Mike Portnoy's DRUMEO video series

[MoraWintersoul]

But *personally* do I believe that if the band were absolutely crushing sales and that if the last 2 tours were off the charts popular and lots of fans weren't constantly calling for MP to come back that they would have still made the Decision? No, my opinion is I do not for one second think that.

I actually don't think so! Judging from what MP said, it really was an inevitability. JP is a sentimental guy as much as MP, and if the band was crushing it on all levels, he would have just seen it as a difficult decision between business and "family" and then gone for family. But overall to the relative state of the music industry I don't think DT were doing that poorly, any band at their point of seniority that can even have two legs of tour in the same market during one album cycle I consider to be crushing it, no matter how the second leg ends up selling, especially after the pandemic. Plus they did get the coveted Grammy.

I would've also love to really be inside James' head while all this was being pitched.

I smiled when MP said that within five minutes of their meeting they were all hugs and kisses Before all the troubles, there was previously such big love between them. I don't know if James is going to talk about how he felt when it was being pitched, but he did talk about how at the possibility of the meeting he had to decide to put that whole thing behind them, so the biggest part of the feelings that had to be worked through for MP's comeback was probably worked through then.

James' voice in my head is now going: "When John called me and asked how I would feel if Mike could come back to the band, I just thought, y'know, well, why not? It's been such a long time, and, uh, just, if there's going to be a change, bring it on! You know what I'm saying? I'm in such a good place with Mike, we text and call, and at some point I think, time heals all wounds" and it's going for another five minutes restating all these things in circles as he does sometimes

Truth is usually in between.

It is possible for one side to simply be wrong. 

Yup

[MirrorMask]

"Listening to Dream Theater last 13 years was emotional for me..."

Beautiful and I truly appreciate the open hearted Portnoy here, he seems to have learned so much in live.

Off; here we are though, another thread where the whole Magini-leaved-to-got fired spectrum conversation is re-opened... I wonder when this will leave the building, since both sides probably never will be confirmed from either the band or Mangini. Truth is usually in between.

I think we are probably stuck with the topic for a long time. The lack of information has left a void so it is very topical. There are still a bunch of 'whys' left unanswered.

I think what makes the topic go away is either a full account or a DT16 album that is so good it makes the Decision unquestionable...or just time.

It's like we're living a completely brand new situation here.

There have been at least 845 documented cases of original / classic band members returning to a band, with their replacement having to make way. This is just the 846th case.

[crystalstars17]

I used the word relative. It's not that he was actually mediocre, but isn't anyone when we're making a comparison to JR? In the same way you could say an engineering professor at MIT is not mediocre, until you compare them with Nikola Tesla.

Oh I know you did and I figured you’d use that argument. But looking at it in context, you said:

relative mediocrity for the extreme highest quality.

While I would certainly agree that JR is the utmost caliber musician, by no means is DS a chump by comparison. You might get that impression from what was played on FII and the SoA albums or simply from what others have said here. But he is a very skilled musician and of a very high caliber, too. As I said, the band would not have made him an official member of the band (mind you, only after touring with him for 4 months) had he not been pulling his weight. And it's quite possible DS would still be DT's keyboardist had JR not agreed to join the band.

For the record, I think your assessment of comparing DS vs. JR to an engineering professor at MIT vs. Tesla is fairly reasonable, but that would mean you're also calling an engineering professor at MIT “relatively mediocre” which IMO is a bit much.

Look, I'm not here to cause drama or make enemies. So my analogies aren't always perfect, and I acknowledge that I can't seem to get my own dumb foot out of my mouth on this one, so a little forgiveness please.

I realized that right now I am in the minority with my opinions and that I currently possess the uncool, unpopular, unacceptable opinion of having a preference for MM over MP and the MM era in general. But I'm not here to argue. So let's please just agree to disagree and not continue to carry this on.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

But *personally* do I believe that if the band were absolutely crushing sales and that if the last 2 tours were off the charts popular and lots of fans weren't constantly calling for MP to come back that they would have still made the Decision? No, my opinion is I do not for one second think that.

I actually don't think so! Judging from what MP said, it really was an inevitability. JP is a sentimental guy as much as MP, and if the band was crushing it on all levels, he would have just seen it as a difficult decision between business and "family" and then gone for family. But overall to the relative state of the music industry I don't think DT were doing that poorly, any band at their point of seniority that can even have two legs of tour in the same market during one album cycle I consider to be crushing it, no matter how the second leg ends up selling, especially after the pandemic. Plus they did get the coveted Grammy.

