Songs for Next Tour / What Can James Sing?

[cramx3]

DT was incredibly successful in the public eye with MM.

Ticket sales would suggest otherwise. Their commercial peak was the start of the RR era, and since MP left it's been steadily declining.

I was talking about the Grammy win and three overall nominations.

I guess there's a few metrics one could use to gauge success.  I personally find it hard to use the Grammys as one, but hard to also just completely shake it off.  It's not meaningless even if they had no business (IMO) winning that, but I feel the same way with Metallica this year getting the metal performance grammy.  It was not worthy song and felt more like an achievement award than the song nominated actually being a great song.  (I will say, The Alien is MUCH better than 72 Seasons).

Anyway, one metric could also be album charting positions.

BC&SL is DT's best charting album at #6 and they have charted basically worse each release since then including #52 for AVFTTOTW which would be the worse since ToT.

Another and maybe the most important, IMO, would be ticket sales and attendance.  That has been very hit or miss since TA tour.  Seems the first legs do well, the second legs do poor in the US.  However, they basically play the same spots they have since the SC era (basically since I started going to their shows) from what I can tell.  I do think, on average, attendance has gone down though.

So I actually would say DT have been on a downward stream since TA, but it hasn't been some complete failure.  A grammy, some very well attended tours (basically the tours where they did I&W and SFAM in full did really well), and they are still selling albums.  Still some posiitves here, but hard to ignore some of those really bad tours.

[NoFred]

I think people talking about the band mitigating James's vocal issues via song choice are really missing the point. The fact that he can't really sing the way he did 20 years ago is nothing new, and something the band have managed around.

The problem now is that he cannot sing the way that he sang in the studio. The range thing is what it is, but not being able to hit stuff right in his pocket was the far more alarming thing for me.

I’m not sure on this one yet, he’s done new material just fine last couple of tours. So I’m assuming new studio material will be sung to tape in a way that’s repeatable (repeatable in the live sense so not one for one) on the next tour.

Older studio material? No way of course, but I don’t mind cause that’s what I’m paying to see, the band as they are now playing the hits as I remember them. That’s the bargain I guess.

[The Realm]

Mike,

DT was incredibly successful in the public eye with MM. Even MORE successful than they were with MP, in terms of public notoriety. I fully expect the three tunes I named being rotated throughout their sets for the rest of their career. And that's not a big deal for me, personally. Good songs, great success.

Tim -- I think it is very likely that we'll get more MM material than you think, primarily because of the song half of the original post title: "What can James sing?" Well, while he's had his struggles, he's obviously going to be more comfortable singing stuff from the recent albums over say...Take the Time, or Learning to Live.

Anyway, interesting speculation. Excited to find out.

Respect the opinion and of course it is all speculation but my money is on no MM songs on tour or one at most. I just don't see why they would, or why it would be necessary. They will play lots of the new album and a few classic songs from MP albums, tons of material to choose from.

As far as the band being more successful with MM, also have to disagree and not sure how you measure this. I would measure it in terms of live performance and to me DT were an absolute bore the few times I saw them live with MM. Mike's Shattered Fortress tour blew them away. I fully expect the crowds to turn up in larger numbers with MP back and the live shows to be much more engaging and filled with energy.

[efx]

Setting aside anectodal stories and my own feelings on what I like I think the likelyhood of them playing MM material is much greater than them not doing it for a couple of reasons.

DT to me has never seemed like a pure legacy band, sure the anniversary tours have happened but that has always been coupled with regular sets of whatever material they want to play IIRC.
They don't strike me as people who only wants to play what the fans want to hear and that goes back to day 1 for me.

And regardless of what one might think of the last few albums it's obvious they weren't unhappy with MM or the music they made with him to the point that they would simply exclude it even if MP is back.

[gborland]

Ticket sales would suggest otherwise. Their commercial peak was the start of the RR era, and since MP left it's been steadily declining.

Dream Theater is a private entity, so how do you know when the 'commercial peak' was?

Chart positions, and looking at the (increasing) number of empty seats at their shows over the last couple of decades. They have tried to mitigate the financial effect of declining attendances by ramping up the ticket prices... which then makes the attendances even worse. 

Winning a grammy is no indication whatsoever of commercial success.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Ticket sales would suggest otherwise. Their commercial peak was the start of the RR era, and since MP left it's been steadily declining.

Dream Theater is a private entity, so how do you know when the 'commercial peak' was?

