Dream Theater Top 100 countdown - 2024 Version! (#01 Up!)

[axeman90210]

In the Presence of Enemies- Very close, I had this at #23. not my favorite DT epic, but maybe the most fun. Heavy riffs and dramatic vocals about (the "Angels fall" bit is especially great).

Blind Faith- I was just higher, came in at #18. My second favorite song from Six Degrees, this is just a great song with a killer instrumental section. The guitar solo is underrated and then the keyboard break and unison are just absolute money.

Surrounded- That's a bingo! #20 for me as well. This song didn't click with me at first, but the live version with the Sugar Mice jam from the 2007 tour really converted me.

[pg1067]

22. In The Presence Of Enemies

21. Blind Faith

20. Surrounded

ITPOE made my ranking at #85, but I really don't like it all that much.  I very distinctly remember listening for the first time after receiving it from Amazon.  The song started nicely, but when it went into the "Flight of the Bumblebee" section, I really felt like DT had jumped the shark.  There are some nice moments, but I can't really think of any off the top of my head.  ITPOE finished at #25 in the prior countdown, so pretty much the same this time, and we have seen the last Systematic Chaos song, which means the album will finish a few points behind DT12 in the overall album rankings.

Blind Faith, on the other hand, is my favorite song on SDOIT (if the "title track" is properly regarded as a multi-song suite, which it isn't for purposes of this countdown).  I initially overlooked this song (along with Misunderstood) because I didn't really like TGP, and the rest of disc 1 isn't all that good - especially in comparison to disc 2 (which I basically played on a loop for most of 2002).  However, a few years later, I heard some random videos that had this song I didn't recognize.  After I figured it out and gave the song fair consideration, I fell in love.  Such an amazing piece, and JR's piano synth solo section is easily a top 5 moment in the band's catalog.  I ranked the song at #9.  It finished at #22 in the prior countdown, so another one with little change in position.

Surrounded was originally a bit of an afterthought on I&W, being sandwiched between Take the Time and Metropolis.  Great song.  Back when my wife would tolerate DT, we would sing harmonies over the intro and outro sections.  I ranked it at #22, and it came in at #15 in the prior countdown.



List                                                    Not Ranked         
100  This Dying Soul (47T)                  Never Enough (100), The Gift of Music (98), Our New World (93), A New Beginning (91), New Millennium (87), Sleeping Giant (85), Awaken the Master (81), The Best of Times (77), To Live Forever (75T)
99  I Walk Beside You (80)                  Answering the Call (75T), Lost Not Forgotten (73), Fall into the Light (72), Honor Thy Father (71), Raise the Knife (65), The Great Debate (53), Peruvian Skies (44T), Disappear (41), The Mirror (27)
98
97  This Is the Life (88)
96
95
94
93  Lines in the Sand (28)
92  The Ministry of Lost Souls (61)
91
90
89
88  Another Day (38)
87  Innocence Faded (42)
86  Lie (47T)
85  In the Presence of Enemies (22)
84  Forsaken (95)
83
82  Erotomania (40)
81  The Spirit Carries On (26)
80
79  Vacant (97)
78  Wait for Sleep (44T)
77  The Silent Man (66)
76
75  A Fortune in Lies (78)
74
73  A Nightmare to Remember (50)
72
71  These Walls (54)
70
69  At Wit's End (37)
68  The Shattered Fortress (79)
67  The Dark Eternal Night (70)
66  Pale Blue Dot (62)
65  Transcending Time (90)
64
63  Space-Dye Vest (30)
62
61  Beneath the Surface (64)
60  Hell's Kitchen (57)
59  Afterlife (96)
58
57  Surrender to Reason (83T)
56
55  The Alien (69)
54  The Root of All Evil (36)
53  The Bigger Picture (60)
52
51
50
49  As I Am (43)
48  A View from the Top of the World (49)
47  Lifting Shadows off a Dream (35)
46  Behind the Veil (89)
45
44  On the Backs of Angels (56)
43  Ytse Jam (67)
42  One Last Time (46)
41  Through Her Eyes (74)
40  The Dance of Eternity (33)
39  The Enemy Inside (83T)
38  Hollow Years (59)
37
36  Caught in a Web (51)
35  Barstool Warrior (52)
34  Endless Sacrifice (29)
33  Outcry (58)
32  6:00 (34)
31  The Looking Glass (92)
30  Bridges in the Sky (23)
29  Misunderstood (31)
28  S2N (94)
27  Wither (99)
26
25  Overture 1928 (32)
24  Beyond This Life (24)
23
22  Surrounded (20)
21
20
19  Sacrificed Sons (63)
18  Constant Motion (86) (high ranker)
17  Only a Matter of Time (82)
16
15  The Killing Hand (68)
14  Panic Attack (55)
13  Illumination Theory (25)
12
11  Stream of Consciousness (39)
10
9  Blind Faith (21)
8
7
6
5
4
3
2
1

[hefdaddy42]

I think we are entering the realm of All Killer, No Filler.

22 In The Presence of Enemies - # 34 for me.  Best song on that album, I think.  Pt. 1 much better than Pt. 2, but I still like the whole thing a lot.  Fun song to drive to.

21 Blind Faith - Just a fantastic, fantastic song.  I had it at # 14.  One of the best songs on an incredible album.  One that has escaped me live thus far; I hope they bring it back in the future.

20 Surrounded - A beautiful song.  # 27 for me.  Really, just a gorgeous piece of songwriting.


13 of my top 20 are still alive.

[Evermind]

In the Presence of Enemies - #1 - my favourite and also the most listened-to DT song. By far the most fun of their epics. I don't mind the soul-searching lyrics in their other epics, but sometimes you just need some good fun in terms of dark masters, heretics, manatees and also in terms of counts of Tuscany sometimes (I suppose that's still coming up!). The quiet section is their best as far as epics go for me. First part is all killer, no filler. Second part is the same. Guess I'm so used to the instrumental section I don't mind it at all, I love it. This song just rocks. Definitely thought I won't be the only #1 ranker.

I know it's somewhat polarizing and not for everyone though.

Blind Faith - #38 - best song on SDOIT for me, but still not amazing. Solid chorus.