I don't think it was inevitable. I think the band was fully committed to MM when they hired him. When MP was playing on JP's solo album tour there was an interview in which JP was asked about any implications for DT this might have. JP was very clear that we should not draw any conclusions about that arrangement. Obviously things did change over time but there was no pre-determined destiny to this. What changed exactly? We don't really know the full picture.

Mike Portnoy himself did not think this was inevitable. In that interview he says that a few years ago he wouldn't have bet on a reunion. Maybe now after things worked out the way he wanted he feels it was bound to turn out that way but clearly that was not his view all along.

[geeeemo]

I keep wondering if the dynamic of the tour with JP and the wives played a role. Thats a lot of togetherness with the "families". We women do like to talk, and more talk, means more ideas.

[TAC]

I keep wondering if the dynamic of the tour with JP and the wives played a role. Thats a lot of togetherness with the "families". We women do like to talk, and more talk, means more ideas.

Right, and also JM’s wife too. Not sure if JM was traveling with them or not. The Myungs and Portnoys are neighbors right? MP doesn’t typically mention JM out of respect for his privacy, but I believe those families are pretty tight too.

[Setlist Scotty]

I used the word relative. It's not that he was actually mediocre, but isn't anyone when we're making a comparison to JR? In the same way you could say an engineering professor at MIT is not mediocre, until you compare them with Nikola Tesla.

Oh I know you did and I figured you’d use that argument. But looking at it in context, you said:

relative mediocrity for the extreme highest quality.

While I would certainly agree that JR is the utmost caliber musician, by no means is DS a chump by comparison. You might get that impression from what was played on FII and the SoA albums or simply from what others have said here. But he is a very skilled musician and of a very high caliber, too. As I said, the band would not have made him an official member of the band (mind you, only after touring with him for 4 months) had he not been pulling his weight. And it's quite possible DS would still be DT's keyboardist had JR not agreed to join the band.

For the record, I think your assessment of comparing DS vs. JR to an engineering professor at MIT vs. Tesla is fairly reasonable, but that would mean you're also calling an engineering professor at MIT “relatively mediocre” which IMO is a bit much.

Look, I'm not here to cause drama or make enemies. So my analogies aren't always perfect, and I acknowledge that I can't seem to get my own dumb foot out of my mouth on this one, so a little forgiveness please.

While you might think otherwise, I'm not trying to stir things up or cause trouble with you or anything. I simply am trying to show that this is not the first time this has happened and that we don't know all the factors in what lead to the decision being made this time around. That's all.
 
 

I realized that right now I am in the minority with my opinions and that I currently possess the uncool, unpopular, unacceptable opinion of having a preference for MM over MP and the MM era in general. But I'm not here to argue. So let's please just agree to disagree and not continue to carry this on.

I'm perfectly fine with you preferring the MM-era over the MP-era, just as I'm fine with people in general lambasting WDaDU even though it happens to be one of my favorite DT albums. I was simply trying to help you see things from another point of view when you expressed your strong disappointment. Not saying I'm trying to convince you that you're wrong because it's all a matter of preference. But being a discussion group, getting different perspectives on things can adjust one's thinking. It's happened to me in various ways, and I'd imagine it's happened to you, too. So this is no different. Nonetheless, you're entitled to your opinion and I respect that. Just maybe consider that this change in drummers is not as bad as you're prone to think right now.

[devieira73]

I don't know if someone already commented here, but MP lost the opportunity, when they are talking about the Awake Tour book signed by Jordan, to say that Jordan actually had played on that tour, only in the very first show!

Oh man, I was begging for him to mention that haha

Well, to be honest, while it could be considered part of the Awake album/tour cycle, the show JR played was not part of the Waking Up the World Tour. It was a pre-tour industry only warm-up gig. 
 
 

You're right, no doubt! I just missed MP's commenting about that. In fact, I think he would pointed out the fact precisely like you did, with all those nuances. Well, I guess he's still going back in shape in terms of DT oriented interviews.

[HOF]

I did think it was kind of funny that JR signed those tour books. That would certainly be a unique piece of DT memorabilia!

[Kram]

I keep wondering if the dynamic of the tour with JP and the wives played a role. Thats a lot of togetherness with the "families". We women do like to talk, and more talk, means more ideas.