Chart positions, and looking at the (increasing) number of empty seats at their shows over the last couple of decades. They have tried to mitigate the financial effect of declining attendances by ramping up the ticket prices... which then makes the attendances even worse. 

Winning a grammy is no indication whatsoever of commercial success.

Understood.

The posts here on empty seats in the DreamSonic tour influenced my view on general attendance at the time and I think it speaks volumes that there was no DVD for the View tour. If you are correct that the commercial peak was the last MP album and that sales are going down each year after, that would add even more weight to my opinion that the business side of things had a big role to play in deciding to bring MP back (along with friendship of course). We can see that the news has been a shot of adrenaline for the fan base.

Disclaimer: I have not seen DT's financial statements so I don't know if you are right. I am just saying if you were right...

[gzarruk]

Anyway, one metric could also be album charting positions.

BC&SL is DT's best charting album at #6 and they have charted basically worse each release since then including #52 for AVFTTOTW which would be the worse since ToT.

Not that it matters too much to the overall discussion anyway, but IIRC there was a change during the 2010s where they started including streaming services and number of streams to the equation for the chart positions instead of just album "sales". That's why the gap grew a lot more between the most mainstream artists and bands like DT for this particular example.

I don't have any links or sources available right now (could look it up later) but I remember it being talked about here a few years ago.

[Animal]

I believe there are couple of songs that James can sing reliably well, but if we don't want a setlist that starts with Space Dye Vest, continues with Wait for Sleep and goes on with in a like manner for another two hours, we'd better hope he'll find a way around his issues. Otherwise, MP's return would be kind of pointless as you really don't need a drummer for this type of low-key ballads.

I wonder how he still manages to make it work so well in a studio though. I know, the studio magic and all, but his recorded voice does not sound heavily processed the way a lot of mainstream pop-singers do. There still must be some real substance behind this voice, which makes me a bit hopeful that he still has got it, and better coaching/vocal stamina and repertoire management will do the trick. While I believe he is working on that, I agree with Mora: He might get stuck in a vicious circle of doing more of the same thing that used to help him before, without realizing that no matter how well something worked in the past, a complete re-evaluation of an approach is necessary.

[nikatapi]

Another interesting metric with regards to concert attendance would be the average price of a ticket throughout the years

[WilliamMunny]

re: James - I think JLB is well aware of all his vocal limitations. While I don't know the man, I am sure he's taking steps to identify where his problem areas are, and working to maximize what he can bring to the table. What that translates to, in terms of song choice from the back catalog, will be what it is.

Like it or not, MP's return signals the end is coming. Whether that's after the next record and tour cycle, or in 10 years, the end is nigh. They'll play what they want to play, and JLB will have to navigate it. That's his job. My guess is, he's going to spend a lot of time not only working on his voice, but modifying everything to fit his voice. He's admitted he can't sing like he once did. That took guts, and I applaud him for it. Now, he'll change what he can, and when he goes for certain high spots, he'll do it when it feels right.

I look at this very much like how Ray Alder make a conscious decision to flatten out or take out most of the high notes in all Fates Warning's stuff. He did it in a masterful way, where it still sounds wonderful. He obviously took a good hard look at all the songs he was going to sing live, and figured out how he could still sing them in a beautiful manner. I expect JLB, now that he's admitted he can't sing like he used to, to do the same.

All that said, what I HOPE for, on the next tour:

1. A 10-minute medley of stuff from the first album, as a tribute to Charlie.
2. Three tunes from Mangini's era to pay respect to their success with him: The Alien, On the Backs of Angels, The Enemy Inside (all either a Grammy win, or Grammy-nominated)
3. Two new songs
4. Two from I&W (PMU/Metropolis)
5. Two from SFAM (25 years)
6. Two from ToT (20 years)

>>>To me, that would be a beautiful reunion show with MP, an acknowledgement of their past, a tribute to a fallen comrade, a celebration of victories, and a pointed look toward the future.

Someone text this to James: this is the way

[Madman Shepherd]

DT was incredibly successful in the public eye with MM.

Ticket sales would suggest otherwise. Their commercial peak was the start of the RR era, and since MP left it's been steadily declining.

I was talking about the Grammy win and three overall nominations.

 

Anyway, one metric could also be album charting positions.

BC&SL is DT's best charting album at #6 and they have charted basically worse each release since then including #52 for AVFTTOTW which would be the worse since ToT.

