Dream Theater Top 100 countdown - 2024 Version!

Started by KevShmev, November 11, 2023, 06:21:58 AM

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Jamesman42

DAD you're embarrassing me again! Let me rank my tracks please
\o\ lol /o/

hefdaddy42

Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 11, 2014, 08:19:46 PMHef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

WardySI

Quote from: Setlist Scotty on November 11, 2023, 04:15:49 PM
Being that not everyone is super familiar with some of the more obscure DT tracks in their catalog, here are links to all the live-only and non-album tracks that are included in the list. This way those of you not familiar with the songs can hear them before making an informed decision on whether they'll end up on your list or not. And at the very least, perhaps it will introduce you to some new songs that you might not have heard before!   :)

Moon Bubbles:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vqatqBETec

Slow Motion (note: only recordings are all from the audience):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7b0su9mY9o

Bombay Vindaloo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZhlbP8CGMM

Barfbag:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwJqM1p82AA&t=3839s

Awake Jam:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzsNZmxX64g&t=2687s

The Gladiator Theme:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGRDo8bUljo&t=2583s

Another Won:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bN8-OwdX6aE&list=OLAK5uy_l7Htu8vsqmVCHMDc7zD9CUDrOfObFp1yo&index=18

Your Majesty:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-mXY8OjPEs&list=OLAK5uy_l7Htu8vsqmVCHMDc7zD9CUDrOfObFp1yo&index=19

A Vision:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVnyQrZF7S0&list=OLAK5uy_l7Htu8vsqmVCHMDc7zD9CUDrOfObFp1yo&index=20

Two Far:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwK26gTPeIU&list=OLAK5uy_l7Htu8vsqmVCHMDc7zD9CUDrOfObFp1yo&index=21

Vital Star:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDJ1P-99cA8&list=OLAK5uy_l7Htu8vsqmVCHMDc7zD9CUDrOfObFp1yo&index=22

March of the Tyrant:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8bgMDSdYl0&list=OLAK5uy_l7Htu8vsqmVCHMDc7zD9CUDrOfObFp1yo&index=23

Cry for Freedom (instrumental demo - a demo with vocals was never done):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXu76cJDZsk

Cry for Freedom (live with Chris Collins on vocals):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoJ6-MSRx8o

To Live Forever:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_KWl5hFp7s

Don't Look Past Me:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1zUHIZDsfI

Eve:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiayUWUhZSQ

Raise the Knife:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUCobA896mU&list=OLAK5uy_l5hTdIRhdTXP8zm558lxjjuGCjdFbLa-8&index=1

Where Are You Now:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXQGhKQLQ-Q&list=OLAK5uy_l5hTdIRhdTXP8zm558lxjjuGCjdFbLa-8&index=2

The Way It Used to Be:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wth0sfxz6Gw&list=OLAK5uy_l5hTdIRhdTXP8zm558lxjjuGCjdFbLa-8&index=7

Cover My Eyes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCMGvxVENpc&list=OLAK5uy_l5hTdIRhdTXP8zm558lxjjuGCjdFbLa-8&index=12

Speak to Me:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQSBIVcCgmk&list=OLAK5uy_l5hTdIRhdTXP8zm558lxjjuGCjdFbLa-8&index=15

Raw Dog:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6OfqGvliyw

Cannot thank you enough for making this list! Was going be a daunting enough task as was but there's quite a few there I'd forgotten or maybe not even heard before.

The things we do for kicks  :lol

But yes Cheers for this!

jammindude

I started on my list yesterday, but this is going to take me a week or two.

I've put almost everything in the ranker, and I've made up my mind that if I either can't remember a song (or both songs) or I'm having difficulty choosing, I am going to take a moment and listen to each song back to back in its entirety before making a decision.

Obviously this will not be done in one sitting. I just want to make sure this list is as accurate as it can be.

Stadler

Quote from: jammindude on December 04, 2023, 05:14:17 PM
I started on my list yesterday, but this is going to take me a week or two.