I thought about this as well and I'd bet it absolutely played a role in this.

[HOF]

Mike didn't mention this, but I have to think the internal deliberations within DT were also spurred by the upcoming 40th anniversary in 2025. They knew they were going into the studio to begin 2024, so if you are gonna make the move better to make it in advance of the next album so you can get it out ahead of the anniversary, maybe do a short tour in late 2024/early 2025, and then do a full anniversary tour in like the summer of 2025. Just given where they are in life, the rekindled friendships, etc., I think that aspect of "the time is now" kind of forced the issue.

[RaiseTheKnife]

I found it surprising that MP said he would rather not have to write any lyrics on upcoming tracks.

[efx]

I found it surprising that MP said he would rather not have to write any lyrics on upcoming tracks.

I remember an interview with him that I think was around the time of the split where he alluded to feeling done writing lyrics after having finished the the 12 step suite as well as TBOT.

[Wim Kruithof]

Same... and slightly a shame since I love Portnoy's lyrics very much. They're emotional, vunerable and reach from love to hate, fear and wrath. But I will be so curious what they would be, now he self said to have let that all go and found peace in life.

[geeeemo]

I wonder if that attitude will change when he is in the moment. With DT, making music! I doubt he'll be void of ideas when the super adrenaline of making music together again is upon him. Maybe not to the extent as before. But still, MP usually has something to say.

[devieira73]

If I'm not mistaken, the only lyric that MP wrote after DT was the Winery Dogs song "You Saved Me", for Marlene and I think it was inspired by all her support through the tough times after DT split.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

If I'm not mistaken, the only lyric that MP wrote after DT was the Winery Dogs song "You Saved Me", for Marlene and I think it was inspired by all her support through the tough times after DT split.

^ great song with great lyrics

[ytserush]

What?

MP just said it. ...about Mangini...'It's not easy being replaced, I can't imagine, and he handled it so well..."

Are you still holding firm that he wasn't...scratch that...you're holding firm at "we don't know". That's fine.

I can't imagine Mike Portnoy wouldn't have a least an inkling of what it feels like to be "replaced."

[ytserush]

I can't speak for her but what I think Crystalstars meant to say was that MM did not to anything to deserve being removed from his position as drummer of DT (She can confirm or deny that I got her intention correctly). And maybe even that by all accounts he performed his drummer duties with the utmost care and concern and executed all of his responsibilities to the total satisfaction of the band.

I get the sense that a lot of people think the verb 'to fire' necessarily carries a negative connotation - i.e., a person was fired means a person was let go due to misconduct or being incompetent - and while it certainly can, it does not by definition convey this. Merriam Webster provides the following definition of this verb 'to fire': 'to dismiss from a position'. Dismiss is defined as 'to permit or cause (someone) to leave' or 'to remove from position or service.'

I do not believe anyone using this word is implying that the band moved on from MM due to anything negative he did or did not do. I certainly get that some people will automatically think that but ultimately we're probably all on the same page in understanding the basic mechanics of the Decision.

This has always seemed pretty obvious to me. Mike Mangini does not appear to have done anything wrong. I really feel bad for him.He certainly doesn't deserve it.  It was out of control but he seems to have the personality to handle it well. Doesn't really make it right, but it was handled in the best way something like this can be. Short of having two drummers (which I would have loved) there really isn't a good way to accomplish something like this. Unfortunately, once a decision like this is made there is really no other way.

[ytserush]

And I am SHOCKED that there is no business agreement in place, or the fact that they haven't even talked business and money. That's mind blowing.

You would think that with happened previously that this would be the first thing addressed. But if the circumstances seem to be as organic as everyone seems to indicate and they are doing this for the right reasons then maybe some faith is required here. But not knowing all of the details it seems kind of unbelievable to me that not even a basic framework of the dynamic was outlined. Maybe they are going to try this on the fly to see what is most comfortable for everyone. Everyone involved is older and wiser at this point and any potential acrimony just isn't there.

[ytserush]

I keep wondering if the dynamic of the tour with JP and the wives played a role. Thats a lot of togetherness with the "families". We women do like to talk, and more talk, means more ideas.

That certainly may have been the initial spark.

 I took John at his word that no conclusions should be drawn by him and Mike playing together again. That may have been a mistake.

[DreamerTV]

"Maronn' mia" (which stands for "my Virgin Mary" with a southern Italian accent) right after he finished Panic Attack really made me laugh loud!