BC&SL -#6
ADTOE - #8
DT12 - #7

I believe after that they changed the metrics for charts to include streams. Since DT fans have always been big on physical media, their chart positions went up. After including streams they tanked.

If they charted the way they used to, according to Billboard, by album sales DoT would be at 5 and TA and AVFTTOTW would be 6.

[wasteland]

I wonder how he still manages to make it work so well in a studio though. I know, the studio magic and all, but his recorded voice does not sound heavily processed the way a lot of mainstream pop-singers do. There still must be some real substance behind this voice, which makes me a bit hopeful that he still has got it, and better coaching/vocal stamina and repertoire management will do the trick. While I believe he is working on that, I agree with Mora: He might get stuck in a vicious circle of doing more of the same thing that used to help him before, without realizing that no matter how well something worked in the past, a complete re-evaluation of an approach is necessary.

He is definitely able to access nearly his entire range of old in a carefully controlled and comfortable setting, such as the studio or his recent cameo videos where he sang the infamous "Apathetic Displays" verse of Innocence Faded.. The tour environment and packed schedule is very much NOT one such environment.

[Mebert78]

Best setlist for JLB:

Ytse Jam
Eve
Erotomania
Hell’s Kitchen
Overture 1928
The Dance Of Eternity
Overture (Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence)
Stream of Consciousness
False Awakening Suite
Enigma Machine
Dystopian Overture

[TheCountOfNYC]

Best setlist for JLB:

Ytse Jam
Eve
Erotomania
Hell’s Kitchen
Overture 1928
The Dance Of Eternity
Overture (Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence)
Stream of Consciousness
False Awakening Suite
Enigma Machine
Dystopian Overture

That’s harsh. Also you’re missing Raw Dog.

[cramx3]

Honestly, give me Raw Dog! The last MP song with DT should be how they open the show (not serious, but maybe kind of?  )

[DTwwbwMP]

Honestly, give me Raw Dog! The last MP song with DT.....

I'd love to see it!

[Herrick]

Eh, they should figure out what works for them. No instrumentals live (enough of these are embedded in most songs anyway)

I want my DT and I want it raw. Down tune as needed, otherwise let’s go.

I think it's fair to include a couple instrumentals to give JL some extra breathing room. That's what Rush did.

But I agree that DT live should be raw - no backing tapes, etc. other than the intros that they've always used. Besides tuning down for some songs, also working out great alternate vocal melodies will go a long way to help JL as well. I think I posted about it here already, but I can't help but think of how Rush did Circumstances in 2007. That was a song I never expected to hear live being that the vocals were in the stratosphere, but by down tuning and altering the vocal melodies, they pulled it off! I'm sure DT can do the same with some of the more vocally challenging songs that they want to include in the set.

I've never been a fan of tuning down any more than a half step.  I don't have perfect pitch, but close enough so that changing a key makes it sound like a completely different song to me.

I'm ok with a band does it with their own songs (though I prefer they don't) but I absolutely hate it when a cover band does it.  There are a zillion songs to choose. Choose one you can sing.

I'm not a fan of downtuning either. I'd much rather LaBrie come up with melodies he can comfortably sing and completely eliminate or severely limit any improv because it sounds like he's just winging it most of the time.

[RaiseTheKnife]

Honestly, give me Raw Dog! The last MP song with DT should be how they open the show (not serious, but maybe kind of?  )

Since  announcement of MPs return, I've been blasting Raw Dog.  Can perform some good cardio with it, too.

[Kocak]

Honestly, give me Raw Dog! The last MP song with DT should be how they open the show (not serious, but maybe kind of?  )

Came to write this as well. I think they should start with Raw Dog: "Now, where were we?" kind of opening.

[TAC]

Honestly, give me Raw Dog! The last MP song with DT should be how they open the show (not serious, but maybe kind of?  )

Came to write this as well. I think they should start with Raw Dog: "Now, where were we?" kind of opening.

Start the new album on the same note that Raw Dog ended on..

[MirrorMask]

You guys are severly overestimating the number of DT fans that even know that Raw Dog is a thing.

[cramx3]

You guys are severly overestimating the number of DT fans that even know that Raw Dog is a thing.

Oh of course  it would be a big "WTF?" but I honestly think I'd enjoy it.

[gzarruk]

I never got all the hate for that one, it's not bad at all! I think they should play it at some point (and TBOT, mainly for THAT solo).

