Mike Portnoy's DRUMEO video series

[crystalstars17]

Not like this hasn't happened before. The same thing happened when Derek was let go to make room for Jordan in 1999.

Well that's hardly comparable when you consider what they were giving up - relative mediocrity for the extreme highest quality.

This time they are giving up extreme highest quality for....popularity?

May seem a bit cold hearted that this was the way things were handled, but we don't know every detail that led to this decision, so while we can come to conclusions, it's best not to be too judgmental. Let's also not forget that whether we all want to admit it or not, DT *is* a business - while artistic, it is the way that they make money to support themselves and their families - so they may make decisions from a business point of view. Not saying that's exactly what this was, but it's possible.

With due respect, I understand how business decisions work and "judgemental" is a bit strong for just stating an opinion, don't you think?

Whether it was a business decision or not doesn't have any bearing upon whether I am obligated to agree with it or respect it. MM did nothing wrong to deserve "firing".

[crystalstars17]

But yeah, it is very hard for me to be excited about his coming back when I believe DT reached the best version of themselves in part because of the drummer he is replacing.

I could not have said this better.

I'll be supporting the next album unless they're planning on making the Astonishing Pt. 2, so I am open/eager/hoping I will soon experience the best era of DT and ultimately be proven wrong.

Hopefully we are indeed proven wrong.

[Stadler]

He was concerned about Mangini, hugely respected his reaction.

Just watching, and the way he talked about that, I think it's safe to say there's no way in the world this was a decision MM made. I know a few of us said so when this was announced but were shut down pretty much immediately. Not wanting to get in trouble here or anything, but if this video isn't proof of them letting MM go to get MP back, I don't know what is.

Other than that, pretty good video (so far)! Not going to lie, I'm still not too excited about having him back but it is what it is and I'm looking forward to them finally entering the studio early next year to start working on new stuff. A short pre-album tour wouldn't hurt either.

First, Scotty is 100% correct, and we DON'T yet know all the details. But we shouldn't change or adjust the narrative to justify a particular position: NO ONE, to my knowledge, ever argued that it was "a decision that MM made" on his own (and if they did, it was just as much speculation).  But that doesn't make the opposite - that he had no part in it whatsoever - true either, or any other variation for that matter.   

So much of the position seems informed by this simple admission: "Not going to lie, I'm still not too excited about having him back".

Not like this hasn't happened before. The same thing happened when Derek was let go to make room for Jordan in 1999.

Well that's hardly comparable when you consider what they were giving up - relative mediocrity for the extreme highest quality.

This time they are giving up extreme highest quality for....popularity?

With all due respect, that's an opinion, and while it's not completely unfounded, it's not shared with everyone.  I for one, think we traded one kind of quality for another, equal (and in my estimation, for my taste, more desirable) kind of quality.

Whether it was a business decision or not doesn't have any bearing upon whether I am obligated to agree with it or respect it. MM did nothing wrong to deserve "firing".

One, there is not a scrap of evidence that Mangini was fired, so there's that, and two, you DO have to respect it in the sense that it's not your (or mine) decision to make, and the six principals whose decision it IS to make seem fine with it on various levels.  Maybe "respect" isn't the right word, but the decision is done. 

[TAC]

 

[Stadler]

But yeah, it is very hard for me to be excited about his coming back when I believe DT reached the best version of themselves in part because of the drummer he is replacing.

I could not have said this better.

To both of you, for someone that has been on the boat since 1992, when Images and Words came out, you have no idea - sincerely - how thrilled I am that you guys hold that opinion.  It shows the on-going creative fire of this band that I love so much is still burning hot, and there's still fuel left in the gas tank.  That thrills me to no end; this is not "Yes" or "Kiss" for example.   

But... it's still an opinion.  While I like a lot of the material on the five albums in the Mangini era, none of the albums approach their best (for me, I&W, SFAM and O8) and on the recent song list, only two Mangini era songs made the top 25.  We are both entitled to those opinions, and neither of them - mine or yours - carry any weight in terms of the FACTS surrounding the decision made.

For example; I have no more information than you do, and I am loathe to speculate, but it is JUST as likely - based on the Portnoy interview - that this decision was driven by FAMILY as much as it was driven by "popularity" or any other variable, and that the entire band wanted this for any of a host of reasons.   

[Stadler]

What?

