above aforementioned cluster of issues, causing him to become both flat and sharp at the same time (Ouch). Poor James. 

*Worth mentioning, because an experienced singer may have structural technical shortcomings. The singer (and his/her ear) is supposed to set up the resonance space while breathing the air in, and when they get said air out (singing) they only have to keep the set position in place and let the flux run the course in reverse. Sometimes singers just inhale and presume to set space and intonation position "on the way out". It's a steep gamble when you're young, a lost battle when you're old. 

I agree and he needs to rebuild. I'm of a mind that he can, that there's still life left in that voice, that with the right care and attention, he can prevail. But I am learning something about myself that I have a tendency to be a bit of a terminal optimist at times.

[Indiscipline]

crystal, I am humbled by the credit you give me, and I must stress once again my analysis was absolutely not James-based, but age-based. *smiles*

[crystalstars17]

crystal, I am humbled by the credit you give me, and I must stress once again my analysis was absolutely not James-based, but age-based. *smiles*

Got it 

We could try an experiment. I could find the sheet music for a couple of DT songs and I could put them side by side some standard arias and we can see how even 1 DT song compares to 1 aria. It might give us all some perspective on the similarities (if any) and differences between the two styles.

That would actually be a fun comparison, if not for either of us to prove a point but just 'for science'. Perhaps eighteen arias was hyperbolic. It's probably not actually possible to measure how strenuous an operatic aria vs a DT song (say from I&W) actually is, though it would be an interesting study. But when I refer to classical techique in reference to James (or any singer) it's because the old adage "the voice only works one way" is simply true.

[gzarruk]

I think bosk meant "while on tour" as well. I've heard him and MM talk about enjoying some red wine every now and again.

I guess that might not happen now with MP

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

crystal, I am humbled by the credit you give me, and I must stress once again my analysis was absolutely not James-based, but age-based. *smiles*

Got it 

We could try an experiment. I could find the sheet music for a couple of DT songs and I could put them side by side some standard arias and we can see how even 1 DT song compares to 1 aria. It might give us all some perspective on the similarities (if any) and differences between the two styles.

That would actually be a fun comparison, if not for either of us to prove a point but just 'for science'. Perhaps eighteen arias was hyperbolic. It's probably not actually possible to measure how strenuous an operatic aria vs a DT song (say from I&W) actually is, though it would be an interesting study. But when I refer to classical techique in reference to James (or any singer) it's because the old adage "the voice only works one way" is simply true.

We should be able to understand at least something about how physically strenuous one piece of music is to sing vs another. I mean, if I gave you the sheet music for Puff the Magic Dragon on guitar and then gave you the sheet music for the Glass Prison, I think you would be able to say definitely one is a different level of demand.

[crystalstars17]

I think you would be able to say definitely one is a different level of demand.

On a level, you would. But I would guess something like Learning to Live is equivalent to an aria. You have not just high notes but the energy it takes to sustain the phrasing and the tessitura, not to mention whether or not the piece is suited to the individual singer's best strengths (which may have changed, in James's case). I just think with the voice, there's just a lot more going on and it would be harder to ascertain.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I think you would be able to say definitely one is a different level of demand.

On a level, you would. But I would guess something like Learning to Live is equivalent to an aria. You have not just high notes but the energy it takes to sustain the phrasing and the tessitura, not to mention whether or not the piece is suited to the individual singer's best strengths (which may have changed, in James's case). I just think with the voice, there's just a lot more going on and it would be harder to ascertain.

I have a lot of sheet music lying around so I'll see if there is anything we can share with the readers of this thread. If people are curious about how these two styles are similar or different, I think it could be an informative comparison. It is a topic that has come up a few times since the View tour so it's worth further exploration, imo.

[Indiscipline]

^Comparing DT sheet music and opera sheet music is very interesting, but what you get is a musical comparison.

You were perfectly right when you wrote of totally different asks.
 

[crystalstars17]

Indiscipline, would you consider a comparison with musical theater a more accurate (at least in some ways) comparison for James?

[Indiscipline]

Indiscipline, would you consider a comparison with musical theater a more accurate (at least in some ways) comparison for James?

Honestly, the only kind of comparisons I can find (still arguably) productive are between different tours / years of James.

While some branches of musical theatre are vocally closer to James' skillset than opera, every structural aspect (from repertoire-building during formative years to circumstances of specialisation, hiring, staging-rehearsing, repetitions and everything in between) of the performance is still filable under 'totally different ask'.

I get you, but I respectfully believe you are making these comparisons in a void, so to speak, as in a theoretical laboratory.




     

[crystalstars17]

I get you, but I respectfully believe you are making these comparisons in a void, so to speak, as in a theoretical laboratory.     

I suppose that's just part of the fun for me, in a nerdy way    All we can really do is wait and see what James does with his own situation, but I enjoy the theorizing.

[Tony From Long Island]

Another game-changer would be spacing the shows. Age means also (and above all) longer recovery times.

This is the elephant in the room no one has mentioned so far. DT's typical schedule of 5-6 shows a week combined with the length of the shows and difficulty of the repertoire (thought these two have been somewhat reduced lately) is bound to be a voice killer.

And I understand they are in a tough spot here since to make tours work for them financially, more shows in a shorter time-frame might be necessary. Being a lot smaller band than, say, Iron Maiden, they may not be able to afford such generous spacing while still making touring financially worthwhile. I also assume that in their age, they don't want to be on the road and away from their families too long. Giving James more time to rest his voice would certainly entail some compromises that might be tough to accept for the band.

This is why I think it's important for them to play more instrumental stuff during their shows - like the Instrumedley.   I have never been a big fan of instrumentals - Except with DT.  I am not a prog guy in general.  DT is as prog as I get  I've been a fan since almost day 1.  They could lighten James's load by playing at least 20 minutes of instrumental stuff each night.

[Tony From Long Island]

There is bound to be some biological change, but as crystalstars points out, many trained singers age gracefully though they do not sound *exactly* same as they did years ago.

Hmm, the only singer I can think of immediately who at his current age (70's) sounds similar to his prime is Dennis DeYoung.

Some singers are just blessed with good genes.  Much of it is luck.