I've put almost everything in the ranker, and I've made up my mind that if I either can't remember a song (or both songs) or I'm having difficulty choosing, I am going to take a moment and listen to each song back to back in its entirety before making a decision.

Obviously this will not be done in one sitting. I just want to make sure this list is as accurate as it can be.

This is what I'm doing.

twosuitsluke

Thought of the day (getting close to finishing my ranking), wherever Illumination Theory ranks, it's gonna be too low!
Quote from: ariich on November 07, 2023, 12:38:53 PMJust popping in to say Luke, you were right.
Quote from: ariich09/07/2023, 14:25:10
luke: Pokemon – Pokemon Theme That was the best! I like Pokemon and I liked the characters. I think there was all of them. It was cool. [Have you heard that song before?] No! Score: 10 trillion

Wim Kruithof

Quote from: twosuitsluke on December 05, 2023, 12:28:53 PM
Thought of the day (getting close to finishing my ranking), wherever Illumination Theory ranks, it's gonna be too low!

Shoot-out for your thought...
'Your light shines on my soul, while a thousand candles burn'. - Endless Sacrifice

Setlist Scotty

Quote from: WardySI on December 04, 2023, 04:23:57 PM
Cannot thank you enough for making this list! Was going be a daunting enough task as was but there's quite a few there I'd forgotten or maybe not even heard before.

The things we do for kicks  :lol

But yes Cheers for this!
Glad to be of help Wardy!   :)
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 13, 2015, 07:37:14 PMAs a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.
Quote from: TAC on July 10, 2024, 08:26:41 AMPOW is awesome! :P

Puppies_On_Acid

Going through the discography for this and I'm realizing Raw Dog is way better than I remember. :corn
Quote from: Evermind on May 06, 2024, 07:39:06 AMHey Stadler, your inbox is full.
Quote from: ReaperKK on August 29, 2024, 06:42:26 PMthat distractingly handsome son of a bitch is gonna make it hard
Quote from: Drunk TACThes sng is are sounds rally nece an I lyke tha sungar

jammindude

In going through this, the Astonishing songs are the ones I'm having to revisit more often because I'm just not as familiar with those songs and I want to listen to them with a fresh ear to make sure I'm making an accurate judgement.

It's really striking to me how literally ambivalent I am about everything on this album. Every time I relisten to a song, I can't help but be emotionally moved by how beautiful some of the bits are, but also how much they don't really make a proper song in most cases. It's like the album focuses more on the narrative than creating a song you can listen to on its own.  I really WANT to like this album more than I do. There are moments that take my breath away...they just don't last long most of the time.

Out of 34 tracks, I'd say there's only about a half dozen or so standalone "songs". But it's all very beautiful in its own way.

nobloodyname

Quote from: twosuitsluke on December 05, 2023, 12:28:53 PM
Thought of the day (getting close to finishing my ranking), wherever Illumination Theory ranks, it's gonna be too low!

I think exactly the same as you except the other way around :biggrin:

twosuitsluke

Quote from: King Puppies and the Acid Guppies on December 06, 2023, 10:32:32 PM
Going through the discography for this and I'm realizing Raw Dog is way better than I remember. :corn

Always was
Quote from: ariich on November 07, 2023, 12:38:53 PMJust popping in to say Luke, you were right.
Quote from: ariich09/07/2023, 14:25:10
luke: Pokemon – Pokemon Theme That was the best! I like Pokemon and I liked the characters. I think there was all of them. It was cool. [Have you heard that song before?] No! Score: 10 trillion

Wim Kruithof

Quote from: jammindude on December 06, 2023, 10:42:05 PM
In going through this, the Astonishing songs are the ones I'm having to revisit more often because I'm just not as familiar with those songs and I want to listen to them with a fresh ear to make sure I'm making an accurate judgement.

It's really striking to me how literally ambivalent I am about everything on this album. Every time I relisten to a song, I can't help but be emotionally moved by how beautiful some of the bits are, but also how much they don't really make a proper song in most cases. It's like the album focuses more on the narrative than creating a song you can listen to on its own.  I really WANT to like this album more than I do. There are moments that take my breath away...they just don't last long most of the time.