[TAC]

What?

MP just said it. ...about Mangini...'It's not easy being replaced, I can't imagine, and he handled it so well..."

Are you still holding firm that he wasn't...scratch that...you're holding firm at "we don't know". That's fine.

[EvantheMotel6Owmer]

Really happy to see confirmation that he's gonna do another monster-sized kit--I think everyone had a feeling, but it's nice to see it confirmed.

Also, if there's one aspect I'd like to see Portnoy control again, it would be the setlists.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I can't speak for her but what I think Crystalstars meant to say was that MM did not to anything to deserve being removed from his position as drummer of DT (She can confirm or deny that I got her intention correctly). And maybe even that by all accounts he performed his drummer duties with the utmost care and concern and executed all of his responsibilities to the total satisfaction of the band.

I get the sense that a lot of people think the verb 'to fire' necessarily carries a negative connotation - i.e., a person was fired means a person was let go due to misconduct or being incompetent - and while it certainly can, it does not by definition convey this. Merriam Webster provides the following definition of this verb 'to fire': 'to dismiss from a position'. Dismiss is defined as 'to permit or cause (someone) to leave' or 'to remove from position or service.'

I do not believe anyone using this word is implying that the band moved on from MM due to anything negative he did or did not do. I certainly get that some people will automatically think that but ultimately we're probably all on the same page in understanding the basic mechanics of the Decision.

[ReaperKK]

He was concerned about Mangini, hugely respected his reaction.

Just watching, and the way he talked about that, I think it's safe to say there's no way in the world this was a decision MM made. I know a few of us said so when this was announced but were shut down pretty much immediately. Not wanting to get in trouble here or anything, but if this video isn't proof of them letting MM go to get MP back, I don't know what is.

I think you're good as long as you don't say MM was fired

[Anxiety35]

The Drumeo vid was great. MP gave a little more insight into his return to DT. My big question is, who made the move? Did JP and JR approach MP and say, "We want you back in DT. Are you interested?" I have a sense that it went down that way.

Nevertheless, I enjoyed watching MP play those DT songs on the Drumeo. I wonder if 6:00 will be released on YouTube for us to watch?

[ReaperKK]

If I were to guess it probably happened organically, maybe JP goes to MP and says "man it'd be fun to do something with you and the rest of the guys", MP goes "yea I'd love to" and go from there

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

But yeah, it is very hard for me to be excited about his coming back when I believe DT reached the best version of themselves in part because of the drummer he is replacing.

I could not have said this better.

To both of you, for someone that has been on the boat since 1992, when Images and Words came out, you have no idea - sincerely - how thrilled I am that you guys hold that opinion.  It shows the on-going creative fire of this band that I love so much is still burning hot, and there's still fuel left in the gas tank.  That thrills me to no end; this is not "Yes" or "Kiss" for example.   

But... it's still an opinion.  While I like a lot of the material on the five albums in the Mangini era, none of the albums approach their best (for me, I&W, SFAM and O8) and on the recent song list, only two Mangini era songs made the top 25.  We are both entitled to those opinions, and neither of them - mine or yours - carry any weight in terms of the FACTS surrounding the decision made.

For example; I have no more information than you do, and I am loathe to speculate, but it is JUST as likely - based on the Portnoy interview - that this decision was driven by FAMILY as much as it was driven by "popularity" or any other variable, and that the entire band wanted this for any of a host of reasons.

Hey, I get I am in the small minority opinion on this one (favoring DT with MM). I am reminded of that with each DT comments section and thread I read. 

I take MP at his word that family and friendship directly fed into the Decision. I think what he said makes perfect sense and I have always thought of him as a straight shooter. But as you say in your prior post, we don't have all the details. And the reality is that we may never have the details. In particular, it is unlikely that we will EVER get all of the details especially *if* the business side of things came into play. But *personally* do I believe that if the band were absolutely crushing sales and that if the last 2 tours were off the charts popular and lots of fans weren't constantly calling for MP to come back that they would have still made the Decision? No, my opinion is I do not for one second think that.

[Polarbear]

That was a great watch!

MP seems to be very comfortable playing the DT material, even though he hasn't played those songs in a long time.

Letting Mangini go so that Portnoy can join back in, must have been a difficult decision. Mangini handled the gig very well, even if he was never accepted by a portion of the fanbase.