Surrounded - #58 - if not for UAGM, this song would've been my least favourite on I&W. I still do like it quite a bit.

[pg1067]

Never say never, but by now I'd be absolutely surprised that the remaining 19 songs aren't those pg1067 and I identified with our small font count.

Looking at the list in retrospect, the last song I hadn't been absolutely confident would make make the list was These Walls at 54. I know, I know, anyone is a great predictor in retrospect...

I didn't give much thought to what was still to come until we hit #44 (tie between Peruvian Skies and Wait for Sleep).  I was a little surprised that Skies made the list, so I set about thinking what was still to come.  I figured out the top 43 with about 98% certainty, and once Disappear was revealed, I've been 100% confident about what's left.


The bottom 8 spots in the album rankings are set, with the only questions being the order between DOT and BC&SL for the 9/10 spots and between View and "Other" for the 13/14 spots which we likely won't know until the last few songs are revealed.  For now:

9. DOT (a virtual lock for this spot)
10. DT12 (has the #11 spot locked)
11. SC (has the #12 spot locked)
12. View (will likely finish in the #14 spot, with an outside chance of #13)
13. WDADU (has the #15 spot locked)
14. BC&SL (will jump to #10, with a small chance of hitting #9)
15. Other (likely #13)
16. TA (locked in the cellar)

Awake (the top album from the last countdown - largely because it has more songs than anything other than SFAM) and SFAM (#2 last time) will be duking it out for the top spot again

[devieira73]

In The Presence of Enemies (my #81). It seems like a bit of consensus here, the first part is better than the second which weaks the song as a whole. Still a very good song, it just should be better as an epic.

Blind Faith (my #26). It has a great FII meets Liquid Tension vibe and is really amazing!

Surrounded (my #65) has that feel good 80's prog vibe, very Marillionish. I love the Live at Marquee version, because of the intro with the piano tone and those beautiful splashes that MP added in the section that starts on 2:35 and repeats later on.

[Dream Team]

Surrounded used to be in my Top 10, but that's how the ranker spit it out and I'm good with it actually, hard to move any of the songs above it down. Blind Faith is a masterful composition from all members.

  5 Only a Matter of Time
  6 The Killing Hand
  9 The Great Debate
11 Outcry
12 Overture 1928
14 Blind Faith
16 One Last Time
18 Illumination Theory
19 Beyond This Life
20 Lost Not Forgotten
21 Surrounded
22 A View From the Top of the World
24 This is the Life
25 Beneath the Surface
26 A New Beginning
28 Fall Into the Light
29 Bridges in the Sky
30 The Best of Times
31 Afterlife
33 Disappear
35 S2N
38 Constant Motion
39 Behind the Veil
40 The Enemy Inside
41 Pale Blue Dot
42 The Root of All Evil
46 Misunderstood
48 A Fortune in Lies
52 Barstool Warrior
51 Our New World
53 At Wit's End
54 Wither
55 The Alien
56 Lifting Shadows off a Dream
57 Surrender to Reason
58 Raise the Knife
59 Innocence Faded
61 I Walk Beside You
62 Endless Sacrifice
63 Awaken the Master
64 The Looking Glass
65 Wait for Sleep
66 The Bigger Picture
67 A Nightmare to Remember
68 Sleeping Giant
70 The Ministry of Lost Souls
72 The Dance of Eternity
75 Panic Attack
76 Transcending Time
78 Ytse Jam
79 Sacrificed Sons
81 The Gift of Music
84 Answering the Call
88 The Mirror
93 Another Day
95 On the Backs of Angels
97 The Shattered Fortress

Missed the top 100: Never Enough, Vacant, Forsaken, New Millennium, Through Her Eyes, To Live Forever, Honor thy Father, The Dark Eternal Night, The Silent Man, Hollow Years, Hell's Kitchen, These Walls, Caught in a Web, Lie, This Dying Soul, Peruvian Skies, As I Am, Erotomania, Stream of Consciousness, 6:00, Space-Dye Vest, The Spirit Carries On, Lines in the Sand, ITPoE

Highest Ranker Of: Only a Matter of Time, Outcry

[Indiscipline]

In the Presence of Enemies: 5. Epic and dirty, the Spaghetti Western in DT's catalogue. Once you accept and dig into the story it tells, then every single note makes excellent sense.

Blind Faith: 64. A five minutes Top 10 song surrounded by unrankable stuff.

Surrounded: 25. Beautiful and dear to my heart. I used to spin it on my birthdays, before I started hating my birthdays.


The Score so far:

3 - The Spirit Carries On
4 - Lines in the Sand
5 - In the Presence of Enemies
7 - Misunderstood
9 - Space-Dye Vest
11 - Beyond This Life
14 - Stream of Consciousness
17 - Bridges in the Sky
19 - Illumination Theory
21 - A New Beginning
23 - Disappear
25 - Surrounded
27 - The Best of Times
28 - Outcry
31 - Erotomania
33 - Surrender to Reason
36 - This Is the Life
38 - Hell's Kitchen
42 - Another Day
43 - One Last Time
45 - Vacant
46 - The Gift of Music
47 - Beneath the Surface
48 - The Silent Man
54 - Peruvian Skies
55 - The Dance of Eternity
56 - The Bigger Picture
61 - Wait for Sleep
64 - Blind Faith
65 - Pale Blue Dot
68 - Our New World
69 - Overture 1928
70 - Innocence Faded
71 - Behind the Veil
72 - The Looking Glass
76 - Lifting Shadows Off a Dream
77 - At Wit's End
78 - Lie
79 - Hollow Years
87 - Ytse Jam
88 - The Mirror
89 - Through Her Eyes
90 - Lost Not Forgotten
91 - 6:00
92 - The Killing Hand
93 - Endless Sacrifice
95 - Barstool Warrior
96 - Fall Into the Light
97 - A Fortune in Lies

Not Ranked: 32

[nobloodyname]

In the Presence of Enemies: 5. Epic and dirty, the Spaghetti Western in DT's catalogue. Once you accept and dig into the story it tells, then every single note makes excellent sense.

The plagiarised story?