Out of 34 tracks, I'd say there's only about a half dozen or so standalone "songs". But it's all very beautiful in its own way.

This is a very well wrapped analysis of the album itself. I feel the same, but I do know it pretty well, 'cause I've spend hours and hours on it. But only a couple of songs eventually made my list. The narrative is leading and some songs - although fermly short - switch that much in the few minutes that it's hard to consider a whole. Like A Savior In the Square for example. Beautiful Killing-Hand-like intro, but then on the square it's way off base. And that happens a lot. As stand-alones they all fade in this gorgious discography, but as a conceptalbum, to me it's very valuable.
'Your light shines on my soul, while a thousand candles burn'. - Endless Sacrifice

jingle.boy

Quote from: King Puppies and the Acid Guppies on December 06, 2023, 10:32:32 PM
Going through the discography for this and I'm realizing Raw Dog is way better than I remember. :corn

It could be a hundred times better... but 100x0 is still zero.
Quote from: Jamesman42 on September 20, 2024, 12:38:03 PM
Quote from: TAC on September 19, 2024, 05:23:01 PMHow is this even possible? Are we playing or what, people??
So I just checked, and, uh, you are one of the two who haven't sent.
Quote from: Puppies_On_Acid on September 20, 2024, 12:46:33 PMTim's roulette police card is hereby revoked!

Stadler

Quote from: jammindude on December 06, 2023, 10:42:05 PM
In going through this, the Astonishing songs are the ones I'm having to revisit more often because I'm just not as familiar with those songs and I want to listen to them with a fresh ear to make sure I'm making an accurate judgement.

It's really striking to me how literally ambivalent I am about everything on this album. Every time I relisten to a song, I can't help but be emotionally moved by how beautiful some of the bits are, but also how much they don't really make a proper song in most cases. It's like the album focuses more on the narrative than creating a song you can listen to on its own.  I really WANT to like this album more than I do. There are moments that take my breath away...they just don't last long most of the time.

Out of 34 tracks, I'd say there's only about a half dozen or so standalone "songs". But it's all very beautiful in its own way.

I'm in a similar place with that record. 

TAC

Quote from: Stadler on December 07, 2023, 05:46:57 AM
Quote from: jammindude on December 06, 2023, 10:42:05 PM
In going through this, the Astonishing songs are the ones I'm having to revisit more often because I'm just not as familiar with those songs and I want to listen to them with a fresh ear to make sure I'm making an accurate judgement.

It's really striking to me how literally ambivalent I am about everything on this album. Every time I relisten to a song, I can't help but be emotionally moved by how beautiful some of the bits are, but also how much they don't really make a proper song in most cases. It's like the album focuses more on the narrative than creating a song you can listen to on its own.  I really WANT to like this album more than I do. There are moments that take my breath away...they just don't last long most of the time.

Out of 34 tracks, I'd say there's only about a half dozen or so standalone "songs". But it's all very beautiful in its own way.

I'm in a similar place with that record.

It's a legit position for sure, but man, there are so many amazing moments on the album that I really wished they'd have developed a bit more than moving quickly to the next part of the narrative. I made an Astonishing Abridged version that I'd put up against anything in their catalog.
I think that's actually a good way to break down an album like that. My Abridged is 16 songs and runs 73 minutes. And I love all of it.
Quote from: wkiml on June 08, 2012, 09:06:35 AMwould have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Quote from: Zydar on November 09, 2024, 08:20:58 AMTAC are all puns blazing today.

MirrorMask

I too did an abridged version, I reckon it was longer than that, but still cutting out some (to me) non essential passages I got a much stronger and concise album.

It should have really been three discs and three acts:

Act 1 from the beginning to Three Days
Act 2 from The Hovering Sojourn to the end of Disc 1
Act 3 is Disc 2

They're more or less the same running time, and putting in a thrid disc allows for A New Beginnng to go on without having to be cut at the end.

jammindude

Quote from: MirrorMask on December 07, 2023, 06:09:28 AM
I too did an abridged version, I reckon it was longer than that, but still cutting out some (to me) non essential passages I got a much stronger and concise album.