Ultimately, this change IMO is for the greater good of the band. I can say for myself, that I'm more excited about the future of the band, than I have been in a long time.

[Setlist Scotty]

Not like this hasn't happened before. The same thing happened when Derek was let go to make room for Jordan in 1999.

Well that's hardly comparable when you consider what they were giving up - relative mediocrity for the extreme highest quality.

This time they are giving up extreme highest quality for....popularity?

Wow. Who are you to say Derek is "relative mediocrity"? He's a great keyboardist in his own right as has been evident by his output since leaving DT. FII may be rightly criticized in comparison to the rest of their catalog, but it was hardly Derek's fault, even though he has often been a scapegoat for it. Besides, do you think they would've selected Derek to be their keyboardist if he was mediocre? Hardly. The reason why they decided to replace him with Jordan was because Jordan was their first choice to replace Kevin Moore, and after having worked together in LTE, really discovered the chemistry they had with him.
 
 

May seem a bit cold hearted that this was the way things were handled, but we don't know every detail that led to this decision, so while we can come to conclusions, it's best not to be too judgmental. Let's also not forget that whether we all want to admit it or not, DT *is* a business - while artistic, it is the way that they make money to support themselves and their families - so they may make decisions from a business point of view. Not saying that's exactly what this was, but it's possible.

With due respect, I understand how business decisions work and "judgemental" is a bit strong for just stating an opinion, don't you think?

Whether it was a business decision or not doesn't have any bearing upon whether I am obligated to agree with it or respect it. MM did nothing wrong to deserve "firing".

Well you strike me as being judgmental with your view of Derek, so....

But I agree that MM did not do anything wrong, other than the fact that he was not MP, much the same as Derek did nothing wrong, other than the fact that he was not JR. So the comparison is closer than you may care to admit.
 
 

What?

MP just said it. ...about Mangini...'It's not easy being replaced, I can't imagine, and he handled it so well..."

Are you still holding firm that he wasn't...scratch that...you're holding firm at "we don't know". That's fine.

Of course he was replaced. Duh!    But what Stads is pointing out is we don't know why the decision was made. Was it because they missed their chemistry with MP? Was it because they're nearing their 40th anniversary and wanted to have MP back in time for that celebration? Was it as Stads said because of the "family" connection? Was it strictly a business decision? No one knows why JP made the call. Only that it was made and MM was replaced by MP.
 
 

The Drumeo vid was great. MP gave a little more insight into his return to DT. My big question is, who made the move? Did JP and JR approach MP and say, "We want you back in DT. Are you interested?" I have a sense that it went down that way.

MP said at the Rock and Roll Fantasy Camp he was at that JP called him. So it appears the band approached him, and even his comments in the Drumeo video seem to confirm it.

[nobloodyname]

@TheBarstoolWarrior Certainly to British English speakers, 'being fired' carries a negative connotation. It would seem to be more accurate to describe Mangini as having been 'let go'. But we British are, of course, masters of the understatement

[Setlist Scotty]

@TheBarstoolWarrior Certainly to British English speakers, 'being fired' carries a negative connotation. It would seem to be more accurate to describe Mangini as having been 'let go'. But we British are, of course, masters of the understatement

I think it's fair to say that the same is true for American English speakers, too. 

[TAC]

What?

MP just said it. ...about Mangini...'It's not easy being replaced, I can't imagine, and he handled it so well..."

Are you still holding firm that he wasn't...scratch that...you're holding firm at "we don't know". That's fine.

Of course he was replaced. Duh!    But what Stads is pointing out is we don't know why the decision was made. Was it because they missed their chemistry with MP? Was it because they're nearing their 40th anniversary and wanted to have MP back in time for that celebration? Was it as Stads said because of the "family" connection? Was it strictly a business decision? No one knows why JP made the call. Only that it was made and MM was replaced by MP.
 

Well, Stads was fighting against "replaced" or "let go". I would also love to hear JP's thoughts on it, but the fact of the matter is that MM was let go, and Stads had been not willing to go that far.

If he's moved on that, great, but that wasn't clear that he did from his post today.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

@TheBarstoolWarrior Certainly to British English speakers, 'being fired' carries a negative connotation. It would seem to be more accurate to describe Mangini as having been 'let go'. But we British are, of course, masters of the understatement

I agree it can and often does. I only meant to say it doesn't always, thus I didn't think she meant to include the negativity it sometimes brings along. I think ultimately we are all on the same page as to the basic facts. Some do not even want to risk the chance someone will conclude something negative so they don't want to use the word fire. I get that and I will not use the word.