I really like the tune. Just wish MP didn't take the decision to split it up for the sake of doing something they hadn't done before.

[Revenge319]

I wish I had more to say about these songs, but most of my comments are either redundant from my own thoughts on previously mentioned songs and/or expressed much better by other people here.


6. Illumination Theory (-2)
7. Disappear (+1)
8. Blind Faith (+5)
10. The Best of Times (-7)
11. In the Presence of Enemies (+3)
12. A Nightmare to Remember (-1)
13. Erotomania (-1)
14. Space-Dye Vest (+5)
15. Misunderstood (+1)
17. This Dying Soul (+10)
18. The Shattered Fortress (+6)
21. The Ministry of Lost Souls (-4)
22. The Spirit Carries On (-7)
23. The Silent Man (+0)
24. The Dark Eternal Night (+9)
25. Beyond This Life (+3)
29. Lines in the Sand (+16)
30. Hell's Kitchen (-8)
32. A View From the Top of the World
33. Surrounded (-12)
34. Outcry (+36)
35. Constant Motion (+29)
37. A New Beginning (-7)
38. The Great Debate (+0)
39. Pale Blue Dot (-8)
40. Sleeping Giant
41. Endless Sacrifice (+21)
42. The Root of All Evil (-10)
46. Fall Into The Light (-10)
47. Barstool Warrior (-13)
48. The Bigger Picture (+0)
49. The Mirror (+9)
51. Ytse Jam (+4)
52. These Walls (+31)
56. Bridges in the Sky (-10)
58. S2N (+1)
59. The Enemy Inside (-10)
61. Awaken the Master
63. The Gift of Music (-2)
64. As I Am (+16)
66. Stream of Consciousness (-16)
67. Panic Attack (-15)
68. On the Backs of Angels (+20)
69. 6:00 (+24)
70. Another Day (-27)
71. Transcending Time
73. At Wit's End (-7)
77. Hollow Years (-2)
78. The Killing Hand (-37)
80. Wait For Sleep (-23)
83. The Dance of Eternity (+12)
84. This is the Life (-12)
87. A Fortune in Lies (+18)
88. I Walk Beside You (+31)
89. Never Enough (-18)
90. Wither (-4)
93. Vacant (+4)
94. Through Her Eyes (-13)
97. Innocence Faded (-8)
98. Lie (+19)
100. Our New World (+3)
----------------------------------
105. Answering the Call
109. The Alien
112. Beneath the Surface (-2)
116. Caught in a Web (+14)
122. Lost Not Forgotten (-9)
123. Behind the Veil (-2)
124. Peruvian Skies (+2)
130. The Looking Glass (+1)
131. Forsaken (-4)
137. Sacrificed Sons (-15)
139. Only a Matter of Time (-10)
141. Lifting Shadows Off A Dream (-25)
142. Afterlife (-7)
143. One Last Time (-4)
147. Surrender to Reason (-10)
148. New Millennium (-8)
149. Honor Thy Father (-7)
----------------------------------
Unranked: To Live Forever, Raise the Knife

[MirrorMask]

In the Presence of Enemies: 5. Epic and dirty, the Spaghetti Western in DT's catalogue. Once you accept and dig into the story it tells, then every single note makes excellent sense.

The plagiarised story?

I really like the tune. Just wish MP didn't take the decision to split it up for the sake of doing something they hadn't done before.

The decision to include Constant Motion, The Dark Eternal Night and the second Muse homage in a row is far worse than the split of In the Presence of Enemies 

Jokes aside, the split never bothered me, I can understand their reasoning of "The first half is a good opener and the end is a good closer".

[Indiscipline]

In the Presence of Enemies: 5. Epic and dirty, the Spaghetti Western in DT's catalogue. Once you accept and dig into the story it tells, then every single note makes excellent sense.

The plagiarised story?

I really like the tune. Just wish MP didn't take the decision to split it up for the sake of doing something they hadn't done before.

I have a question though, a purely philosophical-aestethical one, not one to argue: is it possible to plagiarise a story with a song?

You can obviously plagiarise a song with a song, but a story? Is To Tame a Land plagiarism then?

Isn't there a better way to define the issue, maybe "uncredited story"?

[Evermind]

In the Presence of Enemies: 5. Epic and dirty, the Spaghetti Western in DT's catalogue. Once you accept and dig into the story it tells, then every single note makes excellent sense.

The plagiarised story?

I really like the tune. Just wish MP didn't take the decision to split it up for the sake of doing something they hadn't done before.

The decision to include Constant Motion, The Dark Eternal Night and the second Muse homage in a row is far worse than the split of In the Presence of Enemies 

Wow, I agree completely, especially on the part about CM and TDEN.

The split doesn't bother me as it is. In fact I've listened to the album so much it's weird to actually hear Part 1 and Part 2 back to back. I always expect Forsaken to begin.

[CharlesPL]

itpoe - 61
blind - 33
surrounded - 9

[Wim Kruithof]

What can I say, I'm a sucker for Images And Words - and those songs in particular just hits the spot for me.

Very nice ranking Zydar, congrats. I decided to rank the epics above all and that makes Surrounded my #1 song of all the rest. And it really is. I love every part of it, from the lyrics to LaBrie's magnificent voice. Simply wonderful. I listen to the Marquee-version at least once a week...

I keep forgetting to go back to this but thank you so much Wim, I really appreciate your respect and praise.

Likewise mate!