It should have really been three discs and three acts:

Act 1 from the beginning to Three Days
Act 2 from The Hovering Sojourn to the end of Disc 1
Act 3 is Disc 2

They're more or less the same running time, and putting in a thrid disc allows for A New Beginnng to go on without having to be cut at the end.

I've said for a long time that it sounds like a 3-disc idea that got abridged down to 2 discs. Too many of the ideas feel only partially developed. If all those beautiful bits had become fully realized songs, it would have been better. Probably would have been 3 hours long, but 3 hours of great is better than 2 1/2 hours of unfinished ideas.

Indiscipline

Quote from: jammindude on December 07, 2023, 06:38:48 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on December 07, 2023, 06:09:28 AM
I too did an abridged version, I reckon it was longer than that, but still cutting out some (to me) non essential passages I got a much stronger and concise album.

It should have really been three discs and three acts:

Act 1 from the beginning to Three Days
Act 2 from The Hovering Sojourn to the end of Disc 1
Act 3 is Disc 2

They're more or less the same running time, and putting in a thrid disc allows for A New Beginnng to go on without having to be cut at the end.

I've said for a long time that it sounds like a 3-disc idea that got abridged down to 2 discs. Too many of the ideas feel only partially developed. If all those beautiful bits had become fully realized songs, it would have been better. Probably would have been 3 hours long, but 3 hours of great is better than 2 1/2 hours of unfinished ideas.

Nailed It. They probably planned a musical but chose/ had to compromise with a sustainable live show length.

Top 3 DT album.

Lonk

Quote from: jammindude on December 07, 2023, 06:38:48 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on December 07, 2023, 06:09:28 AM
I too did an abridged version, I reckon it was longer than that, but still cutting out some (to me) non essential passages I got a much stronger and concise album.

It should have really been three discs and three acts:

Act 1 from the beginning to Three Days
Act 2 from The Hovering Sojourn to the end of Disc 1
Act 3 is Disc 2

They're more or less the same running time, and putting in a thrid disc allows for A New Beginnng to go on without having to be cut at the end.

I've said for a long time that it sounds like a 3-disc idea that got abridged down to 2 discs. Too many of the ideas feel only partially developed. If all those beautiful bits had become fully realized songs, it would have been better. Probably would have been 3 hours long, but 3 hours of great is better than 2 1/2 hours of unfinished ideas.

If that was the case, I would've love for them to have done a part. 1, and then release a part 2 with the rest of the materials a few months later.

Coheed and Cambria did something similar (though their stuff was just a little over 80 minutes). They released The Afterman: Ascension on October of 2012. Then in February of 2013 released The Afterman: Descension

Stadler

Quote from: Vmadera00 on December 07, 2023, 07:14:53 AM
Quote from: jammindude on December 07, 2023, 06:38:48 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on December 07, 2023, 06:09:28 AM
I too did an abridged version, I reckon it was longer than that, but still cutting out some (to me) non essential passages I got a much stronger and concise album.

It should have really been three discs and three acts:

Act 1 from the beginning to Three Days
Act 2 from The Hovering Sojourn to the end of Disc 1
Act 3 is Disc 2

They're more or less the same running time, and putting in a thrid disc allows for A New Beginnng to go on without having to be cut at the end.

I've said for a long time that it sounds like a 3-disc idea that got abridged down to 2 discs. Too many of the ideas feel only partially developed. If all those beautiful bits had become fully realized songs, it would have been better. Probably would have been 3 hours long, but 3 hours of great is better than 2 1/2 hours of unfinished ideas.

If that was the case, I would've love for them to have done a part. 1, and then release a part 2 with the rest of the materials a few months later.

Coheed and Cambria did something similar (though their stuff was just a little over 80 minutes). They released The Afterman: Ascension on October of 2012. Then in February of 2013 released The Afterman: Descension

I heard those records were a little up and down, though.