[Samsara]

When a group is nominated three times for a Grammy Award, and wins one of them, the mainstream public is way more aware of a band. I'm not saying that they weren't popular among the dialed in prog metal fans prior to MM joining. Obviously, Dream Theater was hugely popular in the 90s, and got progressively more successful through the point MP left. All I was pointing out was that the mainstream public are probably more aware of DT because of the Grammy nominations (all of which came during MM's era).

Perhaps I didn't explain myself fully. Sorry.

[Herrick]

When a group is nominated three times for a Grammy Award, and wins one of them, the mainstream public is way more aware of a band. I'm not saying that they weren't popular among the dialed in prog metal fans prior to MM joining. Obviously, Dream Theater was hugely popular in the 90s, and got progressively more successful through the point MP left. All I was pointing out was that the mainstream public are probably more aware of DT because of the Grammy nominations (all of which came during MM's era).

Perhaps I didn't explain myself fully. Sorry.

Wasn't that not even televised though?

[Madman Shepherd]

When a group is nominated three times for a Grammy Award, and wins one of them, the mainstream public is way more aware of a band. I'm not saying that they weren't popular among the dialed in prog metal fans prior to MM joining. Obviously, Dream Theater was hugely popular in the 90s, and got progressively more successful through the point MP left. All I was pointing out was that the mainstream public are probably more aware of DT because of the Grammy nominations (all of which came during MM's era).

Perhaps I didn't explain myself fully. Sorry.

Wasn't that not even televised though?

I don't believe the main show but there was a way to watch the preshow awards for anybody that a Grammystan.

Just getting to use the terms "Grammy nominated" and "grammy winner" sure gave them a boost and no doubt caused more people to take notice even if they didn't see them win that night.

[Lonk]

When a group is nominated three times for a Grammy Award, and wins one of them, the mainstream public is way more aware of a band. I'm not saying that they weren't popular among the dialed in prog metal fans prior to MM joining. Obviously, Dream Theater was hugely popular in the 90s, and got progressively more successful through the point MP left. All I was pointing out was that the mainstream public are probably more aware of DT because of the Grammy nominations (all of which came during MM's era).

Perhaps I didn't explain myself fully. Sorry.

Wasn't that not even televised though?

I don't believe the main show but there was a way to watch the preshow awards for anybody that a Grammystan.

Just getting to use the terms "Grammy nominated" and "grammy winner" sure gave them a boost and no doubt caused more people to take notice even if they didn't see them win that night.

the Grammy preshow awards feels like a high school talent show giving awards to grown ups.

I saw it live because I wanted to see if DT was going to win, and I remember that they didn't even use the DT song that won the award when JP was walking to the stage  in fact, they didn't even use it when they were announcing the nominees lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QziielUsiO4

[pg1067]

the Grammy preshow awards feels like a high school talent show giving awards to grown ups.

I saw it live because I wanted to see if DT was going to win, and I remember that they didn't even use the DT song that won the award when JP was walking to the stage  in fact, they didn't even use it when they were announcing the nominees lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QziielUsiO4

Probably because the house band couldn't play it (it wasn't even a DT song at all, was it?).

The collective reaction of the crowd:  who is this guy?  I was impressed at how he kept going after his joke fell flat.  Yikes, that was awkward.

[Madman Shepherd]

When a group is nominated three times for a Grammy Award, and wins one of them, the mainstream public is way more aware of a band. I'm not saying that they weren't popular among the dialed in prog metal fans prior to MM joining. Obviously, Dream Theater was hugely popular in the 90s, and got progressively more successful through the point MP left. All I was pointing out was that the mainstream public are probably more aware of DT because of the Grammy nominations (all of which came during MM's era).

Perhaps I didn't explain myself fully. Sorry.

Wasn't that not even televised though?

I don't believe the main show but there was a way to watch the preshow awards for anybody that a Grammystan.

Just getting to use the terms "Grammy nominated" and "grammy winner" sure gave them a boost and no doubt caused more people to take notice even if they didn't see them win that night.

the Grammy preshow awards feels like a high school talent show giving awards to grown ups.

I saw it live because I wanted to see if DT was going to win, and I remember that they didn't even use the DT song that won the award when JP was walking to the stage  in fact, they didn't even use it when they were announcing the nominees lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QziielUsiO4

Yeah. One of the many reasons I think awards shows in general are kind of dumb. I mean, I think it's cool DT won a grammy but in the same way I think it's cool they get any award. It's more recognition. Honestly some random town in Romania could name them the band of the month and give them a sash to wear and it would honestly be on par with coolness for getting a Grammy statue but the Grammy would get more notice.