096: Beyond This Life    72
095: I Walk Beside You     15
094: S2n     spot on
093: Never Enough     7
091: Caught In a Web     40
090: The Alien     21
089: Only a Matter of Time     7
088: Surrender to Reason     5
087: Forsaken     8
086: Through Her Eyes     12
085: The Silent Man     19
084: Constant Motion     2
083: Fall Into the Light     11
082: The Best of Times     5
080: Wait for Sleep     36
079: On the Backs of Angels     23
078: Behind the Veil     11
077: Afterlife     19
076: Hollow Years     17
074: Sacrified Sons     9
073: 6:00     39
072: Erotomania     32
069: Innocence Faded     27
068: The Enemy Inside     15
067: Pale Blue Dot     3
065: Another Day     27
063: Disappear     22
062: Peruvian Skies     18
061: Misunderstood     30
060: A Fortune in Lies     18
059: Hell's Kitchen     2
056: A Nightmare to Remember     6
055: Blind Faith     34
054: The Looking Glass     38
053: Raise the Knife     12
050: Wither     49
049: Lifting Shadows Off a Dream     14
048: Transcending Time     42
046: Barstool Warrior     6
045: The Root of All Evil     9
044: Ytse Jam     23
043: The Spirit Carries On     17
042: The Killing Hand     26
041: Sleeping Giant     44
040: Answering the Call     45
038: The Dance of Eternity     5
037: The Bigger Picture     23
036: Lines In the Sand     8
034: As I Am     9
033: At Wit's End   4
031: Endless Sacrifice     2
030: Space-Dye Vest     spot on
029: Awaken the Master     52
028: Stream of Conciousness     11
027: Honor Thy Father     44
025: Lie     22
024: One Last Time     22
018: Outcry     47
017: Beneath the Surface     49
016: The Shattered Fortress     63
015: The Mirror     12
014: This Dying Soul     33
012: Bridges In the Sky     11
010: The Ministry of Lost Souls     51
008: Surrounded     12
007: A View From the Top of the World     42
006: In the Presence of Enemies     16
004: Illumination Theory     21 highest

not ranked: 10 The Gift of Music / Vacant / Our New World / A New Beginning / This Is the Life / New Millennium / To Live Forever / Lost Not Forgotten / The Dark Eternal Night / Overture 1928

[nobloodyname]

In the Presence of Enemies: 5. Epic and dirty, the Spaghetti Western in DT's catalogue. Once you accept and dig into the story it tells, then every single note makes excellent sense.

The plagiarised story?

I really like the tune. Just wish MP didn't take the decision to split it up for the sake of doing something they hadn't done before.

I have a question though, a purely philosophical-aestethical one, not one to argue: is it possible to plagiarise a story with a song?

You can obviously plagiarise a song with a song, but a story? Is To Tame a Land plagiarism then?

Isn't there a better way to define the issue, maybe "uncredited story"?

It's an interesting question. Weren't some of the words lifted directly?

[Indiscipline]

In the Presence of Enemies: 5. Epic and dirty, the Spaghetti Western in DT's catalogue. Once you accept and dig into the story it tells, then every single note makes excellent sense.

The plagiarised story?

I really like the tune. Just wish MP didn't take the decision to split it up for the sake of doing something they hadn't done before.

I have a question though, a purely philosophical-aestethical one, not one to argue: is it possible to plagiarise a story with a song?

You can obviously plagiarise a song with a song, but a story? Is To Tame a Land plagiarism then?

Isn't there a better way to define the issue, maybe "uncredited story"?

It's an interesting question. Weren't some of the words lifted directly?

A whole lot of them.

[jingle.boy]

In the Presence of Enemies: 5. Epic and dirty, the Spaghetti Western in DT's catalogue. Once you accept and dig into the story it tells, then every single note makes excellent sense.

The plagiarised story?

I really like the tune. Just wish MP didn't take the decision to split it up for the sake of doing something they hadn't done before.

I have a question though, a purely philosophical-aestethical one, not one to argue: is it possible to plagiarise a story with a song?

You can obviously plagiarise a song with a song, but a story? Is To Tame a Land plagiarism then?

Isn't there a better way to define the issue, maybe "uncredited story"?

It's an interesting question. Weren't some of the words lifted directly?

A whole lot of them.

I think autocorrect changed "The" to "A".   

[HOF]

The band Camel wrote a concept album based on the novel The Snow Goose. The author refused to let them use the name “The Snow Goose” or lyrics based on the text of the book, so it ended up being an all instrumental album titled “Music Inspired by The Snow Goose.”

Why did the author object? Well, just copyright infringement. But the legend/story I had always heard until I checked Wikipedia just now was that he thought the band were promoting smoking, which is a much better story. Oh well!

[The Realm]

In The Presence of Enemies - absolutely love part 1. Not that much of a fan of part 2 but I did really love it when seeing it performed live. My rank 40.

Blind Faith - the vocal bridge leading to the instrumental and piano breakdown is one of my all time favourite parts of a DT song. Not a huge fan of the chorus but it works well enough. My rank 20.

Surrounded - this song has always had a magical quality to me. My rank 12.

Not sure there are any real surprises left with the songs remaining apart from the order. The majority of them are in my personal top 20, with the biggest outlier being at number 39.

[jingle.boy]

Not sure there are any real surprises left with the songs remaining apart from the order. The majority of them are in my personal top 20, with the biggest outlier being at number 39.

Shit, I've only got 13 songs left in my Top 20 - one of which doesn't appear to be making the list at all.    Like, this song is worse than fucking Wither?!?!?!

[Stadler]

The band Camel wrote a concept album based on the novel The Snow Goose. The author refused to let them use the name “The Snow Goose” or lyrics based on the text of the book, so it ended up being an all instrumental album titled “Music Inspired by The Snow Goose.”

Why did the author object? Well, just copyright infringement. But the legend/story I had always heard until I checked Wikipedia just now was that he thought the band were promoting smoking, which is a much better story. Oh well!

Frank Herbert objected to Maiden's song "Dune"... until they changed it to "To Tame A Land".   2112 was nominally referenced with a nod to "the genius of Ayn Rand".

[energythief]

Not sure there are any real surprises left with the songs remaining apart from the order. The majority of them are in my personal top 20, with the biggest outlier being at number 39.

Shit, I've only got 13 songs left in my Top 20 - one of which doesn't appear to be making the list at all.    Like, this song is worse than fucking Wither?!?!?!

What song?

[pg1067]

The decision to include Constant Motion, The Dark Eternal Night and the second Muse homage in a row is far worse than the split of In the Presence of Enemies 

But Constant Motion is the best song on the album!   

I have a question though, a purely philosophical-aestethical one, not one to argue: is it possible to plagiarise a story with a song?

You can obviously plagiarise a song with a song, but a story? Is To Tame a Land plagiarism then?

Isn't there a better way to define the issue, maybe "uncredited story"?