I had a very quick interaction with JP recently, but I came away with absolute conviction that there was nothing Mangini did wrong to cause the Decision.

[crystalstars17]

Maybe "respect" isn't the right word, but the decision is done.

Perhaps it's not, and of course I "respect their decision" as theirs in the context you indicate. I should have left it at "I don't have to agree with it". But my sincere hope is that they did right by MM, that's all.

We are both entitled to those opinions, and neither of them - mine or yours - carry any weight in terms of the FACTS surrounding the decision made.

And of course we'll never have those facts, which again is their right to choose but whatever actually happened, again I only hope that they did right by MM.

I can't speak for her but what I think Crystalstars meant to say was that MM did not to anything to deserve being removed from his position as drummer of DT (She can confirm or deny that I got her intention correctly). And maybe even that by all accounts he performed his drummer duties with the utmost care and concern and executed all of his responsibilities to the total satisfaction of the band.

That's correct.

[TAC]

MP leaves out in that video his relationship with JM, probably purposely. He's made mention of them being together at times, but since JM isn't a social media guy, MP respects that.

I'd love to hear JM's thoughts, and I would've also love to really be inside James' head while all this was being pitched.


And I am SHOCKED that there is no business agreement in place, or the fact that they haven't even talked business and money. That's mind blowing.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

MP leaves out in that video his relationship with JM, probably purposely. He's made mention of them being together at times, but since JM isn't a social media guy, MP respects that.

I'd love to hear JM's thoughts, and I would've also love to really be inside James' head while all this was being pitched.


And I am SHOCKED that there is no business agreement in place, or the fact that they haven't even talked business and money. That's mind blowing.

Agreed. I caught that and nearly spit my tea out. 

[Schurftkut]

could be to show MP is willing to work as a hired gun?

[Setlist Scotty]

could be to show MP is willing to work as a hired gun?

Pretty sure he wouldn't come back just as a hired gun.

[EvantheMotel6Owmer]

could be to show MP is willing to work as a hired gun?

No way in hell he doesn't at least have some creative control. Just won't be like the old days where he controls every aspect.

[bosk1]

Just watching, and the way he talked about that, I think it's safe to say there's no way in the world this was a decision MM made. I know a few of us said so when this was announced but were shut down pretty much immediately. Not wanting to get in trouble here or anything, but if this video isn't proof of them letting MM go to get MP back, I don't know what is.

Well, no, that's not accurate.  What was shut down was people saying that he was "fired."  Otherwise, speculation (provided that it was couched as speculation and not as fact) was and is perfectly fine, and nobody is being "shut down" for that.

But if you want a barometer for what I think is the healthiest take on the situation from the information that has been put out there, look no further than what Stadler and Scotty have posted, because they have it exactly right.

And I am SHOCKED that there is no business agreement in place, or the fact that they haven't even talked business and money. That's mind blowing.

I'm not overly surprised.  These things take longer than you would think and don't happen the way you might think.  And given the long and positive relationship these guys all have, I don't think they view it as "urgent" as much as they might view it along the lines of "let's take our time and get it right when it's time to address that side of things."

With due respect, I understand how business decisions work and "judgemental" is a bit strong for just stating an opinion, don't you think?

Well, as an observer to the conversation, you are coming across as very judgmental.  There are ways to state and opinion strongly and there are ways to state it that cross over into confrontational, judgmental, etc.  As I and the other mods have often said here through the years, it's not necessarily what you say, but how you say it.

[bosk1]

I believe DT reached the best version of themselves in part because of the drummer he is replacing.

Wanted to come back to this because it's an interesting thought that is worded very well.  I think that, for me, and for many others as well, I keep going back and forth in terms of whether I agree.  I think what MM and MP bring to the table in DT is similar, yet subtly different, and I'm not committed to the thought that either is "better" than the other.  When MP left and MM stepped in, there were things I missed about MP's playing and things I was thrilled about with MM's playing.  With MP back, there are things I will miss about MM's playing and things I am thrilled about with MP's return.  But I don't think either move was necessarily a "loss" or a "gain" for DT as a whole.  Even if MM can do things MP can't (and as well all should know, that is NOT a knock on MP at all), that doesn't necessarily mean that the band was "better" with him.  Just slightly different. 