I'll show myself out.....


KevShmev

Quote from: King Puppies and the Acid Guppies on December 06, 2023, 10:32:32 PM
Going through the discography for this and I'm realizing Raw Dog is way better than I remember. :corn

Agreed. It was 158 on my list two years ago, but 154 on my list this time. Okay, maybe not way better, but a little better.

hefdaddy42

Quote from: KevShmev on December 07, 2023, 07:40:01 AM
Quote from: King Puppies and the Acid Guppies on December 06, 2023, 10:32:32 PM
Going through the discography for this and I'm realizing Raw Dog is way better than I remember. :corn

Agreed. It was 158 on my list two years ago, but 154 on my list this time. Okay, maybe not way better, but a little better.
It was last on my list the last time I made one.  It's still last.
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 11, 2014, 08:19:46 PMHef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

TAC

No idea why Raw Dog gets a raw deal, especially with its homage to King Crimson, who I thought was loved around here.
Quote from: wkiml on June 08, 2012, 09:06:35 AMwould have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Quote from: Zydar on November 09, 2024, 08:20:58 AMTAC are all puns blazing today.

KevShmev

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on December 07, 2023, 07:41:15 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on December 07, 2023, 07:40:01 AM
Quote from: King Puppies and the Acid Guppies on December 06, 2023, 10:32:32 PM
Going through the discography for this and I'm realizing Raw Dog is way better than I remember. :corn

Agreed. It was 158 on my list two years ago, but 154 on my list this time. Okay, maybe not way better, but a little better.
It was last on my list the last time I made one.  It's still last.

In other words, it didn't get worse for ya. :lol

hefdaddy42

Quote from: TAC on December 07, 2023, 07:41:38 AM
No idea why Raw Dog gets a raw deal, especially with its homage to King Crimson, who I thought was loved around here.
It's not an homage to King Crimson.  An homage is intentional.  Some of the riffs just sound like something King Crimson may have toyed around with, and then discarded.

IMO

But it doesn't get "a raw deal."  There are just a lot of people who don't like it, while you DO like it.  That doesn't mean it gets a raw deal. 

Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 11, 2014, 08:19:46 PMHef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

TAC

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on December 07, 2023, 08:16:04 AM

But it doesn't get "a raw deal."  There are just a lot of people who don't like it, while you DO like it.  That doesn't mean it gets a raw deal.

:lol

I mean, you're not wrong.
Quote from: wkiml on June 08, 2012, 09:06:35 AMwould have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Quote from: Zydar on November 09, 2024, 08:20:58 AMTAC are all puns blazing today.

twosuitsluke

Quote from: Vmadera00 on December 07, 2023, 07:14:53 AM
Quote from: jammindude on December 07, 2023, 06:38:48 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on December 07, 2023, 06:09:28 AM
I too did an abridged version, I reckon it was longer than that, but still cutting out some (to me) non essential passages I got a much stronger and concise album.

It should have really been three discs and three acts:

Act 1 from the beginning to Three Days
Act 2 from The Hovering Sojourn to the end of Disc 1
Act 3 is Disc 2

They're more or less the same running time, and putting in a thrid disc allows for A New Beginnng to go on without having to be cut at the end.

I've said for a long time that it sounds like a 3-disc idea that got abridged down to 2 discs. Too many of the ideas feel only partially developed. If all those beautiful bits had become fully realized songs, it would have been better. Probably would have been 3 hours long, but 3 hours of great is better than 2 1/2 hours of unfinished ideas.

If that was the case, I would've love for them to have done a part. 1, and then release a part 2 with the rest of the materials a few months later.