I don't know what the "purely philosophical-aestethical [sic?]" part of this means, and a song can be a "story."  That said, from a legal standpoint, it is certainly possible for a song to be a derivative of a comic book (which is, I believe, the source material for ITPOE).

Under United States law (and the laws of most major, developed countries is the same or similar), the owner of a copyright protected work has the exclusive right to do various things with the work, including "prepare derivate works based on the [protected] work."  https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/106

The U.S. Copyright Act (section 101) defines a "derivative work" to be "a work based upon one or more preexisting works, such as a translation, musical arrangement, dramatization, fictionalization, motion picture version, sound recording, art reproduction, abridgment, condensation, or any other form in which a work may be recast, transformed, or adapted.  A work consisting of editorial revisions, annotations, elaborations, or other modifications which, as a whole, represent an original work of authorship, is a 'derivative work.'"

I'm not familiar with the source material for ITPOE, but my understanding is that it's very much a derivative work.  Likewise, Scenes from a Memory is very much a derivative of the 1991 movie Dead Again, and Rush's 2112 was a derivative of Ayn Rand's novella Anthem.  I've never heard anyone discuss this for either SFAM or 2112, but I'd love to know if Rush/DT were ever contacted about a potential infringement claim and whether payments were ever made.  I've read that there is no public record of Rand, who died in 1982, commenting publicly about 2112, and I know nothing about Kenneth Branagh ever commenting on SFAM (this thread was started 6 years ago but never went anywhere - https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=52416.0 ).  As far as To Tame a Land goes, while I've never read Dune (or seen any of the movie adaptations), my understanding is that the song is more of an homage than a derivative.  The song sort of describes the setting of the book but doesn't really tell the story (again, though, I haven't read the book or seen the movies).  After all, it's pretty hard for a 212 word song to be a derivative of a 900 page book.

Frank Herbert objected to Maiden's song "Dune"... until they changed it to "To Tame A Land".

The story (that I've heard) is that someone (Rod Smallwood?) called Frank Herbert and said they were planning to release a song called "Dune," and he (paraphrasing) "doesn't like rock music, really doesn't like heavy metal, and especially doesn't like Iron Maiden," and this caused them to change the name of the song (but the lyrics presumably went unchanged).  Of course, we don't know exactly what was said, but the mere change of the title was really more of a gesture than something substantive.  I don't think Herbert could have sued successfully either way.

Shit, I've only got 13 songs left in my Top 20 - one of which doesn't appear to be making the list at all.    Like, this song is worse than fucking Wither?!?!?!

Of course.  Lots of song are worse than what is probably their best "ballad."

[wolfking]

ITPOE came in for me at 21.  I never noticed this much but lately after my relistens I discovered how epic it is and have replayed it a lot!  Up there with any DT epic really.

Blind Faith I had at number 6.  This is one of those DT songs that has an atmosphere and presence that can never be recreated, I just love it and have listened to it so many times.  The 'still life pushes on' section is one of my fav DT sections, easily.

Surrounded came in at 62.  A lovely song, I just never rated it quite as high as most.



List                                                        Not Ranked         
100                                                    The Gift of Music
99 The Best of Times                          A New Beginning
98 Constant Motion                             New Millenium
97                                                     Sleeping Giant
96 A Fortune in Lies                            Awaken the Master
95 The Alien                                       To Live Forever
94 Our New World                               The Killing Hand
93 This is the Life                                Ytse Jam
92 Disappear                                       The Silent Man
91 Hollow Years                                   Raise the Knife
90 Sacrificed Sons                               Beneath the Surface
89 Only A Matter of Time
88 Vacant
87
86 Through Her Eyes
85
84 Stream Of Consciousness
83
82 Transcending Time
81
80
79 Pale Blue Dot
78 Wither
77 Lines in the Sand
76
75 The Ministry of Lost Souls
74 The Enemy Inside
73 One Last Time
72 Peruvian Skies
71 Forsaken
70 Lost Not Forgotten
69
68
67 S2N
66 Fall Into the Light
65
64 The Looking Glass
63 Panic Attack
62 Surrounded
61 On the Backs of Angels
60 Beyond This Life
59
58 Afterlife
57 Caught In A Web
56
55
54 The Great Debate
53 A Nightmare to Remember
52 Erotomania
51 Answering the Call
50 The Spirit Carries On
49 Space-Dye Vest
48 The Shattered Fortress
47
46 As I Am
45 Bridges in the Sky
44 The Dark Eternal Night
43
42 Never Enough
41 Wait For Sleep
40
39
38
37 The Bigger Picture
36 Outcry
35 
34 Lie
33 The Root of All Evil
32 I Walk Beside You
31
30 A View From the Top of the World
29 Surrender to Reason
28 Barstool Warrior
27 Another Day
26 Lifting Shadows Off A Dream
25 Endless Sacrifice
24 Innocence Faded
23 Misunderstood
22
21 In the Presence of Enemies
20 Behind the Veil
19 Honor Thy Father
18
17
16
15
14
13 These Walls
12 At Wit's End
11 The Mirror
10
9
8
7
6 Blind Faith
5 Illumination Theory
4
3
2 This Dying Soul.
1

[Indiscipline]

I have a question though, a purely philosophical-aestethical one, not one to argue: is it possible to plagiarise a story with a song?

You can obviously plagiarise a song with a song, but a story? Is To Tame a Land plagiarism then?

Isn't there a better way to define the issue, maybe "uncredited story"?

I don't know what the "purely philosophical-aestethical [sic?]" part of this means, and a song can be a "story."  That said, from a legal standpoint, it is certainly possible for a song to be a derivative of a comic book (which is, I believe, the source material for ITPOE).

Under United States law (and the laws of most major, developed countries is the same or similar), the owner of a copyright protected work has the exclusive right to do various things with the work, including "prepare derivate works based on the [protected] work."  https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/106

The U.S. Copyright Act (section 101) defines a "derivative work" to be "a work based upon one or more preexisting works, such as a translation, musical arrangement, dramatization, fictionalization, motion picture version, sound recording, art reproduction, abridgment, condensation, or any other form in which a work may be recast, transformed, or adapted.  A work consisting of editorial revisions, annotations, elaborations, or other modifications which, as a whole, represent an original work of authorship, is a 'derivative work.'"