[DoctorAction]

Great to see more of Mike playing and talking about DT. Can't wait to hear what they come up with together again! 🙂

[devieira73]

I don't know if someone already commented here, but MP lost the opportunity, when they are talking about the Awake Tour book signed by Jordan, to say that Jordan actually had played on that tour, only in the very first show!

[EvantheMotel6Owmer]

I don't know if someone already commented here, but MP lost the opportunity, when they are talking about the Awake Tour book signed by Jordan, to say that Jordan actually had played on that tour, only in the very first show!

Oh man, I was begging for him to mention that haha

[crystalstars17]

Wow. Who are you to say Derek is "relative mediocrity"? He's a great keyboardist in his own right as has been evident by his output since leaving DT. FII may be rightly criticized in comparison to the rest of their catalog, but it was hardly Derek's fault, even though he has often been a scapegoat for it. Besides, do you think they would've selected Derek to be their keyboardist if he was mediocre? Hardly.

I used the word relative. It's not that he was actually mediocre, but isn't anyone when we're making a comparison to JR? In the same way you could say an engineering professor at MIT is not mediocre, until you compare them with Nikola Tesla.

Well, as an observer to the conversation, you are coming across as very judgmental.  There are ways to state and opinion strongly and there are ways to state it that cross over into confrontational, judgmental, etc.  As I and the other mods have often said here through the years, it's not necessarily what you say, but how you say it.

In deference to your authority, can you please point out what I said that came across as "judgemental"? Because it was not intentional and you're obviously not the only one who took it that way. And also "confrontational"? Yes, please point this out so that I don't repeat my error.

[Wim Kruithof]

"Listening to Dream Theater last 13 years was emotional for me..."

Beautiful and I truly appreciate the open hearted Portnoy here, he seems to have learned so much in live.

Off; here we are though, another thread where the whole Magini-leaved-to-got fired spectrum conversation is re-opened... I wonder when this will leave the building, since both sides probably never will be confirmed from either the band or Mangini. Truth is usually in between.

[gborland]

Truth is usually in between.

It is possible for one side to simply be wrong. 

[Setlist Scotty]

I don't know if someone already commented here, but MP lost the opportunity, when they are talking about the Awake Tour book signed by Jordan, to say that Jordan actually had played on that tour, only in the very first show!

Oh man, I was begging for him to mention that haha

Well, to be honest, while it could be considered part of the Awake album/tour cycle, the show JR played was not part of the Waking Up the World Tour. It was a pre-tour industry only warm-up gig. 
 
 

I used the word relative. It's not that he was actually mediocre, but isn't anyone when we're making a comparison to JR? In the same way you could say an engineering professor at MIT is not mediocre, until you compare them with Nikola Tesla.

Oh I know you did and I figured you’d use that argument. But looking at it in context, you said:

relative mediocrity for the extreme highest quality.

While I would certainly agree that JR is the utmost caliber musician, by no means is DS a chump by comparison. You might get that impression from what was played on FII and the SoA albums or simply from what others have said here. But he is a very skilled musician and of a very high caliber, too. As I said, the band would not have made him an official member of the band (mind you, only after touring with him for 4 months) had he not been pulling his weight. And it's quite possible DS would still be DT's keyboardist had JR not agreed to join the band.

For the record, I think your assessment of comparing DS vs. JR to an engineering professor at MIT vs. Tesla is fairly reasonable, but that would mean you're also calling an engineering professor at MIT “relatively mediocre” which IMO is a bit much.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

"Listening to Dream Theater last 13 years was emotional for me..."

Beautiful and I truly appreciate the open hearted Portnoy here, he seems to have learned so much in live.

Off; here we are though, another thread where the whole Magini-leaved-to-got fired spectrum conversation is re-opened... I wonder when this will leave the building, since both sides probably never will be confirmed from either the band or Mangini. Truth is usually in between.

I think we are probably stuck with the topic for a long time. The lack of information has left a void so it is very topical. There are still a bunch of 'whys' left unanswered.

I think what makes the topic go away is either a full account or a DT16 album that is so good it makes the Decision unquestionable...or just time.