Coheed and Cambria did something similar (though their stuff was just a little over 80 minutes). They released The Afterman: Ascension on October of 2012. Then in February of 2013 released The Afterman: Descension

Let's be serious, Dream Theater couldn't do anything as good as Coheed :neverusethis:
Quote from: ariich on November 07, 2023, 12:38:53 PMJust popping in to say Luke, you were right.
Quote from: ariich09/07/2023, 14:25:10
luke: Pokemon – Pokemon Theme That was the best! I like Pokemon and I liked the characters. I think there was all of them. It was cool. [Have you heard that song before?] No! Score: 10 trillion

jingle.boy

I have a ranking of 100 songs.  Everything else is 101.
Quote from: Jamesman42 on September 20, 2024, 12:38:03 PM
Quote from: TAC on September 19, 2024, 05:23:01 PMHow is this even possible? Are we playing or what, people??
So I just checked, and, uh, you are one of the two who haven't sent.
Quote from: Puppies_On_Acid on September 20, 2024, 12:46:33 PMTim's roulette police card is hereby revoked!

hefdaddy42

Quote from: TAC on December 07, 2023, 08:18:21 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on December 07, 2023, 08:16:04 AM

But it doesn't get "a raw deal."  There are just a lot of people who don't like it, while you DO like it.  That doesn't mean it gets a raw deal.

:lol

I mean, you're not wrong.
Don't be so sure.  I have been told that I am wrong no less than 3 times already this week.
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 11, 2014, 08:19:46 PMHef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Stadler

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on December 07, 2023, 08:43:32 AM
Quote from: TAC on December 07, 2023, 08:18:21 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on December 07, 2023, 08:16:04 AM

But it doesn't get "a raw deal."  There are just a lot of people who don't like it, while you DO like it.  That doesn't mean it gets a raw deal.

:lol

I mean, you're not wrong.
Don't be so sure.  I have been told that I am wrong no less than 3 times already this week.

Yeah, but we're not your wife.    :) :) :)

hefdaddy42

Quote from: Stadler on December 07, 2023, 09:45:19 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on December 07, 2023, 08:43:32 AM
Quote from: TAC on December 07, 2023, 08:18:21 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on December 07, 2023, 08:16:04 AM

But it doesn't get "a raw deal."  There are just a lot of people who don't like it, while you DO like it.  That doesn't mean it gets a raw deal.

:lol

I mean, you're not wrong.
Don't be so sure.  I have been told that I am wrong no less than 3 times already this week.

Yeah, but we're not your wife.    :) :) :)
I wasn't counting her  :lol
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 11, 2014, 08:19:46 PMHef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

jingle.boy

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on December 07, 2023, 10:21:56 AM
Quote from: Stadler on December 07, 2023, 09:45:19 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on December 07, 2023, 08:43:32 AM
Quote from: TAC on December 07, 2023, 08:18:21 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on December 07, 2023, 08:16:04 AM

But it doesn't get "a raw deal."  There are just a lot of people who don't like it, while you DO like it.  That doesn't mean it gets a raw deal.

:lol

I mean, you're not wrong.
Don't be so sure.  I have been told that I am wrong no less than 3 times already this week.

Yeah, but we're not your wife.    :) :) :)
I wasn't counting her  :lol

Counting my wife, I was told 3 times before lunch I was wrong!
Quote from: Jamesman42 on September 20, 2024, 12:38:03 PM
Quote from: TAC on September 19, 2024, 05:23:01 PMHow is this even possible? Are we playing or what, people??
So I just checked, and, uh, you are one of the two who haven't sent.
Quote from: Puppies_On_Acid on September 20, 2024, 12:46:33 PMTim's roulette police card is hereby revoked!

Stadler

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on December 07, 2023, 10:21:56 AM
Quote from: Stadler on December 07, 2023, 09:45:19 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on December 07, 2023, 08:43:32 AM
Quote from: TAC on December 07, 2023, 08:18:21 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on December 07, 2023, 08:16:04 AM

But it doesn't get "a raw deal."  There are just a lot of people who don't like it, while you DO like it.  That doesn't mean it gets a raw deal.

:lol

I mean, you're not wrong.
Don't be so sure.  I have been told that I am wrong no less than 3 times already this week.

Yeah, but we're not your wife.    :) :) :)
I wasn't counting her  :lol

Oh shit....