I'm not familiar with the source material for ITPOE, but my understanding is that it's very much a derivative work.  Likewise, Scenes from a Memory is very much a derivative of the 1991 movie Dead Again, and Rush's 2112 was a derivative of Ayn Rand's novella Anthem.  I've never heard anyone discuss this for either SFAM or 2112, but I'd love to know if Rush/DT were ever contacted about a potential infringement claim and whether payments were ever made.  I've read that there is no public record of Rand, who died in 1982, commenting publicly about 2112, and I know nothing about Kenneth Branagh ever commenting on SFAM (this thread was started 6 years ago but never went anywhere - https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=52416.0 ).  As far as To Tame a Land goes, while I've never read Dune (or seen any of the movie adaptations), my understanding is that the song is more of an homage than a derivative.  The song sort of describes the setting of the book but doesn't really tell the story (again, though, I haven't read the book or seen the movies).  After all, it's pretty hard for a 212 word song to be a derivative of a 900 page book.

First off, thanks for the response!

To the bolded part, I meant - perhaps incorrectly and obscurely - "philosophical-aesthetical" as pertaining the knowledge of those mechanics governing artistic creation and fruition, not the practical (I am aware we are talking about a derivative work) and legal ones you have fully clarified. It's very clear to me we're dealing with plagiarised lyrics (if not properly credited, but I honestly ignore whether that's the case ).

What I was trying to ask - in philosophical terms, i.e. for love of reasoning - whether is it actually correct (not in a court of law) to qualify a song as plagiarised when it is made of non-plagiarised music interacting with plagiarised lyrics - scratch that, with plagiarised text: it becomes lyrics only by mating with music. If Verdi, instead of commissioning the libretto for, say, his Otello had lifted Shakespeare's Othello's verses verbatim, would we call Verdi's Otello a plagiarised opera?

You rightfully say a song can be a story, and it actually always is even without lyrics. Doesn't the original story (now song and not a penciled page) marrying the plagiarised story (now lyrics and not text) create a different story, or at least one it feels reductive to call plagiarised?

[Jamesman42]

25. Illumination Theory (91st) DREAM THEATER, IF YOU'RE READING THIS, DO MORE STUFF IN THE VEIN OF THE LAST FEW MINUTES OF THIS SONG. SO GOOD.
24. Beyond This Life (88th) I'm a SFAM hater, what can I say? It's an okay song though.
23. Bridges In The Sky (8th) This song could be top 5 but the intro is too long, it's otherwise a stellar song. When JLB sings "crossing bridges in the sky", it's so good.
22. In The Presence Of Enemies (28th) Cool epic on a weird album. I don't like the Dark Master part. Everything else is good. Odd song for DT, though.
21. Blind Faith (42nd) Easily the worst track of SDOIT but still just fine.
20. Surrounded (25th) What a lovely song. Just, so bouncy but then a bit serious. DT does this style of song nicely.

[twosuitsluke]

What a bunch to catch up on! These are some of my favourite DT songs ever.

Kicking off with Lines In the Sand. This isn't one of my faves, but still pretty good. I had it at #92.

The Mirror is yet another Awake songs that I ranked relatively low. It has some cool bits but some really plodding sections as well.

The Spirit Carries On, here we are, my #1. This song just speaks to my soul, and when I rediscovered my obsession with the band 10 years ago (which drew me to you lovely folks) I fell hard for this song. This an example of a great guitar solo elevating a song to godly levels. JP's guitar leads, and solo is just as good as be ever gets. James' performance is also great, especially the "move on be brave..." bit. I have a vivid memory of coming back in a taxi from a night out, drunk and playing this song and just feeling like the guitar solo just took me somewhere else. I honestly just adore it and can't imagine ever tiring of it.

Illumination Theory was also really high for me, and I had it at #7. It's become one of my favourite highlights and the standout song from the MM era, without question. I can't fathom fans of the band not liking this, honestly. I think it packs it all in and is easily in the running for their best ever epic. The intro and heavy section starts off wonderfully, the orchestral interlude is just breathtaking. I love that bit around the 6:20 mark, and although the transition into the orchestral section isn't that smooth I still love it. The swell of those strings is goosebumps inducing and really elegant. The transition when that bass hits is also a bit jarring, but I couldn't care less when it sounds as good as it does. Lastly, I have to mention James' delivery on that "To really feel the joy in life..." part. It is probably a top 5 Labrie moment and definitely helped sell the song to me first time I heard it. I'd be happy without the little 'easter egg' at the end, but I guess you can't have it all. This is pretty close to perfection to me.

As a Scenes From a Memory lover, I had Beyond This Life at #33. I find most of the song to be pretty solid, and better in the context of the album, rather than as a stand alone song, but the "All that we learnt this time..." bit is really good.

Bridges In the Sky. This song is pretty good, but I'm so shocked it ended this high, and beat out some of the competition below it. I had it at #60 personally.

#22 for In the Presence of Enemies. What a great epic, and another absolute highlight from Systematic Chaos. I just think the whole thing is cool as shit.

I'll have to catch up with the others later...


My ranking so far:

1. The Spirit Carries On
7. Illumination Theory
9. Another Day
11. A Nightmare To Remember
12. Overture 1928
13. Wither
15. The Root of All Evil
16. Panic Attack
17. The Dance of Eternity
18. The Dark Eternal Night
20. Never Enough
21. The Ministry of Lost Souls
22. In the Presence of Enemies
23. Sacrificed Sons
27. The Best of Times
28. These Walls
29. Constant Motion
30. A New Beginning
31. The Shattered Fortress
33. Beyond This Life
35. The Enemy Inside
36. I Walk Beside You
40. One Last Time
44. Through Her Eyes
45. The Looking Glass
49. Forsaken
50. Endless Sacrifice
51. Misunderstood
55. Behind the Veil
56. On the Backs of Angels
57. The Bigger Picture
58. Innocence Faded
60. Bridges In the Sky
62. Surrender to Reason
63. Stream of Consciousness
64. Fall Into the Light
65. The Great Debate
66. Wait For Sleep
67. As I Am
69. Ytse Jam
72. Peruvian Skies
73. Honor Thy Father
74. At Wit's End
75. Lie
76. This Dying Soul
77. A View from the Top of the World
80. To Live Forever
82. Barstool Warrior
83. This is the Life
84. Lost Not Forgotten
86. Our New World
88. 6:00
89. Erotomania
90. Lifting Shadows Off a Dream
91. Caught In a Web
92. Lines In the Sand
93. Hollow Years
94. The Mirror
95. Disappear
96. Beneath the Surface
97. Space-Dye Vest
99. Pale Blue Dot
100. New Millennium