Whatever happened, whatever all of us may have felt during these 13 years, this just feels right.

[crystalstars17]

While you might think otherwise, I'm not trying to stir things up or cause trouble with you or anything. I simply am trying to show that this is not the first time this has happened and that we don't know all the factors in what lead to the decision being made this time around. That's all.

👍

I'm perfectly fine with you preferring the MM-era over the MP-era, just as I'm fine with people in general lambasting WDaDU even though it happens to be one of my favorite DT albums.

I get it, with all the flack TA gets around here 😁

Aside, that said I find it interesting that we're coming from literally the opposite ends of the spectrum in this. I think it shows what an institution this band is, like Star Wars, lol, with a long history and a fandom with varying points of view from all across the decades. That's actually pretty cool.

I was simply trying to help you see things from another point of view when you expressed your strong disappointment. Not saying I'm trying to convince you that you're wrong because it's all a matter of preference. But being a discussion group, getting different perspectives on things can adjust one's thinking. It's happened to me in various ways, and I'd imagine it's happened to you, too. So this is no different.

Absolutely.

Nonetheless, you're entitled to your opinion and I respect that. Just maybe consider that this change in drummers is not as bad as you're prone to think right now.

Thank you, and likewise.

I'm sincerely trying. Admittedly I'm not a fan of change, and especially in the safe haven of music (where it happens all too often, apparently, as I know all too well from some of my other favorite bands), and much less in DT which for reasons stated above I thought was such a pillar of established perpetuity that it could never happen with them. So seeing the whole "fired" speculation come back, coupled with the fact that I'm going through a lot irl right now and as a result having less clarity and a shorter fuse, was just a perfect storm. I apologize for being so volatile.

[crystalstars17]

This has always seemed pretty obvious to me. Mike Mangini does not appear to have done anything wrong. I really feel bad for him.He certainly doesn't deserve it.  It was out of control but he seems to have the personality to handle it well. Doesn't really make it right, but it was handled in the best way something like this can be. Short of having two drummers (which I would have loved) there really isn't a good way to accomplish something like this. Unfortunately, once a decision like this is made there is really no other way.

I love this post and agree with everything you said. And the two drummers idea would've been epic!!! Now why didn't they think of that?! It's how Helloween got two singers and Iron Maiden got three guitarists, so it's not like it's unprecedented. I wonder if something like this still can't happen, even for just one album or one special tour.

[MirrorMask]

Singers alternate between a song and the other. A third guitar adds layers for the sound. What having two drummers accomplish, beside the gimmick of seeing it, and clogging up the stage with two drumkits? I may be musically ignorant about this but two drummers for the same song is redundant, and each of them drumming a part of the set while the other takes a break feels weird. I mean, it COULD happen - Mangini's drum empty while Portnoy plays one of his songs and then Portnoy goes to take a break leaving his drumstool empty while Mangini performs on one of his songs, but it's a weird idea to me.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I think the real question pertaining to the use of both drummers is whether JP is going to invite Mangini to do his guitar camps or any other tours (solo, G3, should they happen again). Or is it the case that any time JP needs a drummer it is going to be MP.

DT with more than 1 wouldn't serve much purpose for the band. It serves Dream Theater no benefit except to make me, Crystalstars and like 3 other people happy. Everyone sees the reaction upon learning MP is back. Keeping Mangini does nothing except create extra work for the band and probably piss of Mike Portnoy. When Guns N Roses reunited with Slash they weren't like 'let's keep Bumblefoot just because we want to do right by him.' No, people want Guns N Roses with Slash and they want DT with Mike Portnoy. Full time or nothing.

[efx]

Several drummers at the same time worked for King Crimson, especially live but that music is very different from DT and was rearranged to work with whatever lineup they were rolling with at the time.

But not only is the music vastly different but I don't see how having them both wouldn't put MM in a pretty uneviable spot.

[Wim Kruithof]

crystalstars, I have a lot of respect for your reaction on Scotty. Been on this forum for a couple of years now and it really stands out to other forums, due to the respect to one another. Maybe that's because our love for Dream Theater is so much bigger than the difference of our opinions...

[MoraWintersoul]

Whatever happened, whatever all of us may have felt during these 13 years, this just feels right.

I'll be the first to say I've wrote a lot of bitter lines on MP just on this forum alone, but I guess that was just the child of divorce in me

[Setlist Scotty]

I'm perfectly fine with you preferring the MM-era over the MP-era, just as I'm fine with people in general lambasting WDaDU even though it happens to be one of my favorite DT albums.