[Madman Shepherd]

the Grammy preshow awards feels like a high school talent show giving awards to grown ups.

I saw it live because I wanted to see if DT was going to win, and I remember that they didn't even use the DT song that won the award when JP was walking to the stage  in fact, they didn't even use it when they were announcing the nominees lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QziielUsiO4

Probably because the house band couldn't play it (it wasn't even a DT song at all, was it?).

The collective reaction of the crowd:  who is this guy?  I was impressed at how he kept going after his joke fell flat.  Yikes, that was awkward.

I didn't think it fell flat. After all, the audience he was really trying to reach was people like us.

I don't think many people get a much bigger reaction for the early show though.

[Lonk]

the Grammy preshow awards feels like a high school talent show giving awards to grown ups.

I saw it live because I wanted to see if DT was going to win, and I remember that they didn't even use the DT song that won the award when JP was walking to the stage  in fact, they didn't even use it when they were announcing the nominees lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QziielUsiO4

Probably because the house band couldn't play it (it wasn't even a DT song at all, was it?).

The collective reaction of the crowd:  who is this guy?  I was impressed at how he kept going after his joke fell flat.  Yikes, that was awkward.

I didn't think it fell flat. After all, the audience he was really trying to reach was people like us.

I don't think many people get a much bigger reaction for the early show though.

You can heard the 3 people in the crowd that got the joke lol

But PG, it was some generic "metal sounding" track that the house band was playing. But they could've use the recording, just like they do for the actual show.

[bosk1]

With all apologies to the three Raw Dog cheerleaders in the world, there is practically zero chance of that happening.  And I think we all know that.  But that being said...

...I wouldn't at all mind it being on tape either as their pre-intro tape or during intermission (if they have one).  That would actually be kinda cool without detracting from the show if they played it and 2 people per show in the audience (being generous) recognizing it.

[Madman Shepherd]

Actually, and I'm totally being serious here, I think Raw Dog would be the perfect song to start their first show back with. They love the whole full circle thing, it's the last thing they ever wrote together, and it's not a bad song at all.

[hefdaddy42]

Out of respect for people that like Raw Dog, just this once I am going to just keep my damn mouth shut. 

[Stadler]

When a group is nominated three times for a Grammy Award, and wins one of them, the mainstream public is way more aware of a band. I'm not saying that they weren't popular among the dialed in prog metal fans prior to MM joining. Obviously, Dream Theater was hugely popular in the 90s, and got progressively more successful through the point MP left. All I was pointing out was that the mainstream public are probably more aware of DT because of the Grammy nominations (all of which came during MM's era).

Perhaps I didn't explain myself fully. Sorry.

Wasn't that not even televised though?

I don't believe the main show but there was a way to watch the preshow awards for anybody that a Grammystan.

Just getting to use the terms "Grammy nominated" and "grammy winner" sure gave them a boost and no doubt caused more people to take notice even if they didn't see them win that night.

the Grammy preshow awards feels like a high school talent show giving awards to grown ups.

I saw it live because I wanted to see if DT was going to win, and I remember that they didn't even use the DT song that won the award when JP was walking to the stage  in fact, they didn't even use it when they were announcing the nominees lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QziielUsiO4

Yeah. One of the many reasons I think awards shows in general are kind of dumb. I mean, I think it's cool DT won a grammy but in the same way I think it's cool they get any award. It's more recognition. Honestly some random town in Romania could name them the band of the month and give them a sash to wear and it would honestly be on par with coolness for getting a Grammy statue but the Grammy would get more notice.

I think you're selling the Grammy's short.  Look, like it or not, agree with them or not, think they're Luddites or not, the "Grammy" is to music what the Oscar is to acting.   You get people introduced as "the Grammy winning..." artist, you don't get people introduced as "The Oradea-honored...." artist.  The EGOT's are a thing (Emmy, Grammy, Oscar and Tony winners). 

If I'm Petrucci, I am HONORED by that award, whether they give it to me on a huge stage at 9:30 in prime time, or in the back of a garage somewhere on a studio lot.  Whatever Eddie Trunk wants you to believe (because... "METAL!!"), the Grammy's mean something.