Not ranked:

101. Outcry
104. Hell's Kitchen
109. Vacant
110. The Silent Man
111. Raise The Knife
112. Only a Matter of Time
113. Afterlife
114. A Fortune in Lies
115. The Killing Hand
119. Sleeping Giant
121. Awaken the Master
122. Answering the Call
123. Transcending Time
124. The Alien
125. S2N
140. The Gift of Music

Like, this song is worse than fucking Wither?!?!?!

Yes, it is.

[King Puppies and the Acid Guppies]

In the Presence of Enemies - #1 - my favourite and also the most listened-to DT song. By far the most fun of their epics. I don't mind the soul-searching lyrics in their other epics, but sometimes you just need some good fun in terms of dark masters, heretics, manatees and also in terms of counts of Tuscany sometimes (I suppose that's still coming up!). The quiet section is their best as far as epics go for me. First part is all killer, no filler. Second part is the same. Guess I'm so used to the instrumental section I don't mind it at all, I love it. This song just rocks. Definitely thought I won't be the only #1 ranker.

I know it's somewhat polarizing and not for everyone though.

I thought for sure I had the highest rank on this song. I had it at #4, but you came in with it at #1! Wasn't expecting that. It's an amazing epic, topped by only 3 other epics in the DT catalogue.

[nobloodyname]

First off, thanks for the response!

To the bolded part, I meant - perhaps incorrectly and obscurely - "philosophical-aesthetical" as pertaining the knowledge of those mechanics governing artistic creation and fruition, not the practical (I am aware we are talking about a derivative work) and legal ones you have fully clarified. It's very clear to me we're dealing with plagiarised lyrics (if not properly credited, but I honestly ignore whether that's the case ).

What I was trying to ask - in philosophical terms, i.e. for love of reasoning - whether is it actually correct (not in a court of law) to qualify a song as plagiarised when it is made of non-plagiarised music interacting with plagiarised lyrics - scratch that, with plagiarised text: it becomes lyrics only by mating with music. If Verdi, instead of commissioning the libretto for, say, his Otello had lifted Shakespeare's Othello's verses verbatim, would we call Verdi's Otello a plagiarised opera?

You rightfully say a song can be a story, and it actually always is even without lyrics. Doesn't the original story (now song and not a penciled page) marrying the plagiarised story (now lyrics and not text) create a different story, or at least one it feels reductive to call plagiarised?

Ah, just a side note: I used 'plagiarised' because I didn't sit here and consider my words carefully enough. It was a poor choice of word. I should have spoken more clearly, noting that JP appeared to have copied many of the words (that would go on to form the lyrics) from a previously published source.

[MirrorMask]

Retrospective time also for me!

1 Will surely make the top 20
2 Will surely make the top 20
3 Will surely make the top 20
4 The Mirror (27) +23
5 Will surely make the top 20
6 Will surely make the top 20
7 Will surely make the top 20
8 Will surely make the top 20
9 Will surely make the top 20
10 Will surely make the top 20
11 Will surely make the top 20
12 Will surely make the top 20
13 The Spirit Carries On (26) +13
14 Will surely make the top 20
15 Will surely make the top 20
16 Beyond This Life (24) +8
17 The Silent Man (66) +49
18 Space-Dye Vest (30) +12
19 Will surely make the top 20
20 Lie (47) +27
21 Peruvian Skies (44) +23
22 The Root of All Evil (36) +14
23 Through Her Eyes (73) +50
24 Innocence Faded (42) +18
25 Endless Sacrifice (29) +4
26 Will surely make the top 20
27 Bridges In the Sky (23) -4
28 Wither (99) +71 (biggest positive delta)
29 Forsaken (95) +66
30 These Walls (54) +24
31 Will surely make the top 20
32 As I Am (43) +11
33 Surrounded (20) -13
34 Wait For Sleep (44) + 10
35 Disappear (41) +6
36 It's not gonna make the list
37 Will surely make the top 20
38 Beneath the Surface (64) +26
39 Will surely make the top 20
40 It's not gonna make the list
41 It's not gonna make the list
42 The Bigger Picture (60) +18
43 In the Presence of Enemies (22) -21
44 Will surely make the top 20
45 Hollow Years (59) +14
46 Caught In a Web (51) +5
47 Another Day (38) -9
48 I Walk Beside You (80) +32
49 Lifting Shadows Off a Dream (35) -14
50 Outcry (58) +8
51 6:00 (34) -17
52 It's not gonna make the list
53 Only a Matter of Time (82) +29
54 Misunderstood (31) -23
55 One Last Time (46) -9
56 The Ministry of Lost Souls (61) +5
57 At Wit's End (37) -20
58 Behind the Veil (89) +31
59 It's not gonna make the list
60 Blind Faith (21) -39
61 It's not gonna make the list
62 The Killing Hand (68) +6
63 On the Backs of Angels (56) -7
64 It's not gonna make the list
65 A Nightmare To Remember (50) -15
66 Barstool Warrior (52) -14
67 It's not gonna make the list
68 A Fortune in Lies (78) +10
69 It's not gonna make the list
70 The Gift of Music (98) +28
71 Erotomania (40) -31
72 Raise The Knife (65) -7
73 Panic Attack (55) -18
74 It's not gonna make the list
75 Overture 1928 (32) -43
76 The Dance of Eternity (33) -43
77 It's not gonna make the list
78 The Best of Times (77) -1
79 It's not gonna make the list
80 It's not gonna make the list
81 Lines In the Sand (28) - 53
82 It's not gonna make the list
83 Transcending Time (90) +7
84 Illumination Theory (25) -59 (biggest negative delta)
85 It's not gonna make the list
86 Vacant (97) +11
87 The Shattered Fortress (79) -8
88 It's not gonna make the list
89 Fall Into The Light (72) -17
90 It's not gonna make the list
91 It's not gonna make the list
92 A View from the Top of the World (49) -43
93 It's not gonna make the list
94 It's not gonna make the list
95 It's not gonna make the list
96 Never Enough (100) +4
97 Answering the Call (76) -21
98 It's not gonna make the list
99 The Enemy Inside (83) -16
100 S2N (94) -6