I get it, with all the flack TA gets around here 😁

Aside, that said I find it interesting that we're coming from literally the opposite ends of the spectrum in this. I think it shows what an institution this band is, like Star Wars, lol, with a long history and a fandom with varying points of view from all across the decades. That's actually pretty cool.

Totally agree with you. It's interesting to also read the perspectives of all the fans who have discovered the band between the Charlie and Mangini eras, too. It adds more to the experience for sure.   
 
 

Nonetheless, you're entitled to your opinion and I respect that. Just maybe consider that this change in drummers is not as bad as you're prone to think right now.

Thank you, and likewise.

I'm sincerely trying. Admittedly I'm not a fan of change, and especially in the safe haven of music (where it happens all too often, apparently, as I know all too well from some of my other favorite bands), and much less in DT which for reasons stated above I thought was such a pillar of established perpetuity that it could never happen with them. So seeing the whole "fired" speculation come back, coupled with the fact that I'm going through a lot irl right now and as a result having less clarity and a shorter fuse, was just a perfect storm. I apologize for being so volatile.

Again, I completely understand. When MP first announced he split from the band, it really sent a big portion of the fanbase into a tailspin, not the least me since I know MP personally and DT was and still continues to be my favorite band. So it definitely felt like (forgive the old marriage analogy that everybody hates now) us fans were the kids stuck in the middle of a divorce, being forced to choose which "parent" to side with.  So no worries - I get it.

And I'm sorry to hear that you've been going through some rough bits in your life - hope you're able to get them sorted out soon.

[DreamerTV]

Whatever happened, whatever all of us may have felt during these 13 years, this just feels right.

I'll be the first to say I've wrote a lot of bitter lines on MP just on this forum alone, but I guess that was just the child of divorce in me

I did it too, and in all fairness MP did more than something to draw a bit of acrimony...
But 13 years have passed, they and all of us went through a lot, especially since the pandemic, to learn once more how to put things into perspective.

[Madman Shepherd]

Whatever happened, whatever all of us may have felt during these 13 years, this just feels right.

I'll be the first to say I've wrote a lot of bitter lines on MP just on this forum alone, but I guess that was just the child of divorce in me

I did it too, and in all fairness MP did more than something to draw a bit of acrimony...
But 13 years have passed, they and all of us went through a lot, especially since the pandemic, to learn once more how to put things into perspective.

Lest you all forget, Portnoy brought a lot of that on himself. He has acted very different the last few years.

There were a few people on this forum that would say, "You'll just criticize Mike for anything he does!" They've been proven wrong because there is very little if anything to criticize Portnoy for lately. He's really acted with respect and tact that was severely lacking for the first 5-10 years after the split.

[ReaperKK]

I've always liked MP's drumming but after leaving DT he was really insufferable at times, which I get after leaving a band he was a part of for so long.

The past 5 years he has really changed and has seemed to really smooth out the rough edges.

[MirrorMask]

I agree with all the latest posts!

[crystalstars17]

crystalstars, I have a lot of respect for your reaction on Scotty. Been on this forum for a couple of years now and it really stands out to other forums, due to the respect to one another. Maybe that's because our love for Dream Theater is so much bigger than the difference of our opinions...

Thank you for that. I think you are right, the common thread here between fans is a lot stronger than any momentary disagreement. As I mentioned before, we're all just a disparate group of people from all walks of life who happen to have a passion in common, but with many different viewpoints. So there's bound to be some misunderstanding now and then, but thankfully it's short lived.

Again, I completely understand. When MP first announced he split from the band, it really sent a big portion of the fanbase into a tailspin, not the least me since I know MP personally and DT was and still continues to be my favorite band. So it definitely felt like (forgive the old marriage analogy that everybody hates now) us fans were the kids stuck in the middle of a divorce, being forced to choose which "parent" to side with.  So no worries - I get it.

Wow, you really do have a unique perspective. I can't imagine being both a fan and that close to the situation and how difficult that must've been. 

And I'm sorry to hear that you've been going through some rough bits in your life - hope you're able to get them sorted out soon.

Thanks. We've been going through diagnosis, major surgery, and soon cancer treatment with our beloved cat. It's been a most hectic and emotionally draining holiday season, to say the very least. I was all too happy to say farewell to 2023 and welcome the hope of a better year in 2024.