Songs I ranked, but didn't make my top 100:

102 New Millennium (87) -15
104 This Dying Soul (47) -57
106 Sacrificed Sons (63) -43
107 The Alien (69) -38
110 This is the Life (88) -22
115 Surrender to Reason (84) -31
117 Ytse Jam (67) -50
119 Stream of Consciousness (39) -80
123 Our New World (93) -30
124 Pale Blue Dot (62) -62
128 Hell's Kitchen (57) -71
129 The Great Debate (53) -76


Songs I didn't even bother to rank when I made my final and decisive ranking:

NR Awaken the Master (81)
NR Afterlife (96)
NR The Looking Glass (92)
NR A New Beginning (91)
NR Constant Motion (86)
NR Sleeping Giant (85)
NR To Live Forever (76)
NR Lost not Forgotten (73)
NR Honor Thy Father (71)
NR The Dark Eternal Night (70)

[Wim Kruithof]

19 songs remaining and 11 of my top 20-spots are already filled. Curious how the forum filled the top ranking. I can't imagine any of the 19 songs left aren't in my own list, so that means only 10 songs of the whole top 100 are not in my own ranking... and likewise.

That's not that much, looks like I'm pretty average in here...

[nobloodyname]

8 of my top 20 are filled but I'm confident the remaining 12 will all be there.

[JiM-Xtreme]

22. In The Presence Of Enemies - 47 for me. Not one of the greatest epics they've done IMO but still very enjoyable. The instrumental parts shine throughout, particularly in Pt I. but Pt II. also has a great instrumental.

21. Blind Faith - 30 for me. Simply a great song.

20. Surrounded - 67 for me. Probably the weakest track on I&W (although, considering what it's up against...). I find 20 slightly high. The soft piano and vocal sections are great, everything in between is just good.

[ReaperKK]

Into the top 20 we go!

19. Finally Free
Highest Finish: 3 (Lethean, The Realm)
Number of Lists appeared on: 63 (Adami, Animal, Awaken, axeman90210, Ben_Jamin, bosk1, CanuckChum, CharlesPL, Cool Chris, Dave_Manchester, devieira73, Dittomist, DragonAttack, DTwwbwMP, energythief, Evermind, Fonzie, geeeemo, hefdaddy42, Indiscipline, Jamesman42, jammindude, jeff_kinsley, JiM-Xtreme, jingle.boy, jonny108, JPZealot, KevShmev, King Puppies and the Acid Guppies, Lethean, lightningbolt, lucasembarbosa, mariner, Metro, MirrorMask, Mladen, MoraWintersoul, Mosh, MustActFastToCoverUp, nobloodyname, NoFred, OpenYourEyes311, Peter Mc, pg1067, PixelDream, Podaar, ReaperKK, ReaPsTA, Revenge319, romdrums, Setlist Scotty, Stadler, SwedishGoose, TAC, The Realm, Toro, Trav86, twosuitsluke, Vmadera00, weirdo, Wim Kruithof, wolfking, Zydar)

One of the best closing tracks in DT catalog. I love the live versions with MP doing the solos at the end.

18. Strange Deja Vu
Highest Finish: 3 (NoFred, Stadler)
Number of Lists appeared on: 65 (Adami, Animal, Awaken, axeman90210, Ben_Jamin, bosk1, CanuckChum, CharlesPL, Cool Chris, Dave_Manchester, devieira73, Dittomist, DragonAttack, Dream Team, DTwwbwMP, energythief, Evermind, Fonzie, geeeemo, hefdaddy42, Indiscipline, Jamesman42, jammindude, jeff_kinsley, JiM-Xtreme, jingle.boy, jonny108, JPZealot, KevShmev, King Puppies and the Acid Guppies, Lethean, lightningbolt, lucasembarbosa, mariner, Metro, MirrorMask, Mladen, MoraWintersoul, Mosh, MustActFastToCoverUp, nobloodyname, NoFred, OpenYourEyes311, Peter Mc, pg1067, PixelDream, Podaar, porcacultor, ReaperKK, ReaPsTA, Revenge319, romdrums, Setlist Scotty, Stadler, SwedishGoose, TAC, The Realm, Toro, Trav86, twosuitsluke, Vmadera00, WardySI, weirdo, wolfking, Zydar)

Kind of surprised to see this placed as high as it did. The pairing of O1928 and Strange Deja Vu is *chefs kiss*

17. Take The Time
Highest Finish: 3 (twosuitluke)
Number of Lists appeared on: 60 (Adami, Animal, Awaken, axeman90210, CanuckChum, CharlesPL, Cool Chris, Dave_Manchester, devieira73, Dittomist, Dream Team, DTwwbwMP, energythief, Evermind, Fonzie, geeeemo, hefdaddy42, Indiscipline, Jamesman42, jammindude, jeff_kinsley, JiM-Xtreme, jingle.boy, jonny108, JPZealot, KevShmev, King Puppies and the Acid Guppies, Lethean, lightningbolt, lucasembarbosa, mariner, Metro, MirrorMask, MoraWintersoul, Mosh, MustActFastToCoverUp, nobloodyname, NoFred, OpenYourEyes311, Peter Mc, pg1067, PixelDream, Podaar, porcacultor, ReaperKK, ReaPsTA, romdrums, Setlist Scotty, Stadler, SwedishGoose, TAC, The Realm, Toro, Trav86, twosuitsluke, Vmadera00, WardySI, weirdo, wolfking, Zydar)

Middle of the pack song for me off I&W. The verses never really did much for me but I love the chorus.